Author Topic: MP Response to fire - Split from First infantry regular force female LCol.  (Read 21136 times)

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Offline MedCorps

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She was a VanDoo when she was promoted major in 2007.

She was a Major in R22eR in 2014 when she had a Courts Martial.
http://decisia.jmc-cmj.forces.gc.ca/jmc-cmj/cm/en/item/98921/index.do?r=AAAAAQAIV2VsbHdvb2QB

Interesting case.  Nice to see that the reprimand did not affect her career.

I have crossed paths with LCol Wellwood on a number of occasions over the past 15 years and she is a good person and will do a great job as a LCol. The RCIC is lucky to have her.

MC
« Last Edit: January 28, 2016, 10:37:25 by Mike Bobbitt »

Offline Sheep Dog AT

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Re: Re: First infantry regular force female LCol.
« Reply #1 on: January 26, 2016, 00:25:17 »
I wonder why the MP wasn't charged with assault.
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Offline Brihard

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Re: Re: First infantry regular force female LCol.
« Reply #2 on: January 26, 2016, 00:39:06 »
I wonder why the MP wasn't charged with assault.

Lawful use of force to overcome obstruction of the conduct of his duties, maybe?
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Offline Pusser

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Re: Re: First infantry regular force female LCol.
« Reply #3 on: January 26, 2016, 04:58:17 »
Lawful use of force to overcome obstruction of the conduct of his duties, maybe?

Tenuous.  The MP was out of line - the Judge even said so.  I would like to think the MP's chain of command dealt with this appropriately.

Reminds me of a similar experience of my own a few years ago when an MP drove through a gate he shouldn't have to conduct an "investigation" he was unqualified to do.  I insisted he leave immediately (which he did) and his chain of command dealt with it.

Now, to get back on track:  Congratulations to the new LCol!  :salute:
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Offline ExRCDcpl

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Re: Re: First infantry regular force female LCol.
« Reply #4 on: January 26, 2016, 17:00:39 »
Tenuous.  The MP was out of line - the Judge even said so.  I would like to think the MP's chain of command dealt with this appropriately.

Reminds me of a similar experience of my own a few years ago when an MP drove through a gate he shouldn't have to conduct an "investigation" he was unqualified to do.  I insisted he leave immediately (which he did) and his chain of command dealt with it.

Now, to get back on track:  Congratulations to the new LCol!  :salute:

She was equally out of line and frankly I'd expect a bit more maturity from a major.

As for the MP not being qualified to investigate......so you decide what police officers are qualified to investigate what?

Back on track....if she was the most qualified for the promotion then well done to her....nice to see a pioneer in this day and age.

Offline Sheep Dog AT

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Re: Re: First infantry regular force female LCol.
« Reply #5 on: January 26, 2016, 19:07:28 »
She was equally out of line and frankly I'd expect a bit more maturity from a major.

As for the MP not being qualified to investigate......so you decide what police officers are qualified to investigate what?

Back on track....if she was the most qualified for the promotion then well done to her....nice to see a pioneer in this day and age.

I'm sure he has information to back up his claim.
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Offline ExRCDcpl

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Re: Re: First infantry regular force female LCol.
« Reply #6 on: January 26, 2016, 20:18:59 »
I'm sure he has information to back up his claim.

I'm sure he doesn't.....while I'm not disputing whether or not the MP was in the right or wrong as I wasn't there....I will dispute his claim the MP was not qualified to investigate.  MPs are the police....police investigate crimes, and nobody save for a higher ranking police officer, tells a police officer what he can or cannot investigate.

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Re: Re: First infantry regular force female LCol.
« Reply #7 on: January 26, 2016, 20:27:54 »
Perhaps if he's inclined he can further elaborate
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Offline quadrapiper

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Re: Re: First infantry regular force female LCol.
« Reply #8 on: January 27, 2016, 00:54:22 »
I'm sure he doesn't.....while I'm not disputing whether or not the MP was in the right or wrong as I wasn't there....I will dispute his claim the MP was not qualified to investigate.  MPs are the police....police investigate crimes, and nobody save for a higher ranking police officer, tells a police officer what he can or cannot investigate.
Wild guess is it had something to do with clearances not held by the MP.

Offline Pusser

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Re: Re: First infantry regular force female LCol.
« Reply #9 on: January 27, 2016, 04:27:13 »
I'm sure he doesn't.....while I'm not disputing whether or not the MP was in the right or wrong as I wasn't there....I will dispute his claim the MP was not qualified to investigate.  MPs are the police....police investigate crimes, and nobody save for a higher ranking police officer, tells a police officer what he can or cannot investigate.

There was no crime.  It was actually a fire.  The MP breezed through the gate without authority and ended up in a dangerous place with an unauthorized radio and unauthorized weapons.  He was a danger to himself and everyone else.  Appropriate technical authorities conducted the investigation.
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Offline ExRCDcpl

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Re: Re: First infantry regular force female LCol.
« Reply #10 on: January 27, 2016, 07:16:48 »
There was no crime.  It was actually a fire.  The MP breezed through the gate without authority and ended up in a dangerous place with an unauthorized radio and unauthorized weapons.  He was a danger to himself and everyone else.  Appropriate technical authorities conducted the investigation.

I retract my statement....that guy sounds like a doorknob.

Offline George Wallace

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Re: MP Oppsy
« Reply #11 on: January 27, 2016, 09:03:06 »
I retract my statement....that guy sounds like a doorknob.

In all honesty, many of us have met such "Cowboys" representing the MP Trade, and it has been those few who have given the whole Trade the rep they have (like the bad apples whom give any Trade or organization a bad name). 
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Offline dapaterson

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Re: MP Oppsy - Split from First infantry regular force female LCol.
« Reply #12 on: January 27, 2016, 11:34:49 »
To be fair, I've met doorknobs in every trade and occupation.  And some mornings, reflecting on things I've done, I've seen a pretty glaring one in the mirror...
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Offline ballz

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Re: Re: First infantry regular force female LCol.
« Reply #13 on: January 27, 2016, 20:47:03 »
Lawful use of force to overcome obstruction of the conduct of his duties, maybe?

Wouldn't he have to detain her in some fashion to use force? If she wasn't detained she was as free to walk into her own CP as anyone else was. If she wasn't detained, and wasn't resisting arrest, use of force doesn't seem lawful?
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Offline Not a Sig Op

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Re: MP Oppsy - Split from First infantry regular force female LCol.
« Reply #14 on: January 27, 2016, 21:00:39 »
I lost all respect for and patience with meatheads (And that's a deliberately chosen insult) when I had one physically push me out of the way... apparently she needed to get a "statement"...

Said meathead wasn't too good with the whole situational awareness thing, because until she shoved me out of the way, I had been doing c-spine support for a soldier who'd been knocked unconscious... at the direction of the paramedics who were checking the soldier over and getting the spine board ready to load her into the ambulance...

Meathead never did get her statement, given the troop was unconscious... and taken to the hospital prior to regaining consciousness...

Given that there was no "crime" committed (Individual had been struck by a mod purlong while loading a truck, three stooges style), and no one called the damned MPs, and given that she had potentially endangered the life of the soldier, I wanted to take this up with her chain of command... my chain of command told me to "drop it".

Five years later, still pissed off about the incident.
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Re: MP Oppsy - Split from First infantry regular force female LCol.
« Reply #15 on: January 27, 2016, 21:40:16 »
Again I think it's not fair to judge them all the same (not trying to suggest anyone is). I know they're are iggnorant Ammo techs and awesome ones. Same goes with MPs. I have one respond to a pn alarm in the compound lights going and didn't even have the where withall to stop at the admin building which you must pass to go into the compound to see where said alarm was occurring. Instead he drove around wasting his time for 10 before coming back to find out where the mag was.

Had another one pull me over for rolling through a stop sign but had no idea about what paperwork I needed to provide him since his previous posting was ON which is slightly diff then MB and he just arrived recently. Needless to say a call to his boss resulted in me given a warning and him going back to talk with his boss.

I also had an MP pull me over for burned out head lights. I told him I was going to Wpg to the dealer (none in Brandon) so he let me go without a ticket.
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Re: MP Oppsy - Split from First infantry regular force female LCol.
« Reply #16 on: January 27, 2016, 21:45:07 »
Do not think this is a MP bashing thread. If you can't be civil, don't post. Rule infractions will result in warnings or worse.

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Offline ExRCDcpl

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Re: Re: First infantry regular force female LCol.
« Reply #17 on: January 27, 2016, 22:20:35 »
Wouldn't he have to detain her in some fashion to use force? If she wasn't detained she was as free to walk into her own CP as anyone else was. If she wasn't detained, and wasn't resisting arrest, use of force doesn't seem lawful?

No a person does not need to be detained or under arrest for a police officer to use force.  It's quite common for me to be called to the bar/residence/wherever and forcefully remove an unwanted person.  As soon as they are out the door if they settle down they are normally free to go at that point.

From reading that case law the issue doesn't seem to be her walking into the CP; the issue was her telling everyone else not to co-operate.....which is obstruction.  The fact of the matter is regardless how anyone thinks the MP acted (I will agree the comment was stupid) the MP was in the right and this was supported by the finding of guilt beyond a reasonable doubt by a judge.

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Re: Re: First infantry regular force female LCol.
« Reply #18 on: January 27, 2016, 23:17:27 »
The fact of the matter is regardless how anyone thinks the MP acted (I will agree the comment was stupid) the MP was in the right and this was supported by the finding of guilt beyond a reasonable doubt by a judge.

Well that same judge stated [para 8 in transcript]
Quote
....the peace officer behaved in a manner that I find to be absolutely unacceptable for a representative of the law, civilian or military. In a military context, it matters little that those with peace officer powers are not subordinates, except by their rank, as the case may be, of Forces members, who are the subjects of their day-to-day duties. They are still Forces members and are themselves subject to the duties and obligations incumbent on Canadian Forces members with regard to respect towards both subordinates in rank and superior officers.
The judge didn't appear to have any reasonable doubts in that statement.  Defend who you will.

Offline ExRCDcpl

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Re: MP Oppsy - Split from First infantry regular force female LCol.
« Reply #19 on: January 27, 2016, 23:36:07 »
Your point being what?  I never said the MP acted professionally......but obviously he did not step outside the boundaries of the law and his decision to recommend charges was correct as was demonstrated by the Major being found guilty.

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Re: MP Oppsy - Split from First infantry regular force female LCol.
« Reply #20 on: January 27, 2016, 23:41:52 »
Your point being what? 
You specifically made a point of saying "regardless how anyone thinks the MP acted."

I stated only that the judge believed the "peace officer behaved in a manner that I find to be absolutely unacceptable for a representative of the law."

It was posted in response to your statement.  No discussion required.




Offline ExRCDcpl

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Re: MP Oppsy - Split from First infantry regular force female LCol.
« Reply #21 on: January 28, 2016, 00:16:29 »
You specifically made a point of saying "regardless how anyone thinks the MP acted."

I stated only that the judge believed the "peace officer behaved in a manner that I find to be absolutely unacceptable for a representative of the law."

It was posted in response to your statement.  No discussion required.

So you're only going to use half of the sentence I said and out of context at that?  Ok then...guess discussion is over.

Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: MP Oppsy - Split from First infantry regular force female LCol.
« Reply #22 on: January 28, 2016, 02:18:16 »
From reading that case law the issue doesn't seem to be her walking into the CP; the issue was her telling everyone else not to co-operate.....which is obstruction.

But, reading the decision, that didn't actually happen.  Quote directly from the decision:

Quote
The acrimonious exchanges continued between them, and the peace officer pushed Major Wellwood with his hands at chest level to prevent her from telling her subordinates not to assist him in his investigation, or at least so the police officer thought.

Reading thru the decision, I noted the following:

Quote
Major Ellwood told the peace officer that this was not a Military Police matter and that the member in question was not at CP8.

So, the MP was aware at that time, from a Senior Officer in the CAF, that the member he was ordered to locate and protect [two members of the military police, posted to the Beauce area for the duration of the exercise in a traditional role of police and peace officer, being ordered to find the individual and take appropriate measures to ensure his safety] wasn't at the location he was at.

So, why the need for this then?

Quote
the peace officer pushed Major Wellwood with his hands at chest level

According to the facts laid out in the decision, the answer is this.

Quote
to prevent her from telling her subordinates not to assist him in his investigation, or at least so the police officer thought.

I find that pretty weak.  The MP knew the person he was looking for was not inside the CP.  I am no law professor, but I think there should have been 2 people charged out of this one, the 2nd one being the MP who crossed the line IMO.  I know, I'm no judge but I wouldn't have batted an eye if I found out the MP was charged with STRIKING OR OFFERING VIOLENCE TO A SUPERIOR OFFICER.  Reading 'to notes', there is no exclusion for MP NCMs WRT this charge, as they are military police, and also subj to the CSD.

From the decision:

Quote
In a military context, it matters little that those with peace officer powers are not subordinates, except by their rank, as the case may be, of Forces members, who are the subjects of their day-to-day duties. They are still Forces members and are themselves subject to the duties and obligations incumbent on Canadian Forces members with regard to respect towards both subordinates in rank and superior officers.

Quote
However, this cannot be used as an excuse by Major Wellwood, an experienced officer, for her behaviour towards the peace officer. There can be no doubt that she reacted hastily and disproportionately. She showed a lack of judgment and self-control. I agree with the prosecution that her role required her to take a co-operative approach rather than to contribute to a confrontation that did nothing to resolve the situation. She had a duty to act with respect and professionalism. That is not what she did. As a superior officer and commanding officer, she too had a duty to respect the peace officers who were carrying out their duties and to not act in a way that undermined the legitimate respect that the persons mandated by law to protect persons and property in our civilian and military society deserve.

This could have as easily read:

Quote
However, this cannot be used as an excuse by Major Wellwood the MP , an experienced officer a CF NCM and peace officer, for her his behaviour towards the peace officer SNr Officer. There can be no doubt that she reacted hastily and disproportionately. She showed a lack of judgment and self-control. I agree with the prosecution defence that her his role required her him to take a co-operative approach rather than to contribute to a confrontation that did nothing to resolve the situation. She He had a duty to act with respect and professionalism. That is not what she he did. As a superior peace officer and commanding officer Non-commissioned member, she too had a duty to respect the peace superior officers who were carrying out their duties and to not act in a way that undermined the legitimate respect that the persons CAF members mandated by law the NDA to protect persons and property in our civilian and military society deserve under their lawful command.

I think both the MP and the Maj would have reacted differently if either or both of them would have taken 3 seconds to step back and breathe deep.  I don't see anything the Major did as warranting the MP to push her;  he'd already been informed the person he was looking for wasn't at CP8.

I think the "I thought she was going to order her subordinates to not help me so I pushed her" explanation was about as lame and desperate as it appears.  An 'after the fact, damn I screwed up there' grab at something to justify pushing a female Senior Officer to the ground in front of witnesses.  Pretty lame IMO.   ::)

An opinion from the cheap seats.  :2c:

« Last Edit: January 28, 2016, 03:05:37 by Eye In The Sky »
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Offline Pusser

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Re: MP Oppsy - Split from First infantry regular force female LCol.
« Reply #23 on: January 28, 2016, 05:12:44 »
To be fair, I've met doorknobs in every trade and occupation.  And some mornings, reflecting on things I've done, I've seen a pretty glaring one in the mirror...

Agreed. I can say the same thing.
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Offline Pusser

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Re: MP Oppsy - Split from First infantry regular force female LCol.
« Reply #24 on: January 28, 2016, 05:26:42 »
I think the "I thought she was going to order her subordinates to not help me so I pushed her" explanation was about as lame and desperate as it appears.  An 'after the fact, damn I screwed up there' grab at something to justify pushing a female Senior Officer to the ground in front of witnesses.  Pretty lame IMO.   ::)

I think her gender is irrelevant.  Pushing anyone under those circumstances is inappropriate.  I wonder though whether he would have been inclined to get physical with a 6'2", 250lb male senior officer?

I'm also not convinced that this MP necessarily got off scot-free.  I would like to think that were some repercussions.
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