Author Topic: How to do PRes Recruiting (split from:Militia role, capabilities, structure, and Regimental System)  (Read 3705 times)

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Offline Journeyman

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Quote from: milnews.ca on Today at 07:20:18
One option shared with Senators this week ...

Quote
.....challenges in meeting recruiting quotas.

Selkirk told the Senate security and defence committee that recruiting officers spend most of their time convincing people to join the regular force and those who only want part-time service have to jump through bureaucratic hoops.
That's a polite way of saying CFRG can take a year (+) to get someone to the enrollment stage.  Most rational people will say, "for part-time employment? Get stuffed!"

Quote
Many recruiting centres keep business hours and those interested in being reservists have jobs and cannot make it there while the places are open, he said.
Ri-iiight.  That's  the stumbling block.     :not-again:

Offline Remius

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Quote from: milnews.ca on Today at 07:20:18
One option shared with Senators this week ...
That's a polite way of saying CFRG can take a year (+) to get someone to the enrollment stage.  Most rational people will say, "for part-time employment? Get stuffed!"
Ri-iiight.  That's  the stumbling block.     :not-again:

Well, when I worked at CFRC, business hours was an issue.  Not the only one mind you but it was a stumbling block for people and added to the overall length of time for processing.  We had modified hours but only slightly, and only one night a week and not past 18:00 (difficult for outlying areas we serviced).  I know reserve units have info nights and parade nights where people can come get info and get started but processing is a day thing in most places. 
Optio

Offline dapaterson

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To be fair, CFRC opening hours is an issue for Reg F applicants as well - do we want acheivers who are already employed and looking for a challenge and a career change for who an evening or Saturday would be more convenient to apply, or do we only want the chronically unemployed and unemployable to enrol?
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Offline Journeyman

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Well, when I worked at CFRC, business hours was an issue. 
Disclosure: I'm not in recruiting.

The overwhelming number of pers I've seen coming through the Armouries door are students; they seem to have no heartache skipping school to jump through the numerous hoops.  Yet, it can still take +/- a year to get them on a BMQ.

When asking higher, officially and unofficially, I see CFRG, CMP, CDA MilPersGen (changing sign and letterhead has made them so  much more efficient  ::) ) sit in a circle-jerk pointing their fingers at one another -- apparently absolutely no one has responsibility for this problem.

Maybe firing people would get folks' attention.  <--- this applies to several never-ending CAF problems.

Offline Remius

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You aren't wrong.  Reserve recruiting is not a priority.  For the most part CFRG (at least when i was there) saw it as a hassle.  Yet they would be the first ones to try and put all sorts of rules in place for reserve recruiting.  The best solution would just be to have reserve recruiting ressources seperate.  Oh wait, most of CFRG is class B...
Optio

Offline Rifleman62

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Well this is old news. We have been hearing this since CFRG took over PRes recruiting.

IMHO, CFRC has proved, over the years, it cannot do the task. Why reinforce failure?

My opinion is based on experience as a CBG G1 and on the receiving end in several units.

Get rid of CFRG, and out source to a private company that must hire Vets, especially visually wounded Vets so potential recruits will know what they possibly may be in for.

At the same time fold up VAC. At least take all of VAC employees after a bit of self preservation training on a deployment or to WX for a week + or so. The adjudicators come to mind as a first step.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2016, 10:26:41 by Rifleman62 »
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Offline Journeyman

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.... that must hire Vets, especially visually wounded Vets .....
  "Mobile Infantry made me what I am today."


Trucks and radios and people with boots and mukluks.
We're screwed.

Offline recceguy

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Business hours do matter. I'll use myself as an example.

When I rejoined the Reserves in '91 I had a hell of a time making it to the RC because of my work hours. I had my final interview, but had to convince my Recruiting Officer to stay an extra half hour, so I could get there.

Years later, I was reviewing my Pers file and saw the interview results.

The guy wrote two paragraphs about my disheveled appearance of my work clothes, the fact that I was dirty and after the great pains he took accommodating me, I hadn't appeared in a jacket and tie. According to him, I wasn't capable of time management or setting priorities. My interview lasted 10 minutes.

If it had not been for the intervention of people in Brigade, this officer would have denied me. Even though I had a previous 15 years in the trade I was going into.
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Offline RCPalmer

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I would be cautious about the use of an external agency to solve our intake problems for us.  Such a contractor would have a mandate to execute a process, and if we hand them a bad process, I have no expectation they would do better.  Unfortunately, several key aspects of the process (most notably medical and Reliability Status/foreign implications) are owned outside of CFRG. 

The British tried this with their reserve recruiting, contracting Capita for its applicant processing.  So far, they have not been happy with the results:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/capita-makes-100m-in-army-recruitment-fiasco-9563829.html
 
The real issue here is that we need commanders at the right levels to "ride herd" and inject common sense into this process wherever there are issues.  If this was a priority for the CAF as a whole, it wouldn't be a problem.  For example, a commander at the right level (likely the CDS, but perhaps CMP) could order Health Services to simplify the recruit medical process.  The security piece is harder.  Ultimately, I think it would be up to the CDS and the DM to make the case with the relevant agencies of our unique requirements as it pertains to the Government Security Policy.

The CDS has set the standard in the initiating directive for the revitalization of the Reserve Force which is applicant processing in 60-90 days.  My understanding is that a service level agreement is in the works to hold CFRG (and by extension CMP) accountable to that goal.  To achieve that goal, the general processing of most applicants will have to be faster than that, more like 30 days.  That way, there is some cushion to address the outliers. This is a significant change.  For example, I just crunched some numbers for my unit.  Our average processing time for soldiers enrolled in 2015 was 5.9 months, with the slowest being 11 months and the fastest 3.  My assessment is that achieving the 60-90 day goal would be primarily a question of resourcing and prioritization.  By all accounts, the CDS will hold CMP's feet to the fire on this, and hopefully this will produce some results.

If the process were to be completely revisited and significantly simplified, I could see some benefit in moving the applicant processing responsibility into the Army, or perhaps a civilian contractor who could put some relatively untrained muscle behind the problem.  However, if we leaving the process more or less as it is, which requires a lot of corporate knowledge to navigate very nuanced and complex processes, I think we are better off to leave it with CFRG. 
« Last Edit: February 23, 2016, 15:52:30 by RCPalmer »

Offline RocketRichard

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In the process of re enrolling in the PRes. Started ball rolling in April 2015. Standing by. It's a long process, quite a bit longer than getting into the reg force and the naval reserve the last two times.

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The CDS has set the standard in the initiating directive for the revitalization of the Reserve Force which is applicant processing in 60-90 days.  My understanding is that a service level agreement is in the works to hold CFRG (and by extension CMP) accountable to that goal. 
   I'm from Missouri...     :pop:



Of course, it also begs the question, if the CDS has set a standard, then why is there an agreement "in the works."  When did CDS direction become the first step in a negotiating process?   ::)

Offline dapaterson

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Some items are outside CDS direct control.   And if fixing will cost any significant amount,  then the CDS  will have to consider the tradeoffs.
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Offline RCPalmer

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   I'm from Missouri...     :pop:



Of course, it also begs the question, if the CDS has set a standard, then why is there an agreement "in the works."  When did CDS direction become the first step in a negotiating process?   ::)

It is definitely moving slower than I would like, and I am of course standing by for the plan to fall on its face. This isn't my first day.  :)

I would think of the Service Level Agreement as the responsible parties (the Army and CFRG) conducting coordination as part of lower level battle procedure to make the CDS direction real.  There seems to be a lot of talk in the Army about taking over recruiting because "we could do it better".  My point here is that unless the process is fixed at a higher level, I don't think we would do much better.

Offline ueo

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In the late 80's early 90's, before all the computerese, centralization. TQL, TQM etc invaded the recruiting system, CFRC's and their Dets were local entities and hours of work were decided twixt the CO and the serviced PRes units. A unit would attract a potential applicant on a parade night,  forward the file to the local Cen/Det who would process the applicant on a two day turn around. The only delays were in medical approvals but that was mitigated by having "clean" applicants offered positions and using courier services to get the file to the regional medical approving authority on a quick turn around. Even complex cases, minus those requiring additional med tests, were usually approved in less than 14 days. Why, now, does it take in excess of 9 months for part time employment? MacDonalds takes about 20 minutes and applicants vote with their feet. Yes, I was a recruiter and a detachment commander then. :2c:
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Offline DAA

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Recruiting Detachments are neither mandated nor funded to provide support to PRes Recruiting efforts.  Anything they currently do provide, is done so on a "space available" basis only.
Got a question that you're afraid to ask online?  PM me!  I don't bite........

Offline recceguy

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In the late 80's early 90's, before all the computerese, centralization. TQL, TQM etc invaded the recruiting system, CFRC's and their Dets were local entities and hours of work were decided twixt the CO and the serviced PRes units. A unit would attract a potential applicant on a parade night,  forward the file to the local Cen/Det who would process the applicant on a two day turn around. The only delays were in medical approvals but that was mitigated by having "clean" applicants offered positions and using courier services to get the file to the regional medical approving authority on a quick turn around. Even complex cases, minus those requiring additional med tests, were usually approved in less than 14 days. Why, now, does it take in excess of 9 months for part time employment? MacDonalds takes about 20 minutes and applicants vote with their feet. Yes, I was a recruiter and a detachment commander then. :2c:

.........and prior to that was the simplest, most economical and fastest system.

Units recruited on their own, did the paperwork themselves, sent the recruit to the local contracted Doctor, swore them in and kitted them out. Typically, within a week.

Things didn't get ****ed up until Ottawa and the CFRC became involved.

It wasn't broke then and there's no reason they can't do it now.
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Offline ModlrMike

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I have a young lady at work who wanted to join 17 Fd Amb. She was told to expect two years before she was in uniform. I brought her down to CHW and had her parading in full kit in one month.

So, we can recruit quickly if we want to. We have to identify the bottlenecks and become more agile. Part timers are not going to join if it takes two years to get in.

Perhaps we need a trade in the Trg Dev branch for NCOs to remuster into... something like Recruiter. We can get them qualified as HR specialists and let them loose on the public. Give them wide latitude on the processing of files. One challenge of course will be the inherent non-deployable nature of the trade, but sometimes we have to make accommodations...
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Offline George Wallace

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I have a young lady at work who wanted to join 17 Fd Amb. She was told to expect two years before she was in uniform. I brought her down to CHW and had her parading in full kit in one month.

So, we can recruit quickly if we want to. We have to identify the bottlenecks and become more agile. Part timers are not going to join if it takes two years to get in.

Perhaps we need a trade in the Trg Dev branch for NCOs to remuster into... something like Recruiter. We can get them qualified as HR specialists and let them loose on the public. Give them wide latitude on the processing of files. One challenge of course will be the inherent non-deployable nature of the trade, but sometimes we have to make accommodations...

The CAFRG does run Recruiter Courses for both Reg and Reserve candidates.  I attended a Reserve orientated one in Connaught run by the local CAFRC, and then attended the CAFRG combined one in Borden/Barrie a year or two later.  Many of the staff at CAFRCs are PRes.  Having qualified Reservists as Recruiters is not the problem, as much as the sluggishness of the whole system, and the various timings to meet "Priorities" such as ROTP selection that shut down or slow all other recruiting to a snails pace.  Add in the factor that we now do much more detailed security checks than we did pre-digital age; not to mention the contracting out of services to civilian contractors.
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Offline runormal

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The CAFRG does run Recruiter Courses for both Reg and Reserve candidates.  I attended a Reserve orientated one in Connaught run by the local CAFRC, and then attended the CAFRG combined one in Borden/Barrie a year or two later.  Many of the staff at CAFRCs are PRes.  Having qualified Reservists as Recruiters is not the problem, as much as the sluggishness of the whole system, and the various timings to meet "Priorities" such as ROTP selection that shut down or slow all other recruiting to a snails pace.  Add in the factor that we now do much more detailed security checks than we did pre-digital age; not to mention the contracting out of services to civilian contractors.

Recruiting Detachments are neither mandated nor funded to provide support to PRes Recruiting efforts.  Anything they currently do provide, is done so on a "space available" basis only.

I think that right there is the problem, ROTP. ROTP processing is what late October to late March? When is the majority of potential recruits in town? Sept-April. As a student when do I realize I need more money in the school year? After October, maybe the end of the first semester. frig it, I can't wait months for a part time job, I'll wait tables, wash dishes, work at retail/fastfood xyz. Summer rolls around I'm either taking more courses, already have a job lined up back home and the cycle continues.

Why, now, does it take in excess of 9 months for part time employment? MacDonalds takes about 20 minutes and applicants vote with their feet. Yes, I was a recruiter and a detachment commander then. :2c:

I know nothing of the reserve recruiting system. I completely bypassed it, I applied for ROTP got declined. Called up a unit in the town I was moving to, got the letter, did a fitness test and bam swore in the first weekend I was in town was a on basic 3 weeks later. I initially joined to try out the army, and to see if I really wanted to apply for ROTP a second time. Tried CT-OTing, that hasn't worked and civvy side is looking ok, so looks I'll stay a reservist. If it hadn't been for the RMC rep showing up to my highschool in the middle of nowhere on the University Night, I never would of even thought of the reserves and I would of been caught up in this mess. Luckily it all worked out.




Offline daftandbarmy

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The CO tasked our recruiting officer to write up a discussion paper putting forward ideas to speed up recruiting. Apparently 'higher' is seeking ideas to speed up  reserve recruiting.

We were standing in the armoury at that time. My helpful contribution was along the lines of: 'my grandfather enlisted here in 1915, and my dad did the same in 1941. Within a week of signing up they, and several hundred others, were enlisted and marching around this parade square in suits. Why can't we do that now?'.
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Offline kratz

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Quote from: ModlrMike
Perhaps we need a trade in the Trg Dev branch for NCOs to remuster into... something like Recruiter. We can get them qualified as HR specialists and let them loose on the public. Give them wide latitude on the processing of files. One challenge of course will be the inherent non-deployable nature of the trade, but sometimes we have to make accommodations...

Quote from: George Wallace
The CAFRG does run Recruiter Courses for both Reg and Reserve candidates.  I attended a Reserve orientated one in Connaught run by the local CAFRC, and then attended the CAFRG combined one in Borden/Barrie a year or two later.  Many of the staff at CAFRCs are PRes.  Having qualified Reservists as Recruiters is not the problem, as much as the sluggishness of the whole system, and the various timings to meet "Priorities" such as ROTP selection that shut down or slow all other recruiting to a snails pace.  Add in the factor that we now do much more detailed security checks than we did pre-digital age; not to mention the contracting out of services to civilian contractors.

NAVRES sends their unit recruiters on the course as a condition of the class B contract.
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NAVRES sends their unit recruiters on the course as a condition of the class B contract.

It's a prerequisite for Army reserve recruiters as well.  However, as much training as possible will not speed up a broken business process, with overlapping and redundant checks and balances.

My unit just enrolled a new off-the-street officer who had been in the process for two years.  Now, with our current training system, it will be at least two more years before he's employable in his MOSID.
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Offline RCPalmer

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Recruiting Detachments are neither mandated nor funded to provide support to PRes Recruiting efforts.  Anything they currently do provide, is done so on a "space available" basis only.

This is not correct.  CFRG has a mandate for and funding to conduct PRes applicant processing.  If anyone tells you it is done on a "space available" basis, it is simply not true.  What is true is that PRes recruiting is low the CFRG priority list, with ROTP being the top priority. You are correct in that CFRG is not funded for PRes attractions efforts.  This is the responsibility of the respective environments, and their subordinate formations.   It is a subtle distinction, but significant if you are negotiating with your local CFRC/Det for processing horsepower.