Author Topic: BMQ personal kit search  (Read 30541 times)

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MasterRaistlin

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BMQ personal kit search
« on: June 25, 2004, 22:15:14 »
Hey folks,

  Well...2 days until I leave for BMQ. Getting everything together here, but I have a question I was hoping someone could answer. I've had quite a few conflicting answers to it so here goes:

On BMQ are the instructors allowed to search your personal kit?

My Sgt said that they'll do a thorough search through everything and take away stuff that you "won't need" for the first few weeks. However, a buddy of mine who just did his BMQ last year said that, by law, he didn't think that they could do that without good reason (like a stereo or a restricted item or something).

So, any stories folks?

Offline willy

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Re: BMQ personal kit search
« Reply #1 on: June 25, 2004, 22:29:13 »
Your friend doesn't know what he's talking about. 

Limpy

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Re: BMQ personal kit search
« Reply #2 on: June 25, 2004, 22:35:14 »
When it comes to kit inspections and wether or not your instructors can search your kit, just wait till a C7 mag goes missing then you will really know the answer (just hope you didn't lose it!). So just bring what you need and and inspections shouldn't be a problem.

Offline ~RoKo~

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Re: BMQ personal kit search
« Reply #3 on: June 25, 2004, 23:00:26 »
I posted this story in another topic a day or two ago, so I'll give the abridged version..

Yes, like Limpy says, if something important like a part of a weapon goes missing, they WILL search everyones personal kit.

Also, if you leave your kit unlocked/unsecured, expect it to be torn appart when you return to it.

Offline Sundborg

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Re: BMQ personal kit search
« Reply #4 on: June 25, 2004, 23:28:54 »
Once you arrive at your BMQ, they will look through your kit briefly to make sure you don't have any restricted items.  But while you are there, they don't really have any reason to.  You wont really have any real spot to put your personal kit other than the Bag storage; in your locker you only have the items you need for the course, like your clothing for example.  Everytime you have an inspection they will go though it, so if you have anything, they'll find it...  they know all the spots.  Like Roko said, if you leave anything out during the day, or unlocked, it will be torn apart and messed up, and you will be given a directive.  And maybe even when you get back from your day's work, you'll have a scare-crow on your bed, wearing all of your cloths; filled with them too.  It happened to quite a few guys on my course.  pretty funny actually.
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Offline Michael O'Leary

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Re: BMQ personal kit search
« Reply #5 on: June 25, 2004, 23:31:06 »
Ripping apart a bedspace may seem like good fun, but it's legality can be questionable, and it gets very problematic if illegal contraband is found.

There's a fine line between what constitutes a inspection under normal customs and practices of the service and what may be an act that would be construed as an illegal search if contraband was found. Course staff have to be careful to establish what the normal inspection practices are and then adhere to them. That's one reason why recruits in Basic Training are limited in the personal belongings they have and that all or most of their personal bedspace is open to normal inspections. An unannounced "tearing apart" of a soldier's kit might not have the desired result if the JAG establishes that evidence was gathered as the result of an illegal search that should have been the subject of a warrant issued by the Commanding Officer.


The following are the specific paragraphs from the National Defence Act covering inspections and searches.



National Defence Act
http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/N-5/index.html

PART V MISCELLANEOUS PROVISIONS HAVING GENERAL APPLICATION
http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/n-5/85405.html


Quote

Inspections
 
273.1 The Governor in Council may make regulations

(a) authorizing the inspection, in accordance with the custom or practice of the service, of any person or thing in, on or about

(i) any defence establishment, work for defence or materiel, or

(ii) any quarters under the control of the Canadian Forces or the Department; and

(b) respecting the access to, exclusion from and safety and conduct of persons in, on or about any defence establishment, work for defence or materiel, including, without restricting the generality of the foregoing, regulations

(i) respecting the inspection of persons and property entering, exiting or on any such place or materiel, and

(ii) requiring any person, as a condition of being given access to that place or materiel, to submit, on demand, to a search of the person and the person's personal or movable property while entering or exiting that place or materiel or any restricted area within that place or materiel.

R.S., 1985, c. 31 (1st Supp.), s. 59; 1998, c. 35, s. 84.
 

 
Searches

 273.2 Except as provided for by regulations made pursuant to section 273.1, the following, namely,

(a) quarters under the control of the Canadian Forces or the Department and occupied for residential purposes by any person subject to the Code of Service Discipline either alone or with that person's dependants, as well as any locker or storage space located in those quarters and exclusively used by that person or those dependants for personal purposes, and

(b) the personal or movable property of any person subject to the Code of Service Discipline located in, on or about any defence establishment, work for defence or materiel,

may be searched only if a warrant for that purpose has been issued or the search is otherwise authorized by law.

R.S., 1985, c. 31 (1st Supp.), s. 59; 1998, c. 35, s. 85.

 
Warrant by commanding officer

 273.3 Subject to sections 273.4 and 273.5, a commanding officer who is satisfied by information on oath that there is in any quarters, locker, storage space or personal or movable property referred to in section 273.2

(a) anything on or in respect of which any offence against this Act has been or is believed on reasonable grounds to have been committed,

(b) anything that there are reasonable grounds to believe will afford evidence with respect to the commission of an offence against this Act, or

(c) anything that there are reasonable grounds to believe is intended to be used for the purpose of committing any offence against the person for which a person may be arrested without warrant,

may issue a warrant authorizing any officer or non-commissioned member named in the warrant, assisted by such other officers and non-commissioned members as are necessary, or a peace officer, to search the quarters, locker, storage space or personal or movable property for any such thing, and to seize and carry it before that commanding officer.

R.S., 1985, c. 31 (1st Supp.), s. 59; 1998, c. 35, s. 86.

 
Investigating commanding officer

 273.4 The commanding officer who carries out or directly supervises the investigation of any matter may issue a warrant pursuant to section 273.3 in relation to that investigation only if that commanding officer believes on reasonable grounds that

(a) the conditions for the issuance of the warrant exist; and

(b) no other commanding officer is readily available to determine whether the warrant should be issued.

R.S., 1985, c. 31 (1st Supp.), s. 59.

 
Military police

 273.5 Section 273.3 does not apply to a commanding officer of a military police unit.

R.S., 1985, c. 31 (1st Supp.), s. 59.


Pugnacious

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Re: BMQ personal kit search
« Reply #6 on: June 26, 2004, 04:38:56 »
"And maybe even when you get back from your day's work, you'll have a scare-crow on your bed, wearing all of your cloths; filled with them too.   It happened to quite a few guys on my course.   pretty funny actually."

Hahahahaha!   ;D
Oh man that is funny.

I tell yah if I joint, the only personal item I'm brining is MYSELF.
And of course what is mentioned here:
http://army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,13460.0
But are you allowed a little pocket knife if it stays in your pocket?

BTW: this site is a fantastic resource!
P.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2004, 05:59:07 by Pugnacious »

Offline AlphaCharlie

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Re: BMQ personal kit search
« Reply #7 on: June 26, 2004, 10:18:23 »
You're allowed to have knives yes. A small combat knife is good, but no 10" Rambo knives. :D


I wonder if books would be taken away?
Ducimus. We Lead.

Offline bossi

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Re: BMQ personal kit search
« Reply #8 on: June 26, 2004, 11:17:31 »
Quote
You're allowed to have knives yes. A small combat knife is good, but no 10" Rambo knives.
I wonder if books would be taken away?

First of all, I'm reasonably certain there's a Canadian law that governs the length of knives
(i.e. under the Criminal Code of Canada)
When you're a recruit, "uniformity" is being stressed, therefore any individual who goes "too far" vis-a-vis festooning him/herself with gardening utensils or small forestry/harvesting devices will be told to put them away.

As for books ... the short answer is "no" - that's not supposed to happen in a democracy
(unless, of course, the books are illegal ... as per illegal knives, as discussed, above).
Junior officers and NCOs who neglect to guide the thinking of their men are shirking a command responsibility.
-Feb 1955 Cbt Forces Journal
Those who appreciate true valour should in their daily intercourse set gentleness first and aim to win the love and esteem of others. If you affect valour and act with violence, the world will in the end detest you and look upon you as wild beasts. Of this you should take heed.
-Emperor Meiji: Rescript to Soldiers and Sailors, 4 January 1883

Offline AlphaCharlie

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Re: BMQ personal kit search
« Reply #9 on: June 26, 2004, 15:44:42 »
Damn. So much for having a nice military novel to read to get me motivated!
Ducimus. We Lead.

Pugnacious

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Re: BMQ personal kit search
« Reply #10 on: June 26, 2004, 20:49:07 »
Darn I really wanted to bring my big Austrian Harvest Sythe (I'm not kidding I collect these) , but then again I'd prob' be put to work hand mowing the back 40 on the base with it. ;D

I have a small folding knife which is legal, and a legal Cold steel SRK recon 6" single edged fixed blade, black parkerized.
I'd only bring the folding one though.  I also have one of those letherman tools, but I read that you get one like it...is this true? 
Do you get issued a knife or bayonet in your take home kit?

Also I was wonder what the picture frame was for?
And what is the purpose of it in basic training?
And what type of pic would they like in it?

Sorry for the dum questions, and yes I have looked around this site for the answers.
Cheers!
P.

Offline AlphaCharlie

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Re: BMQ personal kit search
« Reply #11 on: June 26, 2004, 21:42:02 »
Well, a knife is always nice to have. I personally have a SOG Seal Pup with a 3.75" fixed blade, and it's great. Secondly, about bayonettes, no, you do not get issued one, as they are part of your EIS (extra infantry **** :D ) and they are issued when you get your weapon, and you turn it in when you hand you weapon back in. The issued multi-tool (Gerber) is a good thing to have, but they only issue them when you're fully qualified.

About the picture frame... no idea. I didn't have to bring one on mine.
Ducimus. We Lead.

Offline Michael O'Leary

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Re: BMQ personal kit search
« Reply #12 on: June 26, 2004, 21:46:07 »
The picture frame is for a picture of your girlfriend or significant other. Apparently some staff think it's cute to make every soldier have one so that all the bunkspaces look alike. If they make you get one and you don't have a girlfriend, find any photo that you like, they don't know what your girlfriend would look like anyway.

Offline ~RoKo~

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Re: BMQ personal kit search
« Reply #13 on: June 26, 2004, 22:25:08 »
Quote
If they make you get one and you don't have a girlfriend, find any photo that you like, they don't know what your girlfriend would look like anyway.

PRIVATE BLOGGINS!!! Brooke Burke is NOT your girlfriend!

Offline Carcharodon Carcharias

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Re: BMQ personal kit search
« Reply #14 on: June 26, 2004, 22:55:13 »
Mate, to avoid drawing any unnecessary attention to yourself, just take whats on the kit list, plus a few personal items too. I dont think you'll have time to read 'recreationally' for a while.

As for knives, I find the Swiss Army Knife w/2 inch blade, scissors, file/screw driver, tweezer and tooth pick adequite or even a Swiss Army 'card', as it tucks into your wallet.

Of all the knives, and bayonets I have carried, this little knife works the best, valued here in Australia at abou $18-$22.

Best of luck in your training.

Regards,

Wes
"You've never lived until you've almost died; as for our freedom, for those of us who have fought for it, life has a flavour the protected will never know." - Anonymous

bgreen

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Re: BMQ personal kit search
« Reply #15 on: June 27, 2004, 06:24:53 »
Not withstanding the issues raised by Bossi about uniformity and Wes about the Swiss army knife both of which I agree with, here are some things you might consider for the fieldcraft portion of your training.  In your health kit roll include a small metal mirror and a toothbrush cover to keep the crude out and some liquid handsoap and shampoo in small bottles like you get in hotels.  I also use a small 35 mm film canister stocked with wooden matches that are wind and rain proof stored face down  with the striker plate glued inside the lid.  I also take about 4 large dark bungey cords and a small amount of para cord to set my groundsheet houch up faster. Remember anyone can be uncomfortable in the field but you must learn to enjoy the outdoors (outback for Wes).  Cheers
BG

Offline Allan Luomala

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Re: BMQ personal kit search
« Reply #16 on: June 27, 2004, 20:16:01 »
Reference the photo in your locker: if your mom is hot (a "cougar") put a photo of her in there. Most Sgt's will spend more time admiring your mom than looking at all the grunge in your soap dish  :o

Al

Offline Raquette

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Re: BMQ personal kit search
« Reply #17 on: June 27, 2004, 20:44:57 »
Do you think I could bring a CD player with a few CDs ? Or it is prohibbed ?

Offline KevinB

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Re: BMQ personal kit search
« Reply #18 on: June 28, 2004, 02:29:47 »
Where might I ask did you did up the length of a blade being legal in the CC of Canada?
I used to carry a machete no one ever arrested me (well for that at least)

Bring the minimun of kit you need to get by, by and large you wont be using your civvies that often.


 Kit can be checked for contraband however when it is done there is usually a warning and time to beg forgiveness prior.


The nice little signs on the base explaining what is a defence establishment has been deemed to be fair warning.  We had room searches of guys who were overseas that were allowed...




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NavyGrunt

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Re: BMQ personal kit search
« Reply #19 on: June 28, 2004, 03:34:07 »
Actually the criminal code doesnt talk specifically about blade length. It instead talks about prohibited types of knives. It used to have a blade length section however its been gone for sometime. You have to have a legitimate reason for the knife besides "self defense". Unless your a fully qualified knife fighter and have reason to believe you require that knife for defense.

Pugnacious

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Re: BMQ personal kit search
« Reply #20 on: June 28, 2004, 14:09:28 »
"Unless your a fully qualified knife fighter and have reason to believe you require that knife for defense."

Very true...Let me digress for a bit and add some stuff.

I'd open the Canadian criminal code book and do some quotes but I'm off to vote so I'll be quick.
In Canada EVERYTHING is considered a 'potential weapon'. 
Some weapons are specifide only to outline wether they are restriced (need permits) or prohibited (illegal to have)...ie handguns, Assualt weapons etc.

There is no qualification for knives, or registration.
Training courses are not outlined, and the law, and the leagl beagles consider you an expert after one week end course, but even this is not really outlined.

The colour of the law basicly says (in my own words here) you better have  a good reason why you have said knife tucked in your belt in so and so situation.
BTW: "for self defence" IS a valid reason, as is utility. The overall picture with regards to the situation is what the police are looking at.

Also understand that if you use the knife (or any other weapon) you had better be in very dire situation of life and death or you will prob' be charged with active participation..or some such nasty...even with the attackers knife still in your gut.

I firmly believe that if you have a knife know how and when to use it, but understand even in self defence the legal mess one is going to have to deal with is prob' as bad as the assult on ones person in the first place.  The legal system in Canada can be a really tricky place. And you can always be dragged back into court by the attacker who is now sueing you for damages (believe it or not it has happend).

I know this as I have studied knife fighting for many years, and watched many go through this.  Furthermore the first thing we where taught as a 'civillian' student was how to AVOID the situation, and how to GET AWAY as fast as possible...running heel-to-toe.  We were also taught the FBI's R.A.D system ie...Recognize danger, Avoid said danger, and failing the first 2 steps if need be Defend self, but aim to disengage and cycle back to the first, and second step.  Take this info into court and the judge will recognize you are not only trained, but made efforts to stay disengaged from the fight in a civil manner... COVER YOUR A$$.  ;D

Play safe, and you may no return this topic to its upright position.
Cheers!
P.

Offline KevinB

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Re: BMQ personal kit search
« Reply #21 on: June 29, 2004, 01:35:30 »
Knives are tools, if it is the only tool you have...
Kevin S. Boland

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Offline madpat

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Re: BMQ personal kit search
« Reply #22 on: June 29, 2004, 13:47:58 »
I'm on weekend leave from BMQ in Chilliwack right now so I am assuming that the original poster is on the later serial that arrived on sunday so the way I was treated is likely similar to how they will be treated. No personal knives over 4", kit inspection on arrival, and the best of all, the Chilliwack barracks are on RCMP property and therefor the few rights you have in the military about searches needing JAG warrents are moot. Long story short, don't bring booze drugs or knives, keep your crap locked and neat and cell phones and radios are allowed if you don't do anything too stupid. Don't blast the listen to them without head phones and ensure that the only time your phone is turned on/on you is once you are off for the day.
All generalizations are false.

Offline portcullisguy

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Re: BMQ personal kit search
« Reply #23 on: June 29, 2004, 17:01:37 »
While I don't want to (nor am qualified to) give a law lesson on weapons, as a customs officer I am required to know plenty about weapons laws as part of my job is to make a determination about the classification of goods and permit or deny their entry into Canada based on those laws.

The Criminal Code defines weapons, and to summarize it, includes anything deisgned or intended to be used as a weapon.  Knives are not named specifically, but are included under "designed" or "intended" in most instances.  For example, a butter knife is not designed to be a weapon, but if you stab someone with it, then you intended it so.  Similarly, a switchblade is designed as a weapon (it has no practical manufactured use aside from that), but not necessarily intended as one if you just collect them.  So why is one illegal, and the other not?

The asmwer is the Prohibited Weapons Orders, issued by Order-in-Council.  The Criminal Code allows the government to issue orders-in-council prescribing certain weapons (and devices, and ammunition, and firearms) as prohibited, restricted, etc.

Most knives are ok.  The ones that are not include:

- "Flick" knives (a knife that can be opened merely by centrifugal force, or flicking your wrist)
- Switchblades (a spring loaded or mechanically assisted knife that opens by button or release on the HANDLE ... buttons/levers on the blade are ok)
- Any device concealing a blade and which is disguised as an innocuous object (a lighter with a knife, a belt buckle with a knife, etc)
- A gravity knife
- Any bladed device with the handle perpendicular to the blade (a push dagger)
- A butterfly knife (again, opens by centrifugal force)

There is no limit on blade length, except as an exception to the above rules.  For example, a sword cane is not illegal, because it is over 30cm in length.  If you ever found a switchblade that was over a foot long, it would be legal as well.

These PWO's classify certain goods and make them illegal or illegal depending on what the government believes their designed use is.  However, as I pointed out before, the "intended" use can also make something illegal.  A concealed weapon is illegal, even if the item itself is legal.  If I go walking around with a steak knife taped to my forearm under the sleeve, and get caught, I'll have a hard time explaining it's my favourite steak knife and I was going to a restaurant to order up a T-bone.

Which brings us to a final point -- something is only unlawful if it's caught.  But my advice is, not to take chances.  If you don't need it, don't carry it.  I only carry a small folding pocket knife for work.  I don't carry it any other time anymore.  Odds are, if you end up in a knife fight with someone who knows how to use one, you are better off not having a knife of your own.
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Pugnacious

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Re: BMQ personal kit search
« Reply #24 on: June 29, 2004, 17:38:13 »
Good info from Customs guy.
And sorry in advance I'm going to prattle on a bit more...

IMHO one really needs to know the laws of the land, a how many laws don't make any sense at all, and I suspect many where prob' written by people sitting in an office reading magazines saying "oh that looks nasty, lets bann it!" with littel practicle knowledge on the subject.  Let a Customs officer or a Peace officer write the book, and things would look much better IMHO.

For example...
Regarding what you wrote: - "Flick" knives (a knife that can be opened merely by centrifugal force, or flicking your wrist)

Here is an interesting example... I have a small 4" single blade Kershaw folding knife, it has a thumb "index point" along the top back of the blade so it can be opened one handed / thumb..that is physicaly opened... non mechanicly, there are no springs or such mech'. 

Now tech' I can also 'flck-it' open via centrifugal force..like any good folding BUCK knife also...with the wrist action mentioned or by holding the top back edge of the blade.It isn't designed for this, but it can function like this.

In comparison this can be done MUCH faster then a butterfly knife ie.. Balisong (which I'm trained with), and BTW a bit further off topic part of the butterfly knifes operation, and design is not just in the opening of the blade, but grapples, pinches, joint manipulation, and such...which is seldom seen on the streets of Canada.

My little Kershaw is sold at many knife shops around Canada in malls etc, and makes it through customs OK by he thousands all the time.
RCMP have looked at it over the years when I leave it with them at the front desk If I have to testify in court via security job stuff, and never batted an eye. Other then to say "nice knife, I'd like to get one". I also often see ER teams and Ambulance people carry them.

Of course I carry it for utility only as well. 
Besides which only an idiot in this day and age of Aids, and hepatitis 1, 2 and 3 would want someone bleeding all over them.

Don't bring it if yu don't need it is really good advice.
Cheers!
P.