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Which is better? The M16 rifle or the AK47?

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AK47
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C7
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AK74
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Author Topic: AK47 vs. C7 or M16  (Read 69018 times)

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Pugnacious

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AK47 vs. C7 or M16
« on: June 17, 2004, 03:49:41 »
Greetings!

It Must have been the show on the discovery channel a few months back...M16 vs Ak47.
They showed a whole bunch of ranges tets etc...pretty interesting, and it got me thinking...

I'm wondering what everyone here thinks about the 2 in comparison.
In this case I guess it would be AK74 vs C7.

Also does the C7 suffer the same 'dust jamming' effects as the M16?
BTW: I'm a civillian (so far) so be gentle on me. ;D

Cheers!
P

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Re: AK74 vs C7
« Reply #1 on: June 17, 2004, 05:50:41 »
First of all, the Diemaco C7 rifle is a licenced copy of the M16A2 with a few exceptions in difference. The early problems with the M16 was the propellant in the US M193 ball ammo used in the 1960s. That has long since changed, and the ammo has improved, along with changes and mods to the weapon itself, the most important a new heavier bullet (SS109) and a different rate of twist in the bore (1-7, 1-9 are most common, with the A1 version having a 1/12. C7s are 1/7".

Currently the M16 family of weapons has been in service for almost 40 yrs, and its the most combat proven 5.56 x 45mm rifle in existance, with all the bugs worked out of it pretty much anyways.

I have extreme confidence in the wpns system, and I would carry it anywhere in any theatre anytime.

Now the AK family. Firstly, the AK74 series of 5.45 x39mm weapons has too been around for many years. The AK-47 in 7.62 x 39mm was a solid rifle with a machined reciever from solid stock. In its original configuration, it still will be encountered anywhere in the world by the bad guys or . It was first introduced back in 1947, based on  'asistance' from captured German engineers (remember the MP44) with some Soviet assistance from 'Mike' Kalashnikov.

I recently examined  about 15 AK47s,  some Russian, and some Bulgarian which were captured by our (Australian) military forces in Iraq. Also there was a large quantity of Russian, Chi-Com (Type 56, and Type 56-1s), Polish, and Romanian AKMs too. All jealously marked in arabic characters on the wood.  These are deemed for museums in Australia. All were well used, and had mix matched parts, as even com-bloc wpns have the body cover serialised along with the gas tube assembly, etc. Wherer as the C7 and US M16s only has the lower reciever serialised. Australia serialises the upper and the bolt carrier at Army base wksp level.

With hen FN C1A1 rifle. The M16s used in the  VN war were mainly A1 versions made by Colt and GM, along with ealy XM16E1s, which strangely enough may still be encountered (upgraded to A1 specs thru attrition back in the 1970s), as the A1 is still in the system here, along with the A2, and M4. Ordering ammo is a nightmare because the A1s use the older M193 ball, while the A2s and M4, along with the F88 Austeyr use the 5.56 NATO SS 109 ammo.

In 1959 a lighter modified version of the AK was brought into service by the Soviets, called the AKM. A few simpler design changes, mainly the use of a stamped receiver and ribbed body cover, along with 1000m rear sights, a funky angel cut muzzle break, and the provision for a proper bayonet.

Then in 1974 a new type of AK was first seen by Allied Forces in the November military parades in Moscow. The calibre of this was the new 5.45 x 39mm, which was designed to compete with the US 5.56 for accuracy and lethality. The rifle gained popularity in Afghanistan, and again differs slightly from the AKM. The main differences are of course the calibre, an improvement in the bolt, a new muzzle break, and different stock design. The folding stock version folds sideways, and is more robust than the traditional MP40 style folding butt on the AKM and AK47.

The AK74 and its variants can be quickly identified by either orange or black bakelite/plastic type mags, which are not as curved as its 7.62 x 39 cousin, and of course the extended unique looking muzzle break. The rear wooden butt is also slightly different with a groove down the side of it. Recently a new upgraded spear point bayonet has been brought into service. It still cuts wire, and is either black or plum in colour. Its made in Russian and Bulgaria, and has a new ergonomic style of grip, similar in fashion to the ridges on the US M9 bayonet. It will fit on any AKM and AK74 rifle.

Overall the AK family of weapons are traditionally robust and the use of them is easily taught to inferior less trained troops, so even the village idiot can figure it out.

As for the safety, its located on the right hand side of the weapon, and unique to the AK, the first click down is Automatic, and the second click is semi-automatic. On the downside, try moving the safety with gloves, or worse, with the under folding stock on the AKM and AK47 with the stock folded, try moving the safety with gloves on again. Its difficult. There is also a distinct  'clack' when the catch is moved, and this no doubt can be clearly heard on a quiet night.

The sights are traditional following in the PKM GPMG, SKS carbine and M1891 rifle style sighting pictures. The AK74 rifle has an effective range in par with the 508mm bbl M16A2/C7.

The AK also has a LMG version called an RPK in 7.62 x 39mm, and RPKS74 in 5.45 x 39mm. The receiver is slightly more reinforced, different rear sights, and longer bbl, folding bipod, and different butt. There is also AFV short barreled versions too, one being called an AKSU.

Russia is currently pushing yet a new version of the AK74, with Picatinny rail,and the use of plastics instead of wood. The rifle is evolving too, along with its NATO/western counterparts, the Russians too must keep up with the Jones also.

To sum up, the AK is a very good rifle, but has its limitations (no arctic trigger for example), and I too would feel confident to carry and use this weapon in any theartre.

Hope this info helps ya out, and I am sorry for any spelling mistakes as for a while yet I cant edit.


Cheers,

Wes
"You've never lived until you've almost died; as for our freedom, for those of us who have fought for it, life has a flavour the protected will never know." - Anonymous

Offline Carcharodon Carcharias

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Re: AK74 vs C7
« Reply #2 on: June 17, 2004, 06:29:50 »
As for stoppages, any rifle no matter what needs to be maintained. This includes the AK and M16. The latest lube used by the ADF is the French product Nycolube. Its almost like a jelly, and its viscosity holds up under the extreme heat and jungle conditions here in our tropics. I had given it out in qty of East Timorse troops along with soldiers Papua New Guinea too. They just loved it.

So if these rifles are kept clean and properly lubed, and maintained (with defects reported, yes all rifles break and wear too) they work relitively fine in any condition, but all wpns systems do not work so great with blanks, which are used for trg purposes. As for stoppages involving the action of the M16 FOW, say the bolt, there is a forward assist on the M16 family of weapons which when tapped (not struck) pushes the bolt carrier into battery.

The upper and lower recievers of the C7/M16FOW are made of an alloy material. The way the action is designed, a light alloy works fine, and makes the overall wpn lighter. The bbls on the C7 are also chrome plated, but so are the ones on the AK74 and AKM.

No, the bbls of the M16 are not made of an alloy, and the rifle is NOT disposable, as there are many rumours which used to say so. Also the Russian 5.45 x39mm and  western 5.56 x 45mm are not in any way shape or form interchangeable.

Another urban legend was the stocks, pistol grips and handguards of the M16 were made by Mattel. That too is a dirty great big giant crock of warm and fresh BS.

The gas systems on the C7 and AK are entirely different too, with the C7 useing direct gas forced thru a small narrow tube with no piston, whilst the AK uses a piston system to cycle the action. The psiton a op rod/bolt carrier are all in one, similar like that of a Minimi LSW/LMG.

Bayonet wise for the C7, an improved stainless bladed version of the US M7 is used by the CF. The US use the M9 bayonet, as do the ADF. Also encountered in Australia is the US M7 bayonet both in M8 and M10 scabbards. The C7 nella bayonet has a unique Cdn designed scabbard. Its plastic and light. The advantage of plastic scabbard is it never rusts, or loses its colour, and it takes shock (it doesnt dent). The KCB 176 Euro bayonet was also trialed here in Australia, but was not adopted. These are the 4 types of bayonets found for the M16FOW. I have seen all versions in service break too, so I cannot really say which ones the best, but all perform adequatly in their own way. The C7 and M7 bayonet do not have wire cutting capability, but the M9 and KCB do.

AKs have serveral different types of bayonets. The early AKs had a primitve one which attached itself in a non-traditional way. The Chi-Coms use a folding cruiform bayonet (wounds from this take longer to heal than a 3rd degree burn), but for export purposes they produce a design like the Russians. There are 3 differnt types of bayonets which fit on the AKM and AK74 rifles. All cut wire, but different countries, Poland for example have a slightly different blade, and the early Chi-Com export model does not have the provison for cutting wire.

The AK FOW have been made by many countries which include the fol:

Russia
China
North Korea
Egypt
Poland
Hungary
Finland (modified Valmet version)
Romania
Bulgaria
Yugoslavia, and more places too.
Plus, Israel's 5.56mm Galil rifle is based on the AK too.

The M16 FOW has been made in the USA by Colt, H&R, GM, and in recent yrs, by numerous other US manufacturers. It has also been made in the past in the ROK, The Philippines, Singapore and of course Canada.

Colt even has a LMG version of the M16A2 which fires from an open bolt!

There are millions and millions of both types of rifles in existance.



Anyways, I hope I have not bored you to tears. when my mind goes 'techo' its hard to shut off. Again excuse any spelling mistakes.

Cheers,

Wes
"You've never lived until you've almost died; as for our freedom, for those of us who have fought for it, life has a flavour the protected will never know." - Anonymous

Offline Ex-Dragoon

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Re: AK74 vs C7
« Reply #3 on: June 17, 2004, 06:37:03 »
Excellent post Wes! We appreciate you taking the time to share your knowledge with us. :)
I will leave your flesh on the mountains and fill the valleys with your carcasses. I will water the land with what flows from you, and the river beds shall be filled with your blood. When I snuff you out I will cover the heavens and all the stars will darken. Ezekiel 32:5-7
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G3RM

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Re: AK74 vs C7
« Reply #4 on: June 17, 2004, 12:11:17 »
There was a deal on this on the discovery channel about a week ago. It was the AK-47 VS the M16. I'll try to find if they are going to re-run the program.

Pugnacious

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Re: AK74 vs C7
« Reply #5 on: June 17, 2004, 14:08:37 »
Wow!
Wes talk about a jackpot of info!
Even though I'm still a civi I'm a tech freak so yah couldn't bore me on this topic.

I'm also glad to here that the Australians are saving some of the captured Ak's for a musiem.
I've seen some pics of the captured weapons and some look like junk, and others are suprisingly nice looking personal works of art IMHO.

Can troops (Can/US/Aus) bring confiscated weapons (one or two) back home for a personal collection?

I esp' have to cry when I see a Dragonov sniper rifle on its way to getting trashed.
They are very hard to get in North America...Russian ones anyway, and very $$$
If I could have one firearm as a civi it would be a Dragonov.

Yah the show was worth it if it comes back on try to see it.
The range footage was pretty neat.
My overview...
The M16 fired crisp clean shots into the target, and had good groupings on 3 rnd burts.
The AK was like an old tommy gun, and to get good shots the guy had to "double tap" or it was all over the place, but it sure was spectacular.
They even slowed down the film on the barrels and you could see the AK barrel flexing on what I'm assuming was full auto.

Another suprise was they set up wood on the range to test the penetrating power, and the M16 shot didn't go through.
But the AK sure did.  This was in refrence to the going through the tree your hiding behind effect the troops in Vietnam reported about.

I'm glad Canada has added its own what some here call 'polite Canadian touches' on the C7, I'm sure I'll be happy to use it if I join up, but I wouldn't refuse a modern  AK either.  :)

Thanx again Wes, and if yah think of anything else I'm all ears.
Cheers!
P

Noyon

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Re: AK74 vs C7
« Reply #6 on: June 17, 2004, 14:57:17 »
Nice post Wes, quite informative.

Offline brin11

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Re: AK74 vs C7
« Reply #7 on: June 17, 2004, 16:11:59 »
Just wanted to add that we used to serialize the bolt carrier in the C7 when the weapons were first issued but no longer do so.  Not sure when they made the change ( I was out of the loop at that time).
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Re: AK74 vs C7
« Reply #8 on: June 17, 2004, 17:15:43 »
Of all the AKs out there, the best quality ones I have seen were the Former East German manufactured ones, and the worst
the Chi-Coms.

The East German AKM has that German quality and machining we all have come to know. Even compare the East German Makrov 9 x18mm pistol to the Russian made type. Its like black and white in the quality of workmanship.

Now as for accuracy, I have had no problem getting 150mm (6 inch) groups at 100 metres with an AKM, and the bit about the bbl flexing, well it might have looked like it, but I assure you it does not. The rifle is as solid as a rock. An AKM is effective out to about 300m, yet on the rear sights, they are graduated to 1000 metres, and the AK47 to 800 metres. Wierd.

Do western countries hold AKMs etc for trg purposes? Well sure we know the US has the OPFOR even with Soviet tanks, and yes the OPFOR has the AKs. Australia also holds them too, mainly for EN force use, but SASR and other SF units also have them for their specific use too. A while back I seen some East German MPiKMS ( 'S" being the designation for the East German  copy of the rifle in side folding stock form) rifles, which were tagged and deemed for destruction. They appeared in great shape, but the tags attched said 'fails headspace', and were signed off by the armourers from the SASR.

The Yugoslavian version is also nicely made, and even has a grenade launching sight attached to the gas tube. With every country that made the AK, each as its own identifier, for example the AKM with the wooden pistol grip on the handguard is Romainian (plenty of these in Iraq), while a plastic forward pistol grip in grey-blue is Hungarian. Russian AKMs have grasping rails which is sometimes called a beavertail, while others yet are just plain. Wooden furniture on Russian made rifles is laminated (plywood), while other countries use solid wood.

As for selector (safety catch) markings, each country often uses their own language. For example Russian AKs have AB and OU Romanian ones use S R and A, Finland usues  dots, and Chi-Coms use Chinese characters, but export models of their AK (Type 56 and Type 56-1) have the letters L and D. Also the bayonets appear in different colours of resin for the scabbards and grips too. The common thing is they all fit on any AKM or AK74.

Since the collaspse of the iron curtin, these bayonets have become abumdant on civvy street, and can be found in most surplus shops and at gun shows. They have even made their way into Australia too. Seems the most common are the East German ones with black plastic scabbards and yellow coloured grips. Also the EG ones have etched by hand the serial number on the bayonet, and the last 3 digits on the scabbard. Com-Bloc countries are famous for serialising  their bayonets. I have every country's manufacture of bayonet in my collection less Eqypt.

Bloody hell, I ramble dont I.

Any more questions, just yell.

Cheers,

Wes
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Re: AK74 vs C7
« Reply #9 on: June 17, 2004, 17:40:11 »
As for war trophies, here in Australia bringing rifles and pistols back is a big SIN, but it has been done, as sometimes these turn up in crime, and are surrendered in amnesties too. However its not a sin to bring back bayonets and that sort of thing, but I am told the CF wont let you even do that. Personally souviner hunting can prove to be fatal with everything being booby trapped especially in Iraq, so I would not be rummaging around in a dirty old bunker looking for anything. So I guess the ban has its merrits. I had a freind send me a Yugloslavian AKM bayonet (jet black grip and scabbard) from the FRY back in 1992, and even then it was a no-no.

The M16A2 comes in many versions, for example with or without burst control, and with field sights ( like the original C7) or with the funky type which allow the shooter to adjust for windage and elevation on the rear sight. Also it can come in 1/7, 1/9 or still 1/12 twist on the bbl for countries still using the M193 ammo.

As for the M4, well it too has many versions, and the M4 also is made in 9 x19mm too. This to compete with the HK MP5 FOW. Even the Steyr/AUG has a 9mm version too.

The latest wpn system to hit the ADF in 7.62 x51mm NATO is the SR-25. It follows the footsteps of the original AR10 in which the AR15 design was taken from. In Australia, the SR-25 (SR for Stoner Rifle) is used in the counter sniper role by SF.

From memory the main differences between the M16A1 and A2 are as follows:

improved flash suppresor
thicker bbl from the gas block forward
twist changed from 1/12 to either 1/7 or 1/9 (best performance with SS109 is 1/7" twist, however 1/12 can be orderd also)
improved ergo slip ring
round handguards (eliminates L and R, as one guard fits top and bottom)
upgraded upper receiver with casing deflector for LH shooters
choice of rear sights (new or old type)
re-inforced lower reciever
option of 3rd burst control or full auto
safety catch  is marked on the right side (so you can see what it is set to)
ergo pistol grip
longer butt for N size (5/8" longer) (CF uses various butt lengths)
All furniture is made of an improved material
improved butt plate, and butt trap access

Now you can choose the type of upper too, either with traditional carrying handle or flat top with Picatinny rail. It should be noted too that there has always been a hole in the carry handle to attach a scope and now to attach a Picatinny rail mount has also been designed.




Cheers,

Wes
"You've never lived until you've almost died; as for our freedom, for those of us who have fought for it, life has a flavour the protected will never know." - Anonymous

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Re: AK74 vs C7
« Reply #10 on: June 17, 2004, 17:43:39 »
Forgot to mention the fron sight. The A2 us a square type, and the C7 uses a thin round type. Thats uniquely a Canadiin thing, its by far superior as the square type actually blocks out a Fig 11 tgt at 200 metres. Not that we usse the front sight anyways now with the C7A1.

Also the rubber stay in the extractor has been modified witha head on it, the older ones are cylinderical.

Cheers,

Wes
"You've never lived until you've almost died; as for our freedom, for those of us who have fought for it, life has a flavour the protected will never know." - Anonymous

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Re: AK74 vs C7
« Reply #11 on: June 17, 2004, 17:56:06 »
Sometimes I wish I could edit! (but soon).

As for the penetration you mentioned. Yes the 7.62 will carry thru, not dumping much energy into the target. The 5.56 and 5.45 dump most of their energy into the target, and still pass thru, but many times in fragment, thus causing more blunt trauma and intense shock to a body.  The gelletin effects tests using 7.62, 5.56 and 5.45 are quite fasinating. The permanant cavities left by the smaller calibre ammo are much larger than the 7.62.

So the lethality of the 5.56 and 5.45 bullet is greater than 7.62, but the advantage of 7.62 is it will carry on and is more effective on say concrete and sandbags, etc.

As for bullet deflection, well even a 7.62 will keyhole if it hits a blade of grass or a leaf. I have seen that many times on sneaker ranges (you call em jungle lanes). Thats just plain physics.

Bullet wounds are damaging enough, but the outright trauma from a small calibre bullet travelling at 3000 FPS is much more damaging to tissue than 7.62. BTW for the lay people out there, personal body armour does not defeat rifle ammo unless chicken plat is used. 5.56 and 7.62 will generally pass right thru both sides (ouch).

Cheers,

Wes
"You've never lived until you've almost died; as for our freedom, for those of us who have fought for it, life has a flavour the protected will never know." - Anonymous

Pugnacious

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Re: AK74 vs C7
« Reply #12 on: June 17, 2004, 23:18:09 »
Wow more good info.

Shame about the no collecting thing, but what you say makes sense about crime getting them, and booby traps.

Collecting bayonets is a good alternative.
If I find any intresting one I'll let you know...are you missing any in your collection?
I used to have the US army m9 bayonet/knife (Circa' 1990), but gave it away to a dear friend.

Sorry to ramble on but while I have your attention...have you seen this Russian 'assault rifle'?
http://www.bellum.nu/armoury/wm/A91.html
Sorry I don't know how to do links yet.

I was drawn by the fact that there seems to be a ton of mods for this weapon...even some sort of 'sniper version'.
I also used to have a mov of one being test fired, and it had a pretty unique sound to it.  They say it is ued by the Russain police.

Any experience/info with this one?

BTW: Good info on the body armour, and I have seen arecent news article about a new Russian handgun that uses ammo that will penetrate any body armour..I'll try to find the link.  What is chicken armour you are talking about?
I hope I'm not bothering you too much.

Cheers!
P

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Re: AK74 vs C7
« Reply #13 on: June 18, 2004, 00:29:13 »
In the old days chicken plate used to be titanium, and now its gone ceramic. Its a plate which either slides into the body armour on the front and rear, or infact a larger piece which fits on and over top of body armour.

I had a squizz at that Russian A-91 wpn that was on the link. Seems more for close range personal protection type a thing than anything else for longer ranges. I see too its made in a variety of calibres including 7.62 x 39mm, 5.45 x 39mm, and 5.56 x 45mm. Not to confuse you, but the latter designation of 45mm refers to the casing length.

As you can see with all the modern wpns around, the Russians are trying to get their stuff on the int'l market too. Besides that with the Russian ruble doing so crap, they cannot afford western stuff, and they need to continue a small arms industry within their own borders to keep the whole industry alive there.

Here its ADI, Germany HK, China Norinco, USA Colt, KA, Bushmaster etc, Canada Diemaco, Belgium its FN, and so on. That small list isnt even the tip of the iceberg. As you can see the small arms industry is alive and well worldwide, and there is plenty of customers everywhere, some more desperate than others.

Cheers,

Wes
"You've never lived until you've almost died; as for our freedom, for those of us who have fought for it, life has a flavour the protected will never know." - Anonymous

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Re: AK74 vs C7
« Reply #14 on: June 18, 2004, 00:41:03 »
Wes, maybe you should stop writing here before Mike charges you for the bandwith and publish a book or something!!  :P

Anyway, it IS very informative!!  thanks to share your knowledge with us!


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Re: AK74 vs C7
« Reply #15 on: June 18, 2004, 00:54:16 »
Too right mate! ;D
"You've never lived until you've almost died; as for our freedom, for those of us who have fought for it, life has a flavour the protected will never know." - Anonymous

CI Dumaran

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Re: AK74 vs C7
« Reply #16 on: June 18, 2004, 01:55:32 »
Indeed Wes!! Great info!

Well... hey, wes, do you know if HK is making an M16 FOW or just the receiver(U & L)?

Merci, all knowing dude!

Cheers.


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Re: AK74 vs C7
« Reply #17 on: June 18, 2004, 03:12:40 »
Sorry mate, I dont know that one, but HK did the upgrade for the A2 mods on the UK L85 (SA80). I had a look at one last November, and I have many pics I took of it and its LMG/LAR bigger brother. Colour coded firing pins, and springs, etc, plus HK marked too, and you should see the 30rd mag. Its like armour plated compared to what we are used to. All HK marked and totally redesigned. BTW its a standard M16 mag, and would fit in a C7, but being good quality steel, its most likely harder than the alloy reciever on the M16FOW.

As for M4 stuff, I had heard that FN was making some stuff, and ADI might even throw themselves into the ring too, but I cant confirm that. HK may indeed be doing some M4 related project also. All Australian M4s are Colts, and some Bushmaster XM15s in SF configuration with short 1/9" bbls, with an alloy floating tubular handguard.

The bulk of M16A1 rifles held in the sytstem are still all pre 1970 VN vintage 'lend lease' from the USA. M16A2s are not that common, but M4s are everywhere, along of course, with the ADI F88 Austeyr family of IWs.

The ADF buys a lot of stuff from FN (master rip off artists and heartless to no end), mainly spares for the QCB 12.7 x99mm M2, and MAG 58  & Minimi stuff. ADI makes some components for the Minimi. Plus we have purchased 'off the shelf' bulk (many thousand) MkIII 9 x19mm Browning Hi Powers to replace the aging fleet of L9A1s ( some going on 40 ys old) and yes, Cdn Inglis's too (all wartime [pre 1945] made).

But gossip wise, FN has developed a 7.62 x 51mm  (NATO) version of the Minimi. I have seen pics of it, but cant remember what its called. When I get back to the Unit on Monday, I'll find out.

I havent been in all week long do to cracking a rib on Monday (yes it was something foolish :blotto:), so I dont go back til this coming Monday.

Cheers,

Wes
"You've never lived until you've almost died; as for our freedom, for those of us who have fought for it, life has a flavour the protected will never know." - Anonymous

CI Dumaran

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Re: AK74 vs C7
« Reply #18 on: June 19, 2004, 06:52:26 »
yikes... you're ok now right?

LOL...

How'd to manage to break a rib? Well,

Thanks for the info.

Offline Carcharodon Carcharias

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Re: AK74 vs C7
« Reply #19 on: June 19, 2004, 07:56:16 »
Well kinda leaving my outdoor spa (40C) after a few too many Cdn Clubs and Coke, slipped somehow on my way out, with barely spilling a drop of my drink.

The next morning and thru the night a bit, it felt like I had been kicked in the ribs, so after a visit to the quack, and a few xrays etc, it was decided that I had a fracture in one of my ribs, and bruised the surrounding tissue, either way I got out of work for a week, and light duties for 10 days (til 30 Jun).

But it gets better in less than 2 wks I am on my way back to Saskatchewan for the month of July, and before you know it, after Christmas, I am posted! So, between August and December, time should fly, as I wont be home too much will taskings thru Oct and Nov.

Just a silly injury. End of story.


Cheer,

Wes
"You've never lived until you've almost died; as for our freedom, for those of us who have fought for it, life has a flavour the protected will never know." - Anonymous

Offline AZA-02

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Re: AK74 vs C7
« Reply #20 on: June 19, 2004, 20:14:38 »
Wes you could be the new host for the discovery Chanel show "Military clashes"
 :mg:                                                     :blotto:                                                    :fifty:
 :gunner:                                                       :crybaby:                                        :fifty:


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Re: AK74 vs C7
« Reply #21 on: June 23, 2004, 07:20:54 »
Wow Wes. You remind me of my uncle, he had the same line of work  in his RCEME days. He was one of the guys that had the thankless task of chopping up the Bren guns. Anyway what can you say about the 5.45mm rounds being frowned apon by the U.N. and NATO. I heard this ammunition likes to tumble allot and causes nasty little wounds, and is the 5.56mm much like it or less prone to tumbling?

Offline Troopasaurus

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Re: AK74 vs C7
« Reply #22 on: July 02, 2004, 02:14:56 »
The reason why the 5.45 round has a nasty tendancy to tumble is because they are hollowpoint rounds.

     ""to gain maximum effect from the 5.45mm bullet the designers have adopted a design that is very effective but outlawed by interational convention, for the steel-cored projectile has a hollow tip and the center of gravity far towards the rear to maintain the forward impetus and so tumple the bullet. In this way the small calibre bullet can have an effext on a target far in the excess of its cross sectional area." - straight from"The complete encyclopedia of modern military weapons"

In the M16 round this effect just occurs because of the velocity making the round unstable in flight (which may have been adjusted just for this effect - to cause massive damage while not relying on glaser rounds). The round the Russian designers made is specificly designed to tumble. UN and NATO do not like this because there is a treaty against the use of the glaser rounds and hollow points are considered glaser rounds. glaser rounds are any type of round that expands to cause more damage the ban only apply's to militaries using them against each other and obviously does not apply to terrorists and the like. This is also the reason why cutting notches into rounds is a offense in the military as it causes the round to expand.

kind of garbled but hopefully you get the point  ;)  :cam:

Offline Carcharodon Carcharias

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Re: AK74 vs C7
« Reply #23 on: July 02, 2004, 02:29:54 »
The 5.45 rd has a trajectory as straight as an arrow (as does the 5.56 too). Like all projectiles it tumbles when it hits mass, as does the 7.62 projectile also.Upon exiting mass the 7.62 projectile comes out backwords still carrying much of its energy!

Where as the 5.45 and 5.56 SS109 tumbles on impact, it dumps its energy into the mass, causing a large permanant cavity compared to the 7.62. Also frags of the jacket produce further injuries to organs, bone, and tissue. There is much energy dumped, but whats left also comes out reverse, causing a large exit hole too.

Fact, yes there is a small airspace in the 5.45 bullet, but so does the 5.56mm SS109 too. So who's copying who? I have cutaways of both types, and the ever so small airspace exists. I also have all the tabulated data on gelitin tests too. Interesting stuff.

In the long run, the effect of shock and trauma caused is effextive beyond doubt.

Anyways, I am jet lagged out and now gonna hit the farter and crash. Tomorrow is another day.

Cheers,

Wes
« Last Edit: July 02, 2004, 02:32:05 by Wesley H. Allen, CD »
"You've never lived until you've almost died; as for our freedom, for those of us who have fought for it, life has a flavour the protected will never know." - Anonymous

Offline KevinB

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Re: AK74 vs C7
« Reply #24 on: July 05, 2004, 00:39:25 »
AI2003,

Do you have a clue what you are talking about?


All boattail bullets yaw when they hit media, depending upon construction and the impact velocity some bullets (5.56mm in general) will fragment (this is achieved at lower impact velocities in bullets with a cannelure - due to its inherint weakening of the bullet jacket).  Longer bullets (i.e. the US Mk262 Mod0 and Mod1 77gr OTM rounds will have more forces directed upon them and will reliably fragemnet in humna tissue at velocities lower than M855/SS109 rounds.

 If you look at Sov bloc wound track of &.62x39 and 5.45x39 bullets they typically yaw and do not fragement.

Anyway I am to tired to deliver a lesson in terminal ballistics - for a comprehensive open source link please see.  http://www.ammo-oracle.com/
 

 
Kevin S. Boland
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FN America, LLC
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