Author Topic: Abortion Issues - Mega Thread [MERGED]  (Read 32207 times)

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Offline ArmyVern

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Re: Abortion Issues - Keep It Here
« Reply #50 on: March 24, 2012, 19:16:15 »
My problem with sexual health education within the school system is the bias that can be held. It is very difficult for a teacher, educating young people, on proper sexual health education. I do not believe, for the most part, that proper sexual health education is being taught in schools. (that is an entirely different topic though!) Inevitably, a teacher, will teach sexual health education, and almost any subject, with a bias. You can present all options, abstinence, birth control, condoms, Plan B, IUDs, but there will always be that kid, that looks at you and says, "but really what do YOU think, what do YOU practice?" Your opinion, is, unfortunately, out there, and that will impact a child's decision. It is a slippery slope.

In my opinion, proper sexual health education should start in the home, but I am not honestly sure if that occurs. However, I am woefully underqualified to pose as the morality police and dictate what parents should and shouldn't share with their children. it is a heavy subject to talk with young people about.

As for people being backwoods or God-fearing because they believe in abortion? There are many people, atheist, agnostic, or otherwise, that do not believe in abortion. I don't look down on them, just as I don't look down on someone choosing to terminate a pregnancy. See, my house is made of glass, and I really don't like rocks.

You know, teachers are asked their opinions on many matters, probably every day, by their students. I'd think that most teacher's would answer in an honest and forthright manner, "What I choose is my choice; you have to make your own choices based upon what's right for you."

You do not NOT teach something because someone might express an opinion. Nor do you make a law on what can be taught (or not) based on just one opinion. You teach ALL the options and keep the opinions out of it. Failing to allow the teaching of all the options means that you've allowed "an opinion" to determine what you will and will not educate those kids to; clearly, one of those major opinions is religious and allowing that opinion to rule and ensure that kids not be taught any/all the other options is not on.

Yes, I realize that all persons who believe in "abstinence is the best policy" do not feel that way due to religious opinion, but those people are NOT the ones trying to block the teaching of the other options. Don't want to get pregnant or end up with a sexually transmitted disease, then don't have sex. That'd be the obvious choice. But it is just a choice and just my opinion. So, I see no reasons why kids should not be taught all the choices because I know some/most simply are not going to abstain.

Regarding the glass house comment and the comment you also made in your earlier post:
I don't feel those who are anti-abortion are god fearing and backwoods and I certainly haven't said anything close to such in this thread to date ... just as all pro-life people don't think (and call) women who would have abortions godless and/or murdering baby-killers. See? That works both ways doesn't it?
« Last Edit: March 24, 2012, 19:20:18 by ArmyVern »
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Offline ttlbmg

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Re: Abortion Issues - Keep It Here
« Reply #51 on: March 24, 2012, 20:27:06 »
Yes, teachers are asked, everyday, on a regular basis, all sorts of opinion based questions on a number of things that most people wouldn't ask their friends and colleagues in social situations. And yes, teachers have to answer. Answering you have to make your own choice to a thirteen year old about their sexual health and contraceptive choices doesn't really satisfy that child. And many times, teachers are disciplined for expressing an opinion to their students or teaching something that they "shouldn't" to their students. However, that is not the point I am making. The point I am making is that the current curriculum for sexual health, equated with the time devoted to health education in general, coupled with the lack of direct monitoring within the education system, has left a great deal of sexual health education an untouched subject within our system. So many parents are left feeling as though the school has taught their child something, when that may not be the case. And in some districts and school systems, parents have actually fought to have their children removed from sexual health education, or to have that portion of health education, not taught in schools. I am saying the system is inadequate. This means that many young women and men are then making decisions about their sexual health without knowing the full story. What I am saying in terms of being a teacher, is that teachers can have a big impact on a child's thoughts and opinions. I don't know what I would hope a teacher would say to my son or daughter on this issue.

Does that mean showing a young woman or man an abortion will "fix" this problem? Does that mean that showing someone an ultrasound will give them a "better" understanding of the decision they have to make? No. Honestly, I think that there is a gap more in the area of possible father rights in terms of abortions. And jump on me if you will, but I think that there should be more of a focus on a prospective father knowing about the pregnancy, so that he may be involved in the decision making process. I'm not saying he should be driving the bus, but I think sometimes the male's feelings are completely disregarded in situations.

In terms of the glass house reference, that was made in regards to the poster below you, who specified looking down on people. Yes it goes both ways. I think that anyone that tries to push their agenda or opinion onto anyone needs to step back from that. We are all entitled to a viewpoint, regardless of that viewpoint. In the same token, we are all owed respect in regards to what our view might be.

Offline ArmyVern

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Re: Abortion Issues - Keep It Here
« Reply #52 on: March 24, 2012, 20:38:13 »
Yes, teachers are asked, everyday, on a regular basis, all sorts of opinion based questions on a number of things that most people wouldn't ask their friends and colleagues in social situations. And yes, teachers have to answer. Answering you have to make your own choice to a thirteen year old about their sexual health and contraceptive choices doesn't really satisfy that child. And many times, teachers are disciplined for expressing an opinion to their students or teaching something that they "shouldn't" to their students. However, that is not the point I am making. The point I am making is that the current curriculum for sexual health, equated with the time devoted to health education in general, coupled with the lack of direct monitoring within the education system, has left a great deal of sexual health education an untouched subject within our system. So many parents are left feeling as though the school has taught their child something, when that may not be the case. And in some districts and school systems, parents have actually fought to have their children removed from sexual health education, or to have that portion of health education, not taught in schools. I am saying the system is inadequate. This means that many young women and men are then making decisions about their sexual health without knowing the full story. What I am saying in terms of being a teacher, is that teachers can have a big impact on a child's thoughts and opinions. I don't know what I would hope a teacher would say to my son or daughter on this issue.

Does that mean showing a young woman or man an abortion will "fix" this problem? Does that mean that showing someone an ultrasound will give them a "better" understanding of the decision they have to make? No. Honestly, I think that there is a gap more in the area of possible father rights in terms of abortions. And jump on me if you will, but I think that there should be more of a focus on a prospective father knowing about the pregnancy, so that he may be involved in the decision making process. I'm not saying he should be driving the bus, but I think sometimes the male's feelings are completely disregarded in situations.

In terms of the glass house reference, that was made in regards to the poster below you, who specified looking down on people. Yes it goes both ways. I think that anyone that tries to push their agenda or opinion onto anyone needs to step back from that. We are all entitled to a viewpoint, regardless of that viewpoint. In the same token, we are all owed respect in regards to what our view might be.

First, the poster below me actually only made that comment based upon a quote from you. You brought it up. Why? In relation to what? Who were you speaking to?

Second, sounds like your local education system may be a wee bit skewed; that can be corrected via local, municple, school board elections etc. Where my kids went to school, in many boards, this didn't seem to be a problem. As for a 13 year old NOT being satisfied with a teachers answer of "you need to make your own choices and decide what's right for you" ... too bad for the 13 year old. 13 year old OFTEN do not get answers they like or agree with - ask ANY mom or dad of one, on a wide variety of subjects. It's NOT rocket science although you are trying to make it out to be. It is our jobs to educate kids NOT tell them what decisions I or they must make. It never has been.

WTF!!?? On the yellow bit? Where did you pull this from? Not one person in this thread has said that we should teach girls or boys ANYTHING about abortion, let alone that it will "fix" things. WTF!?

Suggest you need to re-read the thread because you're now pulling things out of your ***.
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Offline ttlbmg

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Re: Abortion Issues - Keep It Here
« Reply #53 on: March 24, 2012, 22:47:48 »
The "problem" the way that many conservative Americans view it, is that by showing someone considering an abortion a video on the procedure, or by requiring someone to have an internal ultrasound to view the fetus, that they will be overtaken by emotion and a sense of bonding, and therefore reconsider having an abortion. I was hoping to simply get back on the topic at hand.

It seems that you are taking my words out of context, and I am sorry you feel that way. The ironic part, I believe that we are on the same or similar sides of the fence, albeit our arguments in favor or against are different. I can tell you are very passionate one way. If nothing else, my minimal life experience has taught me to look at all sides. That is what I am simply trying to accomplish here. Just as I don't want to have someone impress their views upon me, I do not want to impress my opinions and beliefs on someone else.

Also, what you experience, one school system to another varies. Not all districts and provinces are the same. The literature put out by the province, division, or school is the ideal. Not all schools meet up with this for a variety of reasons. Again though, that is off topic, and a lack of education of sexual health and parents' refusal to allow their child that educational experience has nothing to do with anti-abortion or pro-abortion laws currently in the United States. I could rant on for years about the problems of the school system in Canada- but that is for another time and place.

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Re: Abortion Issues - Keep It Here
« Reply #54 on: March 25, 2012, 00:34:51 »
and a lack of education of sexual health and parents' refusal to allow their child that educational experience has nothing to do with anti-abortion or pro-abortion laws currently in the United States.

Actually it has more to do with the issue than you may think or be aware.

Sex ed is a very touchy subject when it comes to the religious socially conservative right, who form the vocal majority in the pro-life debate. The majority feel that it should be the responsibility of the parents only to teach their kids about sexuality and related issues. There is a very significant push to have abstinence only education as the only form of sexual education allowed in schools.

As such, it is a lack of information, or misguided information that leads to a large number of unwanted teen pregnancies. Which leads right back to the pro-choice / pro life debate.
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Offline ArmyVern

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Re: Abortion Issues - Keep It Here
« Reply #55 on: March 25, 2012, 10:26:39 »
It seems that you are taking my words out of context, and I am sorry you feel that way. The ironic part, I believe that we are on the same or similar sides of the fence, albeit our arguments in favor or against are different. I can tell you are very passionate one way. If nothing else, my minimal life experience has taught me to look at all sides. That is what I am simply trying to accomplish here. Just as I don't want to have someone impress their views upon me, I do not want to impress my opinions and beliefs on someone else.
...

You're right. I have already stated that I would never/could never have an abortion. That would never be the right choice for me. That does not mean that it would/could never be the right choice for someone else. As to the other side, I already laid out in my very first post in this thread why I do not agree with the "life from conception" - I have considered it, but for me - science, and survivability of a first trimester foetus have led to a different logical conclusion.

It is a choice. Just as they would never tell or push on me that I must have an abortion, I will not push on them that they must not have an abortion. Two way street - not just on my part. Anything less is hypocritical.
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Offline ttlbmg

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Re: Abortion Issues - Keep It Here
« Reply #56 on: March 25, 2012, 10:53:26 »
I agree with you on that point that it is a slippery slope. In terms of my children, I think it is my responsibility to teach them proper sexual health education. I think this comes easily for me, as I do not have to wrestle with a religious belief, and I think that would be a difficult thing to face. I think it also becomes an issue of access though as well. But then do you inform students about that as well? Teens can, without parental consent, obtain a prescription for contraceptives. And ideally, I would hope that a teen, choosing to have sex, would have the maturity to go out and access birth control. But then does that allotment of privacy out a wedge between parent and child? Would you want to know if your daughter was on birth control? I think I would so that we could talk about that. And again, I always use the example of a young girl, and I wish sometimes that I would put more thought in terms of young men. It is odd, I have two sons, and people always remark that I am lucky because neither will ever come home as a pregnant teen. I would hope that this mindset would change, and that not only would the weight of responsibility shift off the female, perhaps there would be more of a dialogue in terms of male parental rights.

I guess in all this talk, the point I hope to make is that I DON'T want to make that decision for someone else. As awkward as it sounds, for myself, I was pro-life-I felt I would not get an abortion, regardless of the circumstance I was in thankfully I never had to make this decision). For other people, I am pro-choice. I would hope that the choice would be well thought out, but I can't and do not want to dictate what other people do.

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Re: Abortion Issues - Keep It Here
« Reply #57 on: March 27, 2012, 17:14:44 »
This is pretty good:  It Matters to Me
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Offline ttlbmg

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Re: Abortion Issues - Keep It Here
« Reply #58 on: March 27, 2012, 18:15:17 »
Interesting, and so relevent. I hope that this image is changing. (I'd love to see shows like Jersey Shore go off the air! That and Sixteen and Pregnant- I was hoping at one point that show would send a better message, but it doesn't seem to, though I will admit I have never sat through an entire episode) Do you think that this is as prevalent in Canada as it is in the US?

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Re: Abortion Issues - Keep It Here
« Reply #59 on: March 27, 2012, 21:18:12 »
Do you think that this is as prevalent in Canada as it is in the US?

If the number of young girls I see running around like it's "Dress Like a Hooker" day (thanks JM) every day, is any indication, I'd say yes.
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Offline ttlbmg

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Re: Abortion Issues - Keep It Here
« Reply #60 on: March 27, 2012, 22:18:24 »
Ha, I guess so. I sometimes think that we have a little less of the conservative-traditional viewpoint within the government that we see in the US. Although so much of their culture seems to leak into Canada.

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Re: Abortion Issues - Keep It Here
« Reply #61 on: March 27, 2012, 22:21:03 »
Interesting, and so relevent. I hope that this image is changing. (I'd love to see shows like Jersey Shore go off the air! That and Sixteen and Pregnant- I was hoping at one point that show would send a better message, but it doesn't seem to, though I will admit I have never sat through an entire episode) Do you think that this is as prevalent in Canada as it is in the US?

Hmm let me think...we had a teenager when I was in training that delivered her second kid, and was only 15.  Helped deliver a number of kids with moms in the 16-18 age range, and have seen my fair share of teenage chlamydia and gonorrhea.  I'd have to say yes.

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Offline Hamish Seggie

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Re: Abortion Issues - Keep It Here
« Reply #62 on: March 28, 2012, 07:59:47 »
Tangent here: Just a question.

Can teen pregnancy be generational. By this I mean can there be a history of teen pregancy within a family.

Grandma - married, pregnant at sixteen - not unusual in "the olden days"
Mom - same story but she was nineteen
GrandDaughter - same story as Mom
Great Granddaughters - pregant/unmarried at sixteen or so.

Just a question.

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Re: Abortion Issues - Keep It Here
« Reply #63 on: March 28, 2012, 09:21:10 »
I wouldn't say it's generational, but something can be said about kids getting the idea that it's acceptable because everyone else in the family did (you know that weird way of thinking that teenagers have).  Take it one step further and if you live in an area where it's the norm, then not only is it acceptable, it's apparently what's supposed to be done.

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Re: Abortion Issues - Keep It Here
« Reply #64 on: March 28, 2012, 09:27:54 »
Jim,

from personal observation I can say that in Indiana, where I worked for a couple of years, 36 year old grandmothers were not uncommon.  The difference between your proposal and their situation was that everybody was married.

Baby = 0
Mother = 18
Grandmother = 36
Great Grandmother = 54
Great Great Grandmother = 72
Great Great Great Grandmother = 90

All perfectly legal, and traditional, and welcomed.  And often you found the entire extended family living within a couple of blocks of each other.   

The difference is that Great Great Great Grandmother may have been married as young as 15.

As Mr. Campbell is fond of saying:  Culture matters.
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Re: Abortion Issues - Keep It Here
« Reply #65 on: March 29, 2012, 08:44:30 »
Oklahoma judge overrules state law requiring ultrasound before abortion

An Oklahoma County judge has overruled a state law requiring women seeking abortions to have an ultrasound of the fetus before the abortion, according to court documents.

District Judge Brian Dixon's clerk confirmed the decision Wednesday, saying the judge ruled that the law was "unconstitutional and unenforceable."

More at link

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Offline Hamish Seggie

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Re: Abortion Issues - Keep It Here
« Reply #66 on: March 29, 2012, 08:45:45 »
Oklahoma judge overrules state law requiring ultrasound before abortion

An Oklahoma County judge has overruled a state law requiring women seeking abortions to have an ultrasound of the fetus before the abortion, according to court documents.

District Judge Brian Dixon's clerk confirmed the decision Wednesday, saying the judge ruled that the law was "unconstitutional and unenforceable."

More at link

 :goodpost:




Concur
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Offline MAJONES

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Re: Abortion Issues - Keep It Here
« Reply #67 on: March 29, 2012, 11:48:28 »
Techno's argument is well put.  Every person has the right to control their own body.  The conflict arises when what you want to do with your body affects somebody else.  The real question is when does a fetus become a person?  Once the fetus is a person it is no longer just a part of a woman's body.
Another way to look at this is through a heirarchy of rights; certain rights take precedence over others.  This is well established in law.  Once the fetus is a person it has the right to safety of person.  It is pretty clear that, (in most cases), this right is going to take precedence over a woman's right to do what she wants with her body.
As was stated above, the whole crux of this problem is determining when the fetus makes the transition from a being a mass of cells to being a person.  It would be difficult to argue that it becomes a person at the time of conception.  It would be just as difficult to argue that it is not a person until it is born.  Quite a dilemma.
As for Techno's pictures; never be afraid to show it like it is.

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Re: Abortion Issues - Keep It Here
« Reply #68 on: March 29, 2012, 11:57:03 »
I'll remember that next time there's a thread on STDs or beheadings.

Exactly.

As far as when the fetus is a person: I tend to agree with ArmyVern, when it can survive outside of the mother's body (my opinion only).
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Re: Abortion Issues - Keep It Here
« Reply #69 on: March 29, 2012, 11:57:52 »
Let's start off with a lock for the moment - more to follow, I'm sure.

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Offline ArmyVern

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Re: The Next Conservative Leader
« Reply #70 on: May 28, 2017, 16:21:08 »
And so the CPC have elected another anti-abortion, same-sex-marriage opposing, regressive social conservation as leader. ...
The CPC needs to be courting my generation better. They failed to do so. The old social-regressive dog just don't hunt anymore with us...

You do realize that Parliament saw a free vote on the matter of same-sex marriage and that every single party had members who voted to oppose it as well as those who supported it? 

Abortion and same-sex marriage are NOT relegated realms of one political party or another.  I'm a social libertarian who happens to be a  staunch fiscal conservative as well.  The social side is already enshrined in law and well-protected, but the requirement to be responsible with the tax payers dime is not and ergo the Liberals and NDP will not be seeing my vote any time soon.

So tired of the "social-regressive" label put on anything Big C or little c.  What bunk - superior morality is not the domain of the Liberals or NDP alone.
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Re: Re: The Next Conservative Leader
« Reply #71 on: May 28, 2017, 16:24:01 »
You do realize that Parliament saw a free vote on the matter of same-sex marriage and that every single party had members who voted to oppose it as well as those who supported it? 

Abortion and same-sex marriage are NOT relegated realms of one political party or another.  I'm a social libertarian who happens to be a  staunch fiscal conservative as well.  The social side is already enshrined in law and well-protected, but the requirement to be responsible with the tax payers dime is not and ergo the Liberals and NDP will not be seeing my vote any time soon.

So tired of the "social-regressive" label put on anything Big C or little c.  What bunk - superior morality is not the domain of the Liberals or NDP alone.
Well that escalated. Can't we all just get along;)


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Offline ArmyVern

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Re: Re: The Next Conservative Leader
« Reply #72 on: May 28, 2017, 16:27:31 »
Well that escalated. Can't we all just get along;)


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Escalation? No.  Just tired of the same old morally superior inferior stereotypes that always come up when discussing anything conservative.  It's crap.  I know homophobic Liberals, NDPers and Conservatives. Even Trudeau 1.0 only wanted to legalize abortion under very certain conditions.  Courts sorted that out.
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Re: Re: The Next Conservative Leader
« Reply #73 on: May 28, 2017, 16:31:33 »
Escalation? No.  Just tired of the same old morally superior inferior stereotypes that always come up when discussing anything conservative.  It's crap.  I know homophobic Liberals, NDPers and Conservatives.
The issue of late is labelling people as left/right/con/lib etc. I agree with parts of all parties and disagree with others. Come election time vote as one decides (ideology, party, individual, issue etc) using all info available. This whole right vs left stuff is not on. Have a great day.


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Re: Re: The Next Conservative Leader
« Reply #74 on: May 28, 2017, 18:33:52 »
Courts sorted that out.

Not really. The Supreme Court merely trashed the law of the time, and nobody's dared/bothered to replace that legislation since then, so it's just a free-for-all.

And no Western civilization produces enough children to maintain its population anymore.