Author Topic: Africa in Crisis- The Merged Superthread  (Read 230094 times)

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Offline Patrick H.

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Africa in Crisis- The Merged Superthread
« on: November 14, 2003, 10:14:00 »
I am just wondering what kind of, if any, strategies Canada, or any nation, is using to help eliminate inter-tribal war, resistance fighting, and governmental death squads in areas such as Sudan and Bahr-al-Ghazal, Africa. I know with the current monetary situation plagueing our military we can barely afford to keep up the peacekeeping missions that we have committed ourselves to in Bosnia, etc.

If no strategies are in place, what do you think should be done? I think we‘ve overlooked the violence and arms trades going on in the North and South Africas and should attempt to ease their sufferings instead of brushing it off our shoulders. I am not implying that we have to embark upon some massive crusade to completely remove the aforementioned dilemmas and create a unified and peaceful Africa, but there has to be something we can do.

What are your thoughts?
« Last Edit: May 06, 2017, 14:23:22 by kratz »
Some mornings it just doesn't seem worth it to gnaw through the leather straps.

"It isn't what you've lost, but what you have left." - My great Uncle Daniel J MacDonald, Veteran Affairs Minister 1972.

Offline Gunnar

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Re: Africa in Crisis- The Merged Superthread
« Reply #1 on: November 14, 2003, 10:25:00 »
Put a big wall around Africa, drop in lots of guns and ammo, and stay away?
If you are not prepared to use force to defend civilization, then be prepared to accept barbarism --Thomas Sowell

Liberalism is a philosophy of consolation for the West as it commits suicide.

Offline Dano

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Re: Africa in Crisis- The Merged Superthread
« Reply #2 on: November 14, 2003, 10:39:00 »
I totally agree that nations including ourselfs have over looked the violence and poverty in Africa; to the extent of military operations and mobilzations. Canada and other G8 nations does recognize that Africa is in turmoil. Reason why large scale operations are not in motion is becouse we are North American, The president does‘ent run the country, big time CEO‘s of US and Canada run things in North America. They won‘t step foot in Africa for one reason; No profit. Why wage war in a country that has less value then waging war in Iraq, Its for Oil. The US government are the modern day Nazi‘s, They enfornce their beliefs, their values on countrys; for example; are not Christian, or are Anti-American. That is my thought on it.
The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.
- Martin Luther King Jr., Strength to Love, 1963

Offline Gumby

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Re: Africa in Crisis- The Merged Superthread
« Reply #3 on: November 14, 2003, 11:38:00 »
Dano, don‘t you think that‘s pushing it a bit far?  "modern day nazi‘s"  come on, if anyone is racist its you, that kind of **** is not called for.  I don‘t think it was really necessary to go that far.  Your points may have some value to them but come on.
Perfer et obdura; dolor hic tibi proderit olim

fusilier955

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Re: Africa in Crisis- The Merged Superthread
« Reply #4 on: November 14, 2003, 12:40:00 »
the trouble with africa is a long and complicated story.  to fix one problem, you have to fix many others.  it stems from the fact many countries in africa were colonies that european countries controled.
 
the europeans took the land‘s resources to get rich, and in turn provided an infastructure for the country.  after colonialism abolished, the pulling out of these governing countries ment that the infastructure was taken as well, and the economy and government crumbled.  poverty took hold over many of these countries, and political vaccums were yet to be filled.

in the place of these european governments, new corupt governments took hold.  when aid money was given to these governments they did what they call top down development all the leaders of the government took the money and spent it on luxury items (cars, jewlery), or the military to insure that they stay in power and can guard their riches, as to feeding hungry mouths of the masses.

then these poor nations were taken over essentally by commercial companies, this is called neo colonialism.  they provided the infastructure the europeans did, and in turn they get cheap labour.

the new infastructure does not offer public education, clean drinking water, food, or adiquite housing.  if you try to supply these things the government in power will take them and use them for themselves.  if you offer education, most will not go, because they  need the money to live off of to buy what little food they can.  you cant get the corperations out, the government wont let them becuase they are cut a share of profits.  you cant take the gov‘t out, who will take over? (no country wants the job really).  so the government is without check really, and they go around what they like.

there is no education to better the people and rise above it by making a living.  they are for the majority of nations illiterate.  some countries are so uneducated that some married couples dont know how to consimate their mariages.

in the worst parts of africa peacekeepers are sent to insure that some of the people get the things like water and food.  also to allow the fighting to stop when they are present, just for awhile so some people have time to get out of the area, and just as they leave it starts back up.  the underlining problem is the government there, and no one wants to take it out.  if the gov‘t is taken out, who will govern?  and if someone steps up, you have to bring a country out of the "dark ages" in many aspects (ie- open sewers, communication, government services, education) to the rest of the developed world.

with the take on the problem right now, not much can be done.  if there is to be change, there would have to be some pretty enginutive plans to pull it off.  what the world is doing right now, is as close to the best as you are going to get.  there is so much red tape, and a spider web of connected problems.

that is just my 2 cents.

Offline Padraig OCinnead

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Re: Africa in Crisis- The Merged Superthread
« Reply #5 on: November 14, 2003, 13:08:00 »
What do you call the missions to Somalia, Rwanda, Eritrea, Congo, Rwanda (again), Mozambique, and Congo (again)? These are all missions that the UN and Canada as part of most of the missions (if not all) that have taken place in the continent of Africa. Some lasted years. It isn‘t just financial aid, civil support, infrastructure rebuilding and yet more financial aid/grants that will help our fellow people there. They must want too as well. You can throw good money after bad for years to come, yet until fundamental changes from the top to bottom and back up again happen very little will happen.

Why not educate themselves? Eradicate illiteracy? Make them understand about STD‘s. Get the bloody church out of there with their anti-birth control views and give out 50 condoms with every 3 ltrs of petrol, or every loaf of bread. Keep their own money that they are making from diamonds, lumber, gold, coffee etc etc instead of foreign financial institutions.  Sure we could offer advice, equal trade and other things along the way but it should be more so as equals instead of financialy dominant superpower and poor 3rd world country. Kinda like the rest of the world trades.


Dano. C‘mon pally. As soon as any comparision to 3rd Reich Nazy Germany is made all sensible arguments go out the window and are ignored. I have yet to see millions of dead Jews being burnt, destroyed and buried in mass graves anywhere in USA. I have not seen desert boot wearing Marines marching down my main street here in Kingston. I was even able to watch my neighbours go to church last sunday. Next time, breathe deep, have another puff/drink/bite and then reply to a post.

But I‘m just a dim soldier...


VVV

Offline Patrick H.

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Re: Africa in Crisis- The Merged Superthread
« Reply #6 on: November 14, 2003, 13:36:00 »
I don‘t really believe that a lack of oil is preventing international assistances to parts of Africa. Correct me if I am wrong, but doesn‘t Sudan have oil fields? I read that the Sudanese government spends their profit from the oil on small arms to fight rebels in the south instead of supplying food and water to it‘s starving populace.

How effective were these missions to Rwanda, Mozambique etc? What kind of assisstance does the UN supply today?

If anything, I believe the dissolution of the arms trade would help significantly. I realize that it is a major economic business, and quite frankly, would take some time to even have the most minimal gain because of the exorbinant amount of guns. There are 33 million in Sub-Saharan Africa alone.

Wouldn‘t that be a start? if not already started, then how else do you think we could improve the process?
Some mornings it just doesn't seem worth it to gnaw through the leather straps.

"It isn't what you've lost, but what you have left." - My great Uncle Daniel J MacDonald, Veteran Affairs Minister 1972.

Offline Padraig OCinnead

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Re: Africa in Crisis- The Merged Superthread
« Reply #7 on: November 14, 2003, 14:25:00 »
How do you stop the arms trade into there? You‘re not going to just ask these people (the Weapons dealers) to stop selling weapons are you? You might as well ask Ronald to stop selling BigMacs.

Besides, 800 000 (+/-)Rwandans were killed using machetes. Not many Ak‘s used there. The Sudanese Govt should do what to the rebels? Use nerf guns? If they want to keep their oil fields they better use bigger/more/better weapons than their opponents. I don‘t support or disavow any side in that conflict but am merely pointing out what might be just simplification.


Weapons trade is a big part of these troubles but if it wasn‘t weapons it would be spears, machetes, IED‘s, stones. It‘s what the weapons are being brought in to protect or destroy that must be addressed. Money! In the shape of that continents resources. Do we have the Brittish, Dutch, Americans sending companies into our land to pillage the land and them di di out once there is nothing left?  That‘s right, we don‘t.  Once they control their own trade and economy they can start building again. Corruption is a human fault and not ethnically orientated. We got it here they‘ll have it there.  It will take as long as it has already been since the good times went to pot. Whats that, 2 centuries? Longer? An example would be Canadas First Nations. Since whites set foot here in Canada they have suffered and have only now started to be where they once were. They still have a long way to go.

Offline Patrick H.

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Re: Africa in Crisis- The Merged Superthread
« Reply #8 on: November 14, 2003, 15:32:00 »
Excellent points, Padraig and Fusilier.  

As you have stated, there are major companies dependant on Africa‘s resources and labour for their profits. I guess we cannot simply ask them to cease their careers and jeopardize the sustainability of their corporations after they‘ve already been woven into society‘s commercial fabric. Does anyone know which country profits the most from African exports?

Africa, it seems, is a landfill for the world‘s militaries to dump their aging weaponry at cheap prices. When you can get an AK-47 for merely a few pieces of chicken, you are right, there is not much we can do from stopping the purchasing of them. Especially in a country where guns are obligatory for survival.

What is the timeframe for the deaths of those 800,000 Rwandans?
Some mornings it just doesn't seem worth it to gnaw through the leather straps.

"It isn't what you've lost, but what you have left." - My great Uncle Daniel J MacDonald, Veteran Affairs Minister 1972.

Offline Padraig OCinnead

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Re: Africa in Crisis- The Merged Superthread
« Reply #9 on: November 14, 2003, 18:29:00 »
It was around April of ‘94. The year after we came back from Somalia. The Rwandan president and the Leading Opposition leader were in a plane. They were on their way to Kigali to discuss  a merging or two-party leadership sort of thing.

Anyways hard liners shot the plane down, blamed it on the Tutsis and started the masacre. The Rebel Tutsi Army tried to move in and prevent their people from getting the hack. Along the way there were reprisals after reprisals. In the end the Hutus were chased out of the country into the Congo next door to the west. You saw their pics in the huge camp run by the U.N.

It stopped by the time we got there in Aug of 94.

fusilier955

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Re: Africa in Crisis- The Merged Superthread
« Reply #10 on: November 14, 2003, 19:51:00 »
it was on the history channel not to long ago, they air it every so often.  apparently a canadian BGen was incharge while **** hit the fan.  the UN tied his hands and he had to sit and watch, this was all after the incident in somalia in which the movie "blackhawk down" is based on (which is the reason why the UN said no, because they didnt want another incident).  the majority of the people killed in the masacre was over a span of 10 days.  it was sad watching the general now retired, talk about those bloody 10 days, you could see it in his eyes he just stared off like he was still in disbelief.  it was a graphic documentation.(not visually, but discriptively)

Offline Padraig OCinnead

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Re: Africa in Crisis- The Merged Superthread
« Reply #11 on: November 14, 2003, 21:28:00 »
Fusilier995,

I know his name but will not mention it publicly on these means. I wonder how much we hear from the soldiers that were there, the ones who werent spending their working hours in a secured guarded enclosed building. How many of them had instances of AWOL, and drunkeness excused? I feel a bit strongly about this issue and don‘t feel inclined to give sympathy to him when so many others just had to suck it up and ruck on.

Somalia may have played a part. But I am not sure, as the main players in Somalia were not in Rwanda. Different chapter types as well. Other than the Belgiques there were few other Western armies there before late July ‘94. We just were dealing with the various UN departments viewing the same info in a different light. Besides, it was probably on a weekend or a Friday afternonn and they were all down at the local golf course/trendy restaurant or villa in upstate NY.
VVV

northamericanrebel

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Re: Africa in Crisis- The Merged Superthread
« Reply #12 on: November 15, 2003, 00:27:00 »
Dano...you have a cage waiting for you down at GITMO with your name on it  :)

northamericanrebel

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Re: Africa in Crisis- The Merged Superthread
« Reply #13 on: November 15, 2003, 00:29:00 »
I mean...lets be frank...thats where uneducated scum belongs...am I not right???

Offline Patrick H.

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Re: Africa in Crisis- The Merged Superthread
« Reply #14 on: November 15, 2003, 01:16:00 »
Being opinionated does not necessarily imply that he is uneducated. Let‘s try to not get sidetracked here.
Some mornings it just doesn't seem worth it to gnaw through the leather straps.

"It isn't what you've lost, but what you have left." - My great Uncle Daniel J MacDonald, Veteran Affairs Minister 1972.

northamericanrebel

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Re: Africa in Crisis- The Merged Superthread
« Reply #15 on: November 15, 2003, 11:13:00 »
"The US government are the modern day Nazi‘s"....hmmm... you take a look at that statement....

Offline Padraig OCinnead

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Re: Africa in Crisis- The Merged Superthread
« Reply #16 on: November 15, 2003, 12:14:00 »
Let‘s not get wrapped up around the axle over a guy saying something before thinking it through.

I mean of all the things to say that accusation is pretty foolish. Free speech and all sometimes means having to hear the odd foolish remark in all the smart, well thought out comments. I have my own views on USA. But being similar to nazy Germany has never been one  of them.

NorthAmericanRebel. Thickening your skin a bit will get you through life‘s little barbs much easier. When I saw my Nations flag upside down in Georgia at some game I didn‘t do much more than frown and then get over it.Besides aren‘t you a rough old construction worker? lol

VVV

northamericanrebel

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Re: Africa in Crisis- The Merged Superthread
« Reply #17 on: November 15, 2003, 15:10:00 »
:p  not old yet  :p   getten there tho

Offline Patrick H.

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Re: Africa in Crisis- The Merged Superthread
« Reply #18 on: November 15, 2003, 16:36:00 »
Padraig, just wondering..

Based on the information you‘ve given, would I be right in saying you have some first-hand experience overseas and in situations of similar context?
Some mornings it just doesn't seem worth it to gnaw through the leather straps.

"It isn't what you've lost, but what you have left." - My great Uncle Daniel J MacDonald, Veteran Affairs Minister 1972.

Offline Padraig OCinnead

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Re: Africa in Crisis- The Merged Superthread
« Reply #19 on: November 15, 2003, 17:10:00 »
You would be very right.

I was both in Somalia and Rwanda a year later. And then a couple others since.

Offline Patrick H.

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Re: Africa in Crisis- The Merged Superthread
« Reply #20 on: November 15, 2003, 19:08:00 »
Wow.

What exactly did you do? I recently wrote a paper on Africa for my english class and it has been on my mind ever since. I want to know as much as I can about what is going on.

Would you mind telling me about your experiences? I think that would be a very interesting perspective.
Some mornings it just doesn't seem worth it to gnaw through the leather straps.

"It isn't what you've lost, but what you have left." - My great Uncle Daniel J MacDonald, Veteran Affairs Minister 1972.

Offline Padraig OCinnead

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Re: Africa in Crisis- The Merged Superthread
« Reply #21 on: November 15, 2003, 20:31:00 »
Do you want me to e-mail you a bit?

Offline Patrick H.

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Re: Africa in Crisis- The Merged Superthread
« Reply #22 on: November 15, 2003, 21:19:00 »
That would be very awesome of you. My email address is in my profile so feel free to drop me a line.
Some mornings it just doesn't seem worth it to gnaw through the leather straps.

"It isn't what you've lost, but what you have left." - My great Uncle Daniel J MacDonald, Veteran Affairs Minister 1972.

Offline Padraig OCinnead

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Re: Africa in Crisis- The Merged Superthread
« Reply #23 on: November 16, 2003, 16:02:00 »
Give me a couple of days and I‘ll send you a bit. Some pics as well. Mind you this is from a soldier‘s point of view. It might not necessarily be what you are looking for but I‘ll put together a few things and e-mail it off in by Tues or Wed.

Cheers

gotta go eat my Sunday dinner.

donkon

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Re: Africa in Crisis- The Merged Superthread
« Reply #24 on: November 16, 2003, 19:05:00 »
I know the french foreign legion is stationed there and they constantly have missions there. Not really sure about the whole story but i am getting a book about the FFL this week so i will let you know when i read about it.