Author Topic: Op IMPACT: CAF in the Iraq & Syria crisis  (Read 520462 times)

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Online Chris Pook

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Re: Op IMPACT: CAF in the Iraq & Syria crisis
« Reply #50 on: October 09, 2014, 12:49:46 »
Why the " ::) " ?

Are you disagreeing with Mulcair suggesting "the mathematically impossible: 'Thousands or tens of thousands of [Canadian] veterans' "?  Or is it the bit about Trudeau resorting to "tasteless, nonsensical jokes"?

I certainly hope you're not taking issue with "Canada's participation in the international coalition against ISIL deserved more high-minded debate," because that is most assuredly true.



ps - They transcribe their own name from Arabic as "Al Jazeera," and as they note with all publications in their Opinion pages: "The views expressed in this article are the author's own and do not necessarily reflect Al Jazeera's editorial policy."

I'm with Journeyman on this one.  I can't find anything to object to in the article.

Actually, I am starting to see Al Jazeera in a new light.  It seems to be supplying more attempts to be "even-handed".  At least as much as any heirs of the pamphleteers are even-handed.
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Re: Op IMPACT: CAF in the Iraq & Syria crisis
« Reply #51 on: October 09, 2014, 13:03:40 »
I have to agree.  The article makes some very very valid points.
Optio

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Re: Op IMPACT: CAF in the Iraq & Syria crisis
« Reply #52 on: October 09, 2014, 15:23:48 »
6 aircraft is hardly a fleet.  It's rather embarrassing.

It is 6 more than we have there now.  Plus the other assets going.  Comparably, what % of the Army (F Ech types) were deployed to the sandbox at any one time?  Certainly not all, but our contribution there wasn't seen as "embarrassing" right? What % of the Army does the current SOF contribution equal?    While this op will go, there is still the other "stuff" these units do day to day that still must be done.

The crews going into this one might not like the thought of their own fellow service personnel referring to what they are doing as "embarrassing", no matter how 'small' the force there may be/seem to be.

 :2c:
« Last Edit: October 09, 2014, 15:30:59 by Eye In The Sky »
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Online Remius

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Re: Op IMPACT: CAF in the Iraq & Syria crisis
« Reply #53 on: October 09, 2014, 15:58:45 »
It is 6 more than we have there now.  Plus the other assets going.  Comparably, what % of the Army (F Ech types) were deployed to the sandbox at any one time?  Certainly not all, but our contribution there wasn't seen as "embarrassing" right? What % of the Army does the current SOF contribution equal?    While this op will go, there is still the other "stuff" these units do day to day that still must be done.

The crews going into this one might not like the thought of their own fellow service personnel referring to what they are doing as "embarrassing", no matter how 'small' the force there may be/seem to be.

 :2c:

I don't think anyone here thinks what they are doing is embarrassing.  Just that the some people including myself don't think that it's anywhere near what's needed.  And I'm not just refering to our contribution either. 
Optio

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Re: Op IMPACT: CAF in the Iraq & Syria crisis
« Reply #54 on: October 09, 2014, 21:12:18 »
Why the " ::) " ?

Are you disagreeing with Mulcair suggesting "the mathematically impossible: 'Thousands or tens of thousands of [Canadian] veterans' "?  Or is it the bit about Trudeau resorting to "tasteless, nonsensical jokes"?

I certainly hope you're not taking issue with "Canada's participation in the international coalition against ISIL deserved more high-minded debate," because that is most assuredly true.

ps - They transcribe their own name from Arabic as "Al Jazeera," and as they note with all publications in their Opinion pages: "The views expressed in this article are the author's own and do not necessarily reflect Al Jazeera's editorial policy."

I was not sure about how others were interpreting this article. That is why I put Roll Eyes, expecting some comments.
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Re: Op IMPACT: CAF in the Iraq & Syria crisis
« Reply #55 on: October 15, 2014, 16:12:07 »
The Foreign Minister's office has posted of photo of him with personnel in Camp Canada in Kuwait.



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Re: Op IMPACT: CAF in the Iraq & Syria crisis
« Reply #56 on: October 15, 2014, 19:35:47 »
Now that the overall "fight against ISIS/ISIL" is called Op Inherent Resolve, the CF has an op name, too - from the Info-machine Fact Sheet:
Quote
Operation IMPACT is the Canadian Armed Forces’ (CAF) contribution to coalition assistance to security forces in the Republic of Iraq who are fighting against the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (ISIL).

The Government of Canada has extended the CAF mission for up to six months ....
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Re: Op IMPACT: CAF in the Iraq & Syria crisis
« Reply #57 on: October 15, 2014, 21:07:08 »
The Foreign Minister's office has posted of photo of him with personnel in Camp Canada in Kuwait.



Grip and grin ...

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Re: Op IMPACT: CAF in the Iraq & Syria crisis
« Reply #58 on: October 15, 2014, 21:18:41 »
Tfc Tech MCpl had one too many coffee at breakfast...

And he should stand closer to the f$$kin razor when he shaves.....
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Re: Op IMPACT: CAF in the Iraq & Syria crisis
« Reply #59 on: October 17, 2014, 07:49:28 »
Former Prime Minister Jean Chrétien provides his assessment of what Canada is and should be doing in Iraq/the 'war' against IS** in this article which is reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act from the Globe and Mail:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-debate/canadas-true-role-in-the-mideast-conflict/article21138349/#dashboard/follows/
Quote

Canada’s true role in the Mideast conflict

JEAN CHRÉTIEN
Contributed to The Globe and Mail

Published Friday, Oct. 17 2014

When I travel to any corner of Canada, complete strangers from every walk of life come up to me on street corners, in restaurants, in airports, to take a moment to talk to me. Sometimes, they thank me for my service during my long career in public life.

There is one sentence that I hear over and over again: “Mr. Chrétien, thank you for keeping us out of the war in Iraq.” It is gratifying to hear, because that decision, more than 10 years ago, was not easy. The country was divided. Many columnists, pundits and editorialists were in favour of participating. Some within my own party disagreed with me, the business community opposed me, and no one was a louder critic than Stephen Harper, then leader of the Official Opposition. He even went on U.S. television and wrote an article in The Wall Street Journal denouncing the Canadian government’s policy.

Today, there is almost universal recognition that we made the right decision. And so, in recent weeks, many people have asked me what I would do about the current situation in Iraq and Syria. Do I agree with Mr. Harper’s position or Mr. Trudeau’s? What should Canada do?

Here is my answer. ‎

There is no more serious decision for an elected official than sending men and women into conflict. The consequences, at home and abroad, are enormous. A wrong decision, such as the invasion of Iraq in 2003, can have disastrous results that reverberate for years. The current rise of the Islamic State is in large part a result of that war.

I know what it is like to send Canadians into combat. The government I led participated in multilateral combat missions in both Kosovo and Afghanistan because we determined that it was the best contribution Canada could make in those very difficult circumstances. ‎So I am not always opposed to sending Canadians into combat. But these are decisions that must be made with utmost seriousness and consideration. In general, it should also be done with a clear mandate and under the umbrella of the United Nations or the North Atlantic Treaty Organization, which is clearly not the case here.

We have an obligation to proceed with the utmost caution, and to weigh all the potential consequences before joining a combat mission.

For example, all the war in Iraq did was to make the region and the world a much more dangerous place. The legacy of colonialism in the Middle East had not been forgotten and was only exacerbated by the Western military intervention in Iraq in 2003, with the consequences we face today. Unfortunately, Mr. Harper did not understand that history in 2003, and he does not understand it today.

The current situation is in some ways very different from 2003. The Islamic State’s atrocities must be stopped. But Western countries must be cognizant of the region’s history in deciding how to act.

There are two components to the crisis – one military and one humanitarian. Both must be addressed.

The Iraqi government has asked for U.S. assistance and President Barack Obama has responded with air strikes. But given the history of the region and the sensitivities to Western military interventions, I believe that any U.S.-led military coalition should be composed mainly of Arab countries, with minimal participation by other Western countries.

I have enormous‎ admiration for the men and women of the Canadian armed forces. But the reality is that the military contribution Mr. Harper’s government has authorized will be very marginal.

What it really does is to add Canada to a list of contributing Western countries. The history of the Middle East tells us that this list should be very short, not long.

‎No one underestimates the Islamic State. But the issues are the best ways to combat it and the best contributions Canada can make. ‎If the region sees military intervention as just another knee-jerk Western show of force, we all know what the long-term consequences will be.

This is why I believe the best ‎contribution Canada can make is by engaging in massive, not token, humanitarian assistance. It is why in answer to the questions asked of me, I support Mr. Trudeau’s position.

The Islamic State has created a massive humanitarian crisis. Hundreds of thousands of people have been displaced. Neighbouring countries are dealing with floods of refugees. The World Food Program is almost out of funds and winter is approaching.

The Prime Minister may believe that not participating in the combat mission means Canada will be sitting on the sidelines. He is absolutely wrong – Canada should be on the front line, addressing the humanitarian crisis.

‎For well over 50 years, it has been the Canadian way to open our hearts, our doors and our wallets to victims of great upheavals – Hungarians in the 1950s, Ugandans in the 1970s, Vietnamese boat people in the 1980s, refugees from the former Yugoslavia in the 1990s. And I am always thrilled by the great contribution they make after arriving.

Here are two concrete initiatives I would recommend for Mr. Harper to put Canada on the front lines of the humanitarian crisis while a U.S.-led, primarily Arab coalition focuses on the military crisis.

First, Canada should offer to immediately take 50,000 refugees fleeing the Islamic State. I hope the government will move on this quickly.

Second, the government should immediately allocate $100-million‎ for the World Food Program, to help feed refugees facing a harsh winter.

I understand that faced with the barbarism of the Islamic State, many Canadians want their leaders to respond swiftly. It is a natural reaction and is praiseworthy. It’s exactly what I am proposing as a natural extension of Mr. Trudeau’s decision and Canada’s long-standing tradition.


As usual Prime Minister Chrétien tells half truths and gets things half right, albeit for the wrong reasons.

Why didn't we join the USA, in some way, in 2003? They were asking for 'moral support,' political and diplomatic support, not "boots the ground." The reason is simple, Prime Minister Chrétien, unlike Mr Harper and even then Minister of Everything John Manley and most of the punditry, correctly 'read' the Canadian mood: it was anti-American. Indeed, he, M. Chrétien, had helped organize that resurgent anti-Americanism when four Canadian soldiers were killed by "friendly fire" during our first Afghan mission in April of 2002. The national "outpouring of grief" was orchestrated (sometimes in poor taste) from Ottawa and it was heavily tinged with an anti-American bias. Did M.Chrétien know that he would want to use that anti-Americanism (which is never far below the surface in Canada) in the near future? No. He just knew that's it's almost always good politics and Prime Minister Harper has not been above using it himself ~ think about his first comments (after being elected in 2006) about the Arctic. It wasn't principle that kept us out of Iraq; it wasn't good, clear strategic vision; it was low, partisan, political calculation.

As to his prescriptions, he's half right:

     1. We should "immediately allocate $100-million‎ for the World Food Program, to help feed refugees facing a harsh winter." That's a good idea; but, and it's a Big BUT

     2. We should accept zero refugees from the region. We should rarely, and only in the most dire of circumstances, accept any refugees from  anywhere. We should help care for refugees - maybe another $100 Million - in or every near their homelands but bringing
         refugees to Canada is almost always a mistake. A refugee is, by definition, a person who needs temporary refuge because (s)he and her/his family have fled their homes in fear for life and limb. Settling them, permanently, in Canada is not the right
         thing to do - it often makes matters worse for them.
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Offline George Wallace

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Re: Op IMPACT: CAF in the Iraq & Syria crisis
« Reply #60 on: October 17, 2014, 09:25:06 »

     2. We should accept zero refugees from the region. We should rarely, and only in the most dire of circumstances, accept any refugees from  anywhere. We should help care for refugees - maybe another $100 Million - in or every near their homelands but bringing
         refugees to Canada is almost always a mistake. A refugee is, by definition, a person who needs temporary refuge because (s)he and her/his family have fled their homes in fear for life and limb. Settling them, permanently, in Canada is not the right
         thing to do - it often makes matters worse for them.

I fully agree.  Beside the fact that they are not looking for a change of cultural values in escaping the violence in their homelands, we have not got the resources to properly screen them if we did bring them here.  As in the past, they could have health issues, criminal associations, or perhaps foreign intelligence affiliations.  We have no idea of whom they may be.  Just opening our doors for "feel good" reasons is not reason enough to accept anyone.
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Re: Op IMPACT: CAF in the Iraq & Syria crisis
« Reply #61 on: October 17, 2014, 10:50:25 »
Let me be clear: the overwhelming majority of refugees who settle in Canada are honest, hard working and damned grateful to be here. They work hard, obey our laws and try their best ... it is the refugee system that is broken, the refugees, themselves, are, mostly, decent, honest people who deserve our help. We need to help in better, more effective and, yes, more generous ways, but we need to respond "over there" not by bringing the refugees here. Our aim should be to protect refugees and return them to their homes when we have helped (maybe militarily) to remove the forces that made them seek refuge elsewhere.
It is ill that men should kill one another in seditions, tumults and wars; but it is worse to bring nations to such misery, weakness and baseness
as to have neither strength nor courage to contend for anything; to have nothing left worth defending and to give the name of peace to desolation.
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Offline George Wallace

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Re: Op IMPACT: CAF in the Iraq & Syria crisis
« Reply #62 on: October 17, 2014, 11:32:23 »
Let me be clear: the overwhelming majority of refugees who settle in Canada are honest, hard working and damned grateful to be here. They work hard, obey our laws and try their best ... it is the refugee system that is broken, the refugees, themselves, are, mostly, decent, honest people who deserve our help. We need to help in better, more effective and, yes, more generous ways, but we need to respond "over there" not by bringing the refugees here. Our aim should be to protect refugees and return them to their homes when we have helped (maybe militarily) to remove the forces that made them seek refuge elsewhere.

Agreed.  Just bringing them here, just for the sake of helping them, and introducing them to a completely foreign culture is much like the resettlement of Inuit communities to new locations in our not to distant past, perhaps even worse.  They may not actually want to come here.
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Re: Op IMPACT: CAF in the Iraq & Syria crisis
« Reply #63 on: October 17, 2014, 15:06:40 »
I think the net effect would be more "Lebanese-Canadians" and "Hong Kong Canadians".  Citizens of a foreign land holding a Canadian passport and expecting to be bailed out by their "Insurer" when things go wrong.
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Offline S.M.A.

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Re: Op IMPACT: CAF in the Iraq & Syria crisis
« Reply #64 on: October 30, 2014, 17:23:39 »
And the CF18 "six-pack" arrives in Kuwait ahead of their planned strikes:

CBC

Quote
CF-18s arrive in Kuwait for anti-ISIS mission
By Murray Brewster, The Canadian Press Posted: Oct 29, 2014 2:27 PM ET

Canadian warplanes have taken up position in Kuwait, a country straining in its own way to hold back the tide of Islamic extremism from its borders.

The CF-18 jet fighters and CP-140 Aurora surveillance planes are expected to join a U.S.-led coalition's bombing campaign against the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria, also known as ISIS or ISIL, within days.

(...SNIPPED)
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Re: Op IMPACT: CAF in the Iraq & Syria crisis
« Reply #65 on: October 30, 2014, 19:40:37 »
Nice shot of '104 sitting in the 40s during PFIs before departing last Friday night.  Taken from the RCAF FB page.

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Re: Op IMPACT: CAF in the Iraq & Syria crisis
« Reply #66 on: October 30, 2014, 19:51:26 »
Is it just me or does the shadow (?) look like a happy face?
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Re: Op IMPACT: CAF in the Iraq & Syria crisis
« Reply #67 on: October 30, 2014, 23:00:02 »
Is it just me or does the shadow (?) look like a happy face?

Does look like a happy plane  :nod:.

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Re: Op IMPACT: CAF in the Iraq & Syria crisis
« Reply #68 on: November 02, 2014, 21:53:53 »
Sorry to intrude on your PostAthon  ;D

Article Link

Canada launches first air strikes against ISIS: CF-18 fighter jets drop laser-guided bombs on targets in Iraq

Canadian fighter jets dropped bombs over Iraq late Sunday night, Iraqi time, Defense Minister Rob Nicholson announced in a statement from Ottawa.

“Today, Canada’s CF-18s conducted their first combat strike since joining the fight against [ISIS] on Oct. 30. Co-ordinated with our coalition partners, two CF-18s attacked [ISIS] targets with GBU12 500-pound laser-guided bombs in the vicinity of Fallujah, Iraq,” Nicholson said

“The approximately four-hour mission included air-to-air refueling from Canada’s Polaris aircraft. All aircraft returned safely to their base.”


Canadian Forces Combat Camera

Canadian Forces Combat CameraA Canadian Armed Forces flight crew member services the CP-140M Aurora Long Range Patrol aircraft as they arrive in Kuwait in support of Operation IMPACT on October 29, 2014. .

Nicholson said the assessment of damage was continuing.

It was the middle of the night in Kuwait, where the Canadian warplanes are based, and nobody connected with Task Force Iraq was available to comment.

Ottawa received word of the attack at about noon Ottawa time (or around 8 p.m. in Iraq).

First word of the successful sortie came in a statement from the minister shortly after 6 p.m. ET.

Few other details were released about the airstrike, which was the first use of bombs by CF-18 Hornets since the war to oust Muammar Gaddafi.

“We are all proud about the first strike,” an officer in Ottawa familiar with the operation said.

“It’s all good news, but we cannot possibly release information because it has to all come out at once at a tech brief where all the information will be covered so that you have the whole picture.”

As of Sunday evening, that brief for journalists was scheduled to be given in Ottawa on Tuesday.

The announcement of the air strike on the fourth day of operations came after the chief spokesman for Task Force Iraq said that the mission had been going well since it started on Thursday, with the CP-140 M Aurora spy planes singled out for praise.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Every time I see the words "spy plane", I laugh to myself.  Even the picture from the same article calls it a LRPA. 8)

Yup, its a spy plane that carries....sonar buoys.   :nod:

- mod edit to fix link -
« Last Edit: November 03, 2014, 07:22:09 by milnews.ca »
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Re: Op IMPACT: CAF in the Iraq & Syria crisis
« Reply #69 on: November 03, 2014, 01:03:13 »
Maybe the reporter is paid by the word and the company was cutting costs?   ;)
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Re: Op IMPACT: CAF in the Iraq & Syria crisis
« Reply #70 on: November 03, 2014, 07:43:27 »
Every time I see the words "spy plane", I laugh to myself.  Even the picture from the same article calls it a LRPA. 8)
That's because they've cut/pasted the Info-machine's caption/wording. 

Yup, its a spy plane that carries....sonar buoys.   :nod:
To be fair to (in this case) a reporter who's trying to get it right, what does "Long Range Patrol Aircraft" mean to the average reader at a glance?  And the wide range of stuff the planes DO do (check here for one overview) is a little tough to sum up briefly for civilian audiences.  Another info-machine term - "reconnaissance capabilities" - gives only a slightly better idea of the plane's job.

Maybe you can "lease" out your army.ca handle to Postmedia News as a short, sweet & less out there than "spy plane" descriptor?  Or does someone else hold the copyright?  ;D
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Re: Op IMPACT: CAF in the Iraq & Syria crisis
« Reply #71 on: November 03, 2014, 10:49:58 »

Maybe you can "lease" out your army.ca handle to Postmedia News as a short, sweet & less out there than "spy plane" descriptor?  Or does someone else hold the copyright?  ;D

 ;D

But the civies will only construe "Eye In The Sky" as "Spy In The Sky" and we are back to square one.
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Re: Op IMPACT: CAF in the Iraq & Syria crisis
« Reply #72 on: November 03, 2014, 11:03:48 »
;D

But the civies will only construe "Eye In The Sky" as "Spy In The Sky" and we are back to square one.
Or even "Pie in the Sky"?  Or even confuse it with the "cameras tracking the downtown" programs, right?
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Re: Op IMPACT: CAF in the Iraq & Syria crisis
« Reply #73 on: November 03, 2014, 16:35:11 »
Bumped with the latest details from the Info-machine ....
Quote
.... On 30 October 2014, all ATF-I aircraft commenced air operations over Iraqi airspace.
•Two CF-188 Hornets conducted their first mission over Iraq. During the six-hour mission flown to the west of Baghdad, no targets were engaged. Throughout the mission, the CF-188’s were supported by coalition surveillance and tanker aircraft.
•One CP-140 Aurora flew a six-hour intelligence gathering mission over northwestern Iraq. During its first mission, the aircraft supported intelligence gathering for the Canadian task force and coalition partners, which helps to develop a better understanding of the battle space.
•The CC-150T Polaris flew an approximately six-hour refueling mission. The Polaris is part of a pool of coalition aircraft with air refueling capabilities assigned to support coalition air assets. The first mission for the Polaris resulted in almost 50,000 pounds of fuel being delivered to coalition aircraft ....
A bit more from CENTCOM here.
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Re: Op IMPACT: CAF in the Iraq & Syria crisis
« Reply #74 on: November 04, 2014, 12:01:23 »
That's because they've cut/pasted the Info-machine's caption/wording. 
To be fair to (in this case) a reporter who's trying to get it right, what does "Long Range Patrol Aircraft" mean to the average reader at a glance?  And the wide range of stuff the planes DO do (check here for one overview) is a little tough to sum up briefly for civilian audiences.  Another info-machine term - "reconnaissance capabilities" - gives only a slightly better idea of the plane's job.

If they say "long range bomber" they'd know what that means.  I guess I never thought the word "patrol" would throw people off.  They must be confused by a police "patrol" going thru their neighborhoods.   ;D

I know, it's like the news article's that refer to LAVs as "tanks".  We know their not, but we still go  :facepalm: when they do it.
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