Author Topic: Veteran groups seek to influence the 2015 vote  (Read 73893 times)

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Offline R.KIRK99

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Re: ABC Veteran clowns
« Reply #25 on: August 20, 2015, 14:13:05 »
I have to agree with the majority, I dislike anyone saying they speak on my behalf, dislike whatever political party you want to, but do it under your name not all veterans...

Offline Occam

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Re: ABC Veteran clowns
« Reply #26 on: August 20, 2015, 14:16:52 »

His actions and deportment are opening up all veterans for mockery.  Read my original points about taking political stands and how that casts disparagement on all veterans.  I would feel the same way if ABC meant Anybody But Commies (NDP and lefty Liberals).

Which actions and deportment, exactly?  His beret?  You can't seriously believe that the 34.46 million Canadians who have no prior service in the military actually know the difference between a properly worn beret and what you see here?  The sign that he's carrying?  Lots of people carry signs.  His 3XL t-shirt?  He's on a cane, and I'll cut him some slack on his level of exercise, and point out that 1 in 4 Canadians are obese. 

John Q. Public doesn't care about any of that - they care that he's a veteran, period.

Offline Jed

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Re: ABC Veteran clowns
« Reply #27 on: August 20, 2015, 14:28:11 »
Which actions and deportment, exactly?  His beret?  You can't seriously believe that the 34.46 million Canadians who have no prior service in the military actually know the difference between a properly worn beret and what you see here?  The sign that he's carrying?  Lots of people carry signs.  His 3XL t-shirt?  He's on a cane, and I'll cut him some slack on his level of exercise, and point out that 1 in 4 Canadians are obese. 

John Q. Public doesn't care about any of that - they care that he's a veteran, period.

You just made my point crystal clear.  The public sees him as a veteran. Myself as a veteran, do not want to be seen in the same light. I never want anyone to view me as a sign waiving, slovenly appareled, protester begging for attention. I think there are many veterans out there that feel the same way.
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Offline Occam

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Re: ABC Veteran clowns
« Reply #28 on: August 20, 2015, 14:42:41 »
You just made my point crystal clear.  The public sees him as a veteran. Myself as a veteran, do not want to be seen in the same light. I never want anyone to view me as a sign waiving, slovenly appareled, protester begging for attention. I think there are many veterans out there that feel the same way.

I'm puzzled.  You said "{I} do not want to be seen in the same light. I never want anyone to view me as a sign waiving, slovenly appareled, protester begging for attention".

I said the public is looking beyond the appearance and seeing a veteran.

If it's not the public seeing him in that light, which group of people are you being concerned about who may see you in the same group as he?

(As an aside, this photo garnered lots of positive comments in the ABC group...and only one reference to his beret)

Offline Acorn

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Re: ABC Veteran clowns
« Reply #29 on: August 20, 2015, 15:07:39 »
Veterans' issues should be election issues, IMO, and the current government has some issues that they ought to be called out on. I'm with Occam on this one.

Jed, when you are retired or released you'll be in the same group as that guy, whether you like it or not - a veteran. Don't worry, you get used to it. You even get used to the young guy who served his three years and got out without ever doing a tour being called a veteran - because he is.
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Offline Jed

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Re: ABC Veteran clowns
« Reply #30 on: August 20, 2015, 15:16:46 »
Acorn, I can buy the sentiment that Veteran's issues should be election issues.

Because I am a Baby Boomer, that does not make me a long haired, ***** eyed, dope smokin' hippie.  I don't like seeing any of this protest crap from anyone. People can be constructive and actually do something positive.
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Offline E.R. Campbell

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Re: ABC Veteran clowns
« Reply #31 on: August 20, 2015, 15:25:48 »
Let's be clear: so long as they don't break any laws, these veterans have the same rights as any other special interest group that opposes the government, normally because of one specific policy, or advocates for some specific policy or programme ~ and there are, literally, thousands of such groups. These veterans, those in ABC and those in groups (there's more than one) specifically against ABC are nothing special; most special interest groups, large and small, claim to speak for the masees; most special interest groups are full our outrage; few have any impact on any political discussion.

I agree that some veterans have a legitimate grievance. Ten or so years ago, when the government of the day (a Liberal government led by Paul Martin) introduced the New Veterans' Charter (NVC) they could have, and in my opinion should have added a "grandfather" clause because the NVC changed some implicit terms of service and, usually, when that's done ~ to pensions, for example ~ members serving on the day before the legislation is made law are offered a choice: old system or new system. That wasn't done in 2005/06; it wasn't done by the Liberals when they passed the legislation and it wasn't done by the Conservatives when they took power, before the NVC came into force. That was, in my considered opinion, immoral because we had troops in contact with the enemy, being killed and wounded when the system was changed. Members of the CF who were serving before the NVC was passed should have been offered a choice: old system or new. But it wasn't done ... it could still be done, if it became a real issue, but:  :dunno:

My guess is that neither ABC nor the vets against ABC are going to have any significant impact on any result in any of the 338 ridings: it, your pensions, is not something about which 98% of Canadians care.

There was, as I have explained before, a consensus in official Ottawa, back circa 2005 that veterans benefits were too generous ~ the benefits which had been voted to HUGE numbers of Canadians in the 1920s and 1940s reflected wars that are pretty much forgotten and societies without much in the way of social or medical support for anyone but the really rich. It is understandable that Canadians, in the 1920s and 1940s, voted for generous benefits for the 1 in 10 or 12 of them, their family, friends and neighbours in most cases, who went to war. Times have changed: Canadians in the 21st century don't see you (us, I'm a veteran, too, if it comes to that) in the same light; they are not inclined to be that generous anymore. The Liberal government passed the NVC with both CPC and NDP support: while the Liberals, now, and the NDP, may attack the CPC for being niggardly to veterans they are not going to change much, if anything at all.

So protest away, one way or the other; it's your right in a free and democratic society ~ just don't kid yourselves into believing that anyone is listening.
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Offline George Wallace

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Re: ABC Veteran clowns
« Reply #32 on: August 20, 2015, 15:28:02 »
It is, under the Canada Elections Act, S.166(1)c:

"166. (1) No person shall

(a) post or display in, or on the exterior surface of, a polling place any campaign literature or other material that could be taken as an indication of support for or opposition to a political party that is listed on the ballot under the name of a candidate or the election of a candidate;

(b) while in a polling station, wear any emblem, flag, banner or other thing that indicates that the person supports or opposes any candidate or political party that is listed on the ballot under the name of a candidate, or the political or other opinions entertained, or supposed to be entertained, by the candidate or party; and

(c) in a polling station or in any place where voting at an election is taking place, influence electors to vote or refrain from voting or vote or refrain from voting for a particular candidate."


So it would be an offence to walk into a polling station with any campaign button on your person.
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Offline Old Sweat

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Re: ABC Veteran clowns
« Reply #33 on: August 20, 2015, 15:33:49 »

So it would be an offence to walk into a polling station with any campaign button on your person.

In previous elections the local staff of Elections Canada have interpreted this section "b) while in a polling station, wear any emblem, flag, banner or other thing that indicates that the person supports or opposes any candidate or political party that is listed on the ballot under the name of a candidate, or the political or other opinions entertained, or supposed to be entertained, by the candidate or party;" to include coloured file folders, e.g. blue, red or orange.

Offline George Wallace

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Re: ABC Veteran clowns
« Reply #34 on: August 20, 2015, 15:46:20 »
You can vote Lib.
You can vote NDP.
You can vote Green.
You can vote Independent.
You can vote Rhinoceros.
You can vote Conservative...and here's what you're going to get...etc.

How is that telling someone where exactly to put the X on their ballot?

I can't believe you just posted that.  Seriously.  "How is that telling someone where exactly to put the X on their ballot?"  Well, for starters, ABC does not stand for "You can vote Conservative...and here's what you're going to get...etc."; but vote for "Anyone But Conservative".  That means that they are INDEED TELLING US where NOT TO PUT AN "X".  That is telling us how to vote.
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Offline Acorn

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Re: ABC Veteran clowns
« Reply #35 on: August 20, 2015, 16:00:36 »
I can't believe you just posted that.  Seriously.  "How is that telling someone where exactly to put the X on their ballot?"  Well, for starters, ABC does not stand for "You can vote Conservative...and here's what you're going to get...etc."; but vote for "Anyone But Conservative".  That means that they are INDEED TELLING US where NOT TO PUT AN "X".  That is telling us how to vote.

Everyone with an axe to grind in this election is telling you how to vote George. So what? They aren't at the polling place plying you with booze or threats as was not uncommon in elections long past (and if they do that, they'll be arrested, as it should be). If they try to disenfranchise you by underhanded means (robocalls, rides to the wrong polling place) they should be taken to task (or if they form a party, get elected, and try to disenfranchise you by passing laws - see what I did there?), but otherwise they're just another voice in the chorus.

I sympathize with the "they don't speak for me" sentiment. I felt that way years ago about the RCL.
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Offline Blackadder1916

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Re: ABC Veteran clowns
« Reply #36 on: August 20, 2015, 16:25:46 »
. . . . . but otherwise they're just another voice in the chorus.


And while there are many chorusing in the background adding to the noise of this election, at least these "clowns" are abiding by the law and are registered as third parties.

http://www.elections.ca/content2.aspx?section=thi&dir=42ge&document=index&lang=e
Quote
Registered third parties – 42nd general election – October 19, 2015

Updated on August 20, 2015
Total: 32 . . .

Canadian Veterans ABC Campaign 2015 . . .
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Offline PuckChaser

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Re: ABC Veteran clowns
« Reply #37 on: August 20, 2015, 16:30:43 »
I think the real sad part is, most of these guys served in the 90s getting shafted by the Liberals on a daily basis. Now they'd like to see them in power.

Morons.  :facepalm:

Offline Occam

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Re: ABC Veteran clowns
« Reply #38 on: August 20, 2015, 17:55:13 »
I think the real sad part is, most of these guys served in the 90s getting shafted by the Liberals on a daily basis. Now they'd like to see them in power.

Morons.  :facepalm:

Can't speak for anyone else, but I served in the 80's, 90's, and into 2011 - and I remember the Progressive Conservatives, the Liberals, and the Conservative Party of Canada quite well.  I try not to predict future performance from past performance, but for many of us "morons", at the present time, change > status quo. 

I'm sure somewhere on the site, you'll likely find me posting about how great it will be for the CPC to get a majority.  I make mistakes, but I try not to make the same ones twice.   ;)

Offline ModlrMike

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Re: ABC Veteran clowns
« Reply #39 on: August 20, 2015, 17:56:05 »
My problem is not with their ABC stance; they're entitled to whatever position they choose to adopt. My problem is their contention that this is being done on my behalf. It's not. Very early on this specific veteran's group was co-opted by PSAC and the NDP and used for purely partisan purposes; you could all but see the marionette strings. I sense the same manipulation at work now.
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Offline Occam

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Re: ABC Veteran clowns
« Reply #40 on: August 20, 2015, 18:01:16 »
Everyone with an axe to grind in this election is telling you how to vote George. So what? They aren't at the polling place plying you with booze or threats as was not uncommon in elections long past (and if they do that, they'll be arrested, as it should be). If they try to disenfranchise you by underhanded means (robocalls, rides to the wrong polling place) they should be taken to task (or if they form a party, get elected, and try to disenfranchise you by passing laws - see what I did there?), but otherwise they're just another voice in the chorus.

I sympathize with the "they don't speak for me" sentiment. I felt that way years ago about the RCL.

Well said.

And to avoid this being simply a "+1" comment, I still feel the RCL doesn't speak for me - and that's unlikely to change.

Offline PuckChaser

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Re: ABC Veteran clowns
« Reply #41 on: August 20, 2015, 18:16:00 »
My problem is not with their ABC stance; they're entitled to whatever position they choose to adopt. My problem is their contention that this is being done on my behalf. It's not. Very early on this specific veteran's group was co-opted by PSAC and the NDP and used for purely partisan purposes; you could all but see the marionette strings. I sense the same manipulation at work now.
Absolutely. This would be just as shameful if they were ABL or ABN, and attempted to look like a united front of veterans.

Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: ABC Veteran clowns
« Reply #42 on: August 20, 2015, 18:53:48 »
I wouldn't be too sure of that.  I may be retired from the CF, but I can assure you that I'm more familiar with the first two issues you mentioned than I ever was in uniform, and that's all I can say about that.   ;D
 

Hey Occam
I re-read my post. I apologize if I came off as an ******* or attacking you.

What I meant by that retired comment was that I'm guessing your life (assuming here) won't be directly affected, as in placed in danger, if a political party bones us with shitty equipment, ROEs or anything like that. If I'm wrong it's on me.

Quote
You're certain of the demographic makeup of the group?  I'm in the group, and I can't even give you that.  The people speaking publicly on the issue are extremely familiar with veterans issues, and speaking to the topic of why veterans (and those who support veterans) should be unhappy with the level of performance of the current government.  I can tell you firsthand there's at least one member who previously voted blue (several times) and it's not happening again.  The campaigning would be going on regardless of which party was in power, if the quality of performance were the same.

These people are platforming on the treatment of vets by the government which I'm not disagreeing is shitty. The government really cares about us when there is a war going on and especially when the public loves us. That interest goes away when the war is over and people aren't so excited about Red Fridays and yellow Ribbons. Groups like ABC lashing out against the conservatives aren't taking into consideration the health of our armed forces. 

Maybe I'm in the wrong here but I feel trying to use ones military service to sway public opinion on anything is pretty shitty. ABC and groups like them have narrow arcs with what they are fighting, there's bigger issues. 

Quote
He's a veteran.  I agree the beret is askew, but is it really necessary for that to be the issue?  With all the other issues at hand, his beret is a topic of discussion?
Yes because he's using it as a symbol of his veteran status. He can wear whatever he wants. He wants to make sure everyone knows he was int he army, he could at least put effort into wearing it properly. After all thats what we do in the military. It's hypocritical in my books.

Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: ABC Veteran clowns
« Reply #43 on: August 20, 2015, 18:57:48 »
  The fact that there are over 11,000 members of the ABC-Veteran Facebook group says to me that the message is resounding with a lot of people.

Of course it does. It pits all party followers against one party. The same party all those other parties want to dispose of.
If you had anyone but liberals they would have a lot of likes too, especially so if they were the king of the castle.

Offline Occam

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Re: ABC Veteran clowns
« Reply #44 on: August 20, 2015, 19:35:15 »
My problem is not with their ABC stance; they're entitled to whatever position they choose to adopt. My problem is their contention that this is being done on my behalf. It's not. Very early on this specific veteran's group was co-opted by PSAC and the NDP and used for purely partisan purposes; you could all but see the marionette strings. I sense the same manipulation at work now.

Right on the ABC-Veterans page, under "About":  "The Canadian Veterans ABC Campaign 2015 is not associated in anyway with any other veterans groups. We stand alone in our venture to defeat the conservative party in the upcoming 2015 Canadian federal election"...so I'm not sure what "specific veteran's group" you're referring to.

And again with the "they don't represent me" bit.  They haven't claimed that they do represent you, or all veterans.  I'm more than willing to take a look at anything that can be produced that proves otherwise.

Offline Occam

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Re: ABC Veteran clowns
« Reply #45 on: August 20, 2015, 19:56:13 »
Hey Occam
I re-read my post. I apologize if I came off as an ******* or attacking you.

What I meant by that retired comment was that I'm guessing your life (assuming here) won't be directly affected, as in placed in danger, if a political party bones us with shitty equipment, ROEs or anything like that. If I'm wrong it's on me.

No offence taken; I have a pretty thick skin.  The answer is no, my life won't be directly affected.  I do have a vested interest (more so than John Q. Public) in making sure the guys in uniform do get the right equipment, though.

Quote
These people are platforming on the treatment of vets by the government which I'm not disagreeing is shitty. The government really cares about us when there is a war going on and especially when the public loves us. That interest goes away when the war is over and people aren't so excited about Red Fridays and yellow Ribbons. Groups like ABC lashing out against the conservatives aren't taking into consideration the health of our armed forces

No arguments here, but unless I've misunderstood the part in yellow, you're claiming that an ABC campaign that was successful in ousting the Conservatives would be detrimental to the CAF?  I would argue exactly the opposite, and the ABC campaign very much takes into consideration the desire for a well-equipped, well-trained and capable CAF.

Quote
Maybe I'm in the wrong here but I feel trying to use ones military service to sway public opinion on anything is pretty shitty. ABC and groups like them have narrow arcs with what they are fighting, there's bigger issues.

Why is it shitty?  There's a reason why we say that we're our own best recruiters - nobody else can speak to what CAF members go through better than CAF members, or former CAF members.  Like I see here quite frequently, support for the CAF is a mile wide and an inch deep - and sometimes I don't even think it would be that deep if it weren't for retired members being able to speak out about what their careers were like, and why we need a strong CAF.  I agree ABC has narrow arcs; that's why it'd be very unlikely to see anyone from the ABC campaign hollering about environmental issues, or native issues.  But on the other hand, the ABC campaign isn't trying to sway anyone away from the Conservatives because of their stance on the environment - they're being transparent.
 
Quote
Yes because he's using it as a symbol of his veteran status. He can wear whatever he wants. He wants to make sure everyone knows he was int he army, he could at least put effort into wearing it properly. After all thats what we do in the military. It's hypocritical in my books.

Both you and I and 700,000 other people know his beret looks like it's inflated to 30 PSI.  In the grand scheme of things, I think its importance is being overstated.  YMMV.

Offline Altair

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Re: ABC Veteran clowns
« Reply #46 on: August 21, 2015, 13:05:52 »
I like that veterans are getting involved. This goverment wraps itself on the flag, gets photo ops with serving members all the while nickel and diming them and taking them to court fighting about benifits.

This evens out the playing field some.
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Re: ABC Veteran clowns
« Reply #47 on: August 21, 2015, 13:53:44 »
It is, under the Canada Elections Act, S.166(1)c:

"166. (1) No person shall

(a) post or display in, or on the exterior surface of, a polling place any campaign literature or other material that could be taken as an indication of support for or opposition to a political party that is listed on the ballot under the name of a candidate or the election of a candidate;

(b) while in a polling station, wear any emblem, flag, banner or other thing that indicates that the person supports or opposes any candidate or political party that is listed on the ballot under the name of a candidate, or the political or other opinions entertained, or supposed to be entertained, by the candidate or party; and

(c) in a polling station or in any place where voting at an election is taking place, influence electors to vote or refrain from voting or vote or refrain from voting for a particular candidate."

Hohne Ranges, early '70s. We were filling out our ballot in a tent on the range. One particular MCpl was being very vocal about who he was voting for and why, while trashing the other parties. He was basically told to shut up or he would be charged under the NDA and the Elections Act. He stopped talking, about parties and voting, in a hurry. Although the arguing about his civil rights afterwards, brought him a number of extras.
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Offline Danjanou

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Re: ABC Veteran clowns
« Reply #48 on: August 21, 2015, 14:17:29 »
....(As an aside, this photo garnered lots of positive comments in the ABC group...and only one reference to his beret)

 And a lot more derision and ridicule both for his stance and his dress and deportment on several dozen Veterans groups and pages elsewhere on Face book and other social media  outlets whose membership numbers are probably more representative of the total Veteran population in this country than the ABC/CVA site.


So it would be an offence to walk into a polling station with any campaign button on your person.

Yup a point I once made in a downtown Toronto polling station several years back, and noticed most of the staff manning the polling station wearing them. I was told it was okay because the staff were wearing NDP buttons.  Attempting to point out the relevant parts of the election act quoted elsewhere in this thread was entertaining to say the least.   ::)

Right on the ABC-Veterans page, under "About":  "The Canadian Veterans ABC Campaign 2015 is not associated in anyway with any other veterans groups. We stand alone in our venture to defeat the conservative party in the upcoming 2015 Canadian federal election"...so I'm not sure what "specific veteran's group" you're referring to.
 

Both Mike Blais Ron Clarke of the ABC and the CVA have admitted to receiving cash from the PSAC,  Blais I believe received $3,000.00 and Clarke $25,000.00 They've also receives support in kind ( office space etc) from the NDP… yeah not affiliated

Sorry this clown and his fellow travellers in no way represent me or my interests/concerns.
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Offline Occam

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Re: ABC Veteran clowns
« Reply #49 on: August 21, 2015, 16:07:10 »
And a lot more derision and ridicule both for his stance and his dress and deportment on several dozen Veterans groups and pages elsewhere on Face book and other social media  outlets whose membership numbers are probably more representative of the total Veteran population in this country than the ABC/CVA site.

Not that I've seen, though obviously I'm not a member of every veteran-related group...but I'm in quite a few of the bigger ones.

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Both Mike Blais Ron Clarke of the ABC and the CVA have admitted to receiving cash from the PSAC,  Blais I believe received $3,000.00 and Clarke $25,000.00 They've also receives support in kind ( office space etc) from the NDP… yeah not affiliated

Sorry this clown and his fellow travellers in no way represent me or my interests/concerns.

Ah, someone dared to say it.

Mike Blais has nothing to do with the ABC campaign.  Ron Clarke, I believe, speaks to the press in support of the ABC campaign.

Mike Blais received $2000 (not $3000) from the Union of Veterans' Affairs Employees (UVAE), which is a component of PSAC.  The funds were for the express purpose of transporting VAC employees of the the closed VAC offices to the location of the press conference held concerning their closure.  Full disclosure of this information was made.  Parm Gill tried to make an issue of it at a meeting of the Standing Committee on Veterans Affairs in an attempt to discredit.  Blais did not receive in-kind office space from the NDP; he was allowed to charge his disability scooter in Peter Stoffer's office on the Hill, and to catch brief rest periods there between meetings - another distortion of fact by a small group of people with an axe to grind.  Blais and the CVA have nothing to do with the ABC-Veterans campaign.

I can't speak to any money given to Ron Clarke, but if you're inferring that Clarke is giving union-donated money to ABC-Veterans, that's a pretty serious allegation.

ABC-Veterans is run by Tom Beaver, as disclosed on the Elections.ca website listing registered third parties.  Note that you will not find either Mike Blais' or Ron Clarke's name on that listing.

Hate to burst your bubble - ABC-Veterans may be a lot of things, but it's not propped up by unions, a political party, or any veterans groups.