Author Topic: Politics in 2017  (Read 51615 times)

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Offline SeaKingTacco

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Re: Politics in 2017
« Reply #500 on: May 19, 2017, 15:43:40 »
OGBD-

Imagine for a second that Ottawa decided tomorrow there was no future in hydroelectricity and that all dams would be removed from all rivers in 20 years.

Québec's reaction would be, what, precisely?

Chris said it better I could.

Offline Journeyman

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Re: Politics in 2017
« Reply #501 on: May 19, 2017, 15:54:35 »
As the "populist wave" cheerleaders on the site love to repeat, the actual facts are apparently irrelevant;  when anything disagreed with is simply 'fake news,' why bother trying to put forth a logical argument for or against Alberta's anger?

Hell, in one fell swoop, the Americans got a President who is more crooked than Richard Nixon and even stupider than George Bush (#43).  I imagine Albertans can come up with a politician that no one objects to being a compulsive liar, who will put together the campaign promises to ride that ***** all the way to the prom.  Facts -- and the inescapable reality that our policies and economies are intertwined -- be damned.

       :not-again:
I even read works I disagree with;  life outside  an ideological echo chamber.

Offline Chris Pook

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Re: Politics in 2017
« Reply #502 on: May 19, 2017, 16:59:35 »
As the "populist wave" cheerleaders on the site love to repeat, the actual facts are apparently irrelevant;  when anything disagreed with is simply 'fake news,' why bother trying to put forth a logical argument for or against Alberta's anger?

Hell, in one fell swoop, the Americans got a President who is more crooked than Richard Nixon and even stupider than George Bush (#43).  I imagine Albertans can come up with a politician that no one objects to being a compulsive liar, who will put together the campaign promises to ride that ***** all the way to the prom.  Facts -- and the inescapable reality that our policies and economies are intertwined -- be damned.

       :not-again:

As someone who was raised to read the book myself, rather have it read to me from the pulpit, I find myself less troubled by the lack of a revealed truth.
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Offline jollyjacktar

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Re: Politics in 2017
« Reply #503 on: May 19, 2017, 20:13:05 »
Also having grown up in Southern Alberta I remember the National Energy Program of nice hair senior.  I remember how hard it was for a long time to find a decent job in those days.  There were those people back then who proposed the Western Canada Concept.  Separatists.  I disliked them then as much as I hated Rene Levesque and his ilk. Still do.  I have been away since 94, but I can appreciate how those feelings might arise in the West once again.  I was very close to being hired back into the patch in 2014/15, that went poof and won't come back.  Yup, I can imagine the anger, especially seeing Bombardier get sacks of cash while Alberta gets the finger.

Online RocketRichard

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Re: Politics in 2017
« Reply #504 on: May 19, 2017, 20:24:55 »
Also having grown up in Southern Alberta I remember the National Energy Program of nice hair senior.  I remember how hard it was for a long time to find a decent job in those days.  There were those people back then who proposed the Western Canada Concept.  Separatists.  I disliked them then as much as I hated Rene Levesque and his ilk. Still do.  I have been away since 94, but I can appreciate how those feelings might arise in the West once again.  I was very close to being hired back into the patch in 2014/15, that went poof and won't come back.  Yup, I can imagine the anger, especially seeing Bombardier get sacks of cash while Alberta gets the finger.
No anger here from this Albertan/Saskatchewanian. Wasn't angry during Harper's reign either. Just keep on keeping on. Now Trump on the other hand...


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Offline ModlrMike

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Re: Politics in 2017
« Reply #505 on: May 30, 2017, 17:34:44 »
A test for Mr Trudeau?

NDP, Green alliance to focus on banning big money, electoral reform and stopping Kinder Morgan

Now, he does have the whole softwood lumber issue to use as leverage, but I don't think he can swing that club without looking like a complete barbarian.
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Online jmt18325

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Re: Politics in 2017
« Reply #506 on: May 30, 2017, 17:59:51 »
He said he'd get their approval, but, if push comes to shove, it isn't really needed.

Offline Chris Pook

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Re: Politics in 2017
« Reply #507 on: May 30, 2017, 18:10:55 »
He said he'd get their approval, but, if push comes to shove, it isn't really needed.


But, but...... Consensus? Moral Suasion? Social Licence? Community Permission? 

I admit, my mental agility is lacking, these days.

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Online jmt18325

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Re: Politics in 2017
« Reply #508 on: May 30, 2017, 18:32:28 »

But, but...... Consensus? Moral Suasion? Social Licence? Community Permission? 

I admit, my mental agility is lacking, these days.

I'm just saying, it's possible without their agreement.

Offline Chris Pook

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Re: Politics in 2017
« Reply #509 on: May 30, 2017, 18:35:52 »
I'm just saying, it's possible without their agreement.

Absolutely it is. 


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Offline Loachman

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Re: Politics in 2017
« Reply #510 on: May 30, 2017, 18:54:56 »
I'm just saying, it's possible without their agreement.

Which is likely to cost him a few votes, and not just in that province - and that's a Good Thing.

Offline Dimsum

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Re: Politics in 2017
« Reply #511 on: May 30, 2017, 19:18:18 »
Which is likely to cost him a few votes, and not just in that province - and that's a Good Thing.

You know what else is a good thing?  The fact that people don't go out in public (unless making a statement) wearing the shirt that PET has on that book cover.  The 70s were a weird time for fashion/style.
Philip II of Macedon to Spartans (346 BC):  "You are advised to submit without further delay, for if I bring my army into your land, I will destroy your farms, slay your people, and raze your city."

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Offline dapaterson

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Re: Politics in 2017
« Reply #512 on: May 30, 2017, 19:28:28 »
You know what else is a good thing?  The fact that people don't go out in public (unless making a statement) wearing the shirt that PET has on that book cover.

You say that, and yet you claim to be maritime aircrew...

Have you never met a pilot or a MARS officer?
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Offline Dimsum

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Re: Politics in 2017
« Reply #513 on: May 30, 2017, 19:49:45 »
You say that, and yet you claim to be maritime aircrew...

Have you never met a pilot or a MARS officer?

Well, there was that guy that subscribed to the "Joker school of fashion"...
Philip II of Macedon to Spartans (346 BC):  "You are advised to submit without further delay, for if I bring my army into your land, I will destroy your farms, slay your people, and raze your city."

Reply:  "If."

Offline Loachman

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Re: Politics in 2017
« Reply #514 on: May 30, 2017, 22:02:46 »
You know what else is a good thing?  The fact that people don't go out in public (unless making a statement) wearing the shirt that PET has on that book cover.  The 70s were a weird time for fashion/style.

I would never wear that shirt.

It's just not https://www.jeffalpaugh.com/ (and I do wear those; some people at work complain when I wear boring standard shirts).
« Last Edit: May 30, 2017, 22:14:38 by Loachman »

Offline Colin P

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Re: Politics in 2017
« Reply #515 on: May 31, 2017, 12:39:28 »

But, but...... Consensus? Moral Suasion? Social Licence? Community Permission? 

I admit, my mental agility is lacking, these days.

That reminds me, must stock up on popcorn, JT having to battle the NDP/Greens over oil tankers and pipelines, loving it!

Offline Chris Pook

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Re: Politics in 2017
« Reply #516 on: May 31, 2017, 13:27:26 »
Quote
THURSDAY, APRIL 27, 2017 02:03 PM EDT | UPDATED: THURSDAY, APRIL 27, 2017 02:07 PM EDT

A Forum Research poll released Thursday found Trudeau’s approval rating has fallen to 42% — a significant drop from last November when 58% of respondents gave the prime minister the thumbs up.


http://www.torontosun.com/2017/04/27/pm-trudeaus-approval-rating-tumbles

Quote
President Trump Job Approval
Gallup
Approve 41 Disapprove 53
Disapprove +12

Rasmussen Reports
Approve 43 Disapprove 57
Disapprove +14

Economist/YouGov
Approve 40 Disapprove 53
Disapprove +13

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/

Quote
43 per cent approve of Ms May and 34 per cent disapprove.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/theresa-may-more-popular-than-the-tory-party-conservatives-jeremy-corbyn-labour-poll-orb-tim-farron-a7735091.html

 :pop:

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Offline ModlrMike

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Re: Politics in 2017
« Reply #517 on: May 31, 2017, 13:32:56 »
Sort of looks like Trump and Trudeau have the same approval rating.  >:D
WARNING: The consumption of alcohol may create the illusion that you are tougher,smarter, faster and better looking than most people.
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats. (H.L. Mencken 1919)
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Offline jollyjacktar

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Re: Politics in 2017
« Reply #518 on: May 31, 2017, 18:51:05 »
Sort of looks like Trump and Trudeau have the same approval rating.  >:D

Where's jmt18325 when you need him? :whistle:

Offline Thucydides

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Re: Politics in 2017
« Reply #519 on: May 31, 2017, 18:51:22 »
Although it is an old book now, Joel Garreau did point out that place like Alberta did have more in common with the Dakotas than with the rest of Canada in "The Nine Nations of North America".

Robert Kaplan had a somewhat more granular approach in his book "An Empire Wilderness", but I think it is correct that changes in demographics, technologies and communications have made many of the old assumptions about how we draw maps and incorporate like minded people into political units obsolete.

How people act on these changes is an entirely different discussion.
Dagny, this is not a battle over material goods. It's a moral crisis, the greatest the world has ever faced and the last. Our age is the climax of centuries of evil. We must put an end to it, once and for all, or perish - we, the men of the mind. It was our own guilt. We produced the wealth of the world - but we let our enemies write its moral code.

Online jmt18325

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Re: Politics in 2017
« Reply #520 on: May 31, 2017, 21:45:24 »
Where's jmt18325 when you need him? :whistle:

I'm right here - pretty sure that ( A ) we're talking about very different systems (multiple parties vs two) and ( B ) that Trudeau and Trump are in very different points in their governing cycles.

Trudeau's is normal:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/grenier-trudeau-approval-history-1.3950007

Trump's isn't:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/donald-trump-lowest-approval-ratings-us-president-100-days-44-per-cent-cnn-poll-a7705611.html

Offline Rifleman62

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Re: Politics in 2017
« Reply #521 on: June 13, 2017, 09:24:00 »
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/true-north/2017/jun/12/justin-trudeau-deploys-the-politics-of-hype-jeremy-corbyn-offers-politics-of-hope?CMP=share_btn_tw

Justin Trudeau deploys the politics of hype. Jeremy Corbyn offers politics of hope @Martin_Lukacs - Monday 12 June 2017

Canada’s PM is a counterfeit progressive who champions war-planes, pipelines and privatization - look across the pond for economic and environmental justice

Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau has cynically continued many of his Conservative predecessor’s policies, while UK Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn now stands within reach of government with a redistributive agenda.

Their depiction in the international media couldn’t be more different.

You know Justin Trudeau from the Buzzfeed photo-spread or the BBC viral video: the feminist Prime Minister of Canada who hugs refugees, pandas, and his yoga-mat. He looks like he canoed straight from the lake to the stage of the nearest TED Talk — an inclusive, nature-loving do-gooder who must assuredly be loved by his people.

Then there’s what the columns of trans-Atlantic punditry told you about Jeremy Corbyn: the rumpled, charmless leader of UK’s Labour party whose supporters are fringe lunatics and his stances out-of-date utopianism. If he dared run an election with his political program, he would just as assuredly be rejected by the electorate.

But last week Corbyn pulled off the biggest political upset in modern British history. The Labour party, rather than undergoing a widely-advertised demise, is within striking distance of forming government. Millions, it turns out, are ready to embrace radical policies that take on vested interests, put services back into public hands, and spend massively on education, clean energy and healthcare.

Now that Corbyn has upended the rules that govern electoral life in the west, it will help us see Trudeau in proper perspective: as a smooth-talking centrist who has put the most coiffed gloss yet on the bankrupt and besieged neoliberalism of the age.

Trudeau’s coronation as a champion of everything fair and decent, after all, has much to do with shrewd and calculated public relations. I call it the Trudeau two-step.

First, he makes a sweeping proclamation pitched abroad — a bold pledge to tackle austerity or climate change, or to assure the rights of refugees or Indigenous peoples. The fawning international coverage bolsters his domestic credibility.

What follows next are not policies to ambitiously fulfill these pledges: it is ploys to quietly evacuate them of any meaning. The success of this maneuver – as well as its sheer cynicism – has been astonishing.

In this manner, Trudeau has basically continued, and in some cases exceeded, the economic agenda of Conservative Stephen Harper: approved mega fossil fuel projects, sought parliamentary power grabs, cut-back healthcare funding and attacked public pensions, kept up the dispossession of Indigenous peoples, undermined the prospect of universal childcare, maintained tax loopholes for the richest, and detained and deported thousands of migrants.

Out of breath? He has also broken an electoral reform promise, initiated a privatization scheme that is a massive corporate handout, left un-repealed a Tory political spy bill, launched air strikes in Iraq and Syria despite pledging a withdrawal, and inked the largest-ever weapons deal with the brutal, misogynistic Saudi Arabian regime.

Not exactly what those who voted for “real change” were expecting? Before you answer, here’s something titillating to distract and disarm you: Justin and Barack Obama rekindling their progressive bromance at an uber-cool Montreal diner. Jeremy Corbyn has shown us the meaning of a politics of genuine hope: what Trudeau has deployed has only ever been a politics of hype.

Trudeau’s latest progressive posturing is over foreign policy. Last week his government announced, to wide-spread acclaim, a brave course for their military that is independent of the reviled US administration. Except they will boost wasteful military spending by more than $60bn, a shocking seventy percent budgetary increase, and are already entertaining new NATO missions — exactly as Donald Trump has demanded. The doublespeak seems to have escaped the naval-gazing pundits: this is utter deference masquerading as defiance.

Jeremy Corbyn has shown what real courage looks like: he called for Trump’s visit to the UK to be canceled; and he has been a consistent critic of the UK’s disastrous, illegal wars of intervention in Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya — many of which Canada directly participated in and Trudeau supported.

In the aftermath of the recent terrorist attacks in London, Corbyn dared to connect foreign wars to the inevitable blowback on civilians at home. Such truths are considered heresies as much in the political and media bubble on Ottawa’s Parliament Hill as in London’s Westminster. They are common sense to majorities in both countries.

But the gap between Justin and Jeremy, between symbolism and substance, is perhaps greatest on the environmental front. Labour’s platform laid out an industrial revolution that matches the scale of the climate crisis: an investment of £250bn over ten years to create renewable energy and green jobs, insulate millions of homes, and lower energy bills as well as carbon emissions. The energy system would be pried back from private vultures to public, decentralized control. Fracking would be banned. Trudeau’s method, on the other hand, has been to style himself a proud climate champion, while brazenly selling Canada’s enormous deposits of oil and gas to any willing buyer.

Justin Trudeau is a counterfeit, while Jeremy Corbyn is the progressive. Their way of doing politics is the difference between real change™ and transformation: not an empty spectacle orchestrated by elite technocrats beholden to bankers and oil barons, but an electoral program, pushed for and shaped by a mass movement, that would concretely improve the lives of millions of people.

The election of Trudeau, despite the illusory facade, shows that in Canada as much as in the UK there is a huge appetite for a genuinely activist government. Just as young people in droves voted for Bernie Sanders and Corbyn, they turned to Trudeau. As his shin wears off, they should not merely be disappointed or angry: they should be fighting for a real, radical alternative.

In Canada, the closest parallel to Corbyn’s positive program, as well as its media vilification, has been the Leap Manifesto. Canada’s elite opinion-makers wheezed that this broad coalition’s agenda – public ownership of key sectors, taxing corporations and the wealthy, and respecting Indigenous rights as a way to combat climate change - was electoral hemlock, beyond the shade of reasonable opinion. Polls showed the opposite: that a majority of people support it. Now Corbyn’s success proves beyond a doubt that, in these volatile political times, it can form the basis for a winning electoral program.

For that to happen, this political vision will have to be accompanied by face-to-face grassroots organizing on a massive scale, which is what propelled Corbyn to PM-in-waiting. Whether that’s the Leap’s new organizing initiatives, the New Democratic Party drawing bold lessons from its UK cousin, or a flowering of campaigns like the successful fight for a $15 minimum wage, the broader left must seize the moment: it must activate and connect and embolden, as the movement has in England, tens of thousands of people.

Nothing else will fully and truly puncture Trudeau’s progressive image. Even if the international press never catches on, people in Canada are surely ready.
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Offline Good2Golf

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Re: Politics in 2017
« Reply #522 on: June 16, 2017, 09:46:38 »
If the Guardian is the best cheering squad Corbyn can afford, he needs to take out a loan.  Having the two old guys from the Muppet Show harrumphing from the wings about how Corbyn is nothing short of brilliant if not rather plain, is pretty much Tier 2 stuff...if not a solid Tier 3 performance...

I gotta say, this piece actually makes me appreciate a little more than I did, what Team Red(-ish) is working on for a plan. :nod:

Regards
G2G

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Re: Politics in 2017
« Reply #523 on: June 16, 2017, 10:56:46 »
... Team Red(-ish) ...
I like ...
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Offline jollyjacktar

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Re: Politics in 2017
« Reply #524 on: June 17, 2017, 08:52:01 »
At least they got it right about Trudeau being a counterfeit.  They did fail to mention the real reason the youth voted for comrade Corbyn was because they're remoaners and hope to turn back Brexit.