Author Topic: 16 Jan 2017 - VCDS relieved of duty  (Read 36680 times)

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Offline Chris Pook

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Re: 16 Jan 2017 - VCDS relieved of duty
« Reply #200 on: April 19, 2017, 12:12:23 »
Up in Alaska they fish for Pollock.  It is a billion dollar industry.  Now it is managed on a quota system and is one of the most, if not the most, sustainable fisheries anywhere.  It didn't used to be that way.

It used to be run under what were called "olympic" or "derby" rules.  The US Government set an annual catch allotment and then it was every man for himself.  The results were disgraceful.  Only 10% of the fish caught were turned into sellable products.  Only the most valuable parts of the fish were kept and other parts, good, nutritious and sellable in their own right, but not as valuable, were chucked over the side.  As sailors will recognize there is only a limited storage capacity on board a ship so it was desirable to keep the boat at sea as long as possible (you didn't want to fill your holds too fast) and come back with the most valuable cargo possible (fill up with roe and not fishmeal).  Fish other than pollock were chucked at the very beginning and went back to the sea dead - the government didn't allow them being processed.

There were a lot of fish and there were a lot of boats chasing those fish.   Based on the number of boats left after the quota system was imposed probably too many boats.

The companies employed a number of tactics, high grading - as described above was one.  Keeping their fishing holes and tackle "secret" was another (like every other fisherman).  They also put as many nets in the water as they could and scooped fish as fast as they were able.  This scooping invariably resulted in the season closing early which, coupled with the really low yields, meant many boats struggled to pay their bills.  If they had fished slower, processed more efficiently and co-operated more then more of them would have survived and the quota system would not have been imposed.  But that wasn't how it worked.

The base line strategy was beggar thy neighbour.  While there was fish in the water the purpose was to scoop them before the other guy could, even if you couldn't use them and had no intention of using them.   You wanted to drive the competition out of business by denying them a revenue stream.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2017, 12:15:13 by Chris Pook »
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Offline Retired AF Guy

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Re: 16 Jan 2017 - VCDS relieved of duty
« Reply #201 on: April 19, 2017, 20:18:40 »
Up in Alaska they fish for Pollock.  It is a billion dollar industry.  Now it is managed on a quota system and is one of the most, if not the most, sustainable fisheries anywhere.  It didn't used to be that way.

It used to be run under what were called "olympic" or "derby" rules.  The US Government set an annual catch allotment and then it was every man for himself.  The results were disgraceful.  Only 10% of the fish caught were turned into sellable products.  Only the most valuable parts of the fish were kept and other parts, good, nutritious and sellable in their own right, but not as valuable, were chucked over the side.  As sailors will recognize there is only a limited storage capacity on board a ship so it was desirable to keep the boat at sea as long as possible (you didn't want to fill your holds too fast) and come back with the most valuable cargo possible (fill up with roe and not fishmeal).  Fish other than pollock were chucked at the very beginning and went back to the sea dead - the government didn't allow them being processed.

There were a lot of fish and there were a lot of boats chasing those fish.   Based on the number of boats left after the quota system was imposed probably too many boats.

The companies employed a number of tactics, high grading - as described above was one.  Keeping their fishing holes and tackle "secret" was another (like every other fisherman).  They also put as many nets in the water as they could and scooped fish as fast as they were able.  This scooping invariably resulted in the season closing early which, coupled with the really low yields, meant many boats struggled to pay their bills.  If they had fished slower, processed more efficiently and co-operated more then more of them would have survived and the quota system would not have been imposed.  But that wasn't how it worked.

The base line strategy was beggar thy neighbour.  While there was fish in the water the purpose was to scoop them before the other guy could, even if you couldn't use them and had no intention of using them.   You wanted to drive the competition out of business by denying them a revenue stream.

And this has what to do about "VCDS relieved of duty?"
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Offline Chris Pook

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Re: 16 Jan 2017 - VCDS relieved of duty
« Reply #202 on: April 19, 2017, 23:38:31 »
Overly obtuse.  Sorry.

I am sure that Irving was quite happy to have Davie resurrect as a viable competitor.
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Offline SeaKingTacco

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Re: 16 Jan 2017 - VCDS relieved of duty
« Reply #203 on: April 20, 2017, 01:20:29 »
I got it.

In your opinion, if Irving could not get the contract, they at least wanted to be be sure that Davie lost it, too.

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Re: 16 Jan 2017 - VCDS relieved of duty
« Reply #204 on: April 20, 2017, 05:54:59 »
I got it.

In your opinion, if Irving could not get the contract, they at least wanted to be be sure that Davie lost it, too.

Your reading comprehension is better than mine lol
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Offline Chris Pook

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Re: 16 Jan 2017 - VCDS relieved of duty
« Reply #205 on: April 20, 2017, 10:42:14 »
Thanks SKT.  And my apologies to the rest. 
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Offline Oldgateboatdriver

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Re: 16 Jan 2017 - VCDS relieved of duty
« Reply #206 on: April 22, 2017, 10:20:37 »
Or, to paraphrase the Hunt for Red October:

"Zampolit: It is rumoured that Irving has a special place for Davie in its heart.

Captain: There is no room in Irving's heart for anyone but Irving!*"


*: And that means, not even for the Navy, to whom ISI owes its continued existence.

Offline Humphrey Bogart

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Re: 16 Jan 2017 - VCDS relieved of duty
« Reply #207 on: April 22, 2017, 10:30:57 »
Or, to paraphrase the Hunt for Red October:

"Zampolit: It is rumoured that Irving has a special place for Davie in its heart.

Captain: There is no room in Irving's heart for anyone but Irving!*"


*: And that means, not even for the Navy, to whom ISI owes its continued existence.

I believe I've said this before but Irving Shipbuilding exists to support the Irving Group of Companies.  That the Government of Canada uses them to build warships is of little consequence to Irving.  My opinion, Irving sees this as a way for them revitalize their own fleet of Irving Oil, Kent Line, etc... ships which are going to need replacement soon as the Irving fleet was built by their now shuttered Saint John Shipbuilding location.  These replacements will be funded off the back of the profits of the NSPS.

Yes the Irving group of companies have their own ships, railroads, trucking companies, steel fabrication, etc.  Nothing like government money for corporate expansion.

Note:  Forgot to mention that Irving just bought a refinery in Ireland with a plan to expand in to Europe.  Don't be surprised if some new ships get built for that purpose.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2017, 10:40:18 by Humphrey Bogart »

Offline George Wallace

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Re: 16 Jan 2017 - VCDS relieved of duty
« Reply #208 on: April 22, 2017, 10:56:34 »
I believe I've said this before but Irving Shipbuilding exists to support the Irving Group of Companies.  That the Government of Canada uses them to build warships is of little consequence to Irving.  My opinion, Irving sees this as a way for them revitalize their own fleet of Irving Oil, Kent Line, etc... ships which are going to need replacement soon as the Irving fleet was built by their now shuttered Saint John Shipbuilding location.  These replacements will be funded off the back of the profits of the NSPS.

Yes the Irving group of companies have their own ships, railroads, trucking companies, steel fabrication, etc.  Nothing like government money for corporate expansion.

Note:  Forgot to mention that Irving just bought a refinery in Ireland with a plan to expand in to Europe.  Don't be surprised if some new ships get built for that purpose.


 :goodpost:


So many people have no inkling as to how large an empire the Irving empire actually is, and how wide it is spread across NB, the Maritimes and the world.  So few know the other "names" that are part of the Irving "family".   

I remember when Canada Splint went on strike in Pembroke.  I said then and there, that as an Irving company, these guys were putting themselves out of work.  They didn't seem to know how the Irving's operated.  I said that they would close the plant and lay off all the workers, and that is exactly what they did.  The plant remained empty, still owned by the Irving's, until such time as the property was in demand at a higher property value and then sold to build a Retirement Residence.  Profit drives them and all their "family" of companies.
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Offline Humphrey Bogart

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Re: 16 Jan 2017 - VCDS relieved of duty
« Reply #209 on: April 22, 2017, 11:32:22 »

 :goodpost:


So many people have no inkling as to how large an empire the Irving empire actually is, and how wide it is spread across NB, the Maritimes and the world.  So few know the other "names" that are part of the Irving "family".   

I remember when Canada Splint went on strike in Pembroke.  I said then and there, that as an Irving company, these guys were putting themselves out of work.  They didn't seem to know how the Irving's operated.  I said that they would close the plant and lay off all the workers, and that is exactly what they did.  The plant remained empty, still owned by the Irving's, until such time as the property was in demand at a higher property value and then sold to build a Retirement Residence.  Profit drives them and all their "family" of companies.

Aye, and they ARE NOT a publicly traded company.  100% owned and controlled by the Irving family and have been for a few generations.

K.C. was a great industrialist and a man with real vision. 

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Re: 16 Jan 2017 - VCDS relieved of duty
« Reply #210 on: April 22, 2017, 11:37:58 »
More info coming soon, Globe and Mail has won a suit to lift publication ban on the redacted documents.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/judge-lifts-publication-ban-on-rcmp-case-against-vice-admiral-norman/article34791139/ (Globe has an adblock detector on now, so you'll have to temporarily disable to read article)

Offline jollyjacktar

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Re: 16 Jan 2017 - VCDS relieved of duty
« Reply #211 on: April 22, 2017, 13:28:49 »
Aye, and they ARE NOT a publicly traded company.  100% owned and controlled by the Irving family and have been for a few generations.

K.C. was a great industrialist and a man with real vision.

I wouldn't mind the family so much if K.C. hadn't been taking all their money off shore and not keeping the money in Canada.  That trend continues, I believe.

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Re: 16 Jan 2017 - VCDS relieved of duty
« Reply #212 on: April 22, 2017, 21:45:52 »
So, the Globe and Mail reports that "An Ontario Superior Court justice has issued a ruling to lift a publication ban and unseal large sections of a redacted RCMP affidavit concerning the criminal investigation of Vice-Admiral Mark Norman for alleged breach of trust in leaking government secrets."

The order will be stayed for a week to allow VAdm Norman's lawyers to appeal but the judge said, according to the linked report that "“I note that the main statements allegedly attributable to Vice-Admiral Mark Norman are contained in e-mails apparently written by him ... [and] ... It cannot be said that the mere fact of the communications in question leads inexorably to a conclusion of guilt such that potential jury impartiality would be compromised”" ... [and] ... "The judge went on to say: “Nowhere is there any suggestion that the man was even thinking of trying to line his own pockets, or get any personal advantage whatsoever.”" Further, the judge said that "“In my view, the mindset and alleged communications arising from it is hardly the stuff of stigma or moral turpitude ... At its highest, it appears that the potential allegation against Vice-Admiral Norman is that he was trying to keep a contractual relationship together so that the country might get a badly needed supply ship.”"
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Re: 16 Jan 2017 - VCDS relieved of duty
« Reply #213 on: April 22, 2017, 22:38:49 »
It seems as though the Ontario Supreme Court judge's mind is heading where many others seem to have been thinking, regarding the point that breach of trust, through existing jurisprudence, seems to require elements of the individual acting to their own benefit, counter to that of the Crown -- as Oldgateboatdriver notes in his post up-thread.

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Offline MilEME09

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Re: 16 Jan 2017 - VCDS relieved of duty
« Reply #214 on: April 23, 2017, 01:33:38 »
To me if his actions are as stated, he was committing rhe acts he did with the best intetests of the Navy, and by extention the national defense of Canada. Something that should be commended in my opinion

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Re: 16 Jan 2017 - VCDS relieved of duty
« Reply #215 on: April 23, 2017, 10:11:32 »
If the Ontario Superior Court's view is upheld, this has the potential to seriously blow back on the CDS and the government.
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Re: 16 Jan 2017 - VCDS relieved of duty
« Reply #216 on: April 23, 2017, 10:36:29 »
If the Ontario Superior Court's view is upheld, this has the potential to seriously blow back on the CDS and the government.

Concur. This could potentially be a Mike Duffy incident for the Liberal government, but with a lot more ability to embarrass because its easy to link to elected officials.

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Re: 16 Jan 2017 - VCDS relieved of duty
« Reply #217 on: April 23, 2017, 10:48:48 »
The Norman issue came up on CTV's Question Period with the former head of CSIS. Right at the end of the piece old Craig Oliver stated without reservation that Adm Norman would do nothing to harm the security of Canada and inferred that there will be blowback on the perpetrators of this farce.

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Re: 16 Jan 2017 - VCDS relieved of duty
« Reply #218 on: April 23, 2017, 10:57:01 »
If the Ontario Superior Court's view is upheld, this has the potential to seriously blow back on the CDS and the government.
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Re: 16 Jan 2017 - VCDS relieved of duty
« Reply #219 on: April 23, 2017, 11:19:06 »
If the Ontario Superior Court's view is upheld, this has the potential to seriously blow back on the CDS and the government.

I do not see this causing our CDS any problem, even with the revelatory trend happily moving in Vice-Admiral Norman's favour. Even a hint of impropriety would require such action as he took.

The government, and Irving, by comparison, will likely not look good as this continues to develop, and I'll not weep much for either.

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Re: 16 Jan 2017 - VCDS relieved of duty
« Reply #220 on: April 23, 2017, 11:51:04 »
....Craig Oliver stated without reservation that Adm Norman would do nothing to harm the security of Canada and inferred that there will be blowback on the perpetrators of this farce.
I agree with the first bit.  But I suspect that once the media and average Canadian see that there's no linking a high-ranking military person to sexual abuse, inappropriate PW training 20-30 years ago, killing subordinates with their panties on your head, etc.... the "blowback" will be insignificant. 

The CDS can justify his actions as due diligence.  The other target would be the government.  Is the media likely to hold this government accountable for anything,  let alone something as uninteresting as military procurement....?!  [Maybe I missed the public outcry at the budget putting defence $$$ in abeyance]

There's another day or two... maybe three because it's the weekend... of voyeuristic interest in reading any 'blacked-out bits,'  then it's no longer news.  Even for a wrongful dismissal suit, if there's cause, won't make it to page 3.

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Re: 16 Jan 2017 - VCDS relieved of duty
« Reply #221 on: April 23, 2017, 12:30:13 »
I do not see this causing our CDS any problem, even with the revelatory trend happily moving in Vice-Admiral Norman's favour. Even a hint of impropriety would require such action as he took.

The government, and Irving, by comparison, will likely not look good as this continues to develop, and I'll not weep much for either.

 :goodpost:

I'll add that should this all go pear shaped for the sunshine gang, I expect the monetary costs to be paid out as a result will be eye watering.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2017, 12:38:42 by jollyjacktar »

Offline Oldgateboatdriver

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Re: 16 Jan 2017 - VCDS relieved of duty
« Reply #222 on: April 23, 2017, 13:17:11 »
Personally, I found the view of Richard Fadden (ex-head of CSIS) more interesting: First of all, he called the type of politically driven / civil service arses-covering secrecy at issue here "quasi-confidential" as opposed to truly being national secret. Then he went on to state that this type of information is leaked over coffee by everyone on a daily basis in Ottawa. He finally concluded that, he sincerely hopes that this is not the type of leak at issue, but that to justify the unprecedented action taken, there is something truly much more nefarious at issue. He intimated that otherwise ....


Modified to replace "serious" with the word that was on the tip of my tongue and finally came to me: "nefarious".
« Last Edit: April 23, 2017, 13:42:06 by Oldgateboatdriver »

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Re: 16 Jan 2017 - VCDS relieved of duty
« Reply #223 on: April 23, 2017, 13:56:00 »
I do not see this causing our CDS any problem, even with the revelatory trend happily moving in Vice-Admiral Norman's favour. Even a hint of impropriety would require such action as he took.

The government, and Irving, by comparison, will likely not look good as this continues to develop, and I'll not weep much for either.

The CDS can justify his actions as due diligence.  The other target would be the government.  Is the media likely to hold this government accountable for anything,  let alone something as uninteresting as military procurement....?!  [Maybe I missed the public outcry at the budget putting defence $$$ in abeyance]

I'm not sure I can agree with you. If the CDS acted at the urging of a cabinet official, or if the flash-to-bang time was protracted, it looks bad on the General. Of course neither the CDS nor Cabinet are going to admit that, but from what little has already been released, we can infer some political butt covering.
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Offline Chris Pook

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Re: 16 Jan 2017 - VCDS relieved of duty
« Reply #224 on: April 23, 2017, 18:03:52 »
I'm not sure I can agree with you. If the CDS acted at the urging of a cabinet official, or if the flash-to-bang time was protracted, it looks bad on the General. Of course neither the CDS nor Cabinet are going to admit that, but from what little has already been released, we can infer some political butt covering.

The CDS, like every other soldier, still gets orders to follow.  And those orders come from elected civilians via their civilian minions. 

In any event, regardless of any orders, all that the CDS did was relieve him of duties, effectively suspend him, until the issue could be cleared up.  The Admiral would have been unable to function effectively in any event with an ongoing investigation hanging over him.

I don't see any issue affecting the CDS.
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