Author Topic: Place of Duty means... What?  (Read 3265 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Lumber

  • Donor
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *
  • 40,034
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 1,558
Place of Duty means... What?
« on: March 16, 2017, 16:46:24 »
Chapter 5 of CFTDTIs "Travel Within Place of Duty" states that this chapter applies to those:

Quote
(a) on TD at a temporary workplace that is inside the member’s place of duty;

The CFTDTIs say that:

Quote
place of duty” has the same meaning as in CBI 208.80 (Applications and Definitions).

Ok, off to CBI 208.80:

Quote
place of duty - means the place at which an officer or non-commissioned member usually performs their normal military duties and includes any place in the surrounding geographical area that is determined to be part thereof by the Chief of the Defence Staff or such other officer as the Chief of the Defence Staff may designate.

Thanks for the clarification! #sarcasm What is included in the "surrounding geographical area"? I can't find this at all. One way that I've heard of it being interpreted is as being the same area as the PLDA (PLD Area) for a given town/city. But what about units/stations etc. that don't have PLD areas?

The National Joint Council's Travel Directive, from which the CFTDTIs are spawned, uses the term "Headquarters area" in place of the term "Place of Duty", and they define "Headquarters area" as:

Quote
Headquarters area (zone d'affectation) - for the purposes of this directive, spans an area of 16 kms from the assigned workplace using the most direct, safe and practical road.


So, how big, exactly, is the the "Place of Duty"? Is it 16km surrounding your individual unit? Or Is it the geographical boundaries of your PLD Area?

Cheers
“Extremes to the right and to the left of any political dispute are always wrong.”
― Dwight D. Eisenhower


Death before dishonour! Nothing before coffee!

Offline the 48th regulator

    A mans gotta eat.

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *
  • 47,170
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 7,967
  • Emancipate yourself from mental slavery.
    • Green Veterans Canada
Re: Place of Duty means... What?
« Reply #1 on: March 16, 2017, 17:35:45 »
Admin staff would probably be able to answer this better.

You are talking about two separate issues.

Travel, and Living.

Travel, your duty area is 16 km, by driving, not by birds eye view.  I proved that a few years ago with DND.

Living - PLD is based on the area you live, to deflect extra costs to reside in said area.  That boundary is completely different.

So my question to you is, what is the purpose of the knowledge (Without getting into personal details) so the question can be answered properly.

Dileas

Tess

I know that I’m not perfect and that I don’t claim to be, so before you point your fingers make sure your hands are clean.

Offline the 48th regulator

    A mans gotta eat.

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *
  • 47,170
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 7,967
  • Emancipate yourself from mental slavery.
    • Green Veterans Canada
Re: Place of Duty means... What?
« Reply #2 on: March 16, 2017, 17:40:02 »
And for reference on Travel;

Canadian Forces Temporary Duty Travel Instructions

Dileas

Tess
I know that I’m not perfect and that I don’t claim to be, so before you point your fingers make sure your hands are clean.

Offline the 48th regulator

    A mans gotta eat.

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *
  • 47,170
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 7,967
  • Emancipate yourself from mental slavery.
    • Green Veterans Canada
Re: Place of Duty means... What?
« Reply #3 on: March 16, 2017, 17:46:42 »


Chapter 205 - Allowances for Officers and Non-Commissioned Members


205.45 - Post Living Differential (PLD)

205.45(1) (Definitions) The definitions in this paragraph apply in this instruction.

cost of living

    means the sum of money required to provide for the following categories of household expenditures for a household of three persons, with a household income as may be determined from time to time by the Minister:

        shelter costs;
        goods and Services – food at home, food away from home, household furnishings, clothing, domestic service (including day-care), medical care, personal care, recreation, tobacco, and alcohol;
        transportation – operating and owning two automobiles; and
        taxation – federal, provincial, and sales.

marginal tax rate

    means the second from the lowest personal federal tax rate combined with the applicable provincial or territorial tax rate without any surcharge or reduction.
member

    means an officer or non-commissioned member.
place of duty

    has the same meaning as in CBI 209.80 (Application and Definitions).
post living differential area

    means a location in Canada within the boundaries of a place of duty where the cost of living exceeds that of the Standard City cost of living.
principal residence

    means a dwelling in Canada, other than a summer cottage, other seasonal accommodation or a single quarter that is occupied by the member or their dependants, and is situated at:

        the member's place of duty, if their household goods and effects are located at that place;
        the member's former place of duty, if the member is not authorized to move their household goods and effects at public expense to their place of duty;
        the place where the member's household goods and effects were located on enrolment, if that place is a place of duty and the member is not authorized to move their household goods and effects at public expense to their place of duty; or
        any other place of duty, selected place of residence or designated alternate location, if the member is authorized to move their household goods and effects at public expense to that place, except for the purpose of release or transfer to the Reserve Force.

service couple

    means two members who are married or in a common-law partnership as defined in QR&O 1.075 (Common-law partner and common-law partnership).
standard city

    means the cost of living in the National Capital Region (Ottawa/Gatineau), as determined by the Minister in consultation with independent firm(s) with the expertise in the field of cost of living determination. Standard City excludes data from isolated post locations.

205.45(2) (Abbreviations) The following abbreviations are used in this instruction:

    AAA means Accommodation Assistance Allowance;
    COL means Cost of Living;
    PLD means Post Living Differential; and
    PLDA means Post Living Differential Area.

205.45(3) (Policy) The purpose of the PLD is to reduce the adverse financial impact on military members and their families when posted to a PLDA (excluding isolated posts) with a COL above the national average. PLD rates represent the monthly differential between the COL at the Standard City and the COL at established PLDAs, grossed-up by the applicable marginal tax rate. PLD rates are taxable and are set annually based on a Treasury Board-approved methodology.

205.45(4) (Entitlement – Regular Force) Subject to paragraphs (7) to (19), a member of the Regular Force whose principal residence is located within a PLDA is entitled to the PLD rate for that location established in the Table to this instruction for that area.

205.45(5) (Entitlement – Reserve Force) Subject to paragraphs (7) to(19), a member who is authorized to move their household goods and effects at public expense to their place of duty for a period of nationally-solicited Class B or C Reserve Service is entitled, for that period of service, to the monthly PLD rate established in the Table to this instruction for the member's PLDA if:

    that place of duty is within a PLDA;
    the member's principal residence is located within that PLDA; and
    the move was not authorized as a return move upon completion of a period of Class B or C Reserve Service.

Top of Page

205.45(6) (Subsequent periods of service) Subject to paragraphs (7) to (19), a member who commences a new period of nationally-solicited Class B or C Reserve Service within 90 days of completing the entire period of service described in paragraph (5) (i.e., no early termination initiated by member), is entitled to the PLD established in the Table to this instruction for the member's PLDA if:

    the new period of service is performed at the same place of duty as the previous period of service;
    that place of duty is within a PLDA; and
    the member's principal residence is located within that PLDA.

205.45(7) (Change in boundary of place of duty) If a geographical area that forms part of a place of duty is redefined under the authority of CBI 209.80 (Application and Definitions), a member whose principal residence was located in that PLDA remains entitled to PLD, at the rate established in the Table to this instruction for that PLDA, while they, or their dependants, occupy that residence, or in the case of a member on a period of Class B or C Reserve Service, until the end of that period of service.

205.45(8) (PLD at other than the place of duty) For the purposes of this instruction;

    when a PLD rate exists at the location of the principal residence, the member is entitled to the lower of the PLD rate for that PLDA, or the PLD rate established in the Table to this instruction for the PLDA for the member's place of duty when the member;
        is posted from one place of duty to another place of duty and in lieu of moving at public expense, chooses to commute between their principal residence at their former place of duty and their new place of duty,
        is not posted, but chooses, and is authorized, to move at their own expense to another location where they establish a principal residence, or
        is posted to a new place of duty and is authorized by the Minister of National Defence to move to a location other than the place of duty, in accordance with CBI Chapter 209 (Transportation and Travelling Expenses), Section 9 (Integrated Relocation Pilot Program) where they establish a principal residence, and
    when a member is posted from one place of duty to another place of duty and the member is authorized to move dependants to a selected place of residence in Canada under paragraph (1)(h) in CBI 209.82 (Movement of Dependants), or, to a designated alternative location or selected place of residence in Canada under paragraph (5) in CBI 209.90 (Movement of Dependants, Furniture and Effects to Other Than the Place of Duty of the Officer or Non-commissioned Member), the member is entitled to the PLD established in the Table to this instruction for the PLDA for the location of the new principal residence.

205.45(9) (Not entitled) A member is not entitled to the PLD if:

    their principal residence is located at an isolated post as defined in CBI 205.40 (Isolation Allowance); or
    the monthly PLD rate is $50 or less.

205.45(10) (Joint occupation) A member is entitled to receive 75% of the PLD if they jointly occupy a principal residence with another member who is entitled to the PLD.

205.45(11) (Service couple) If both members of a service couple are entitled to the PLD for the same PLDA, and jointly occupy a principal residence, each member is only entitled to receive 75% of the PLD rate.

205.45(12) (Member of service couple posted) A member of a service couple referred to in paragraph (11) who is posted to a new place of duty:

    authorized to move, is entitled to receive an unreduced PLD for the PLDA in respect of the principal residence at the new place of duty. Their service spouse who remains at the previous location unaccompanied ceases to be entitled to PLD; or
    not authorized to move, is not entitled to receive the PLD in respect of the principal residence at the former place of duty. Their service spouse who remains at the previous location in their principal residence reverts to 100 percent of the PLD for the PLDA for the location of their principal residence.

Note

Where a military spouse, who is a member of the Reserve Force is moved in accordance with CBI 209.80 (Movement of Dependants), but not for the purpose of a period of Reserve service at the new place of duty, the spouse is moved as a dependant in accordance with paragraph (3)(a) of that instruction and is not entitled to PLD.

205.45(13) (Member of service couple on attachment) A member of a service couple referred to in paragraph (11) who is on an attachment and who maintains a principal residence at the former place of duty during the period of the attachment is deemed to serve at the former place of duty and to occupy that residence.

205.45(14) (Member without dependants) A member without dependants who maintains a principal residence at a place of duty while serving on an attached posting, remains entitled to PLD for the duration of the posting, at the rate established in this instruction's Table for that location's PLDA.

205.45(15) (Repealed)

205.45(16) (Repealed)

205.45(17) (AAA - Regular Force) A member who, on 31 March 2000, was receiving a monthly AAA under the Regulations Concerning Accommodation Assistance Allowance at a rate higher than that provided for under this instruction, is entitled to PLD at an amount equal to the higher AAA rate until the earlier of:

    the date on which the PLD for the PLDA established in the Table to this instruction exceeds the amount the member was receiving;
    the date on which the member departs from their principal residence; or
    1 April 2008, at which time the member shall be considered for TPLD in accordance with CBI 205.452 (Transitional Post Living Differential).

205.45(18) (AAA - Reserve Force) A member on a period of Class C Reserve Service is entitled to receive AAA in accordance with paragraph (17), with the condition that the entitlement will terminate on the earlier date determined under sub-paragraphs (a) and (b), or the date that period of service ends.

205.45(19) (Administrative Process) Members whose principal residence is located in a PLDA, and who request the PLD benefit, must complete the Post Living Differential Request Form and submit it to their Unit Records Support for approval and processing. In approving each request, Unit Records Support authorities will confirm that the conditions of this instruction are satisfied, and enter approved requests into the pay system.

(TB, effective 1 April 2008)

Top of Page
Table to CBI 205.45
PLDA   Monthly PLD (in dollars) after March 2008

Aldergrove
   418

Barrie -Borden
   0

Brantford
   0

Calgary
   711

Cambridge
   71

Chatham ON
   0

Chilliwack
   0

Cold Lake
   319

Corner Brook
   0

Dundurn-Saskatoon
   0

Edmonton
   684

Gander
   0

Grand Falls - Windsor
   0

Guelph
   167

Halifax
   631

Hamilton
   414

Kamloops/Kelowna
   525

Kenora
   0

Kingston
   0

Kitchener
   62

Lethbridge
   234

London
   0

Meaford-Owen Sound
   77

Medicine Hat
   145

Montreal North Shore
   505

Montreal South Shore
   376

Moose Jaw
   284

Nanaimo
   75

Niagara/St. Catharines
   0

North Bay
   0

Ottawa/Gatineau
   0

Peterborough - DND
   0

Prince Albert
   0

Quebec City - Valcartier
   117

Red Deer
   327

Regina
   62

Rouyn-Noranda
   0

Sarnia
   0

Saskatoon
   382

Sault Ste Marie
   0

Sept -Îles -DND
   107

Sherbrooke
   0

Shilo
   0

Saint-Hyacinthe
   0

Saint-Jean-sur-Richelieu
   0

St. John's
   149

Stratford - DND
   82

Sudbury
   0

Thunder Bay
   0

Timmins
   0

Toronto Area 1
   1,485

Toronto Area 2
   506

Toronto Area 3
   522

Toronto Area 4
   819

Toronto Area 5
   1,167

Trail
   0

Vancouver
   1,083

Victoria/Esquimalt
   816

Windsor
   0

Winnipeg
   0

(TB, effective 1 April 2008)
I know that I’m not perfect and that I don’t claim to be, so before you point your fingers make sure your hands are clean.

Offline Eye In The Sky

  • I can count to potato!
  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 174,915
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 7,329
    • VP INTERNATIONAL
Re: Place of Duty means... What?
« Reply #4 on: March 16, 2017, 17:49:55 »
Ref the PLD/PLDAs part...for bases/wings that aren't PLDAs, they still have the geographical boundary that is used to determine where a mbr can reside, be moved to at public expense with no approval/review required by their unit and base.  Those should still be avail on the DWAN (I am away with no access to DWAN right now...).

Regarding your question though, I can't see the geo boundary as referring to your *place of duty*.  Some boundaries are pretty big from side to side, top to bottom.  The 16kms sounds like it would make sense...
"Stop telling everyone I'm an *******; I like to see the look on their face when they realize it for themselves..."

Offline the 48th regulator

    A mans gotta eat.

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *
  • 47,170
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 7,967
  • Emancipate yourself from mental slavery.
    • Green Veterans Canada
Re: Place of Duty means... What?
« Reply #5 on: March 16, 2017, 17:54:20 »
Ref the PLD/PLDAs part...for bases/wings that aren't PLDAs, they still have the geographical boundary that is used to determine where a mbr can reside, be moved to at public expense with no approval/review required by their unit and base.  Those should still be avail on the DWAN (I am away with no access to DWAN right now...).

Regarding your question though, I can't see the geo boundary as referring to your *place of duty*.  Some boundaries are pretty big from side to side, top to bottom.  The 16kms sounds like it would make sense...

I am not trying to start an argument, but your post is muddying the waters.  *place of duty* for travel, and for living are two separate issues, and should not be confused.

dileas

tess
I know that I’m not perfect and that I don’t claim to be, so before you point your fingers make sure your hands are clean.

Offline Eye In The Sky

  • I can count to potato!
  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 174,915
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 7,329
    • VP INTERNATIONAL
Re: Place of Duty means... What?
« Reply #6 on: March 16, 2017, 18:01:49 »
I am not trying to start an argument, but your post is muddying the waters.  *place of duty* for travel, and for living are two separate issues, and should not be confused.

dileas

tess

No worries, I should have been more specific WRT to the PLDA/geo boundary part.  It was directed towards this part...

What is included in the "surrounding geographical area"? I can't find this at all. One way that I've heard of it being interpreted is as being the same area as the PLDA (PLD Area) for a given town/city. But what about units/stations etc. that don't have PLD areas?

But, I also meant I don't believe that a PLDA or geo boundary is meant to be the definition of *place of duty* WRT CFTDI stuff.  There are other location/stations/etc that are close to where I am posted and where I live, but they are not in any way my *place of duty*.

"Stop telling everyone I'm an *******; I like to see the look on their face when they realize it for themselves..."

Offline Lumber

  • Donor
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *
  • 40,034
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 1,558
Re: Place of Duty means... What?
« Reply #7 on: March 16, 2017, 18:35:15 »
Admin staff would probably be able to answer this better.

You are talking about two separate issues.

Travel, and Living.

Travel, your duty area is 16 km, by driving, not by birds eye view.  I proved that a few years ago with DND.

Living - PLD is based on the area you live, to deflect extra costs to reside in said area.  That boundary is completely different.

So my question to you is, what is the purpose of the knowledge (Without getting into personal details) so the question can be answered properly.

Dileas

Tess

Slow down '48. I'm not talking about two different issues. Read my post again.

I am specifically, and only, asking about the application of Chapter 5 of CFTDTIs. What encompasses your "place of duty". I only mentioned the PLDA, because I have heard and seen through other organizations and units, that they have, in practice, used the PLDA boundaries as the "Place of Duty" boundaries as well, because, like me, they haven't seen anything more clear.

Travel, your duty area is 16 km, by driving, not by birds eye view.  I proved that a few years ago with DND.

Can you provide a reference for this? The NJC travel directive states, as I already quoted, that the "headquarters" is 16km, but the applicable military reference, CBI 280.80, does not specify this. It only says that it would be decided by the Chief of the Defence Staff, and so far, I have not seen any orders to that effect. (The National Travel Directive is not issued by the CDS).

So, we have a government wide reference that says it is 16km, but then we have the military CBI that says "well, we'll actually let the CDS tell you what it is", and I have no third reference to fill in the hole.
“Extremes to the right and to the left of any political dispute are always wrong.”
― Dwight D. Eisenhower


Death before dishonour! Nothing before coffee!

Online Blackadder1916

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 113,785
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 2,427
Re: Place of Duty means... What?
« Reply #8 on: March 16, 2017, 19:00:41 »

Can you provide a reference for this? The NJC travel directive states, as I already quoted, that the "headquarters" is 16km, but the applicable military reference, CBI 280.80, does not specify this. It only says that it would be decided by the Chief of the Defence Staff, and so far, I have not seen any orders to that effect. (The National Travel Directive is not issued by the CDS).

So, we have a government wide reference that says it is 16km, but then we have the military CBI that says "well, we'll actually let the CDS tell you what it is", and I have no third reference to fill in the hole.

The magic 16 kms are also used in CBI 209.045 - Transportation Assistance for Reserve Force Personnel on Class A Reserve Service .  While it doesn't define HQs or place of duty, it adds "worksite" to the discussion which it defines as "a building or other place where an officer or non-commissioned member reports for training or duty".
Whisky for the gentlemen that like it. And for the gentlemen that don't like it - Whisky.

Offline the 48th regulator

    A mans gotta eat.

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *
  • 47,170
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 7,967
  • Emancipate yourself from mental slavery.
    • Green Veterans Canada
Re: Place of Duty means... What?
« Reply #9 on: March 16, 2017, 19:24:13 »
Can you provide a reference for this? The NJC travel directive states, as I already quoted, that the "headquarters" is 16km, but the applicable military reference, CBI 280.80, does not specify this. It only says that it would be decided by the Chief of the Defence Staff, and so far, I have not seen any orders to that effect. (The National Travel Directive is not issued by the CDS).

So, we have a government wide reference that says it is 16km, but then we have the military CBI that says "well, we'll actually let the CDS tell you what it is", and I have no third reference to fill in the hole.

NJC travel directive does not pertain to serving members, now you are really making this confusing.

CFTDI  Military
NJC travel directive Civillian personell (Remember we also have a Union, which you do not have, that helps negotiate)

Two absolutely different animals, and Every clerk will tell you this.  Civillian and Military.

Then you bring up Geographical location regarding PLD, again, another different set of beans.

Don't know what you aretrying to accomplish.  Sorry for interfering.

dileas

tess
I know that I’m not perfect and that I don’t claim to be, so before you point your fingers make sure your hands are clean.

Offline Lumber

  • Donor
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *
  • 40,034
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 1,558
Re: Place of Duty means... What?
« Reply #10 on: March 16, 2017, 19:40:56 »
NJC travel directive does not pertain to serving members, now you are really making this confusing.

Sorry, but you are incorrect. The NJC travel directive is where we draw our kilometric rates, meal rates, private non-commercial accommodation rates,  and incidental rates. So, it does apply, in part, to military personnel.


Don't know what you are trying to accomplish.  Sorry for interfering.


As I've said TWICE now, I am trying to determine where Chapter 5 of CFTDTIs apply. The rules for meals entitlements are different between Chapter 5 and the Chapter 6, 7 and 8. In Chapters 6, 7 and 8, you are entitled to the meal-time rate (lunch, dinner, supper), as set out in the NJC Travel Directive. In Chapter 5, however, members are entitled to "actual and reasonable" expenses, meaning you could claim more than the meal-time rate, if it was actual and reasonable.

We conduct outreach and recruiting events all over our area, and as a reserve unit, we have a large area. I need to know that when we are sending personnel to an event at location X, whether their TD is administered through Chapters 5 or 6, which is important, because their meal entitlements differ.

The magic 16 kms are also used in CBI 209.045 - Transportation Assistance for Reserve Force Personnel on Class A Reserve Service .  While it doesn't define HQs or place of duty, it adds "worksite" to the discussion which it defines as "a building or other place where an officer or non-commissioned member reports for training or duty".


While this does shed some light and allow us to infer what perhaps the "Place of Duty" area actually is, it can't be considered as definitive authority. Good catch, though. I'm starting to feel like 16km is the right number.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2017, 20:17:00 by Lumber »
“Extremes to the right and to the left of any political dispute are always wrong.”
― Dwight D. Eisenhower


Death before dishonour! Nothing before coffee!

Offline the 48th regulator

    A mans gotta eat.

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *
  • 47,170
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 7,967
  • Emancipate yourself from mental slavery.
    • Green Veterans Canada
Re: Place of Duty means... What?
« Reply #11 on: March 16, 2017, 19:55:48 »
Roger,

dileas

tess
I know that I’m not perfect and that I don’t claim to be, so before you point your fingers make sure your hands are clean.

Offline Lumber

  • Donor
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *
  • 40,034
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 1,558
Re: Place of Duty means... What?
« Reply #12 on: March 16, 2017, 20:18:27 »
Travel, your duty area is 16 km, by driving, not by birds eye view.  I proved that a few years ago with DND.

So, how do you prove this? If you could share your insight, I'd really appreciate. None of the references have anything that I could consider to be definitive proof.
“Extremes to the right and to the left of any political dispute are always wrong.”
― Dwight D. Eisenhower


Death before dishonour! Nothing before coffee!

Offline the 48th regulator

    A mans gotta eat.

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *
  • 47,170
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 7,967
  • Emancipate yourself from mental slavery.
    • Green Veterans Canada
Re: Place of Duty means... What?
« Reply #13 on: March 16, 2017, 20:27:29 »
So, how do you prove this? If you could share your insight, I'd really appreciate. None of the references have anything that I could consider to be definitive proof.

Well,

Working in the JPSU as a Civilian employee, I had the benefit of understanding Travel.  I do much travel being an employee of an organization that did Peer support work for the last 9 years.

We did visits, Briefings and Outreach.

So there is my CV

Understand this,a and I am not going to repeat myself, nor allow you to brow beat me because you are not being g spoon fed the information you want.

CFTDI is your bible for travel. PERIOD.  The only reason you look at the NJC is for rates.  That is supposed to be equal for all Canadians that work for the Government.  Treasury Board Rules.

How that is managed is based on the Department.  So CAF members, NOT DND civilians, must use the CFTDI.  FOR ALL TRAVEL.

The NJCTD is for Civilian (And military managers) that work with employees that travel.  This is the guideline they use.

PLD has sweet bugger all with what you are asking.  Nada nothing zilch. 

So, before I see another Uppity little post from you, chum, I suggest you read the information I provided, as I am sure like me, no one is going to do your homework.  And next time, get your facts straight before berating those that are trying to help you.

dileas

tess
I know that I’m not perfect and that I don’t claim to be, so before you point your fingers make sure your hands are clean.

Offline captloadie

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • 32,173
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 555
Re: Place of Duty means... What?
« Reply #14 on: March 16, 2017, 20:41:36 »
Lumber,
The entitlement to a meal under Chapter 5 would only apply if there was no means for the member to either bring their own lunch and have a place to store it, purchase their own lunch, or eat a lunch provided by the crown. There would be very few instances where this would apply. Perhaps a working lunch away from the office/unit that is mandatory. Maybe a remote job site where members aren't able to leave the site, but food is brought in ( a food truck, or some sort of delivery). I do believe that most units use the geographical boundary as a guideline to determine this. There is no set distance, you are just remaining inside "the circle". Not every answer is going to be black and white in the book. You need to sometimes make the best decision based on what you can interpret from the regs, and what is common sense. That is why you get paid the big bucks.

Online Blackadder1916

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 113,785
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 2,427
Re: Place of Duty means... What?
« Reply #15 on: March 16, 2017, 20:43:02 »
I think that what you need is the geographical boundaries of your place of duty.  This, from another thread, may prove to be a useful link or at least a suggestion on who can answer your question.

Copied from: http://cmp-cpm.mil.ca/en/benefits/geographical-boundaries.page (DWAN link)

Geographical boundaries describe a place of duty.  They are established by local commanders in accordance with CBI 208.80(3) and CFAO 209-28(3).  The collection of CAF places of duty are published by DCBA as they are received from local authorities.  When there is doubt, members should contact their base orderly rooms for written confirmation.  Descriptions are to be used as a guide only.
Whisky for the gentlemen that like it. And for the gentlemen that don't like it - Whisky.

Offline Lumber

  • Donor
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *
  • 40,034
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 1,558
Re: Place of Duty means... What?
« Reply #16 on: March 16, 2017, 21:01:31 »
Well,

Working in the JPSU as a Civilian employee, I had the benefit of understanding Travel.  I do much travel being an employee of an organization that did Peer support work for the last 9 years.

We did visits, Briefings and Outreach.

So there is my CV

Understand this,a and I am not going to repeat myself, nor allow you to brow beat me because you are not being g spoon fed the information you want.

CFTDI is your bible for travel. PERIOD.  The only reason you look at the NJC is for rates.  That is supposed to be equal for all Canadians that work for the Government.  Treasury Board Rules.

How that is managed is based on the Department.  So CAF members, NOT DND civilians, must use the CFTDI.  FOR ALL TRAVEL.

The NJCTD is for Civilian (And military managers) that work with employees that travel.  This is the guideline they use.

PLD has sweet bugger all with what you are asking.  Nada nothing zilch. 

So, before I see another Uppity little post from you, chum, I suggest you read the information I provided, as I am sure like me, no one is going to do your homework.  And next time, get your facts straight before berating those that are trying to help you.

dileas

tess

First, you still haven't provided with any applicable reference, or an explanation of how you convinced people that it was 16km (you sure haven't convinced me).

Second, I don't know if you are even reading my posts. I literally quoted CFTDTIs in my first post, and yet one of your responses was "by the way, here's the reference, CFTDTIs". I also never said multiple times that this has anything to do with PLD, and yet you decided to copy and paste the entire CBI on PLD, and you keep repeating "PLD has nothing to do with this". I know! All I said was, "I have heard of other organizations, for lack of any other useful information, use the defined geographical boundaries of the PLDA as the boundaries for "Place of Duty". Period, nothing else.  I did not say that that Place of Duty has anything to do with PLD, I just said that for lack of any other information, I've heard of people are using PLDA as a geographic "guideline".

Second, I'm in charge of the Finance section at my unit, and my small unit has made over 300 individual travel arrangements this year. I have read CFTDTIs from cover to cover, several times; I practically have it memorized. I have a better understanding of TD Travel than my HR-Mgr. My OR comes to me for clarification on aspects of the CFTDTIs. I can tell you, without a shred of doubt, that a description of the geographic boundaries for "Place of Duty" is not contained in the CFTDTIs, nor is it in CBI 280.80.

I'm not asking to be spoon fed; I'm asking for a very specific kernel of information: "what is the geographical area around a unit that is considered to be the 'place of duty'". You have claimed to have knowledge of this, yet you have refused to provide any proof. "Working at JPSU" at "understanding travel" doesn't mean squat to me unless you can back it up with quotes form a reference. I've provided you with quotes from three different references, and yet you tell me I need to get my facts straight? I didn't come here for "I'm an expert; trust me" me responses. I will potentially get audited for these claims (more likely than not, since Petawawa seems to have a hard-on for auditing), and I need to have official references to back up my actions.
“Extremes to the right and to the left of any political dispute are always wrong.”
― Dwight D. Eisenhower


Death before dishonour! Nothing before coffee!

Offline Lumber

  • Donor
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *
  • 40,034
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 1,558
Re: Place of Duty means... What?
« Reply #17 on: March 16, 2017, 21:05:34 »
Lumber,
The entitlement to a meal under Chapter 5 would only apply if there was no means for the member to either bring their own lunch and have a place to store it, purchase their own lunch, or eat a lunch provided by the crown. There would be very few instances where this would apply. Perhaps a working lunch away from the office/unit that is mandatory. Maybe a remote job site where members aren't able to leave the site, but food is brought in ( a food truck, or some sort of delivery). I do believe that most units use the geographical boundary as a guideline to determine this. There is no set distance, you are just remaining inside "the circle". Not every answer is going to be black and white in the book. You need to sometimes make the best decision based on what you can interpret from the regs, and what is common sense. That is why you get paid the big bucks.

An example where this would apply is, we sent a team of people to a "Boat Show" to man a booth at a recruiting event. There was no place for them to store or eat meals (no lunch room), and there was not enough time for them to return to the unit to eat their meals. So, this would apply:

Quote
5.18 - (2)(c) - (ii) there is no available meal facility (i.e. lunch room) for the member to eat a meal brought from home;
.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2017, 21:11:27 by Lumber »
“Extremes to the right and to the left of any political dispute are always wrong.”
― Dwight D. Eisenhower


Death before dishonour! Nothing before coffee!

Offline Lumber

  • Donor
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *
  • 40,034
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 1,558
Re: Place of Duty means... What?
« Reply #18 on: March 16, 2017, 21:10:37 »
I think that what you need is the geographical boundaries of your place of duty.  This, from another thread, may prove to be a useful link or at least a suggestion on who can answer your question.

Copied from: http://cmp-cpm.mil.ca/en/benefits/geographical-boundaries.page (DWAN link)

Geographical boundaries describe a place of duty.  They are established by local commanders in accordance with CBI 208.80(3) and CFAO 209-28(3).  The collection of CAF places of duty are published by DCBA as they are received from local authorities.  When there is doubt, members should contact their base orderly rooms for written confirmation.  Descriptions are to be used as a guide only.

Well holy crap!  I can't believe I didn't notice this.

I'm actually blown away.

There are two links in the Benefits "relocation" section of http://cmp-cpm.mil.ca/en/benefits/benefits-generic.page. One says "Post Living Differential Areas" and one says "Geographical Boundaries".

Each takes you to a page that has a different "introductory paragraph" and then provides a list of different cities with links to geographical boundaries.

And you know what?

Those boundaries for each city are EXACTLY THE SAME for both the "Geographic Areas" page and for "PLD Areas" page.

That means that the rumours I heard are actually true: Places of Duty are defined by the PLD Areas. So, they actually ARE related.

Thanks Blackadder!
« Last Edit: March 16, 2017, 21:19:10 by Lumber »
“Extremes to the right and to the left of any political dispute are always wrong.”
― Dwight D. Eisenhower


Death before dishonour! Nothing before coffee!

Offline Eye In The Sky

  • I can count to potato!
  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 174,915
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 7,329
    • VP INTERNATIONAL
Re: Place of Duty means... What?
« Reply #19 on: March 16, 2017, 21:30:07 »
Ref the PLD/PLDAs part...for bases/wings that aren't PLDAs, they still have the geographical boundary that is used to determine where a mbr can reside, be moved to at public expense with no approval/review required by their unit and base.  Those should still be avail on the DWAN (I am away with no access to DWAN right now...).

 ;)

I have the link in my Favorites at work but...I am not very close to a DWAN computer at this particular time.  But I guess I was wrong on the linked part to *place of duty*.   ;D
« Last Edit: March 16, 2017, 21:37:44 by Eye In The Sky »
"Stop telling everyone I'm an *******; I like to see the look on their face when they realize it for themselves..."

Offline the 48th regulator

    A mans gotta eat.

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *
  • 47,170
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 7,967
  • Emancipate yourself from mental slavery.
    • Green Veterans Canada
Re: Place of Duty means... What?
« Reply #20 on: March 16, 2017, 21:41:30 »


Well holy crap!  I can't believe I didn't notice this.

I'm actually blown away.

There are two links in the Benefits "relocation" section of http://cmp-cpm.mil.ca/en/benefits/benefits-generic.page. One says "Post Living Differential Areas" and one says "Geographical Boundaries".

Each takes you to a page that has a different "introductory paragraph" and then provides a list of different cities with links to geographical boundaries.

And you know what?

Those boundaries for each city are EXACTLY THE SAME for both the "Geographic Areas" page and for "PLD Areas" page.

That means that the rumours I heard are actually true: Places of Duty are defined by the PLD Areas. So, they actually ARE related.

Thanks Blackadder!

Second, I'm in charge of the Finance section at my unit, and my small unit has made over 300 individual travel arrangements this year.

And you are using an online forum to garner expertise in working to fincancially support your unit.  I know for a fact there are official resources you can use, and I was never "In Charge" of a financial unit.

As the saying goes, it is in black and white. No interpretations needed.  Period.

That came from someone that writes CBI's but who the heck do I know, eh?

dileas

tess
I know that I’m not perfect and that I don’t claim to be, so before you point your fingers make sure your hands are clean.

Offline Eye In The Sky

  • I can count to potato!
  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 174,915
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 7,329
    • VP INTERNATIONAL
Re: Place of Duty means... What?
« Reply #21 on: March 16, 2017, 21:47:47 »
Tess, lots of us use the forum to ping off each other for stuff.  We both know the DWAN isn't the most search-friendly place and all that jazz...
"Stop telling everyone I'm an *******; I like to see the look on their face when they realize it for themselves..."

Offline Lumber

  • Donor
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *
  • 40,034
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 1,558
Re: Place of Duty means... What?
« Reply #22 on: March 16, 2017, 22:05:07 »
And you are using an online forum to garner expertise in working to fincancially support your unit.  I know for a fact there are official resources you can use, and I was never "In Charge" of a financial unit.

As the saying goes, it is in black and white. No interpretations needed.  Period.

That came from someone that writes CBI's but who the heck do I know, eh?

dileas

tess

Absolutely! Just look through my history of posts. I've left numerous queries on here for official answers, and I often get answers really quick. Some of the people who follow this site, including dapaterson, DOA, Eye in the Sky, Recce, are all highly experienced and great people to lean on. There are a ton of experts on here, and they are happy to provide quick answers to specific questions.

When I go through normal channels, I often get a busy tone, a voicemail, or told I need to make an official enquiry, which often takes a while.
“Extremes to the right and to the left of any political dispute are always wrong.”
― Dwight D. Eisenhower


Death before dishonour! Nothing before coffee!

Offline the 48th regulator

    A mans gotta eat.

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *
  • 47,170
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 7,967
  • Emancipate yourself from mental slavery.
    • Green Veterans Canada
Re: Place of Duty means... What?
« Reply #23 on: March 16, 2017, 23:18:21 »
Tess, lots of us use the forum to ping off each other for stuff.  We both know the DWAN isn't the most search-friendly place and all that jazz...

Totally understand, but when people bite your hand when offering info, I get my hackles up.

Lumber, sorry for beng aggressive.  EITS brings up a good point, and I am barking at you for using all available resources.  My bad.

dileas

tess
I know that I’m not perfect and that I don’t claim to be, so before you point your fingers make sure your hands are clean.

Offline captloadie

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • 32,173
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 555
Re: Place of Duty means... What?
« Reply #24 on: March 17, 2017, 12:39:37 »


Well holy crap!  I can't believe I didn't notice this.

I'm actually blown away.

There are two links in the Benefits "relocation" section of http://cmp-cpm.mil.ca/en/benefits/benefits-generic.page. One says "Post Living Differential Areas" and one says "Geographical Boundaries".

Each takes you to a page that has a different "introductory paragraph" and then provides a list of different cities with links to geographical boundaries.

And you know what?

Those boundaries for each city are EXACTLY THE SAME for both the "Geographic Areas" page and for "PLD Areas" page.

That means that the rumours I heard are actually true: Places of Duty are defined by the PLD Areas. So, they actually ARE related.

Thanks Blackadder!

I would be careful making this assumption for the Toronto area. There are 5 different PLD areas, but I think only one geographical area. I would check on this as the PLD areas were set up for people to live close to work, but you could live anywhere in the Toronto area without asking to live outside the geographical area.

Offline Pusser

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 72,230
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 2,521
Re: Place of Duty means... What?
« Reply #25 on: March 20, 2017, 17:47:29 »
In Chapter 5, however, members are entitled to "actual and reasonable" expenses, meaning you could claim more than the meal-time rate, if it was actual and reasonable.


That's not true at all.  Before you question me, my pedigree includes compensation and benefits and I am well in tune with this sort of thing.

In simple terms, "actual" means you need a receipt in order to make the claim (to see what you actually spent) and "reasonable" means up to the limit proscribed in the NJC meal rates for that meal in that geographical area.  In other words, for the most part, you cannot claim more than the meal rate.  The only exception is that the Minister can approve reimbursement at a higher amount, but you would have   have a pretty hard time justifying it.

As for your original question, others have since answered it.  The "place of duty" is normally the geographical boundaries set for your particular unit.  By and large, these are the same as the PLD area, but Toronto is a notable exception.
Sure, apes read Nietzsche.  They just don't understand it.

Offline Lumber

  • Donor
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *
  • 40,034
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 1,558
Re: Place of Duty means... What?
« Reply #26 on: March 20, 2017, 18:06:30 »
That's not true at all.  Before you question me, my pedigree includes compensation and benefits and I am well in tune with this sort of thing.

In simple terms, "actual" means you need a receipt in order to make the claim (to see what you actually spent) and "reasonable" means up to the limit proscribed in the NJC meal rates for that meal in that geographical area.  In other words, for the most part, you cannot claim more than the meal rate.  The only exception is that the Minister can approve reimbursement at a higher amount, but you would have   have a pretty hard time justifying it.

As for your original question, others have since answered it.  The "place of duty" is normally the geographical boundaries set for your particular unit.  By and large, these are the same as the PLD area, but Toronto is a notable exception.

I think we're essentially saying the same thing; I'm just being a lot more liberal with it.

If we truly did send a member somewhere where the only option was to purchase a meal that was over the mealtime rate (I mean literally, 100% no other option), then I can't see the minister denying a request for reimbursement of the actual rate.

The "actual" rate is extremely important, because if your actual expense was below the meal time rate, then you only get that amount; you don't automatically get the mealtime rate as you do when chapters 6,7, and 8 apply.
“Extremes to the right and to the left of any political dispute are always wrong.”
― Dwight D. Eisenhower


Death before dishonour! Nothing before coffee!

Offline Pusser

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 72,230
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 2,521
Re: Place of Duty means... What?
« Reply #27 on: March 23, 2017, 07:41:26 »

If we truly did send a member somewhere where the only option was to purchase a meal that was over the mealtime rate (I mean literally, 100% no other option), then I can't see the minister denying a request for reimbursement of the actual rate.


You would be very hard pressed to find a situation where that would happen.  Our meal allowances are very generous.  The only time I've ever even come close to reaching the daily rate is in Norway (where a single beer can cost $25 - although keep in mind that you can't clam for alcohol) and even then, I still had enough. 
Sure, apes read Nietzsche.  They just don't understand it.

Offline SupersonicMax

    is back home.

  • Mentor
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *
  • 70,360
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 2,562
Re: Place of Duty means... What?
« Reply #28 on: March 23, 2017, 09:02:58 »
$11 for lunch isn't much to be honest...

Offline SeaKingTacco

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 104,065
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 4,347
  • Door Gunnery- The Sport of Kings!
Re: Place of Duty means... What?
« Reply #29 on: March 23, 2017, 09:22:17 »
$11 for lunch isn't much to be honest...

I just did a claim last month. I am pretty sure lunch is around the 18$ mark.....

Offline Pusser

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 72,230
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 2,521
Re: Place of Duty means... What?
« Reply #30 on: March 23, 2017, 09:48:06 »
Current rates in Canada are:

Breakfast:     $17.00
Lunch:          $17.25
Supper:        $45.55
Sure, apes read Nietzsche.  They just don't understand it.

Offline dapaterson

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Legend
  • *
  • 363,505
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 14,568
Re: Place of Duty means... What?
« Reply #31 on: March 23, 2017, 10:17:25 »
The lunch rate can be challenging when you're stuck in an airport, eating poor quality, overpriced food, while experiencing a four hour layover because HRG refuses to admit that there are better connections at the same price that you can see on the Air Canada website but not through HRG, so you sit fuming in the terminal, eating your overpriced meal.



Or so I've heard.
This posting made in accordance with the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, section 2(b):
Everyone has the following fundamental freedoms: freedom of thought, belief, opinion and expression, including freedom of the press and other media of communication
http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/charter/1.html

Offline Lumber

  • Donor
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *
  • 40,034
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 1,558
Re: Place of Duty means... What?
« Reply #32 on: March 23, 2017, 10:30:56 »
You would be very hard pressed to find a situation where that would happen.  Our meal allowances are very generous.  The only time I've ever even come close to reaching the daily rate is in Norway (where a single beer can cost $25 - although keep in mind that you can't clam for alcohol) and even then, I still had enough.

Yea, I can't see it ever really happening for Supper, but for lunch I could see a member being forced to spend more than the $17.25.

The lunch rate can be challenging when you're stuck in an airport, eating poor quality, overpriced food, while experiencing a four hour layover because HRG refuses to admit that there are better connections at the same price that you can see on the Air Canada website but not through HRG, so you sit fuming in the terminal, eating your overpriced meal.



Or so I've heard.

We have that problem all the time. Google Flights is an amazing tool for looking up and comparing flight costs. Sometimes, however, when my guys are on the HRG website, it won't even display one of the two airlines (AC or WestJet), even though Google Flights shows tons of options for both flights. This seems to be remedied by actually calling HRG and booking the flights over the phone. For whatever reason, they have better access to flights than we see in the system. Problem is, first you have to spend 30 mins on hold waiting for the agent, and then another 10-15 mins booking the flight.

When you have a dozen people going away each weekend every weekend, that's not usually an effective way to manage time...
“Extremes to the right and to the left of any political dispute are always wrong.”
― Dwight D. Eisenhower


Death before dishonour! Nothing before coffee!

Offline dapaterson

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Legend
  • *
  • 363,505
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 14,568
Re: Place of Duty means... What?
« Reply #33 on: March 23, 2017, 11:56:49 »
What's worse is when, even if you call, you're told the flight can't be accessed.  I know of one person who had to drive from Kingston to Pearson to catch their flight, despite Air Canada operating regular Kingston - Toronto flights, all of which appeared on the Air Canada website.

(The overall quality of Air Canada vs other airlines is best left for another discussion, preferably in a mess with appropriate libations in hand.)
This posting made in accordance with the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, section 2(b):
Everyone has the following fundamental freedoms: freedom of thought, belief, opinion and expression, including freedom of the press and other media of communication
http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/charter/1.html

Offline CountDC

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 23,905
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 1,383
Re: Place of Duty means... What?
« Reply #34 on: March 23, 2017, 13:07:34 »
I have a better understanding of TD Travel than my HR-Mgr. My OR comes to me for clarification on aspects of the CFTDTIs..

Which is the way it should be considering claims is now a Fin function not an HR one. Actually your OR shouldn't even come to you, they should just send everyone to you. ;D  Of course that isn't how it really happens otherwise why am I approving all these claims that my staff are processing instead of the Fin NCO.

As for HRG - don't forget calling them costs more so that has to be factored in when comparing the rates.

Never had an issue with the meal rates myself even at the airport.  Guess it depends on the location and what you like to eat.  Usually when I have heard complaints it was because they were eating at  restaurants they normally wouldn't if paying out of own pocket and wanting the steak dinner with drinks.  Not saying I didn't do the same but I never cried about the rates either.
"When the power of love, overcomes the love of power....the world will know peace" - Jimi Hendrix [1942-1970]

Offline George Wallace

  • Army.ca Fossil
  • *****
  • 424,545
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 31,331
  • Crewman
Re: Place of Duty means... What?
« Reply #35 on: March 23, 2017, 13:08:21 »

(The overall quality of Air Canada vs other airlines is best left for another discussion, preferably in a mess with appropriate libations in hand.)

Indeed.  And copious quantities of libations at that.
DISCLAIMER: The opinions and arguments of George Wallace posted on this Site are solely those of George Wallace and not the opinion of Army.ca and are posted for information purposes only.
Unless so stated, they are reflective of my opinion -- and my opinion only, a right that I enjoy along with every other Canadian citizen.