Author Topic: 3d printed guns? Yikes!  (Read 1862 times)

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Offline EricBoss

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3d printed guns? Yikes!
« on: April 02, 2017, 16:16:09 »
Okay this seemed fun and innovative but then reality sunk in . . .

https://www.forbes.com/sites/frankminiter/2015/05/12/are-blueprints-for-3d-printed-guns-protected-speech/

Apparently, all you need now to create a weapon that fires is one of these 3d print machines.

You upload the design of the gun, press a button and out it pops.

They even have these blueprint files all over the place like this gun mount:

https://pinshape.com/items/33299-3d-printed-gun-mount

I'm a techy myself so from that standpoint, this is pretty sweet but how would we monitor this?

I mean now anyone create a fully functional weapon.

Should we place a law or two in place (If you need to print a gun, you need a licence of some kind?).

Offline recceguy

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Re: 3d printed guns? Yikes!
« Reply #1 on: April 02, 2017, 16:38:01 »
As a techy, you should have realized they've been doing this for, at least, a few years already. e discussed it here when it was news. All it's really done is simplify things. All a person has ever needed, to bypass the law, is a rudimentary grasp of how to use hand tools. Firearms design and manufacture didn't become standardized and efficient until the US Civil War. Before that firearms were made individually and hand fitted. The 3D printer has just made individual firearms manufacture easier, not new. If the government ever managed to confiscate every firearm in the country, there would be thousands of individual firearms back in private hands in a matter of weeks. Just depends on the amount of effort, and money, a person is willing to spend.

After the way governments have burned gun owners in the past, you're not likely to find too many gun aficionados that will be willing to get licensed or registered. That will also apply to firearms they manufacture.

We don't need any new firearms laws and could easily get rid of most we have now.
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Offline Eaglelord17

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Re: 3d printed guns? Yikes!
« Reply #2 on: April 02, 2017, 17:47:50 »
The reality is it is actually pretty easy to manufacture firearms, I personally am looking into doing it as a small hobby (including all the legal steps required of course, part of looking into it is understanding how the laws work in regards to it in Canada). There are many designs that are out there which with some simple tools, and some basic knowledge using common parts from your local hardware store can actually create quite effective firearms (a simple example being the Sten gun which was designed to be made from common items on basic machinery).

Now that 3D printing is a option all it means is those individuals who didn't have the knowledge on how to do it with basic tools can try to do it with the printers. That being said they are usually pretty junky as plastic doesn't hold up well as a pressure bearing part in a firearm, most designs I have heard of have only lasted a couple rounds before they are toast (as well as being slow to load, and inaccurate).

If it does make you feel better the arguably most important thing for a firearm to function cannot be 3D printed. You cannot make ammo with a 3D printer, and realistically that is easier to control than the firearm itself. Without ammo a firearm is simply a piece of metal or plastic.

Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: 3d printed guns? Yikes!
« Reply #3 on: April 02, 2017, 17:52:50 »
Okay this seemed fun and innovative but then reality sunk in . . .

https://www.forbes.com/sites/frankminiter/2015/05/12/are-blueprints-for-3d-printed-guns-protected-speech/

Apparently, all you need now to create a weapon that fires is one of these 3d print machines.

You upload the design of the gun, press a button and out it pops.


A single shot pistol and wall hook have you worried?

You realize these aren't that much of a threat right?

We are a little ways off from hitting a button going for some Starbucks and coming back to an Ar15 assault rifle sitting there waiting to murder.

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Offline Loachman

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Re: 3d printed guns? Yikes!
« Reply #4 on: April 02, 2017, 20:56:57 »
AN AR15 is NOT an assault rifle. It is a semi-automatic rifle.

Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: 3d printed guns? Yikes!
« Reply #5 on: April 02, 2017, 21:25:35 »
I thought some Ar15s down in the states are capable of select fire?
https://youtu.be/LeY5lApcJok
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Offline kkwd

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Re: 3d printed guns? Yikes!
« Reply #6 on: April 02, 2017, 22:02:34 »
I thought some Ar15s down in the states are capable of select fire?
https://youtu.be/LeY5lApcJok

That has a bump fire stock attached.
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Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: 3d printed guns? Yikes!
« Reply #7 on: April 02, 2017, 22:48:14 »
Groovy.
What about this one?
https://youtu.be/MhtTHAv0HSc

If I'm wrong I'm wrong  no big deal I just thought some Ar15s were able to be select fire down south.

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Offline FJAG

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Re: 3d printed guns? Yikes!
« Reply #8 on: April 02, 2017, 22:48:23 »
I thought some Ar15s down in the states are capable of select fire?
https://youtu.be/LeY5lApcJok

Yes and no. I am neither a gun aficionado nor an expert on firearms but for one of my books I had a plot arc that included the making AR-15s full auto illegally so I researched the issue fairly deeply.

The AR 15 is a semi automatic rifle-period. Essentially it differs from the M-16 (and M-4) through various internal parts that allow the selection of semi or full auto fire (the sear, the bolt carrier, trigger, hammer, disconnector and selector). Until 1981 there was a thriving business in creating drop in parts to make AR 15s selective to full auto.

Originally in 1934 the US passed the National Firearms Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Firearms_Act which regulated the ownership of "machine guns" and other weapons used by the mobs of the day (primarily through registration and punitive taxation). The NFA was gutted in a 1968 court case and as a result Congress passed the Gun Control Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_Control_Act_of_1968which amongst many other things prohibited the import of and sale to civilians of guns "with no sporting purpose" (which included machine guns).

As you can imagine there was a flurry of court cases and ways that manufacturers and owners went about to circumvent the laws especially with drop in parts for the AR-15 until in 1981 when ATF Bulletin 81-4 declared that they considered these drop in items to themselves be considered as a "machine gun" in that they were intended to convert a modified weapon to be one that fires more than one shot with one pull of the trigger.

More court cases and laws followed but in essence, 1981 is the watershed year. Machine guns and drop in kits manufactured before 1981 are legal to own and register and there are hundreds of thousands of converted AR-15s and drop in kits that are in circulation for very high prices. Any drop in kits manufactured after 1981 are illegal.

The video that you show is of a Bump Fire conversion kit (now owned by Slide Fire) which (as I understand it) uses the recoil of the weapon in the stock to reactivate the system to fire again as long as the trigger is pulled. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bump_fire. Apparently ATF considers the current version of that system legal.

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« Last Edit: April 02, 2017, 22:51:46 by FJAG »
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Offline recceguy

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Re: 3d printed guns? Yikes!
« Reply #9 on: April 02, 2017, 23:29:11 »
The reality is it is actually pretty easy to manufacture firearms, I personally am looking into doing it as a small hobby (including all the legal steps required of course, part of looking into it is understanding how the laws work in regards to it in Canada). There are many designs that are out there which with some simple tools, and some basic knowledge using common parts from your local hardware store can actually create quite effective firearms (a simple example being the Sten gun which was designed to be made from common items on basic machinery).

Now that 3D printing is a option all it means is those individuals who didn't have the knowledge on how to do it with basic tools can try to do it with the printers. That being said they are usually pretty junky as plastic doesn't hold up well as a pressure bearing part in a firearm, most designs I have heard of have only lasted a couple rounds before they are toast (as well as being slow to load, and inaccurate).

If it does make you feel better the arguably most important thing for a firearm to function cannot be 3D printed. You cannot make ammo with a 3D printer, and realistically that is easier to control than the firearm itself. Without ammo a firearm is simply a piece of metal or plastic.
Ammo is the easiest thing to make. That would be absolutely uncontrollable. You don't need a 3D printer. You need a kitchen.
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Offline recceguy

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Re: 3d printed guns? Yikes!
« Reply #10 on: April 02, 2017, 23:49:10 »
Bump firing is possible with a semi auto and no mechanical aids. Automatic firearms can be made with basic hand tools. Charcoal, sulphur and saltpeter and a little knowledge gives you gunpowder. Sprinkler heads from the local golf course give you brass. An acceptable, easily smelted, poured and worked with ease and has been used for centuries for firearms.

Bottom line is that firearms are here to stay, depending of course, what side of the law you want to live on.

Necessity is the mother of invention and I don't mean Frank Zappa. :)
« Last Edit: April 03, 2017, 00:12:32 by recceguy »
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Offline EricBoss

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Re: 3d printed guns? Yikes!
« Reply #11 on: April 03, 2017, 03:09:50 »


A single shot pistol and wall hook have you worried?

You realize these aren't that much of a threat right?

We are a little ways off from hitting a button going for some Starbucks and coming back to an Ar15 assault rifle sitting there waiting to murder.

Thanks for your reply Jarnhamar. 100% agreed but it all starts with a single shot. Like I said, I like the technology overall (Tons of benefits) but I just feel that the same rules / restrictions should apply to 3d printed guns that we usually apply to current firearms. It wouldn't hurt to get a head start for once on something (Especially by our liberal politicians) before this thing literally blows up in our faces (No pun intended).

Offline Loachman

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Re: 3d printed guns? Yikes!
« Reply #12 on: April 03, 2017, 06:46:58 »
Most of the "the same rules / restrictions" with which we a currently burdened should not exist anyway.

Offline NavyShooter

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Re: 3d printed guns? Yikes!
« Reply #13 on: April 03, 2017, 07:28:52 »
I'll jump in on a couple of points here.

Watershed year in the US was 1986, that's when the closed the books on manufacture of new machine guns in the US for civilian ownership.  There are 'post-86 dealer samples' that can be owned by a dealer, or brought in by a dealer with proper paperwork indicating that they are for a demonstration for a police/military display with them looking to sell. 

Every other machine gun in the USA right now was registered prior to 1986.  It's a fixed market, there are no more new ones, so the prices on the existing will only go up.

Stepping over to the AR-15.  Yes, there ARE in fact fully automatic AR-15's.  I've held one.  It was at the Warminster Infantry Training Center in the UK.  It was, quite clearly, an AR-15, but it was also Full auto.  It was manufactured that way, and was legal to do so in the early 1960's when it was made.

The current generation of AR-15's have a number of internal manufacturing differences from the M-16/C-7 FOW (Family of Weapons).

The basic differences REQUIRED between a full-auto and a semi-auto AR-15 are:
  • -Auto Sear Lever not installed
  • -Auto Sear Axis Pin hole not drilled
  • -Semi-Auto Selector lever installed

There are a number of other internal differences that have been made over the years.  These changes include:

-Inserting a tool steel block where the auto sear would fit
-Machined hook on hammer
-Ramp slot cut on bottom of bolt
-Larger diameter firing pin ring to engage with hook on hammer through slot on bolt
-Removal of auto sear relief cut on upper receiver
-Semi-Auto Trigger and disconnector not machined to function with Full Auto Selector

I have had the occasion over the years to be inside the guts of a *LOT* of AR-15's, C-7's, M-16's, etc, etc, and am very familiar with the internal workings of them.  I have assembled AR-15's, I've built barrels, conversion kits, etc.

There exists a thing called a "RDIAS"  a 'Registered Drop In Auto Sear' that will serve to convert a semi-automatic AR-15 into a Full Auto, with no receiver modifications.  These require specific parts, and a specific lower receiver internal profile from an early 1980's Colt AR-15.  The tool-steel inserts that Colt started putting into their lowers in the 80's/90's precluded the insertion of these devices.  Note as well the "REGISTERED" part.  The RDIAS must have been registered with the BATF in 1986 or prior to be legal for use.  Don't have an unregistered one in your possession in the US with an AR-15 in your possession otherwise they'll arrest you for 'constructive intent.'

Now, moving ahead with home built firearms.  I have in my collection the 3rd, legally registered in Canada Semi-Automatic Sten Sub-machine gun.

Yup.  I own a Sten.  I could never get it to fire more than 3 rounds in a row though. 

I built it myself.  Took me about 100 hours of machine time using a Sherline Micro-mill and various hand-tools including getting some help with the welding.  It's been inspected 3 times by the CFO for NS, and there are several differences between it and a real Sten that would prevent it from ever functioning in Full Auto. 

If I had to build another, it'd be much better, and much quicker on the 2nd time around.  I now have a much larger milling machine that would enable much faster work on some of the bits that took me a long time with the mini-mill. 

It IS legal to build yourself a firearm in Canada.  I've done it.  The rules are fairly easy....once you intend to build a firearm, if it is restricted, it must be registered.  Once you complete the frame/receiver, it's registered as a 'frame or receiver only.'  Once you receive the registration certificate, you may then go ahead and complete the assembly of the firearm, and you then have 30 days (from the time it's complete) to contact the RCMP/CFC and have them change the status from Frame/Receiver to a completed firearm with barrel length, etc added to the new certificate.  Once you've received the new certificate, then you can take the firearm to a shooting range to test it.

Oh, and the whole 3D printing thing?  I've been watching it for several years where it comes to guns, and the US Military has recently developed the ability to 3D print a 40mm grenade launcher, AND PROJECTILES.  So, yeah, there's that too.

I'll do a supplementary response to this to show some of the differences between an AR-15 and C-7/M-16 in pictures.

Hope that helps clarify things a bit.

NS


Insert disclaimer statement here....

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Offline NavyShooter

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Re: 3d printed guns? Yikes!
« Reply #14 on: April 03, 2017, 07:30:52 »
http://www.guns.com/2017/03/08/the-army-has-3d-printed-a-working-40mm-grenade-launcher-they-call-rambo-photos/



3D printed 40mm grenade launcher.

"RAMBO (Rapid Additively Manufactured Ballistics Ordnance) was made on a 3D printer after a six-month effort — and has even fired 3D printed grenades to prove it works.

Produced in a joint collaboration between the U.S. Army Research, Development and Engineering Command, the U.S. Army Manufacturing Technology Program and America Makes, the group used additive manufacturing techniques to craft a direct copy of the M203A1 40mm grenade launcher commonly mounted under the M16/M4 series rifles.

Every part of the weapon, save for the springs and some fasteners, was sintered in aluminum or printed in 4340 alloy steel in 35 hours of production."
Insert disclaimer statement here....

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Re: 3d printed guns? Yikes!
« Reply #15 on: April 03, 2017, 07:46:52 »
AR-15 vs M-16 differences:

Trigger mech bits:



Bolt Carrier differences (the 'missing' metal in the AR-15 bolts prevents tripping an auto-sear):



Upper receiver difference, no cutout for the protrusion of the Auto-sear above the lower:



Selector lever difference:



Here is a top-down view into a lower receiver set, AR-15 on the left, M-16 on the right.  You can see the amount of metal still present on the AR-15 receiver...and that if you tried to drill out the hole for the auto-sear, it would go through....and hit the rounded section on the opposite side resulting in the drill bit deflecting and an off-centre hole being drilled on the opposite side.  Ruining the receiver geometry and ceasing function.



And here is the 'Colt Sear Block' of a dissimilar metal that they were installing:




There are a LOT of internal differences between an AR-15 and an M-16/C-7.

Insert disclaimer statement here....

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Offline Eaglelord17

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Re: 3d printed guns? Yikes!
« Reply #16 on: April 03, 2017, 11:17:11 »
Ammo is the easiest thing to make. That would be absolutely uncontrollable. You don't need a 3D printer. You need a kitchen.

Depends, again we are talking about 3D printing. This goes back to having to have basic knowledge to make ammo not just being able to plug in a machine and have it make it for you. And just because you can make some very basic ammo doesn't mean it is good ammo (generally if you are a criminal you don't want to be running around with a black powder firearm). Most stoppages in firearms, as well as accuracy issues and such all tend to be ammo related (or magazine related).

Now, moving ahead with home built firearms.  I have in my collection the 3rd, legally registered in Canada Semi-Automatic Sten Sub-machine gun.

Yup.  I own a Sten.  I could never get it to fire more than 3 rounds in a row though. 

I built it myself.  Took me about 100 hours of machine time using a Sherline Micro-mill and various hand-tools including getting some help with the welding.  It's been inspected 3 times by the CFO for NS, and there are several differences between it and a real Sten that would prevent it from ever functioning in Full Auto. 

If I had to build another, it'd be much better, and much quicker on the 2nd time around.  I now have a much larger milling machine that would enable much faster work on some of the bits that took me a long time with the mini-mill. 

It IS legal to build yourself a firearm in Canada.  I've done it.  The rules are fairly easy....once you intend to build a firearm, if it is restricted, it must be registered.  Once you complete the frame/receiver, it's registered as a 'frame or receiver only.'  Once you receive the registration certificate, you may then go ahead and complete the assembly of the firearm, and you then have 30 days (from the time it's complete) to contact the RCMP/CFC and have them change the status from Frame/Receiver to a completed firearm with barrel length, etc added to the new certificate.  Once you've received the new certificate, then you can take the firearm to a shooting range to test it.

Very cool, definitely a accomplishment. At some point I think I might try for a Sten, but at the moment I have been working on a design for a 7.62x25 revolver. Basically a revolver action like a Swiss 1882 or 1929 Revolver, just in 7.62x25 (using the bottle neck for headspacing instead of a rim like a standard revolver, this works as it uses the ejector rod and loading gate, and doesn't require moon clips due to that).

Offline recceguy

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Re: 3d printed guns? Yikes!
« Reply #17 on: April 03, 2017, 12:43:16 »
Depends, again we are talking about 3D printing. This goes back to having to have basic knowledge to make ammo not just being able to plug in a machine and have it make it for you. And just because you can make some very basic ammo doesn't mean it is good ammo (generally if you are a criminal you don't want to be running around with a black powder firearm). Most stoppages in firearms, as well as accuracy issues and such all tend to be ammo related (or magazine related).

My whole point being is you don't need specialized equipment or to be a rocket scientist to make ammo. Black powder is simply one example of a propellant that can be easily produced. Black powder can be very accurate. Things like the .303 British, .45-70 and many pistol cartridges started out life as black powder. It is accurate, good ammo.

The difference in stance between us is not capability, but style and substance. Do you want a good, solid firearm that works and is accurate for it's purpose that can be built and used with black powder in a few days including ammo, or wait the better part of a year designing, machining and tuning a semi auto and doing the same with the ammo. If something needs killing, it's normally pretty immediate.

Now, if you're a hobbyist that just wants to kill time and build fancy for shits and giggles go ahead and take all the time you want.
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Offline NavyShooter

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Re: 3d printed guns? Yikes!
« Reply #18 on: April 03, 2017, 19:06:58 »
I've made my own black powder, with materials bought in a shoppers drug mart.   It wasn't very potent, but it was functional.  It went boooo----puff....instead of just Boom.  Not terribly resounding, but it was functional.

Making nitrocellulose gunpowder (smokeless powder) of the modern sort is generally well beyond the hobbyist level.

That said, I teach a course for my local gun club on ammunition handloading.  I bring in about $5K worth of my own reloading gear and show what you need, don't need, what I've wasted my money on, and what accessories you really SHOULD waste your money on.  The basic equipment required will cost you less than $400 to start loading ammo, and if you're really cheap, you can get one of the 'hand presses' that lets you assemble ammo without a bench mounted press, usually they show up ag gunshows for $40-50.


Now, all that said, some legality points.  Up above, I made some points about machine guns, and US laws (the 1986 part) without clearly ID'ing that as US policy.

1.  Ammunition.  You need to have a Possession and Acquisition License (PAL) in order to legally buy ammunition in Canada. 

2.  Home built Guns.  You better have a PAL as well.

3.  Home built RESTRICTED firearms.  You better have a R-PAL (Restricted PAL)

Make sense?  There are laws that exist that govern it...and licensing requirements to follow.

So, let's jump back to full autos in Canada for a moment.  Yes, there are 2 legal ways to own a Full Auto firearm in Canada.  I know people that fall into both classes.

Option 1.  Movie/Dealer license.  You must have a valid dealer or movie gun supplier license.  The guns are registered to your business, not to you.

Option 2.  Prohib class 12(2) owner.  If you don't know what this is, then you are not likely to have this endorsement on the back of your PAL.  I do not have it on mine.  To be in this class, you must have continually owned at least one Full Auto firearm, registered to your name since 1978. 

There's a lot more I could say about it....but, here's one last comparison photo for you, showing the AR-15 vs M-15 firing pins, with the larger collar on the AR-15 firing pin:



The one on the right is an AR-15 specific firing pin.

NS
Insert disclaimer statement here....

:panzer: