Author Topic: Class-A POMV TD Travel  (Read 1163 times)

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Offline DuddlyDeringer

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Class-A POMV TD Travel
« on: April 12, 2017, 11:52:39 »
Hello All,

I'm not really great with references, so a friend recommend I ask ppl here for some clarification.

I'm Class-A and goin gon course and it would take 2 days to drive my car to the school (800km away). Since I've only been given 1 day of travel on my contract, they're saying I can't drive there. They're saying that I have to use one day of leave to drive my car (so that I have 2 travel days total: 1 allotted and 1 annual leave), but because I haven't "earned" my leave yet, I can't take leave before my course starts.

What I don't get is that, I'm Class-A, why do I even need leave? Can't I just start my drive, and be "half-way" to my destination when my contract starts, so I only use "1 day of travel"?

I mean, I remember after Christmas one year, I was going on an exercise right after the Christmas holiday, but because I was visiting friends during the Christmas holiday, I wasn't "at home" on my allotted travel day. Where I was was actually closer to where I was going, so my OR just booked me a flight from where I was to the exercise, and then back home after the exercise (Point C to B then Point B to A, instead of Point A to B then Point B to A).

If I was RegF or Class-B, I could understand, because you can't get extra time off work just because you want to drive your car. But I'm Class-A, I can be wherever I want when I'm not on contract.

What idea a friend of mine gave me was to "go on a trip" somewhere closer to the school, and do like I did at Christmas, and tell my OR that "because of civilian commitments, I will be in location C before my contract starts. Since it's within 500km of the school, can I drive my POMV", and they should say yes? Is this legit? I mean, in theory I could actually need to be somewhere else, like at Christmas.

Thanks

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Re: Class-A POMV TD Travel
« Reply #1 on: April 12, 2017, 13:53:58 »
You should be able to apply for relocation leave prior to and following your course. This is at the discretion of your CO, so don't count on it. Your chain of command should be helping you with this. Your course must be 30 or more days in duration to qualify.

Read para 5.10 of the Leave Policy Manual
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Re: Class-A POMV TD Travel
« Reply #2 on: April 12, 2017, 14:00:30 »
Hello All,

I'm not really great with references, so a friend recommend I ask ppl here for some clarification.

I'm Class-A and goin gon course and it would take 2 days to drive my car to the school (800km away). Since I've only been given 1 day of travel on my contract, they're saying I can't drive there. They're saying that I have to use one day of leave to drive my car (so that I have 2 travel days total: 1 allotted and 1 annual leave), but because I haven't "earned" my leave yet, I can't take leave before my course starts.

What I don't get is that, I'm Class-A, why do I even need leave? Can't I just start my drive, and be "half-way" to my destination when my contract starts, so I only use "1 day of travel"?

I mean, I remember after Christmas one year, I was going on an exercise right after the Christmas holiday, but because I was visiting friends during the Christmas holiday, I wasn't "at home" on my allotted travel day. Where I was was actually closer to where I was going, so my OR just booked me a flight from where I was to the exercise, and then back home after the exercise (Point C to B then Point B to A, instead of Point A to B then Point B to A).

If I was RegF or Class-B, I could understand, because you can't get extra time off work just because you want to drive your car. But I'm Class-A, I can be wherever I want when I'm not on contract.

What idea a friend of mine gave me was to "go on a trip" somewhere closer to the school, and do like I did at Christmas, and tell my OR that "because of civilian commitments, I will be in location C before my contract starts. Since it's within 500km of the school, can I drive my POMV", and they should say yes? Is this legit? I mean, in theory I could actually need to be somewhere else, like at Christmas.

Thanks

As a CLASS A solider going on course your travel day is the day prior to course...if you want to drive you "could" provided you waive the liability from the crown by travelling the day prior on your on dime, for the end of course your unit can do a cost comparison for a one way PMV wavier as you will have annual leave to use.
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Offline kev994

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Re: Class-A POMV TD Travel
« Reply #3 on: April 12, 2017, 19:07:11 »
Is it more than or less than 800 km? IIRC you can drive 500 km a day but 800 the last day, so if it's less than 800 you should be able to do it in one day.

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Re: Class-A POMV TD Travel
« Reply #4 on: April 12, 2017, 19:58:07 »
Annex A, POMV Travel Waiver: http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/caf-community-benefits/temp-duty-travel-instructions.page

Been done many, many times before. You're just eligible for cost comparison for most economical means to get you there (usually a plane ticket) and they should be doing a cost comparison sheet to show you all the costs involved.

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Re: Class-A POMV TD Travel
« Reply #5 on: April 12, 2017, 20:08:35 »
It's been a while since I had to worry about this, but I didn't think CFTDI distinguished between Reserves and Regs?  And my memory isn't what it used to be, but did I not see something saying that if you were travelling on CF business, you were on duty, and if you were on leave, you were on leave - and never the twain shall meet?  They didn't want people on travel status and on leave at the same time, as those two statuses were deemed mutually exclusive.  I also think if you're authorized to use POMV, then by extension you also have to be granted the appropriate amount of on-duty travel time to do it, along with all the TD benefits in force along the way.

I'm suffering from CRAFT a lot lately, so if my information is dated, you have my apologies in advance. 

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Re: Class-A POMV TD Travel
« Reply #6 on: April 12, 2017, 20:15:33 »
You should read this directive for all your travel, as a CAF member. 

Canadian Forces Temporary Duty Travel Instructions

Chapter 7 - Travel in Canada and Continental USA and Overnight Stay

Section3 - Transportation Benefits



Section 1 - Application
5.01  Application

Subject to Chapter 3 (Application of CFTDTI), this Chapter applies to a member who is:


    A) On TD at a temporary workplace that is inside the member’s place of duty; or
    B) ordered by an approving authority to work - or to be immediately available for work - during irregular hours inside the member’s place of duty.



Section 3 - Transportation benefits
5.20  General

    (No Entitlement) There is no entitlement for a member to be reimbursed any expenses for travel:
        to and from their permanent workplace on a daily basis; and
        in respect of a mess dinner, mixed dining-in, or other similar event.
    (Selection) An approving authority selects a member’s mode - or combination of modes - of transportation on duty travel after consideration of all of the following:
        the relative cost and efficiency of available modes of transportation during the duty travel;
        the conditions of road transportation and all other modes of transportation - in the duty travel area;
        forecasted weather conditions during the duty travel;
        the preferred transportation for short, local trips is by bus, taxi, shuttle, and other local transportation services;
        the CF’s operational needs;
        an intermediate sedan is the standard rental vehicle across government;
        the member’s safety and convenience;
        the member’s safety and convenience;
        any other factor that is immediately relevant to the duty travel requirement.
    (Home Outside Place of Duty) In this Section, for the purposes of calculating a direct road distance from a member’s home, a home that is located outside the member’s place of duty is deemed to be located at the nearest point to the member’s home on the geographical boundary of that place of duty.


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Re: Class-A POMV TD Travel
« Reply #7 on: April 12, 2017, 20:16:24 »
Here's the latest update to TD policy that I got the other day.  Have a good read, there are some innovative cost saving measures in there!

NS


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Re: Class-A POMV TD Travel
« Reply #8 on: April 12, 2017, 20:44:03 »
He's travelling 800 km, so it's safe to say he's travelling outside his normal place of duty, so Chapter 7 applies. 

It looks like 7.40 and 7.41 are in play - and I do see some rules that kick in for Class A reservists.

However, this is how I'd play it.  If you're not going to use POMV, how are they going to get you there?  If it turns out that using your own car is the most economical and practical method, then they ought to be offering to request you to use your POMV at high rate, and along with it provide you with adequate duty travel time to do it.  If there's a more economical and practical method of travel, then you're stuck with the limitations in 7.41.

I think.   ;D

Offline Lumber

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Re: Class-A POMV TD Travel
« Reply #9 on: April 13, 2017, 09:20:07 »
Annex A, POMV Travel Waiver: http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/caf-community-benefits/temp-duty-travel-instructions.page

Been done many, many times before. You're just eligible for cost comparison for most economical means to get you there (usually a plane ticket) and they should be doing a cost comparison sheet to show you all the costs involved.

Note quite. Class-A reservists get kind of screwed in this regard. Chapter 7 of the CFTDTIs states:

Quote
7.40 — PMV — DRIVER - (2) (Member Requests To Use PMV) Subject to paragraph 7.20(2) (Selection), a member — including a member of the Reserve Force on Class “A” Reserve Service — who requests to use a PMV rather than a more economical and practical mode of transportation selected by the approving authority and who uses that PMV on duty travel is entitled to be reimbursed — for only the first day of travel to the destination...

and

Quote
7.41 — PMV — DRIVER — ADMINISTRATION - (5) (Paid Leave) A member who requests to use a PMV — rather than the more economical and practical mode of transportation selected by the approving authority — and who uses that PMV on duty travel shall take one day’s paid leave, after the first day, for every 500 kilometres travelled.

Finally,

Quote
(6) (Paid Leave) If a member — who requests to use a PMV — has insufficient paid leave remaining for any travel in excess of the more economical and practical mode of transportation selected by the approving authority , then the member shall not be authorized to use their PMV as requested.


So, they will only reimburse the first day of travel. If he lives 800km away, he needs 2 days of travel time, and the first day of travel will be his allotted travel day. This forces the member to require leave (of some sort) for the second day of travel (or third, as the situation dictates), since the second day of travel is now inside his contract dates.

If the reference had said "the member is entitled to only 1 day of duty travel", that would be fine. The member can sign waiver, get noreimbursement for the first day of travel, and get paid for the second day of travel. But this is not the case.

What we've seen in the Naval Reserve is that, those going on tasking can get permission to take their annual leave prior to departure, and therefore can take POMV, but it's up to the employing unit whether they are willing to grant them annual leave prior to the beginning of the tasking. On the other hand, those going on courses never get it, because the schools <coughBordencough> are super stingy.
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Offline quadrapiper

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Re: Class-A POMV TD Travel
« Reply #10 on: April 13, 2017, 15:27:20 »

Note quite. Class-A reservists get kind of screwed in this regard.
Any idea if that collection of regs has any intent, in relation to Class A pers, or if it's just an oversight, written solely with full or "full" time pers in mind?

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Re: Class-A POMV TD Travel
« Reply #11 on: April 13, 2017, 15:41:29 »
He could ask his CO for a short day.  This is paid leave!

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Re: Class-A POMV TD Travel
« Reply #12 on: April 13, 2017, 16:03:08 »
He could ask his CO for a short day.  This is paid leave!

Class A reservists can't get short leave.

Class B reservists can, but there's a bit of a catch-22, in that the member isn't on Class B service until the start of the tasking/course, but needs to travel prior to the start of the tasking/course.

I remember a few years ago when there was a crackdown on rental cars -- it appears that this has now spread to a crackdown on POMV. Which may not be sustainable. I like a good walk as much as the next guy, but some of our bases aren't exactly laid out for pedestrian access.

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Re: Class-A POMV TD Travel
« Reply #13 on: April 19, 2017, 14:05:28 »
ooh the wonderful PMV again.  maybe this will help, from DCBA in 2013.  Some points to note that is not there but I have learned through attending briefing sessions in Ottawa that included DCBA, VAC and TB along with follow on briefings at Bdes and Divs.

Even though a class a mbr can be approved PMV for TD 650 kms or less away it does not mean they travel it in one day without risk.  The concept is they would travel up to the 500kms, stop for the night and then complete the trip the next day as you can travel 150kms and still perform a full days work.  If the mbr decides to exceed the 500kms they take on a risk if an accident does happen in which they are injured may not be covered by VAC as they do not consider them on duty at that point.

Spec Lve (Reloc) can not be used for travel, it is for prior to travel.

Big note:  Travelling via PMV without authority - "not be entitled to any duty travel benefits under the CFTDTIs" means exactly that - you get nothing.  No mileage, meals or accms enroute, incidentals and no entitlement to R&Q while there unless local mbrs are ordered into quarters because you have just made yourself a local mbr.

For the concept of "tell them you will be somewhere else closer". Had that scenario and wish I could find the email but the basic answer we received when it was sent up was to book the mbr CA as authorizing the PMV from another location was viewed as an attempt to circumvent the regulations and grant the mbr an unofficial travel day.  How about the return - pure coincidence that mbr happened to have business to stop over for on the return leg too?

Action dist:
Refs:  A.  CFTDTI
B.  CF Leave Policy Manual
C.  DCBA 3-3 email, dated 12 Jun 13

Further to ref C (email below); DCBA and DPPD staff have carefully reviewed refs A and B, and earlier legal advise (notal) to DCBA.  First and foremost, the Reserve "period of service" (POS) message/tasking must include the member’s employment period (Temporary Duty (TD) period), leave (entitlement is for 30 continuous days (POS) or more) and duty travel day(s).  Essentially, when looking at pertinent policy and associated benefits, there are two scenarios; as follows: 

Scenario 1:  Distance to new employment location is 650 km or less.  IAW Ref A, the approving authority should select a mode of transportation (MOT) to the employment opportunity location which would normally take one duty travel day. Pursuant to art 7.40(2) of ref A, the member can request to use PMV and be reimbursed for travel expenses. 

Scenario 2:  Distance to new employment location is greater than 650 km.  If the course starts on a Monday, the approving authority cannot "approve" a request by the member to select PMV as the preferred method of travel.  Reference A does not permit an approving authority to create additional benefits, and IAW reference B, members are not permitted to utilize annual leave on a weekend. (unless shiftworkers - and there would be no application in this instance).  With this scenario, because the official duty travel day would be moved to Saturday and the additional travel day required would be Sunday, this would create an extra paid day for these members which is not allowed under the construct of the Treasury Board approved CFTDTI.  Hence, if the member opts to take their PMV in this instance, they would not be entitled to any duty travel benefits under the CFTDTIs.
 
It should be noted, however, that if the Training Establishment builds into the mbr's POS annual leave entitlements prior to the start of the course, the member may be entitled to request to use their PMV; provided the course start date allows for additional travel days during the work week.  In this instance, the mbr would be entitled to use annual leave entitlements earned during the POS.  E.g.  2 day trip, 1150 km or less, and course starting mid-week (Wed). The 'official" duty travel day would be the Mon, and the mbr would be on annual leave on the Tue.  The POS msg/instruction should reflect the member utilizing annual leave entitlements prior to the start of the employment opportunity/TD.  In these instances, CFTDTI benefits will be paid to the member for one day only, pursuant to art 7.40(2) of CFTDTI.
----
Special Leave (Relocation) for Reservists proceeding to the new employment location:  Reservists proceeding to the new employment location on att posting, course (TD) or on taskings, pursuant to Ref B, the approving authority may approve "Special Leave (Relocation)" which must be taken prior to the member's first duty travel day and/or after the last duty travel day (at location of the member's Reserve unit).  Additionally, these days "shall not be reckoned against weekend days or statutory holidays", as stipulated at ref B para 5.11.02.  If "Special Leave (Relocation)" is approved by the unit approving authority, then the member would start the Class “B" reserve service effective that date.  Units are cautioned that the option of using "Special Leave (Relocation)" has a direct cost associated with it; given the member of the Reserve Force’s POS would need to be extended for the extra day(s).  If this type of leave is granted, it is imperative that the pertinent POS msg/instruction be amended to account for the extra day(s).
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Offline Lumber

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Re: Class-A POMV TD Travel
« Reply #14 on: April 19, 2017, 15:21:50 »
ooh the wonderful PMV again.  maybe this will help, from DCBA in 2013.  Some points to note that is not there but I have learned through attending briefing sessions in Ottawa that included DCBA, VAC and TB along with follow on briefings at Bdes and Divs.

I've probably spent more time discussing, debating, and reading policy and references ad nauseam regarding Travel policy than anything else in the 2 years I've been Adj.

Even though a class a mbr can be approved PMV for TD 650 kms or less away it does not mean they travel it in one day without risk.  The concept is they would travel up to the 500kms, stop for the night and then complete the trip the next day as you can travel 150kms and still perform a full days work.  If the mbr decides to exceed the 500kms they take on a risk if an accident does happen in which they are injured may not be covered by VAC as they do not consider them on duty at that point.

Agreed. This is why the cost comparison work sheet only allows a maximum of 1000km (500km each way) for PMV, vice 1300 km.

Big note:  Travelling via PMV without authority - "not be entitled to any duty travel benefits under the CFTDTIs" means exactly that - you get nothing.  No mileage, meals or accms enroute, incidentals and no entitlement to R&Q while there unless local mbrs are ordered into quarters because you have just made yourself a local mbr.

But what about pay? What if a member's travel day is Monday the 1st of May, and they tell us "don't book me a flight, I'm driving, and I know I don't have enough time, I'm going to leave on Sunday and waive all my CFTDTI benefits". Pay isn't a CFTDTI benefit. Do they lose out on pay as well? Further, incidentals IS a CFTDTI benefit. They'll be getting to their new location, say Borden, and staying in shacks, so they should get incidentals. But they lost their travel benefits for that day? Does that include incidentals? The staying in shacks has nothing to do with their actual "travel".

For the concept of "tell them you will be somewhere else closer". Had that scenario and wish I could find the email but the basic answer we received when it was sent up was to book the mbr CA as authorizing the PMV from another location was viewed as an attempt to circumvent the regulations and grant the mbr an unofficial travel day.  How about the return - pure coincidence that mbr happened to have business to stop over for on the return leg too?

Hey, I don't ask Class-A members what they do in their personal lives or with their civilian occupations. If they tell me "due to personal/civilian occupation commitments, I will be in location X on the morning of the travel day", I will make arrangements for them to travel to their TD location (assuming it's closer and cheaper) from location X.


Special Leave (Relocation) for Reservists proceeding to the new employment location:  Reservists proceeding to the new employment location on att posting, course (TD) or on taskings, pursuant to Ref B, the approving authority may approve "Special Leave (Relocation)" which must be taken prior to the member's first duty travel day and/or after the last duty travel day (at location of the member's Reserve unit).  Additionally, these days "shall not be reckoned against weekend days or statutory holidays", as stipulated at ref B para 5.11.02.  If "Special Leave (Relocation)" is approved by the unit approving authority, then the member would start the Class “B" reserve service effective that date.  Units are cautioned that the option of using "Special Leave (Relocation)" has a direct cost associated with it; given the member of the Reserve Force’s POS would need to be extended for the extra day(s).  If this type of leave is granted, it is imperative that the pertinent POS msg/instruction be amended to account for the extra day(s).

Highlighted bit: do "Route Letters" count as "pertinent POS msg/instruction"? Because, the reference I have says just to amend the Route Letter, nothing more. The actual message remains unchanged.
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Offline CountDC

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Re: Class-A POMV TD Travel
« Reply #15 on: April 20, 2017, 16:18:21 »
I've probably spent more time discussing, debating, and reading policy and references ad nauseam regarding Travel policy than anything else in the 2 years I've been Adj.
32 years for me and it never gets better.

But what about pay? What if a member's travel day is Monday the 1st of May, and they tell us "don't book me a flight, I'm driving, and I know I don't have enough time, I'm going to leave on Sunday and waive all my CFTDTI benefits". Pay isn't a CFTDTI benefit. Do they lose out on pay as well? Further, incidentals IS a CFTDTI benefit. They'll be getting to their new location, say Borden, and staying in shacks, so they should get incidentals. But they lost their travel benefits for that day? Does that include incidentals? The staying in shacks has nothing to do with their actual "travel".
Pay they would get for the dates they are on Task/Course not for travel days as they are not entitled to one if travel has not been authorized.   They are not entitled to incidentals or staying in the shack either unless the JI's specify local members are ordered to stay in quarters.  Remember by driving there on their own without any authority they have now made themselves a local member.

Hey, I don't ask Class-A members what they do in their personal lives or with their civilian occupations. If they tell me "due to personal/civilian occupation commitments, I will be in location X on the morning of the travel day", I will make arrangements for them to travel to their TD location (assuming it's closer and cheaper) from location X.
That is a choice you are making but maybe you should look a bit closer if you are authorizing things.  Travel is not one way so both ways have to be accounted for and meet the distance requirements.  No harm in asking what the commitment is to ascertain what travel arrangements are needed and valid.  I have had mbr attending a wedding prior to course so CA was the travel arrangement. There was no wedding in the same place on his trip home from the course and it exceeded the 650kms. Of course we flew him from the wedding location.

Highlighted bit: do "Route Letters" count as "pertinent POS msg/instruction"? Because, the reference I have says just to amend the Route Letter, nothing more. The actual message remains unchanged.
No they don't and yes in the old days route letters were amended just about on any basis but that was the old day.  Now you have to let everyone know so amended correspondence (msg, CFTPO, emails) can be generated and attached to the amended route letter as supporting documentation.

I'm still hoping that they will change the policy so I can authorize travel again but ........
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Offline Lumber

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Re: Class-A POMV TD Travel
« Reply #16 on: April 20, 2017, 21:09:51 »

Pay they would get for the dates they are on Task/Course not for travel days as they are not entitled to one if travel has not been authorized.   They are not entitled to incidentals or staying in the shack either unless the JI's specify local members are ordered to stay in quarters.  Remember by driving there on their own without any authority they have now made themselves a local member.


Really? So if a member waives there travel day, lets us know in advance so we don't book a flight, drives to his training course where he will be staying in shacks for 2 months, he won't get any incidentals for the entire period because he's essentially forfeited his status of being on "TD"?
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Re: Class-A POMV TD Travel
« Reply #17 on: April 20, 2017, 21:57:27 »
Doesn't seem right, I've had members drive to course and still get full TD....
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Offline Lumber

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Re: Class-A POMV TD Travel
« Reply #18 on: April 20, 2017, 22:03:33 »
Doesn't seem right, I've had members drive to course and still get full TD....

But were they approved to drive POMV? Or maybe did they do a cost comparison?

The example we're talking about is when a member flat out refused to use the accepted method of travel, nor completed a cost comparison for POMV travel.
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Re: Class-A POMV TD Travel
« Reply #19 on: April 20, 2017, 22:05:52 »
Why can't it be as simple as "it would cost X to fly you there and back. You can drive but you'll be reimbursed up to X.  You can take Y days (500 km per day)." Authorized by CO and off you go.  Nobody spent a dime more than should have been spent on the "most economical (and practical, that bit seems to be forgotten sometimes) mean".

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Re: Class-A POMV TD Travel
« Reply #20 on: April 20, 2017, 22:06:54 »
No I idea, I know that I did for PLQ don't remember getting a cost comparison though....
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