Author Topic: Legal Cannabis Use in the CAF  (Read 8463 times)

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Offline George Wallace

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Re: Legal Cannabis Use in the CAF
« Reply #25 on: April 27, 2017, 14:43:04 »
Keep in mind also for future users that insurance agencies will consider you a "smoker" if you use pot and will adjust your premiums accordingly. Not telling them you smoke could invalidate your future claims.

Now there is an new twist.  Insurance companies and their policies.  Their fine print and changing criteria could have serious ramifications on Insurance Claims.  They are not very good at "grandfathering" things.  (I remember them changing the requirements for wood stoves and changes to the Building Codes with a threat to void my Policy unless I made changes to my home to make my wood stove meet NEW Building Code regulations.)   Nothing like paying mega bucks for insurance, only to find that they will not cover you due to you invalidating one of the articles in your Policy's fine print.
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Offline Chief Stoker

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Re: Legal Cannabis Use in the CAF
« Reply #26 on: April 27, 2017, 14:45:00 »
Interestingly enough at work my PA says that what he is hearing out of health services that it will remain illegal for forces members to while employed by DND. I can imagine the problems we will run into when you are tested, test positive and blame it on off duty use. I can see the CF trying to avoid all of that by having it remain illegal.
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Offline Rifleman62

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Re: Legal Cannabis Use in the CAF
« Reply #27 on: April 27, 2017, 14:49:27 »
Quote
.....quickly drinking large quantities of water becoming 'intoxicated', and one of them having a fatal overdose.


WATER INTOXICATION (HYPONATREMIA)

CAUSE:  DRINKING TOO MUCH WATER TOO QUICKLY - DILUTION OF THE SODIUM IN THE BLOOD.

SYMPTOMS
1.   Symptoms can resemble those of heat stroke or heat exhaustion except body temperature does not rise.
2.   Associated with water intake of 10-20 L over a period of a few hours.


FIRST AID
1.   When water intoxication is suspected, diagnosis must be made at a medical facility.




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Offline Altair

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Re: Legal Cannabis Use in the CAF
« Reply #28 on: April 27, 2017, 14:53:43 »
It's amusing that people think this will change how people approach weed use in the forces.

I know of many people who barely hide the fact they use it off duty, I doubt that's going to change once it's legalized.
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Offline JesseWZ

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Re: Legal Cannabis Use in the CAF
« Reply #29 on: April 27, 2017, 15:51:10 »
It's amusing that people think this will change how people approach weed use in the forces.

I know of many people who barely hide the fact they use it off duty, I doubt that's going to change once it's legalized.

And you don't report these (still) illegal actions to your chain of command or the Military Police as you are obligated and ordered to do so?
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Offline the 48th regulator

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Re: Legal Cannabis Use in the CAF
« Reply #30 on: April 27, 2017, 16:00:34 »
Keep in mind also for future users that insurance agencies will consider you a "smoker" if you use pot and will adjust your premiums accordingly. Not telling them you smoke could invalidate your future claims.

Never heard of this happening yet, not towards me or other Legal Cannabis users.  Further, there are other methods of injestion other than smoking.

dileas

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Offline Altair

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Re: Legal Cannabis Use in the CAF
« Reply #31 on: April 27, 2017, 16:08:09 »
And you don't report these (still) illegal actions to your chain of command or the Military Police as you are obligated and ordered to do so?
:sorry:

Not touching that can of worms.

Besides, with the blind pee tests I'm sure the forces know how many soldiers are using what.
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Offline Larry Strong

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Re: Legal Cannabis Use in the CAF
« Reply #32 on: April 27, 2017, 19:15:48 »
If your smoking a joint for the first time at lunch I would think you would maybe be a little impaired 

If you are a reqular user I would wager a guess you would be in no worse shape than Bloggins who had a barley sanggie for lunch.

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Offline PuckChaser

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Re: Legal Cannabis Use in the CAF
« Reply #33 on: April 27, 2017, 20:19:11 »
It's amusing that people think this will change how people approach weed use in the forces.

I know of many people who barely hide the fact they use it off duty, I doubt that's going to change once it's legalized.

If its legal for the general public, I don't see why we should care in the CAF. Should be treated like alcohol, with an appropriate "toke to work" ratio similar to the 8 hour "bottle to throttle" that's used now. Same system for impaired driving or abuse, it should lead to remedial measures or release much the same as alcohol does.

Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: Legal Cannabis Use in the CAF
« Reply #34 on: April 27, 2017, 22:25:27 »
And you don't report these (still) illegal actions to your chain of command or the Military Police as you are obligated and ordered to do so?

What would happen if I went to an MP detachment and  told them that I know Cpl Smith  was smoking pot off duty?
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Offline JesseWZ

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Re: Legal Cannabis Use in the CAF
« Reply #35 on: April 28, 2017, 00:56:14 »
What would happen if I went to an MP detachment and  told them that I know Cpl Smith  was smoking pot off duty?

I'd like to start by pointing out that "off duty" has very little meaning to it when we are talking about (still) illegal drugs (even marijuana). On a visit to Victoria, the PM stated very clearly that possession of MJ was still illegal. (caveats abound here).

The MP detachment would start an investigation. They may hand it off to the National Drug Enforcement Team of the CFNIS if it were serious enough.

They may use the information for intelligence gathering purposes (i.e. where is Cpl Smith getting the drugs? Are others getting them too? Is he selling them? Does he sell other drugs?) or they may attempt to gather evidence of use and then swear what is known as a "Test for Cause" which compels the member to provide a sample. Members may also be investigated for possession, production or trafficking as the situation warrants.
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Offline recceguy

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Re: Legal Cannabis Use in the CAF
« Reply #36 on: April 28, 2017, 01:19:08 »
:sorry:

Not touching that can of worms.

Besides, with the blind pee tests I'm sure the forces know how many soldiers are using what.

Was there a point here?  Whatever point you are trying to make seems to be lost in translation.

You said "Not touching that can of worms." , then you  proceeded to do just that.

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Offline Chief Stoker

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Re: Legal Cannabis Use in the CAF
« Reply #37 on: April 28, 2017, 06:20:45 »
If its legal for the general public, I don't see why we should care in the CAF. Should be treated like alcohol, with an appropriate "toke to work" ratio similar to the 8 hour "bottle to throttle" that's used now. Same system for impaired driving or abuse, it should lead to remedial measures or release much the same as alcohol does.

I guess the fact we're not just the public and really at the end of the day they can ban what they want. The drug has been stigmatized for so many years in Canada that I can see Health Services pushing for a general ban just because like smoking can cause harm and the perception to the public of a member off duty. Alcohol is already out there and accepted but not so much of Cannabis yet. As well when we get into the testing aspect to determine on duty and off duty use which will be a large can of worms and I can see a general ban to avoid that as the CF is risk averse.  The cost of the extra testing that will no doubt come is very expensive which police services across Canada are finding out about and are concerned about who will pay. Also remember a sizable amount of the general population do not agree with legalization and I expect the same in the CF, including the decision makers.  I think its a given that the drug won't be allowed on DND property and I can very well see it remain as a service offence. Down the road with more acceptance who knows.
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Offline Halifax Tar

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Re: Legal Cannabis Use in the CAF
« Reply #38 on: April 28, 2017, 06:52:08 »
I wonder if the RCN will govern MJ usage like it does booze.  None at sea, 2 joints ashore unless otherwise authorized.
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Re: Legal Cannabis Use in the CAF
« Reply #39 on: April 28, 2017, 08:56:42 »
The big issue is going to be in terms of "bottle to throttle" times (I didn't think "Toke to stoke" would work)...an issue with THC is that is a fat soluble drug, which is why it likes your brain so much.  However, because of that, it also is less predictable metabolically as far as degradation, unlike alcohol, which I can pretty much time with a stop watch.  As an extreme, I had a rather obese patient of mine that was a very regular weed smoker that had a safety sensitive job that required regular testing - they were still pissing positive for well over 6 months after they quit, because the stuff was stored in their fat cells...and they were actively losing weight to boot, so it was coming out in droves.  So, we have to either say no use is good use, OR that you'll have to maintain a certain body fat percentage if you want to use.  The other issue of course is abuse - just like alcohol, if you let them have a little, they sometimes take a lot, and continue to.  The standards for misuse/abuse will have to be maintained/adjusted - if you show up stoned, tough tiddly winks just as if you're drunk.

 :2c:

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Offline Lumber

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Re: Legal Cannabis Use in the CAF
« Reply #40 on: April 28, 2017, 10:05:21 »
I'd like to start by pointing out that "off duty" has very little meaning to it when we are talking about (still) illegal drugs (even marijuana). On a visit to Victoria, the PM stated very clearly that possession of MJ was still illegal. (caveats abound here).

The MP detachment would start an investigation. They may hand it off to the National Drug Enforcement Team of the CFNIS if it were serious enough.

They may use the information for intelligence gathering purposes (i.e. where is Cpl Smith getting the drugs? Are others getting them too? Is he selling them? Does he sell other drugs?) or they may attempt to gather evidence of use and then swear what is known as a "Test for Cause" which compels the member to provide a sample. Members may also be investigated for possession, production or trafficking as the situation warrants.

Are there statistics that are available on "number of tips/complaints/reports", and "number of actual investigations opened as a result"?

Do the MPs ever get a call about suspected cannabis use and just say "Ok, thanks" and do nothing further? I ask because, I have a lot of civilian police friends, and given the casual attitude toward cannabis in "civilian" Canada, they often just don't care about cannabis use. They will walk right by people smoking a joint on the street because they simply to not have the time or resources to bother intervening with something that most of Canada feels is relatively harmless. Does this also happen with the MPs?
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Offline LunchMeat

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Re: Legal Cannabis Use in the CAF
« Reply #41 on: April 28, 2017, 11:15:17 »
Are there statistics that are available on "number of tips/complaints/reports", and "number of actual investigations opened as a result"?

Do the MPs ever get a call about suspected cannabis use and just say "Ok, thanks" and do nothing further? I ask because, I have a lot of civilian police friends, and given the casual attitude toward cannabis in "civilian" Canada, they often just don't care about cannabis use. They will walk right by people smoking a joint on the street because they simply to not have the time or resources to bother intervening with something that most of Canada feels is relatively harmless. Does this also happen with the MPs?

Considering the nature of our job, and that not just users but suppliers with links to organized crime potentially on our bases, it's definitely taken a lot more seriously.
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Offline Lumber

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Re: Legal Cannabis Use in the CAF
« Reply #42 on: April 28, 2017, 11:32:07 »
Considering the nature of our job, and that not just users but suppliers with links to organized crime potentially on our bases, it's definitely taken a lot more seriously.

Oh I imagine it does get taken more seriously, and I'm glad that it does. I guess I'm just curious how much more serious? Is it zero tolerance, or do the MPs turned a blind eye to some reports if it's just for "casual" use as I've seen from civi police? (well, not actually "seen" but heard stories first hand form civi cops).

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Offline Altair

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Re: Legal Cannabis Use in the CAF
« Reply #43 on: April 28, 2017, 11:43:52 »
Was there a point here?  Whatever point you are trying to make seems to be lost in translation.

You said "Not touching that can of worms." , then you  proceeded to do just that.
The point was I'm not going to be the guy who starts telling the CoC every little thing other soldiers are doing on their free time.

Completely not worth being the most hated untrusted soldier in a section just to let the CoC know that someone is smoking weed on the weekend.

That's the can of worms I'm refusing to touch.
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Offline JesseWZ

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Re: Legal Cannabis Use in the CAF
« Reply #44 on: April 28, 2017, 15:01:16 »
Are there statistics that are available on "number of tips/complaints/reports", and "number of actual investigations opened as a result"?

Do the MPs ever get a call about suspected cannabis use and just say "Ok, thanks" and do nothing further? I ask because, I have a lot of civilian police friends, and given the casual attitude toward cannabis in "civilian" Canada, they often just don't care about cannabis use. They will walk right by people smoking a joint on the street because they simply to not have the time or resources to bother intervening with something that most of Canada feels is relatively harmless. Does this also happen with the MPs?

While I can't speak for the entire MP Branch, tips, calls, etc, do should be looked at. Sometimes they are just used to build an intelligence narrative, or to justify expanding a current investigation to include new suspects, and sometimes they just sit as information that is good to know.

I don't currently work in the drug unit, however in my experience (a few years on the road, 1 in the General Investigation Section/Court Liaison Position, and 1 in the CFNIS), all drug tips are at the very least recorded and followed up on. Often it depends on the quality/quantity of information received. If its a one line anonymous tip on the tips line with no verifiable information, it has to be taken for what it's worth.

Cheers
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Offline JesseWZ

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Re: Legal Cannabis Use in the CAF
« Reply #45 on: April 28, 2017, 15:13:07 »
The point was I'm not going to be the guy who starts telling the CoC every little thing other soldiers are doing on their free time.

Completely not worth being the most hated untrusted soldier in a section just to let the CoC know that someone is smoking weed on the weekend.

That's the can of worms I'm refusing to touch.

I don't understand you. You posted in a thread about Legal Cannabis use, alluding to knowledge of illegal cannabis use. That wasn't the discussion. Then, when you are called on your knowledge of illegal cannabis use, you hide behind some kind of excuse involving your interpersonal relationships with your section justifying a blatant disregard for specific orders and directions on your duty to report.

In my opinion, you lack moral courage and could use some remedial training on ethics. If only the CF had some kind of yearly ethics presentation everyone is required to review and understand... ::)
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Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Legal Cannabis Use in the CAF
« Reply #46 on: April 28, 2017, 15:28:45 »
The big issue is going to be in terms of "bottle to throttle" times (I didn't think "Toke to stoke" would work)...an issue with THC is that is a fat soluble drug, which is why it likes your brain so much.  However, because of that, it also is less predictable metabolically as far as degradation, unlike alcohol, which I can pretty much time with a stop watch.  As an extreme, I had a rather obese patient of mine that was a very regular weed smoker that had a safety sensitive job that required regular testing - they were still pissing positive for well over 6 months after they quit, because the stuff was stored in their fat cells...and they were actively losing weight to boot, so it was coming out in droves.  So, we have to either say no use is good use, OR that you'll have to maintain a certain body fat percentage if you want to use.  The other issue of course is abuse - just like alcohol, if you let them have a little, they sometimes take a lot, and continue to.  The standards for misuse/abuse will have to be maintained/adjusted - if you show up stoned, tough tiddly winks just as if you're drunk.

 :2c:

MM

Any thoughts on how they'll view this for things like Aircrew, divers, submariners?  The medical standards and factors seem to be more stringent there.  Trying to picture Cheech and Chong in the cockpit of a CAF aircraft etc.
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Offline Altair

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Re: Legal Cannabis Use in the CAF
« Reply #47 on: April 28, 2017, 15:34:03 »
I don't understand you. You posted in a thread about Legal Cannabis use, alluding to knowledge of illegal cannabis use. That wasn't the discussion. Then, when you are called on your knowledge of illegal cannabis use, you hide behind some kind of excuse involving your interpersonal relationships with your section justifying a blatant disregard for specific orders and directions on your duty to report.

In my opinion, you lack moral courage and could use some remedial training on ethics. If only the CF had some kind of yearly ethics presentation everyone is required to review and understand... ::)
Ah yes, me and every other person who is privy to this information in my section could definitely use a ethics brief.
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Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Legal Cannabis Use in the CAF
« Reply #48 on: April 28, 2017, 15:37:03 »
Ah yes, me and every other person who is privy to this information in my section could definitely use a ethics brief.

Everyone knows Bloggins is jokin and tokin and no one, not even the NCOs or WOs, care?  Civilian Canadian Society can judge weed use to be OK! and the laws can change accordingly.  In the military, we play by our own rules that don't necessarily run the same track.  AFAIK, prohibited drug use in the CAF is an offence.  I guess you guys think its ok with Smithers leaves the mess hammered up and drives home too?

* I am assuming you were being sarcastic.   :nod:

For consideration....

http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/about-policies-standards-defence-admin-orders-directives-5000/5019-3.page

3.1 The CAF is committed to a drug-free workforce by providing the appropriate tools and information to reduce or eliminate the drug-risk behaviours of CAF members.

General

5.1 The chain of command and individual CAF members are responsible for the deterrence and detection of prohibited drug use and other involvement with drugs by CAF members.

Other Involvement with Drugs

5.2 The following table amplifies "other involvement with drugs" by a CAF member:

Examples of drug-related conduct that does not constitute other involvement with drugs for the purposes of this DAOD include, but are not limited to …•failing to report prohibited drug use or other involvement with drugs by another CAF member;


Not clear enough?  How about this then...

QR&Os: Volume I - Chapter 5 Duties and Responsibilities of Non-Commissioned Members

5.01- GENERAL RESPONSIBILITIES OF NON-COMMISSIONED MEMBERS

A non-commissioned member shall:

a.become acquainted with, observe and enforce i.the National Defence Act,
ii.the Security of Information Act, (5 June 2008)
iii.QR&O, and
iv.all other regulations, rules, orders and instructions that pertain to the performance of the member's duties;

b.afford to all persons employed in the public service such assistance in the performance of their duties as is practical;

c.promote the welfare, efficiency and good discipline of all who are subordinate to the member;

d.ensure the proper care and maintenance and prevent the waste of all public and non-public property within the member's control; and

e.report to the proper authority any infringement of the pertinent statutes, regulations, rules, orders and instructions governing the conduct of any person subject to the Code of Service Discipline.

Unless it changed very recently, the CAF still prohibits drug use.  The laws of Canada...still no change. 
« Last Edit: April 28, 2017, 15:51:01 by Eye In The Sky »
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Offline Altair

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Re: Legal Cannabis Use in the CAF
« Reply #49 on: April 28, 2017, 15:47:52 »
Everyone knows Bloggins is jokin and tokin and no one, not even the NCOs or WOs, care?  Civilian Canadian Society can judge weed use to be OK! and the laws can change accordingly.  In the military, we play by our own rules that don't necessarily run the same track.  AFAIK, prohibited drug use in the CAF is an offence.  I guess you guys think its ok with Smithers leaves the mess hammered up and drives home too?
Without getting into the specifics, I know for a fact that most of the junior guys know, we were all shooting the crap and that came out. A few others said they partake on occasion as well. That was over a year ago. He does it on weekends in the comfort of his own home, nobody cares, the guy hasn't been called out on it, nor anyone else who said they use it.

The guy is a keener, works hard, will probably be a RSM one day, CoC loves him, never complains, and is overall a great soldier. If you want to relate that to being a danger to others by driving under the influence, be my guest, but I don't think that's the case and I wont be the guy blading someone when nobody I know has a problem with what he said. He's not a danger to himself or others, so I'll mind my own business.
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