Author Topic: May 2017 Manchester UK bombing (split fm Religious/Extremist Terrorism: Non-Muslim edition)  (Read 6109 times)

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Offline Oldgateboatdriver

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An additional point on T6's historical fact that contradicts Morrissey's view of the Queen as safe in her bubble: Morrissey should remember that, throughout the Troubles, the Royal family, all of them, were always at the top of target lists of the IRA and Provisional IRA. They lived under constant threat of assassination, being bombed or other assorted ill treatment from these lovely people.

Offline jollyjacktar

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  ???    And...?
Someone with supposedly celebrity status yammering about a topic in which they know nothing;  the first three substantive paragraphs of the article were each his statement, followed by it being debunked by the writer.
As for the Queen cancelling a garden party... now that  would send terrorists some sort of message... I guess   :dunno:   I'll have to wait until the Dixie Chicks weigh in on this one......

That was just someone's opinion.  He has one, I have one, you have one.... everybody does.  And...? 

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That was just someone's opinion.  He has one, I have one, you have one.... everybody does.  And...?
Hey, you posted it; I gather you thought it had some value that I obviously missed.... besides his having been in a band (I gather)... even though his opinions were shown not to have any factual basis. 
(It's my old hobby-horse about 'opinion versus informed opinion').


Maybe we just post these banners everywhere; that'll bring the terrorists to their senses!   :nod:

http://i.imgur.com/7RPAKwy.jpg   [NSFW, so you have to click on it yourself]

Offline jollyjacktar

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He is just one of I am sure many celebs who will be coming out of the woodwork and have the platform to get their opinions out there (unlike us). 

I will say in his defence that he has more of a dog in the fight than I do as he is from Manchester, British and closer to the fire than I am.  I do agree with him to some degree as well.  Those politicians etc do have resources to protect them better than the great unwashed do from such threats (and for good reason).  Much the same POV (as some folks here have opined) that our PM doesn't really have a connection to what it is like to not have money or a job as he has been insulated from these worries by virtue of coming from money to begin with.  I know from my wife's side of the family (who do live in London), that the nieces and nephews are a little more nervous nowadays when they are out in the street as this crap is happening out of the blue and they could suddenly find themselves in the middle of it (without the added protection of a armoured limo or security detail around them, for example).  So, yes, I have the opinion that some of Morrissy's, points are valid to some degree.   :2c: 

Offline milnews.ca

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Not in the non-muslim terrorist attacks thread anymore?
Split & moved once ISIS claimed responsibility.

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Offline Chris Pook

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On the subject of ID of the terrorist:

This from the British Home Secretary

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/05/24/amber-rudd-criticises-us-leaking-manchester-terror-attack-information/

The US is becoming an unreliable partner.  And I think there is a lot of blame to go around there.  Not just the political administration, but also the entrenched bureaucracy who are expected to be more professional in these matters.  The press?  I don't blame them.  They are scorpions doing that which is in their nature.

But I am concerned that the US is going to have to go through a stable-cleaning.

"Wyrd bið ful aræd"

Offline Humphrey Bogart

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  ???    And...?
Someone with supposedly celebrity status yammering about a topic in which they know nothing;  the first three substantive paragraphs of the article were each his statement, followed by it being debunked by the writer.
As for the Queen cancelling a garden party... now that  would send terrorists some sort of message... I guess   :dunno:   I'll have to wait until the Dixie Chicks weigh in on this one......


As for some of the suggestions here....
I'm assuming that everyone is up to speed on Bill C-36 (Anti-Terrorism Act, 2001), Bill C-44 (Protection of Canada from Terrorists Act, 2014), and Bill C-51 (Anti-Terrorism Act, 2015).  All were passed in the shadow of a recent terrorist action; many of their provisions, when used in court, were overturned as being unconstitutional.  That's a problem when people try to rush through quick 'fixes' when angry/scared.  Personally, I see a very good reason that the Charter of Rights and Freedoms forms the first part of our Constitution Act.

For example, taking incarceration until the end of conflict, without trial, based on someone being known to hold extremist views....
Will implementing that:
a)  be a propaganda/radicalizing tool against the currently undecided, being further evidence of "how we are oppressors"?
b)  be remotely effective with a youth considering becoming a suicide bomber -- "gosh, I could end up in jail; I better turn my life around"?
c)  perhaps see an increase of people deemed suspiciously extremist?

....in effect, we would move closer to behaving like the very extremists whose behaviour we cannot comprehend.  This is Canada; I like to think we're better than that.  It's lunacy to even suggest such behaviour.


Nietzsche: He who fights with monsters should be careful lest he thereby become a monster.  And if thou gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will also gaze into thee.

Yoda: Remember, a Jedi's strength flows from the Force.  But beware.  Anger, fear, aggression.  The dark side are they.  Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny.


Great post Journeyman, blanket incarceration without justification doesn't work and will probably have the opposite effect of what we are trying to achieve which is a society based around Peace, Order and Good Government.

Mass incarceration is partially responsible for the creation of some of the most violent criminal gangs on earth today:

"ISIS Was Born In An American Detention Facility (And It Wasn’t Gitmo)"
https://www.lawfareblog.com/isis-was-born-american-detention-facility-and-it-wasnt-gitmo

"Brazil crime gang has spread through most of country"
http://www.emirates247.com/brazil-crime-gang-has-spread-through-most-of-country-2012-11-25-1.484727

"Mexican Mafia: The Most Dangerous Gang
Surenos you encounter are taking their orders from a higher authority"


http://www.policemag.com/blog/gangs/story/2010/04/mexican-mafia-the-most-dangerous-gang.aspx

Mass incarceration leads to criminals becoming more organized and more dangerous  through communalism and concentration.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2017, 11:28:48 by Humphrey Bogart »

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He is just one of I am sure many celebs who will be coming out of the woodwork and have the platform to get their opinions out there (unlike us) ...
And these have to be taken with a significant grain of salt so soon after such attacks, just like the memes already out there (see attached) suggesting the performer may be partly to blame for this -- well played, especially so soon afterwards  ::) ... #OpinionVersusInformedOpinion

Meanwhile, in other developments:

* - While owned by the First Church of Christ, Scientist, it really is (IMHO) a decent, non-evangelical, non-sensationalist source of international news - with a few Pulitzers under its belt.
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Offline Kat Stevens

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Nietzsche: He who fights with monsters should be careful lest he thereby become a monster.  And if thou gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will also gaze into thee.


East London addendum: when the monster has you on your knees, reach up, grab its balls, and yank as hard as you can.
Apparently, a "USUAL SUSPECT"

“In peace there's nothing so becomes a man as modest stillness and humility; but when the blast of war blows in our ears, then imitate the action of the tiger; stiffen the sinews, summon up the blood, disguise fair nature with hard-favor'd rage.”

 Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and start slitting throats

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Offline tomahawk6

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Eight in custody so far including the father,two brothers and a woman.

Offline Jarnhamar

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I think there will come a point in time where enough people will get fed up with Islam and the whole jihadist thing and start thinking on a Hiroshima level lack of ****s to give. 

IMO this crap compounded enough will threaten our species.  I suspect as these attacks happen more and more in North America we will notice a change. Then again Sweden Germany seem under seige but don't seem to be changing their tune very much so maybe I'm wrong.

Still, I'm okay with putting on monster face camo if it means I can lessen the chances of my 7 year old getting smash to pieces at a Ariana grande concert.
There are no wolves on Fenris

Offline daftandbarmy

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I think there will come a point in time where enough people will get fed up with Islam and the whole jihadist thing and start thinking on a Hiroshima level lack of ****s to give. 

IMO this crap compounded enough will threaten our species.  I suspect as these attacks happen more and more in North America we will notice a change. Then again Sweden Germany seem under seige but don't seem to be changing their tune very much so maybe I'm wrong.

Still, I'm okay with putting on monster face camo if it means I can lessen the chances of my 7 year old getting smash to pieces at a Ariana grande concert.

Unfortunately for we club swingers these wars are usually fought, and won or lost, in the shadows. Although there are now soldiers on the streets, paradoxically to give citizens a sense of security, their utility in these kinds of conflicts is largely nil.

Building wide and deep ranging intelligence/ informant networks and 'trap lines' is all part of the solution, along with boundaryless, mutually beneficial security service and diplomatic type connections with a variety of foreign countries, some of whom we would publicly deem 'unpalatable'.

After one tour in Belfast we were told that the 'sneaky peekies' identified hundreds of terrorist operations that were spooled up against us, with only a dozen or so being successfully launched. We 'walking figure 11s' could only take credit for a small portion of those misses. In the same way, in Mainland Britain right now, for every bomb that gets through I'm guessing that dozens have been thwarted/ prevented in one way or another. And we'll never be told about how that all panned out, hopefully.

« Last Edit: May 25, 2017, 00:35:14 by daftandbarmy »
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Offline Brihard

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Unfortunately for we club swingers these wars are usually fought, and won or lost, in the shadows. Although there are now soldiers on the streets, paradoxically to give citizens a sense of security, their utility in these kids of conflicts is largely nil.

Building wide and deep ranging intelligence/ informant networks and 'trap lines' is all part of the solution, along with boundaryless, mutually beneficial security service and diplomatic type connections with a variety of foreign countries, some of whom we would publicly deem 'unpalatable'.

After one tour in Belfast we were told that the 'sneaky peekies' identified hundreds of terrorist operations that were spooled up against us, with only a dozen or so being successfully launched. We 'walking figure 11s' could only take credit for a small portion of those misses. In the same way, in Mainland Britain right now, for every bomb that gets through I'm guessing that dozens have been thwarted/ prevented in one way or another. And we'll never be told about how that all panned out, hopefully.

Yup.
Pacificsm is doctrine fostered by a delusional minority and by the media, which holds forth the proposition it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.

Offline Jarnhamar

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Quote from: daftandbarmy


After one tour in Belfast we were told that the 'sneaky peekies' identified hundreds of terrorist operations that were spooled up against us, with only a dozen or so being successfully launched. We 'walking figure 11s' could only take credit for a small portion of those misses. In the same way, in Mainland Britain right now, for every bomb that gets through I'm guessing that dozens have been thwarted/ prevented in one way or another. And we'll never be told about how that all panned out, hopefully.

No disagreement here.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2017, 03:56:02 by Jarnhamar »
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Offline jollyjacktar

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Unfortunately for we club swingers these wars are usually fought, and won or lost, in the shadows. Although there are now soldiers on the streets, paradoxically to give citizens a sense of security, their utility in these kinds of conflicts is largely nil.

Building wide and deep ranging intelligence/ informant networks and 'trap lines' is all part of the solution, along with boundaryless, mutually beneficial security service and diplomatic type connections with a variety of foreign countries, some of whom we would publicly deem 'unpalatable'.

After one tour in Belfast we were told that the 'sneaky peekies' identified hundreds of terrorist operations that were spooled up against us, with only a dozen or so being successfully launched. We 'walking figure 11s' could only take credit for a small portion of those misses. In the same way, in Mainland Britain right now, for every bomb that gets through I'm guessing that dozens have been thwarted/ prevented in one way or another. And we'll never be told about how that all panned out, hopefully.

The shadow folks are still fettered more than I would like to see against these sort of targets.  Pretty hard to box with one hand tied behind the back.  The Marquis of Queensbury rules only make it easier for the bastards to get away with murder.

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Offline Jarnhamar

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Another reoccurring  tradgity in our society is that anytime something like this happens now it becomes inspiration for shitty memes aiming to get a cheap lol/'like' or  argument entertainment for people on SM.
Someone uses it to make an outlandish quote and steal 5 minutes of airtime.
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Offline tomahawk6

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Offline tomahawk6

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Now the Brits have stopped sharing info with the US because of leaks.Sad but until Trump gets rid of the democrat holdovers in the intelligence agencies and the FBI we wont be trusted.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-40040210

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Another reoccurring  tradgity in our society is that anytime something like this happens now it becomes inspiration for shitty memes aiming to get a cheap lol/'like' or  argument entertainment for people on SM.
Too true ...
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Offline jmt18325

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Now the Brits have stopped sharing info with the US because of leaks.Sad but until Trump gets rid of the democrat holdovers in the intelligence agencies and the FBI we wont be trusted.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-40040210

Yes, because it was the Democrats that leaked Israeli intelligence to the Russian Ambassador. 

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The shadow folks are still fettered more than I would like to see against these sort of targets.  Pretty hard to box with one hand tied behind the back.  The Marquis of Queensbury rules only make it easier for the bastards to get away with murder.
I feel your frustration, too, but when it comes to these kinds of solutions, one way to look at is like this: 

In any system run by humans, stuff falls through the cracks & mistakes are made.  Some suggest that too many bad guys are getting through.  The other way to go could (likely would) lead to more innocent people getting nabbed & imprisoned.  My question:  who feels strongly enough about tightening up the system that they would be happy to be one of the people incorrectly nabbed & imprisoned as the price of positively nabbing every, single, last bad guy out there?

These are extreme examples, but that's what makes the balance in between so tough to find.  And as others way smarter than me have said, being mad and/or scared isn't usually conducive to finding the best solution.
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Offline Humphrey Bogart

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I feel your frustration, too, but when it comes to these kinds of solutions, one way to look at is like this: 

In any system run by humans, stuff falls through the cracks & mistakes are made.  Some suggest that too many bad guys are getting through.  The other way to go could (likely would) lead to more innocent people getting nabbed & imprisoned.  My question:  who feels strongly enough about tightening up the system that they would be happy to be one of the people incorrectly nabbed & imprisoned as the price of positively nabbing every, single, last bad guy out there?

These are extreme examples, but that's what makes the balance in between so tough to find.  And as others way smarter than me have said, being mad and/or scared isn't usually conducive to finding the best solution.

The real shadow shadow folks are not fettered about actually.  You're mistaking gunslingers like SOF for actual real shadow folks like CIA Special Activities Division, Force Research Unit (now known as Joint Support Group), MI6 SIS, RCMP Covert Operations Branch, etc. 

Google any of those organizations and you will find very little information and the info that is available is limited.  SOF is sexy; therefore, it naturally draws attention which is good because we want the bad guys to know we have big strong mean people that will come get them in their sleep.  The work that leads up those Direct Actions though isn't sexy at all, it's incredibly time consuming and resource intensive and requires highly skilled individuals.  Not skilled in the military sense though, military types generally make terrible intelligence operatives because they are way too institutionalized, too clean cut, too physically fit.  In other words, you can spot them a mile away.

Unfortunately for we club swingers these wars are usually fought, and won or lost, in the shadows. Although there are now soldiers on the streets, paradoxically to give citizens a sense of security, their utility in these kinds of conflicts is largely nil.

Building wide and deep ranging intelligence/ informant networks and 'trap lines' is all part of the solution, along with boundaryless, mutually beneficial security service and diplomatic type connections with a variety of foreign countries, some of whom we would publicly deem 'unpalatable'.

After one tour in Belfast we were told that the 'sneaky peekies' identified hundreds of terrorist operations that were spooled up against us, with only a dozen or so being successfully launched. We 'walking figure 11s' could only take credit for a small portion of those misses. In the same way, in Mainland Britain right now, for every bomb that gets through I'm guessing that dozens have been thwarted/ prevented in one way or another. And we'll never be told about how that all panned out, hopefully.

In a lot of ways its counter productive to surge soldiers on to the streets because it breaks up pattern of life and tampers with the atmospherics in the area of operations.  Any insurgent cells that are/were still active will adjust their TTPs accordingly and this has the potential to disrupt actual intelligence gathering initiatives.  This is something that is best handled by Police Forces, they are far better than the Mlitary is at this sort of thing.

 


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The real shadow shadow folks are not fettered about actually.  You're mistaking gunslingers like SOF for actual real shadow folks like CIA Special Activities Division, Force Research Unit (now known as Joint Support Group), MI6 SIS, RCMP Covert Operations Branch, etc. ...
I read JJT's comment as referring more to law enforcement/legal system than covert gun slingers - thanks for adding that.
... In a lot of ways its counter productive to surge soldiers on to the streets because it breaks up pattern of life and tampers with the atmospherics in the area of operations.  Any insurgent cells that are/were still active will adjust their TTPs accordingly and this has the potential to disrupt actual intelligence gathering initiatives.  This is something that is best handled by Police Forces, they are far better than the Mlitary is at this sort of thing.
Good point.
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