Author Topic: 3 Jun 2017: Vehicle Hits Pedestrians on London Bridge  (Read 3627 times)

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Re: 3 Jun 2017: Vehicle Hits Pedestrians on London Bridge
« Reply #25 on: June 04, 2017, 13:04:11 »
And word that a Canadian has been killed, via the PMJT info-machine...
Quote
The Prime Minister, Justin Trudeau, today issued the following statement after last night’s terrorist attack in the United Kingdom:

“Canada strongly condemns the senseless attack that took place last night in London, United Kingdom, which killed and injured many innocent people. I am heartbroken that a Canadian is among those killed.

“We grieve with the families and friends of those who have lost loved ones, and wish all those injured a speedy and full recovery.

"Londoners and people across the United Kingdom have always displayed strength and resilience in the face of adversity. We recently witnessed this after the attacks in Manchester and in the Westminster area of London. This time will be no different.

“These hateful acts do not deter us; they only strengthen our resolve. Canadians stand united with the British people. We will continue to work together with the United Kingdom and all our allies to fight terrorism and bring perpetrators to justice.

“The Government of Canada will not comment further at this time out of respect for the family.”
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Offline Cdn Blackshirt

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Re: 3 Jun 2017: Vehicle Hits Pedestrians on London Bridge
« Reply #26 on: June 04, 2017, 15:20:18 »
I think one of the issues most people will gloss over is that PM May said they disrupted 5 "credible" attack plans since the Manchester attack.

If that is true, and each group had its own support structure, the claim that these violent beliefs reside in only a tiny (and heretical) portion of the islamic demographic becomes highly dubious.

I should add that when these guys act out specific instructions from the Qur'an (such as "strike them in the neck") it blows holes in the argument that they are the ones misinterpreting the holy books.

Bad situation.....
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Offline Thucydides

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Re: 3 Jun 2017: Vehicle Hits Pedestrians on London Bridge
« Reply #27 on: June 04, 2017, 16:01:49 »
Perhaps the only bit of good coming from this is the Britons who responded with the "United 93" defense, including a cabbie who tried to run down one attacker, and pub goers who fought an attacker with chairs, beer bottles and beer mugs.

Something to remember when this happens here; a pack of sheepdogs is very effective against a wolf.........
Dagny, this is not a battle over material goods. It's a moral crisis, the greatest the world has ever faced and the last. Our age is the climax of centuries of evil. We must put an end to it, once and for all, or perish - we, the men of the mind. It was our own guilt. We produced the wealth of the world - but we let our enemies write its moral code.

Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: 3 Jun 2017: Vehicle Hits Pedestrians on London Bridge
« Reply #28 on: June 04, 2017, 16:39:48 »
If and when this starts happening in North America and specifically Canada  more frequently we won't handle it very well socially. When one soldier was shot and killed our army was essentially  ordered to hide.

The UK has considerable experience dealing with terror at home across a few generations. I don't know much about the FLQ crisis but I'd hazard a guess and say it's not comparable to the IRA.

Canadians would be too paralyzed with fear to go anywhere  if someone jacked a truck and took out 80 people at a July 1st part.  We'd be busy blaming Harper and Trudeau but wouldn't take suitable action against radical Islam.

Quote from: Cdn Blackshirt
.
violent beliefs reside in only a tiny (and heretical) portion of the islamic


I see and hear that a lot. When only 1% of a group are "bad apples" but that adds up to tens or hundreds of millions of people that's pretty dangerous.
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Offline PongoCadet

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Re: 3 Jun 2017: Vehicle Hits Pedestrians on London Bridge
« Reply #29 on: June 04, 2017, 17:02:50 »
If and when this starts happening in North America and specifically Canada  more frequently we won't handle it very well socially. When one soldier was shot and killed our army was essentially  ordered to hide.

The UK has considerable experience dealing with terror at home across a few generations. I don't know much about the FLQ crisis but I'd hazard a guess and say it's not comparable to the IRA.

Canadians would be too paralyzed with fear to go anywhere  if someone jacked a truck and took out 80 people at a July 1st part.  We'd be busy blaming Harper and Trudeau but wouldn't take suitable action against radical Islam.

I see and hear that a lot. When only 1% of a group are "bad apples" but that adds up to tens or hundreds of millions of people that's pretty dangerous.

Its unfortunately been a major part of British recent history. I've been raised by people that lived through the height of the IRA activity, who were raised by people who lived through the Blitz. Its a sad fact but its just my generation's 'trouble' that we will either have to crackdown on or just get on with.

Offline Chris Pook

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Re: 3 Jun 2017: Vehicle Hits Pedestrians on London Bridge
« Reply #30 on: June 04, 2017, 17:13:09 »
Best Article Yet!

Quote
...In the aftermath of these attacks, most people seem to choose one of two camps: the “love will prevail” pep-talkers and the “wake up!” warriors. Am I alone in finding that neither resonates? I can no more fill my heart with love and talk about our unity than I can furiously denounce others for their lack of rage, declare the West’s impending doom or demand the election be postponed.

Denial or hysteria cannot be the only options. There is something in between. Of course daily life does not sail on unchanged when it’s punctuated by terrorist attacks. It carries on, but with a little more wariness and fear. And yet, nor am I convinced that Islamist terrorism, despite its horrors, poses an existential threat to our civilisation. I believe that Britain and its values are resilient and deeply rooted. I believe this not because of “love”, but because it is one of the lessons of our history.
 
We have certainly faced greater perils. At various points, would-be invaders or empire-building tyrants on the continent have threatened Britain’s security. We’ve had tyrants of our own, civil war and bloody religious strife. We’ve had periods of greater vigilance, such as during the threat of IRA bombs. We’ve lived with official advice, such as “how to survive an air raid”, as terrifying as the police’s latest mantra that the public ought to “run, hide, tell” during a terrorist attack....

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/06/04/britains-democracy-hard-earned-should-look-history-tackle/

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Re: 3 Jun 2017: Vehicle Hits Pedestrians on London Bridge
« Reply #31 on: June 04, 2017, 18:16:48 »
Global, among other media outlets, have identifed the Canadian killed in the attacks as Christine (Chrissy) Archibald of B.C.
Condolences to family & friends, and hopes for a speedy recovery to all the wounded.
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Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: 3 Jun 2017: Vehicle Hits Pedestrians on London Bridge
« Reply #32 on: June 04, 2017, 19:12:57 »
Pretty sad stuff to digest as a parent.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2017, 19:16:22 by Jarnhamar »
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Re: 3 Jun 2017: Vehicle Hits Pedestrians on London Bridge
« Reply #33 on: June 04, 2017, 19:38:30 »
My condolences to all those affected by the terrorist attacks.

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Re: 3 Jun 2017: Vehicle Hits Pedestrians on London Bridge
« Reply #34 on: June 05, 2017, 07:16:26 »
Aaaaannnd ....
Quote
#ISIS Includes #LondonAttacks Among Claimed Military Operations in its al-Bayan News Bulletin http://tinyurl.com/y7f7u47p *
* - Links to a subscription-only article by SITE Intel Group.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2017, 12:26:37 by milnews.ca »
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Re: 3 Jun 2017: Vehicle Hits Pedestrians on London Bridge
« Reply #35 on: June 05, 2017, 11:49:58 »
With only a short time to go until  General Election, looking tough on Terrorism could help May.

Under the Prevention of Terrorism Act in NI, we could arrest and hold anyone for 4 hours on 'probable cause' for example. This was never used on the UK Mainland, but looks like it could be trotted out now. This is, of course, a double edged sword as a 'modification' of habeus corpus, accompanied by a dragnet extended across whole communities could pull in thousands of 'suspects', all of whom will be 'dark skinned' and many of whom will be under 30 and completely innocent and, thus, potentially primed for increased radicalization e.g., Operation Demetrius https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Demetrius:

Theresa May responds to London Bridge attack with anti-terror laws promise

Prime minister accused of politicising atrocity as she says there has been ‘far too much tolerance of extremism’

May is expected to introduce control orders for terror suspects. Iain Duncan Smith, a former Tory work and pensions secretary, told The World this Weekend that she would probably try to toughen up terrorism, prevention and investigation measures, known as Tpims.

These are the measures introduced by the coalition to place restrictions on people who are suspected of being terrorists but who have not been convicted of an offence.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jun/04/london-bridge-attack-pushes-theresa-may-into-promising-new-laws
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Re: 3 Jun 2017: Vehicle Hits Pedestrians on London Bridge
« Reply #36 on: June 05, 2017, 12:34:13 »
A quick round-up by the New Jersey Office of Homeland Security & Preparedness (which regularly shares all sorts of open-source analysis of regional, national and international developments here) - also attached if link doesn't work - with a "look back" chart:

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Offline Chris Pook

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Re: 3 Jun 2017: Vehicle Hits Pedestrians on London Bridge
« Reply #37 on: June 05, 2017, 13:58:54 »
And then there were the professionals - now in Parliament

http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-security-bombings-idUKTRE74F31Q20110516


Quote
Here is a timeline of some of the worst bomb attacks on mainland Britain by Irish dissident groups in the last 35 years.

February 1974 - Coach carrying soldiers and families in northern England is bombed by the Irish Republican Army (IRA). Twelve people killed, 14 hurt.

October-November 1974 - Wave of IRA bombs in British pubs kills 28 people and wounds more than 200.

July 1982 - Two IRA bomb attacks on soldiers in London's royal parks kill 11 people and wound 50.

December 1983 - IRA bomb at Harrods department store kills six.

October 1984 - Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher's cabinet narrowly escapes IRA bomb that kills five people at Brighton hotel during Conservative Party's annual conference.

September 1989 - Bomb at Royal Marines Music School in Deal, southeast England, kills 11 and wounds 22.

February 1990 - Explosion at Army recruitment centre in Leicester. Two wounded.

May 1990 - Seven wounded by blast at Army Educational Service headquarters in London suburb of Eltham.

May 1990 - One soldier is killed and another wounded by car bomb in Wembley.

June 1990 - Soldier is shot dead at train station in Lichfield.

February 1991 - IRA comes close to killing Prime Minister John Major and key cabinet members in a mortar attack on Downing Street. One of three mortar bombs slammed into garden behind building, exploding within 50 feet (15 metres) of the target.

April 1992 - Huge car bomb outside Baltic Exchange in London's financial district kills three people and wounds 91.

March 1993 - Bombs in two litter bins in Warrington kill two boys aged three and 12.

April 1993 - IRA truck bomb devastates Bishopsgate area of London's financial district, killing one and wounding 44.

February 1996 - Two people die when IRA paramilitaries detonate large bomb in London's Docklands area.

March 2001 - Car bomb explodes outside BBC's London headquarters. Police say the Real IRA, a republican splinter group opposed to the IRA's cease-fire, was behind the blast. One man was wounded.

May 2011 - A warning comes from Irish dissident republicans opposed to the peace process in Northern Ireland.
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Re: 3 Jun 2017: Vehicle Hits Pedestrians on London Bridge
« Reply #38 on: June 05, 2017, 16:33:18 »
And then there were the professionals - now in Parliament

http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-security-bombings-idUKTRE74F31Q20110516
On the other hand, to show how time & choosing different ways to handle things works out, BBC Ulster airs weekly comedy podcasts ("The Blame Game" and "A Perforated Ulster"), recorded in front of live audiences, that throw a few related zingers in there from time to time. 

One joke during an issue with a historic clock that stopped in Belfast, one comedian said, "If the politician complaining was Sinn Fein, there's no way he didn't know someone who knew something about timers."  Another more recent one-liner:  How can you tell Batman must be IRA?  He wears a mask and has a a second name.
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Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: 3 Jun 2017: Vehicle Hits Pedestrians on London Bridge
« Reply #39 on: June 05, 2017, 19:09:04 »
Quote from: Jarnhamar
.

Any bets on if the attackers were 'known to the police' or had suspicious neighbours afraid to speak up?



https://www.rt.com/uk/391020-jihadi-documentary-terrorists-london/

Known to the police AND appeared on a documentary 'The Jihadist Next Door’   ::)

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Offline tomahawk6

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Re: 3 Jun 2017: Vehicle Hits Pedestrians on London Bridge
« Reply #40 on: June 05, 2017, 20:09:18 »
Plenty of concerned friends and neighbors called in to the CT hotline but t5here was never any follow up. Maybe a new broom will get elected Thursday.

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Re: 3 Jun 2017: Vehicle Hits Pedestrians on London Bridge
« Reply #41 on: June 05, 2017, 20:28:48 »
... Maybe a new broom will get elected Thursday.
Reminder:  Tories in power since May 2010 (but in a minority position all the way thru, with Labour coming in second place re:  # of seats in both 2010 and 2015).

This from Metro Police - highlights mine:
Quote
Monday, 5 June at 21:55hrs (1655 Eastern)

Specialist officers are working with families of victims and the Coroner to identify those who were killed in Saturday's attack at the appropriate time.

Family liaison officers have now deployed into all those families where we believe people to be dead.

Family liaison officers have also been deployed to support one family where we believe one person is still missing.

All of the people arrested on Sunday, 4 June, as part of this investigation have now been released without charge.

( ... )

Monday, 5 June at 18:00hrs (1300 Eastern)

The Met’s Counter Terrorism Command has released the names and photographs of two men shot dead by police following the terrorist attack on London Bridge and Borough Market on Saturday, 3 June.

While formal identification has yet to take place, detectives believe they now know the attackers’ identities. They believe two of the men are Khuram Shazad Butt and Rachid Redouane, both from Barking, east London.

All three men were confronted and shot dead by armed officers within eight minutes of the first call.


Khuram Shazad Butt, 27, (20.4.90), was a British citizen who was born in Pakistan. Rachid Redouane, 30 (31.7.86) had claimed to be Moroccan and Libyan. He also used the name Rachid Elkhdar, with a different date of birth of 31.7.91. Inquiries are ongoing to confirm the identity of their accomplice.

Detectives would like to hear from anyone who has any information about these men that may assist them with the investigation. They are particularly keen to hear about places they may have frequented and their movements in the days and hours before the attack.

At 22.08hrs on Saturday, 3 June, a hired white Renault van travelled north to south on London Bridge and mounted the pavement, which collided with pedestrians before they abandoned the vehicle.

The three attackers, armed with knives, continued into the Borough Market area, stabbing numerous people. The attackers were then confronted by the firearms officers and eight police firearms officers discharged their weapons.

Seven people were killed. Work to inform the next of kin of the victims is ongoing. This is taking time because we believe some of the victims are from abroad. Of the 48 people taken to hospital, 36 are currently being cared for in London hospitals with 18 remaining in a critical condition.

The investigation into this horrific attack is fast moving and complex as we piece together a fuller picture of what occurred. So far officers have arrested 12 people – seven women and five men - and searched six properties (four on Sunday and a further two properties today). One of the arrested men and one of the women were subsequently released.


Counter terrorism partners have dedicated intensive effort to developing and improving our counter terrorism response over recent years, as the threat has changed. The more we know, the greater the chance when an attack does happen we will have some information about at least one perpetrator. Our work necessarily involves making difficult judgements about how to prioritise the resources available to us at a time when the UK is facing a SEVERE and high tempo terrorist threat.

There are 500 current terrorism investigations, involving 3,000 current subjects of interest. A small number of the highest priority investigations involve current attack planning, and these investigations command a significant proportion of our resource. The remainder of our investigations focus on other activities relating to active support or facilitation of terrorism.

Khuram Shazad Butt was known to the police and MI5. However, there was no intelligence to suggest that this attack was being planned and the investigation had been prioritised accordingly. The other named man, Rachid Redouane, was not known.

Work is ongoing to understand more about them, their connections and whether they were assisted or supported by anyone else. We cannot say more about them at this stage.

Assistant Commissioner Mark Rowley said: “I would urge anyone with information about these men, their movements in the days and hours before the attack and the places they frequented to come forward.

“The police and our partners are doing everything we can across the country to help prevent further attacks and protect the public from harm.

“At any one time MI5 and police are conducting around 500 active investigations, involving 3,000 subjects of interest. Additionally, there are around 20,000 individuals who are former subjects of interest, whose risk remains subject to review by MI5 and its partners.

“The security and intelligence services and police have stopped 18 plots since 2013, including five since the Westminster attack two months ago.”

He added: “We would urge the public to be vigilant and to report any suspicious activity to the police by calling us in confidence on 0800 789321 or in an emergency calling 999.”

(...)
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Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: 3 Jun 2017: Vehicle Hits Pedestrians on London Bridge
« Reply #42 on: June 05, 2017, 23:00:55 »
Quote
Khuram Shazad Butt was known to the police and MI5. However, there was no intelligence to suggest that this attack was being planned


I don't know, I'm not a cop but if someone was appearing on "the Jihadist Next door" I'd assume he was planning an attack. Unless I'm using the wrong definition of jihad.
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Re: 3 Jun 2017: Vehicle Hits Pedestrians on London Bridge
« Reply #43 on: June 06, 2017, 06:31:37 »
Quote
Khuram Shazad Butt was known to the police and MI5. However, there was no intelligence to suggest that this attack was being planned
I don't know, I'm not a cop but if someone was appearing on "the Jihadist Next door" I'd assume he was planning an attack. Unless I'm using the wrong definition of jihad.
Right after the sentence you quoted, it said "the investigation had been prioritised accordingly."  Need for more investigative resources?  Fair question to ask - and I think it's going to get asked a LOT in the next while.  But if you only have what you have and need to pick/choose which cases (out of the 20K folks of some level of interest) require further digging, there's not much else one can do if there was nothing suggesting any planning.

The nitpicker in me notes the police choose to use the word "intelligence" rather than "evidence".  Does that mean if there was "evidence" (as in court standard), they might have been able to do more beforehand?  NOT second guessing the cops by any means, but wondering about the wording/process.
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Re: 3 Jun 2017: Vehicle Hits Pedestrians on London Bridge
« Reply #44 on: June 06, 2017, 10:37:32 »
And the third one's been ID'ed - this from Metro Police ...
Quote
Tuesday, 6 June at 11:40hrs (0640 Eastern)

The Met's Counter Terrorism Command has released the name and photograph of the third attacker shot dead by police following the terrorist attacks on London Bridge and at Borough Market on Saturday.

While formal identification is yet to take place, detectives believe he is 22-year-old Youssef Zaghba, from east London. The deceased's family have been informed.

He is believed to be an Italian national of Moroccan descent. He was not a police or MI5 subject of interest.

All three men involved in the attack were confronted and shot dead by armed officers within eight minutes of the first call.

The other two were named yesterday (Monday, 5 June) by detectives as:

Khuram Shazad Butt, 27 (20.4.90), from Barking, was a British citizen who was born in Pakistan; and

Rachid Redouane, 30 (31.7.86), from Barking, had claimed to be Moroccan and Libyan. He also used the name Rachid Elkhdar, with a different date of birth of 31.7.91.

Detectives would like to hear from anyone who has any information about these men that may assist them with the investigation. They are particularly keen to hear about places they may have frequented and their movements in the days and hours before the attacks.

Detectives have also arrested a man at an address in Barking this morning, Tuesday, 6 June.

[M], a 27-year-old man, was arrested under the Terrorism Act at approximately 08.05hrs today.


A search warrant is being executed at an address in Barking.

Enquiries ongoing ...
Metro Police image attached -- (L-R) Khuram Shazad Butt, Rachid Redouane and Youssef Zaghba
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Offline daftandbarmy

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Re: 3 Jun 2017: Vehicle Hits Pedestrians on London Bridge
« Reply #45 on: June 06, 2017, 11:35:53 »
Plenty of concerned friends and neighbors called in to the CT hotline but t5here was never any follow up. Maybe a new broom will get elected Thursday.

An amazing number of people will use these hotlines to 'get back' at people they don't like. The police, therefore, take ages sorting wheat from chaff ....
"The most important qualification of a soldier is fortitude under fatigue and privation. Courage is only second; hardship, poverty and want are the best school for a soldier." Napoleon

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Re: 3 Jun 2017: Vehicle Hits Pedestrians on London Bridge
« Reply #46 on: June 06, 2017, 11:47:44 »
An amazing number of people will use these hotlines to 'get back' at people they don't like. The police, therefore, take ages sorting wheat from chaff ....
In addition to the calls apparently being made 5-, 3-, and 1-year prior, the closest I could get to 'plenty' is one Italian-named woman and "an anonymous person claimed he called the CT line..."

It's always easier in hindsight. 

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Re: 3 Jun 2017: Vehicle Hits Pedestrians on London Bridge
« Reply #47 on: June 06, 2017, 13:07:17 »
for those unaware the way Armed Police works in the UK

Unless and until ALL police are armed, then it doesn't "work".

The unarmed Bobby was a nice concept, sadly now undated. Failure to adapt to current times leads to death, injury, and grieving. It is unbelievably naive and inexcusable.

There are clips on Youtube showing unarmed police running ahead of pursuing mobs yelling "Allahu Akbar" and "Run, cowards". Want to encourage these people? Show weakness liberally sprinkled with stupidity due to unreasonable adherence to tradition and hoplophobia.

Arm all police. Authorize them to carry their pistols concealed while off-duty. That is a small first step.

Offline Retired AF Guy

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Re: 3 Jun 2017: Vehicle Hits Pedestrians on London Bridge
« Reply #48 on: June 06, 2017, 19:42:46 »
Plenty of concerned friends and neighbors called in to the CT hotline but t5here was never any follow up. Maybe a new broom will get elected Thursday.

Be careful what you wish for: If Corbyn gets elected he has promised to get rid of the whole UK CT Strategy.
Years ago, fairy tales all began with, "Once upon a time." Now we know they all began with, "If I'm elected."

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Offline daftandbarmy

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Re: 3 Jun 2017: Vehicle Hits Pedestrians on London Bridge
« Reply #49 on: June 06, 2017, 23:03:43 »
Arm all police. Authorize them to carry their pistols concealed while off-duty. That is a small first step.

Not so small when you realize the deterrent effect of all police being armed (as in Northern Ireland) vs. Jihad Johnnie knowing that he has about 10 minutes to chop people up before the gunslingers stand to.

"The most important qualification of a soldier is fortitude under fatigue and privation. Courage is only second; hardship, poverty and want are the best school for a soldier." Napoleon