Author Topic: Canadian submariners leaving fleet for Down Under - iPolitics  (Read 1522 times)

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Offline Dimsum

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The ADF does Lateral Recruitment for several trades - I've always wondered why we don't do the same for our red trades?

Quote
Several Canadian submariners are heading to the other side of the world — and to new postings in a navy that recently inked one of the most lucrative deals in the world to buy a new fleet of submarines.

“We are aware that there are some Canadian submariners who have recently joined the Royal Australian Navy (RAN),” said Akshata Rao, manager of public diplomacy at the Australian High Commission. “However, we are unable to provide further details as the Australian Defence Force does not actively recruit in Canada."


https://ipolitics.ca/2017/08/07/canadian-submariners-leaving-fleet-for-down-under/
Philip II of Macedon to Spartans (346 BC):  "You are advised to submit without further delay, for if I bring my army into your land, I will destroy your farms, slay your people, and raze your city."

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Offline recceguy

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Re: Canadian submariners leaving fleet for Down Under - iPolitics
« Reply #1 on: August 11, 2017, 00:36:23 »
Can't blame them for wanting to spend time at sea, work aboard modern boats and ships, be respected by the government they work for. A country that knows how to go out and purchase what they need, no matter the source. We can't even figure out how to buy boots. They will work for a navy that knows when to cut their losses and move on. As opposed to trying to make things work aboard our outdated, second hand Upholder/ Victoria class boat doing upgrades that the boat was never meant house. IIRC, they can't even fire most modern torpedoes (someone can correct that if I'm wrong). A country that won't be held hostage by shipyards, politicians and lobbyists. One that believes in their sovereignty. We have a country with blue water on three out of four sides, but we don't have a blue water navy that can project globally without the support of our allies. Our northern sovereignty is non existent. We don't have a boat that can even get there without resupply and can't stay under the ice. CAF servicepersons are a proud bunch, we've done so much with nothing that I can't blame them. I say godspeed and good luck to every single sailor, soldier or airman that wants to go. They will still be allies and commonwealth members.
“I am a Canadian, free to speak without fear, free to worship in my own way, free to stand for what I think right, free to oppose what I believe wrong, or free to choose those who shall govern my country. This heritage of freedom I pledge to uphold for myself and all mankind.”

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Offline SeaKingTacco

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Re: Canadian submariners leaving fleet for Down Under - iPolitics
« Reply #2 on: August 11, 2017, 00:44:38 »
Can't blame them for wanting to spend time at sea, work aboard modern boats and ships, be respected by the government they work for. A country that knows how to go out and purchase what they need, no matter the source. We can't even figure out how to buy boots. They will work for a navy that knows when to cut their losses and move on. As opposed to trying to make things work aboard our outdated, second hand Upholder/ Victoria class boat doing upgrades that the boat was never meant house. IIRC, they can't even fire most modern torpedoes (someone can correct that if I'm wrong). A country that won't be held hostage by shipyards, politicians and lobbyists. One that believes in their sovereignty. We have a country with blue water on three out of four sides, but we don't have a blue water navy that can project globally without the support of our allies. Our northern sovereignty is non existent. We don't have a boat that can even get there without resupply and can't stay under the ice. CAF servicepersons are a proud bunch, we've done so much with nothing that I can't blame them. I say godspeed and good luck to every single sailor, soldier or airman that wants to go. They will still be allies and commonwealth members.

You are wrong about the torpedoes.

I have worked against our boats on several occasions. They are not an easy opponent. I would not want to have to face one on a two way range.

Offline Dimsum

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Re: Canadian submariners leaving fleet for Down Under - iPolitics
« Reply #3 on: August 11, 2017, 02:32:17 »
Can't blame them for wanting to spend time at sea, work aboard modern boats and ships, be respected by the government they work for. A country that knows how to go out and purchase what they need, no matter the source. We can't even figure out how to buy boots. They will work for a navy that knows when to cut their losses and move on. As opposed to trying to make things work aboard our outdated, second hand Upholder/ Victoria class boat doing upgrades that the boat was never meant house. IIRC, they can't even fire most modern torpedoes (someone can correct that if I'm wrong). A country that won't be held hostage by shipyards, politicians and lobbyists. One that believes in their sovereignty. We have a country with blue water on three out of four sides, but we don't have a blue water navy that can project globally without the support of our allies. Our northern sovereignty is non existent. We don't have a boat that can even get there without resupply and can't stay under the ice. CAF servicepersons are a proud bunch, we've done so much with nothing that I can't blame them. I say godspeed and good luck to every single sailor, soldier or airman that wants to go. They will still be allies and commonwealth members.

Ah yes, "grass is greener in the ADF".

The Australian military *seems* to be in a much better position because a) the politicians aren't outwardly bashing it due to geopolitical reasons, b) they've had a spending spree starting in the 2000s when they realized their forces were in need of an overhaul, and c) we don't see much Aussie media. 

"Being respected by the government they work for" is only somewhat true.  During press conferences and ANZAC Day, the military enjoys immense support (but really only for historical reasons) but other than that, no real change from the CAF - the "mile wide and inch deep" also applies to the ADF.  There are no US-style love-ins for ADF members, no discounts that I could remember for service members, etc.  I assure you that politicians are held to the same regard.

"But they have so much stuff!"  Yes, the RAAF and the RAN bought a lot of stuff - the Army did not.  Their procurement system is less constrained by "Buy Australia" mostly because Australia no longer builds aircraft, tanks, etc so there's really no option to do so.  They have a shipbuilding industry, which argued over who would get the (much over-priced) Air Warfare Destroyer.  They do "Australianize" their equipment, with predictable results but we outside of the ADF don't hear about their issues (and I won't talk about them here). 

How many of their new aircraft/ships/etc are fully serviceable at any one time?  How busy are their folks - are they burnt out?  How good is their Superannuation compared to our pension? 

I'm not going to blow sunshine up people's butts and say that we don't have our issues, but holding Australia to the gold standard is not exactly correct.  They wish they could get equipment like the US as well.  Their army, now that Afghanistan is done, is sitting around like ours.  They have their issues with sexual harassment, etc - everyone hears about the Chief of Army's speech (it's part of our OP HONOUR) but that was basically because the ADF had several high-profile scandals of that nature (none that reached Canada as far as I know) that the ADF leadership had to do something about it.  They're losing people rapidly too, or else they wouldn't be so big on lateral recruitment and providing retention bonuses to attempt to stop people leaving. 

As for boots - funny story but when I was there, the running joke is that their DEU shoes had glued soles so every parade, you see a mess of soles detached and lying there on the pavement.  The solution?  Re-glue the soles. 

All that to say, the grass isn't always greener on the other side.  However, given the National Post's fawning of the ADF a few years ago, I could totally see how it would seem that way - imagine what someone would think of the CAF if all they heard/saw of it was from something like the Maple Leaf or the CAF official sites.
+300 « Last Edit: August 11, 2017, 02:44:04 by Dimsum »
Philip II of Macedon to Spartans (346 BC):  "You are advised to submit without further delay, for if I bring my army into your land, I will destroy your farms, slay your people, and raze your city."

Reply:  "If."

Offline recceguy

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Re: Canadian submariners leaving fleet for Down Under - iPolitics
« Reply #4 on: August 11, 2017, 03:28:35 »
You are wrong about the torpedoes.

I have worked against our boats on several occasions. They are not an easy opponent. I would not want to have to face one on a two way range.

Thanks for the correction on the torpedoes. I thought I'd seen something about them wanting to upgrade but there was a problem with the tubes.

That old adage that we have worked so long with so little that we can now do anything with nothing. I have no doubt our people are mostly the reason they are so hard for you to find. I am always proud of the ways our people manage to punch above their weight in expertise, dedication and tenacity. It fits well with our "Put that damn manual away, we're going to try it this way instead" attitude.

And Tanks! to you also Dimsum.

 :salute:
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Offline ueo

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Re: Canadian submariners leaving fleet for Down Under - iPolitics
« Reply #5 on: August 11, 2017, 10:07:37 »
Oz, a gold standard, I think not. Friend, with whom I served with in the Middle East in 83/84, is still battling for the same medical entitlements I was granted on '02 in less than 7 mos. He has taken this to the ministerial level on several occasions but has yet to receive any positive results. Altho his actions have resulted in the Aus SOF community gaining some AOs being accepted as "war or war like" for medical or pension reasons. Freaking politicians!
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Offline recceguy

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Re: Canadian submariners leaving fleet for Down Under - iPolitics
« Reply #6 on: August 11, 2017, 13:50:12 »
I never called them the 'gold standard'.
“I am a Canadian, free to speak without fear, free to worship in my own way, free to stand for what I think right, free to oppose what I believe wrong, or free to choose those who shall govern my country. This heritage of freedom I pledge to uphold for myself and all mankind.”

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Offline RDBZ

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Re: Canadian submariners leaving fleet for Down Under - iPolitics
« Reply #7 on: August 12, 2017, 05:24:21 »


"Being respected by the government they work for" is only somewhat true.  During press conferences and ANZAC Day, the military enjoys immense support (but really only for historical reasons) but other than that, no real change from the CAF - the "mile wide and inch deep" also applies to the ADF.  There are no US-style love-ins for ADF members, no discounts that I could remember for service members, etc.  I assure you that politicians are held to the same regard.



Beyond noting that Australia spends a lot more on defence, and that the result of this are very apparent in the equipment fielded by the two defence forces, I won’t get involved in that debate.

In some ways Canada and Australia are very similar countries, but in many respects  they are very different.  The attitude of the general public to the military is one issue that I think fits within the latter.   Australians are generally a very questioning and cynical lot, who critically watch and at times brutally assess those elected to govern or hired to manage issues in the public interest.  But to question the need for, or unjustly tarnish the image and legacy of the defence forces, or any individual member won't get you far in Australia.

Several years ago a morning TV show, produced by a newly arrived New Zealander, almost mocked a decorated Afghan war veteran.  The careers of the presenters and producers of the that show pretty much ended there and then.  Similarly, another recently arrived journalist working for a public network questioned both ANZAC day and the motives of veterans in a fairly critical way.  Her career similarly pretty much ended there and then, without anyone suggesting she had been harshly treated or should be given a second chance. 

So no, here you won’t find and US style public adoration or British style pomp and ceremony.  They're just not in the Australian psyche.  But I think Australian generally do value their military a lot more than Canadians do, based on those I’ve met here or while visiting.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2017, 05:30:30 by RDBZ »

Online tomahawk6

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Re: Canadian submariners leaving fleet for Down Under - iPolitics
« Reply #8 on: August 12, 2017, 08:17:39 »
How does the pay stack up ? Good pay and nice climate are strong inducements.

http://www.defence.gov.au/PayAndConditions/ADF/Resources/WRA_2015.pdf

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« Last Edit: August 12, 2017, 14:15:37 by mariomike »
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Offline recceguy

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Re: Canadian submariners leaving fleet for Down Under - iPolitics
« Reply #10 on: August 12, 2017, 14:05:48 »
They are different dollar values. Don't forget the exchange.
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Re: Canadian submariners leaving fleet for Down Under - iPolitics
« Reply #11 on: August 12, 2017, 14:26:22 »
They are different dollar values. Don't forget the exchange.

They are almost at par CAD/AUD = 1.00079
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Offline recceguy

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Re: Canadian submariners leaving fleet for Down Under - iPolitics
« Reply #12 on: August 12, 2017, 17:06:14 »
They are almost at par CAD/AUD = 1.00079

Seen. Didn't check the daily rates.
“I am a Canadian, free to speak without fear, free to worship in my own way, free to stand for what I think right, free to oppose what I believe wrong, or free to choose those who shall govern my country. This heritage of freedom I pledge to uphold for myself and all mankind.”

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Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Canadian submariners leaving fleet for Down Under - iPolitics
« Reply #13 on: August 12, 2017, 22:51:50 »
You are wrong about the torpedoes.

I have worked against our boats on several occasions. They are not an easy opponent. I would not want to have to face one on a two way range.

No offence to our Dolphin wearing Canadian brethren but I don't think our sub force is that cutting edge.  Virtually Any SSK on batteries and quiet routine is hard to hear no?    I've also worked SSK, SSN etc with boats from a few different NATO and...other countries.  Kilos are LACM capable.  There are other NATO diesel boats that are quiet as frig both acoustically AND magnetically.  Torpedos are only 1 tool in the toolbelt of sub-surface platforms and torpedo only platforms are 1 dimensional in a battle space the folks who are serious about it invest in things like SLCM, LACM and the other things that make platforms like Oscar, Yasen etc things to worry about as an ASW type.  IMO. 

We also lack size of force compared to folks like the US, Russia, China.  The folks we got our current hulls from are in Astutes now.   Considerations such as these make me believe our sub force is falling behind the same way much of our other branches are when compared to countries that take their military seriously and fund it seriously.    :2c:

I am assuming you worked against them on a sea king which would have its own limitations by virtue age and stuff.  Would the fully operational Cyclone crew or Merlin crew or NH90 crew also find our boats to be equally as challenging?
« Last Edit: August 12, 2017, 23:14:25 by Eye In The Sky »
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