Author Topic: All Things Negligent Discharge (merged)  (Read 108810 times)

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Offline ArmyRick

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Re: Accidental discharges
« Reply #50 on: December 29, 2004, 14:19:26 »
ND ? I have no symphathy for the soldier's error. I have no yet let one ND slide past. Includes those above me in rank and below...
Proper weapons handling and correct drills. COMPLACENCY KILLS.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2004, 14:30:43 by ArmyRick »
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Offline Carcharodon Carcharias

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Re: Accidental discharges
« Reply #51 on: December 29, 2004, 15:51:40 »
  Was that across the board in the ADF Wes? or just a specific unit/brigade thing?

Army wide, both ARA and ARes.

Cheers,

Wes


« Last Edit: December 29, 2004, 18:18:18 by Wesley H. Allen, CD »
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Offline KevinB

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Re: Accidental discharges
« Reply #52 on: December 29, 2004, 16:11:51 »
For a while the SSF was implementing that - I know when 1RCR moved to Pet and was prepping for FYR - they were doing it.  The CO of the RCR BSL has all his empire doing it circa 94...
IT SHOULD BE A FORCE WIDE POLICY

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Offline Infanteer

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Re: Accidental discharges
« Reply #53 on: December 29, 2004, 17:27:31 »
we have had Theatre ND's by a Capt with a LAV cannon be swept under the rug (Bosnia Roto 11)

I remember that - the troops in my company were bitter because we had a very good SNCO witched-hunted by goof-balls over a "cover-up" and an errant 25mm round was ignored.

I agree with a firm but fair policy - applied to everyone equally.
"Overall it appears that much of the apparent complexity of modern war stems in practice from the self-imposed complexity of modern HQs" LCol J.P. Storr

Offline KevinB

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Re: Accidental discharges
« Reply #54 on: December 29, 2004, 17:33:06 »
And HE had TWO ND's...

 They witch hunted the CSM out of the CF - yet the OC and CO had no problems coverign up for an officer...
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Offline Carcharodon Carcharias

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Re: Accidental discharges
« Reply #55 on: December 29, 2004, 18:16:49 »
And HE had TWO ND's...

 They witch hunted the CSM out of the CF - yet the OC and CO had no problems coverign up for an officer...

Aint that the truth!. We have seen this all to often, while the 'smaller fish' get a seruous kick in the arse (or worse), its the 'bigger fish' who always seem to sneak by and end up getting a promotion.


Cheers,

Wes
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Offline Michael Dorosh

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Re: Accidental discharges
« Reply #56 on: December 29, 2004, 18:24:27 »
I don't want to say too much in open forum, but what I can say from a non-privileged point of view is that a senior warrant officer in our armouries was disciplined for an ND a couple years ago.  He was a thoroughly professional soldier whom I respected greatly.  A rumour went round the mill that the "ND" was actually the result of a muffled command on the firing range, after which said WO fired, and he was taken to task for it.

I won't go any further than that, except to say that the WO, at least in front of his company clerk, accepted the reasoning behind the disciplinary action (which I won't describe) and made no effort to duck responsibility even if the charge may have been (again, according to rumour) questionable.

The point being that NDs are certainly on people's minds; I would never have thought to apply the term to someone at the firing point after having been ordered to Load, but of course, there it is.  I was also rather proud that the WO took responsibility for their action; I can't imagine this individual ever expecting something to just get swept under the rug. 

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Offline pbi

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Re: Accidental discharges
« Reply #57 on: December 30, 2004, 04:51:55 »
Quote
Wow I can't ever imagine them trying to do that here, although it would be interesting

This was actually in our "Training for War" manual for years; I just don't think we applied it all that often. Cheers.
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Offline Infanteer

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Re: Accidental discharges
« Reply #58 on: December 30, 2004, 05:28:21 »
This was actually in our "Training for War" manual for years.

We have one of those?
"Overall it appears that much of the apparent complexity of modern war stems in practice from the self-imposed complexity of modern HQs" LCol J.P. Storr

Offline bossi

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Re: Accidental discharges
« Reply #59 on: December 30, 2004, 05:49:00 »
Well, I guess it's worth getting it right the first time ... as pointed out initially:

... Corporal Stuart Jones, 27, was fatally wounded yesterday when the vehicle hit a bump, apparently dislodging what was believed to have been a Steyr rifle ...
and
... a soldier cleaning his gun accidentally shot dead his aunt, a mother of four.

I'm very glad my instructors made me do my C9 drills over again when I screwed up - it paid off on exercise in the US when I was handed an M249 that was supposed to have been unloaded ...

Confidence counts.  Complacency kills.  Practice makes "perfect" (but we're only human)
Thus, it's essential that our equipment and drills intelligently take into account the human factor.
Back in the days of the FN, it was "yes/no" - there was no in between - it was either loaded or not.
Now we've got three choices, which I'll politely insist increases the possibility of errors.
Sometimes "less is more".  After all, isn't the first rule "treat every weapon as if it's ... ?"
(i.e. the choices have further been narrowed to one, vice ... three ...)  $0.02
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Re: Accidental discharges
« Reply #60 on: January 05, 2005, 18:28:55 »
Croatia, 94 one company commander was dismissed from his duties and sent back too Canada. That one was not put under the floor mat.

Offline Cataract Kid

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Re: Accidental discharges
« Reply #61 on: January 05, 2005, 19:03:56 »
(causing the death of a soldier would be a court martial).   
Are you stating "Fact" or "Opinion" ?.....

Offline X Royal

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Re: Accidental discharges
« Reply #62 on: January 05, 2005, 19:08:02 »
Cyprus 89/90 ND by Sgt. with 9mm pistol. Off floor and wall, minor wounds to his platoon comanders posterior. Definitely not swept under the rug or chair as the case may have been.

Offline Tango2Bravo

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Re: Accidental discharges
« Reply #63 on: January 05, 2005, 19:28:47 »
I agree that training can prevent many NDs.   I served at a Training Centre (an anonymous base near Balaclava On) where NDs with blanks were handled the same as live ones.   It is a good policy.

That being said, even highly trained soldiers can have NDs.   I've seen some NDs come up (from clearing bays) and said to myself "There but for the grace of God go I."   I would categorize ND causes as follows (not counting mechanical failures):

   (1)   lack of training (pistols are a good example, we have cut our 9 mm training back but then give them out on deployments)

   (2)   lack of attention (fatigue etc)

   (3)   confusion over orders
   
   (4)   playing with the weapon

I would say that most NDs are due to either category 1 and 2.   Training can remedy the former, while supervision and repetition can remedy the latter.   Fatigue and inattention can make even the best soldier have a very bad day.   There should be disciplinary and corrective action taken but the consequences should not be career ending.   Learn from mistakes, correct and move on.   By bringing all cases to light but handing out punishments in a non-career ending way we can encourage mistakes to be reported and give everyone the opportunity to learn.

NDs resulting from confusion over orders (and/or weapons states) are tricky.   It is a tough call but that is why we have a chain of command and a military justice system.

The last category is the most serious and should dealt with accordingly.   There is no excuse or mitigating circumstance that I can think of.   I think that they are rare in our Army but others may have war stories (I know of one and it was dealt with).   My opinion is that the first three are accidental (but still punishable) while the last is true negligence.

As an aside I have never been comfortable with the C6 and C9 clearing procedure.   It is the only one I know of that actually increases the readiness state of the weapon system as part of the unload.   There is probably no way around it but I'd be interested in the thoughts of the weapons SMEs here (as I am certainly not one!).

Cheers,

2B
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Offline Infanteer

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Re: Accidental discharges
« Reply #64 on: January 05, 2005, 19:36:44 »
As an aside I have never been comfortable with the C6 and C9 clearing procedure.  It is the only one I know of that actually increases the readiness state of the weapon system as part of the unload.  There is probably no way around it but I'd be interested in the thoughts of the weapons SMEs here (as I am certainly not one!).

How about sticking the mag back in the pistol to release the hammer (as per drill).  I never get tired of the entertainment provided by watching a rear-ech type get a fidgety, nervous, and basically do everything to avoid sticking a loaded mag into the pistol.
"Overall it appears that much of the apparent complexity of modern war stems in practice from the self-imposed complexity of modern HQs" LCol J.P. Storr

Offline KevinB

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Re: Accidental discharges
« Reply #65 on: January 05, 2005, 22:21:12 »
I trip the pistol with my finger - the mag disconect should have been  removed long ago.  IMHO this is a safety issue that the LCMM shoudl have addressed (I was told to STFU on this issue BTW  ::))

 The problem with changing the MG drills is if you dont ensure it is cocked it (the bolt) could be caught and release when the feed cover is opened.  I had that happen and a small breech explosion occured with a C6 (my fault) luckily myself, the operator and the weapon were Okay.

 
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Offline Tango2Bravo

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Re: Accidental discharges
« Reply #66 on: January 05, 2005, 23:42:10 »
Infanteer,

The end of the 9mm HP clearing drill does seem a little counter-intuitive!  I have seen clearing bays with empty 9mm magazines on chains.  I do not have stats, but I figure that the 9mm has to be a contender for most NDs "per capita".  It is not the fault of the weapon but rather that we do not train on it enough and then give it to people with bullets.  That plus the Hollywood image makes the pistol a candidate for all sorts of misfires. 

Kevin,

Seen and thanks for the info.  Most of my MG use has been in the vehicle mount (including the good old C5  :salute:).  One thing that we did to ourselves was to have different MG drills for ground and vehicle mounts.  This one has gone back and forth several times in my recollection.

Cheers and Happy New Year to all.
Well-trained, older Panzer crews are the decisive factor for success...It is preferable to start off with fewer Panzers than to set out with young crews who lack combat experience.

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Offline KevinB

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Re: Accidental discharges
« Reply #67 on: January 05, 2005, 23:54:45 »
It makes no sense for me to have the Armoured the SME for the AFV C6 and the Inf the SME's for the ground mounts...

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Offline 48Highlander

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Re: Accidental discharges
« Reply #68 on: January 06, 2005, 00:36:11 »
I trip the pistol with my finger - the mag disconect should have been   removed long ago.   IMHO this is a safety issue that the LCMM shoudl have addressed (I was told to STFU on this issue BTW   ::))
 The problem with changing the MG drills is if you dont ensure it is cocked it (the bolt) could be caught and release when the feed cover is opened.   I had that happen and a small breech explosion occured with a C6 (my fault) luckily myself, the operator and the weapon were Okay.

    Ok, I'm a little confused over this.  I keep hearing the term "breech explosion" and as near as I can tell, it's a holdover from the .50cal and other blowback operated weapons.  The C6 and C9 firing pin cannot strike a round unless the bolt is fully locked, at which point the round is in the chamber.  Once the bolt is locked and the pin strikes the round, the explosion occurs within the chamber, and since the bolt is LOCKED it cannot shoot back and release any gasses.  Gas is directed forward, through the barrel, and some is redirected back through the gas mechanism.  When that gas pushes on the piston, ONLY THEN is the bolt unlocked and the chamber exposed.  So at no point in the entire cycle is there a chance for hot gasses and/or bits of carbon/metal to come out of the chamber.

    So the point of that long winded explanation is this:  where exactly is the danger?  With a blowback operated weapon (eg. .50 cal) you'd get carbon and gas shooting up in your face, but theoreticaly with the C6 and C9 you should be able to fire the weapon quite safely with the feed cover open.

    And sorry for going off topic, I know this doesn't really fall into the realm of ND's but it's something that's been bugging me for a long time.  I'd appreciate it if anyone can enlighten me.

    Also, as far as the C6 and the C9 being the only weapons where you have to increase the readiness state of the weapon during the unload....as long as your finger isn't on the thrigger, you don't have a problem :)  You should be treating your weapon as if it's ready to fire at all times anyway, so it should make no difference if you increase the readiness state.  It all comes down to good drills, and that depends on proper training and lots of repetition/experience.

Offline CFN. Orange

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Re: Accidental discharges
« Reply #69 on: January 06, 2005, 04:29:34 »
WRT AD/NDs it has been my experience that these occur, predominately, as a result of operator error( ie complacency,inattention,lack of skill, etc) as opposed to firearms malfunction.


Well im glad to see someone acknowledging the possibility of firearms malfunction. Infact over the past summer I went with a bunch of fellow gun plumbers to respond to AD/ND's 2 out of the 3 times we went it was actually firearms malfunction. Not always the operator at fault. But I deffinatley agree there needs to be better training in regards to safteying the weapon that you are using and keeping the trigger clear when there is no need to use it.
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Offline Love793

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Re: Accidental discharges
« Reply #70 on: January 06, 2005, 08:34:56 »
It makes no sense for me to have the Armoured the SME for the AFV C6 and the Inf the SME's for the ground mounts...



The Coax C-6 is a different barrel, and there are different drills.  We can't just reach fwd and change the gas regulator.  Or as in the new barrel, unload, change barrels, allow to cool, strip and change regulator repeat as necesarry.  What I never agreed with on the Coax was the Half Load, Load, and Make Safe.  These drills I found confusing and unsafe.
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Offline Recce41

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Re: Accidental discharges
« Reply #71 on: January 06, 2005, 12:56:16 »
 AD/NDs came up only in the 90s. I mean hard. Before, no one really cared. My father told me of more ADs happening in the Army wayback when. It was the different train of though. IT's a AD or ND. A AD is just that Accidental . A ND is negligent. We are all human, things happen. Remember the old SMG. Dam* all you had to do is look at it and it went off. The old Cougar foot firing pedal, some times you just sneezed and it fired, if the cable was too tight.
 Inf, your close on the rd going off. It is because it is a hold over from the 50/30 Cal. The were rearward feed. The bolt would pickup a new rd going to the rear. The C6/C9 is a forward feed. It picks up ard when it goes forward.

 Kevin B, Armour drills are different, than Inf drills. That is why, you have an Armour SME and INF SME. Remember the Armour way is to keep the veh fighting. You can use the main gun without the Co ax. Also it has a firing circuit and the Inf has a 2 and 3 man C6 team.

Love All C6s have the same gas reg. There is nothing confusing. Half load is just to put the damn rds on the feed tray. Load you **** the thing. Make safe.  put it on safe. In vehs the (LEO) Loader would put the weapon on safe, and switch the loader's box to safe. The gunner would switch the laser off and finish his  gunners drill. In a Cougar, the CC would just put it on safe, the Coyote the CC would put it on safe and the gunner would put his CDA to safe. TOOOO EASY.
 
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Offline Love793

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Re: Accidental discharges
« Reply #72 on: January 06, 2005, 13:10:07 »
Recce 41,

All C-6s NOW have the same gas regulators.  As far as the drills go, the point I was making was the 2 different drills cause some confusion.   I still see people whom where taught C-6 on the QL3 Armd preform the Coax drills when on a conventional range.  The dismounted drill to load is; Open the Feed cover, place the belt on and close the feed cover.  Where as the Coax load involves readying the weapon.  The Make Safe for Dismounted role is; unload followed by a load, again where as the coax way is simply placing the wpn on safe.  The confusion does occur, and I feel it's unsafe.
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Offline Tango2Bravo

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Re: Accidental discharges
« Reply #73 on: January 06, 2005, 16:11:17 »
Turret drills do need to be a bit different due to the issue of hydralics and stabilization.  You don't want to mess with the feed cover on the coax (especially in the Leopard) when in stab on the move as all sorts of bad things can happen.  My apologies to all for taking this thread down a sidetrack about MG drills. 

Cheers,

2B
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 - Verbal report of Gen Balck 1943

Offline KevinB

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Re: Accidental discharges
« Reply #74 on: January 06, 2005, 18:12:47 »
Yes but the problem is the 031's also have the LAV...
  Our MG drills are now two different drills - on the same gun.

 
 On firearm malfunction:
I shoot a lot (in excess of 20K rounds / year - not counting beltfed fun)  I have seen two AD's (I consider the mechanical breakdown not a ND) form this - one with a C9 where a solider was shot in Afghanistan (the saftey button retainign spring thingy had snapped and got caught between the breechblock and the sear... then released when the weapon was moved), and once on a range in Canada where a C7 that was recently ATI'd had so little hammer/disconnect contact it went off.  Two area that need to be addressed with this issue - both troops and Weapon techs need to be trained (or retrained in some respects) on what to look for while doing weapons maintenance or inspections.  Weapons over the end of their service life have to be retired - not just sent back with a serviceable tag until they fail and cause death or injury.


Perfect Practice makes perfect - we need the weapons we use overseas in all of out training (pistols, shotguns, carbines etc.) and we need to use them a lot more than we do.

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