Author Topic: Islam and Western Society  (Read 200698 times)

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Offline CheersShag

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Re: Irradication of Islam
« Reply #50 on: September 10, 2004, 10:07:32 »
Quote
Have you ever contacted a local news outlet

Been done, trust me if you folks can think of it, I've done it. Persistence doesn't work. Our local paper prints the most inane garbage about student councils from highschools (I should know, I was in one) but they will not print stuff that could be controversial. The news channel is about the same, nothing controversial. My counterparts in Toronto have done the same with larger papers and larger stations, no response thusfar. There is a huge group of us across North America, so chances are we've tried it all at some point.

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Re: Irradication of Islam
« Reply #51 on: September 10, 2004, 11:59:14 »
I was just wondering is this a pre shooting George Wallace, or a post shooting George Wallace who is asking about racist removal of a religion ?
R2

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Re: Irradication of Islam
« Reply #52 on: September 10, 2004, 12:18:01 »
Wrong George Wallace, the question should be the pre-drink George or the post-drink one.
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Offline George Wallace

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Re: Irradication of Islam
« Reply #53 on: September 10, 2004, 12:28:20 »
Bruce

Don't let her 'witticisms' cause us to side track our discussion.  There are some interesting points being put forward and possibly a solution or two to some of the dilemmas being faced.

GW
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Offline CheersShag

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Re: Irradication of Islam
« Reply #54 on: September 10, 2004, 13:07:09 »
I think perhaps a solution to the whole problem is education on both sides.
It's simplistic, remove the mystery surrounding the "other" side. Proper education too, not the education you get from the telly or the internet.

Offline George Wallace

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Re: Irradication of Islam
« Reply #55 on: September 10, 2004, 13:11:46 »
I believe that is only part of the overall solution.  It would have been the solution had it been done prior to Terrorist events.  Now we must do more.  It is the stepping block by which we will start putting an end to 'these terrorists', but we must also unite the community at large to stand up to them.

GW
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Offline Lance Wiebe

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Re: Irradication of Islam
« Reply #56 on: September 10, 2004, 13:36:04 »
I agree.  Education is a key, but just one key, and there are many locks.

Muslims are taught from youth (in the extremist schools) that their religion is the only true religion, all others are non-believers.  It is not a crime to kill a non believer, in their eyes.  They are also taught that the west, in particular the US, is the greatest threat to the true believers. 

And we feel somewhat intimidated.  They do not fear death, they do not succomb to threats.  We deal well with countries that respond to threats, we do not deal well with this crowd.  No matter what defenses, they will strive to find a weakness.  And if some die, well, thats OK.  Because it is for the greater good of Islam.

I think that this is what George is really referring to.  We will not, cannot, change their beliefs.  The extremists will always be plotting to hurt the west.  The question remains, will the killing of all of the extremists, worldwide, the only solution?  Is it even possible?  Could we even survive what will be a very ugly war?  What if we lose?
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Offline George Wallace

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Re: Irradication of Islam
« Reply #57 on: September 10, 2004, 16:05:15 »
Che is right about Education and as Lance says it is only one key to the many locks that are 'imprisoning' us.   There are programs that are being implimented, one of which is "Right To Play" and a few programs here in Canada, where differing factions are sending their children here to spend weeks at "Peace Camps" or the sort.   Irish Catholic and Protestant children have been hosted as have Jewish and Palistinian children at some of these camps and the end results have been quite positive.   These programs are working to educate and bring opposing factions together before the hatred festers too much to be changed.   However, we need people dedicated and financially funded, privately or by the state, to run such programs.   The will must be there.   Both opposing factions must have the courage to try and make these programs work.   Courage to stand up to and deny the radical Fundamentalists the spread of their hate and terror is required also.   Strong policing and monitoring of illegal activities must be put into place.   S_Baker's point number 4 has to be resolved.

Not easy, but as we have seen in a few posts here, ideals can be changed.   



GW
« Last Edit: September 10, 2004, 16:09:07 by George Wallace »
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Re: Irradication of Islam
« Reply #58 on: September 10, 2004, 16:48:24 »
Would someone of the Muslim faith please enlighten me on Jihad? Don't take this the wrong way, but it seems to me that its kind of hard to claim that your faith is a peaceful one when you have rules and guidlines to a holy war. Perhapse Che could reply, I would prefer to get it from someone who is in the faith rather than a person who has read a book.

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Re: Irradication of Islam
« Reply #59 on: September 10, 2004, 18:35:30 »
OK I couldn't get all the way throught reading the posts so if i repeat someonses.. let me know.   I believe that the action to take against certain people. being terrorists and "evildoers" is  to eliminate them... I HAvE ABSOLUTELY NO reason to say that ANY religion should be depleted... I do however believe that Terrorists should be delt witha ccordingly... I say that when the government gets RELIABLE information that terrorists are in a certain location they should have a force that goes in and TACTICALLY eliminates the TERRORISTS ONLY NOT CIVILLIANS and so thereing meaning that the debriefing will need to include detailed pictures or at least realy good photos of the targets and then when the team gets to the Target Destination they wil eliminate ONLY the terrorists.. allowing this to help eliminate the current problem with terrorism.....


Of course there is also the other side that many people believe that if one terrorist didnt exist.. another would be there instead... such as (only in example)  If Hitler were never exitent.. then someone else would have done what he did... there is no actual way to kill off the entire enemy... except to destroy the planet but unless we finally finish making Mars suitable for living... that wont hapen....  either way i hope this was helpful and that noone thinks i am some sort of weirdo

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Offline CheersShag

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Re: Irradication of Islam
« Reply #60 on: September 10, 2004, 18:41:32 »
I can direct anyone who wants to two excellent books that can open up your horizons if you are interested.
The first is the cornerstone of educational literature where the middle east (more accurately the "Near East") is concerned, it is called "A history of the Arab Peoples." by Albert Hourani, this book has been used for decades, definetly the definitive research book where the Arab peoples are concerned.
Another excellent book is written by Ira M. Lapidus, it is called "A history of Islamic Societies."   I am currently studying under Mr. Lapidus' protege here in Halifax, both are brilliant men.
Reading either of these books in their entirety or merely in sections, is certainly a start to understanding and seperating myth from fact in Near east/Muslim/Arab history. So I'd reccomend them to those who are very keen on bridging the gap.

As for Jihad, perhaps one of the most misused terms by ....everyone, haha. It has developed into a word with two meanings. At it's root, it simply means "Struggle" in the context of faith, so a "Struggle of Faith."

 Firstly is the more radical meaning which is the physical Jihad we see on CNN..need I explain more? You know, AK waving, Qur'an shouting, god praising, passionate.(There is nothing wrong with the latter 2)
This meaning is the one you find both terrorists..and those who dislike Islam using. It makes a non-believer a legitimate target of "struggle.' It's quite easy to see where it has become completely bastardized. Armed struggle was the next meaning, and eventually the word Jihad was used by Muslims going to war to expand Muslim territory in the early days of Islam. (After the 8th Century AD..roughly)

The second meaning, the one I ascribe to. It's a more mystical definition that rejects violence, whereby you withdraw from the concerns of the world   in order to achieve spiritual depth. It's a more philisophic meaning and it's the one I prefer. The struggle is a more mental one against the many temptations Muslims face in everyday life. It prizes spiritual, mental depth and strong character in a struggle waged against that which would come between oneself and God.

Folks I'll say it again, it's very important that you don't take this for gospel, the best thing you can do is to talk to a learned Muslim, best place to start is a university or any othe class. They might even say I'm wrong, lord knows I could very well be, but this is what I've grown up knowing.
To be honest; The word "Jihad" I never heard until fairly recently..like late 90's and it was from CNN not from my family and not at my mosque.

Offline Infanteer

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Re: Eradication of Islam
« Reply #61 on: September 10, 2004, 19:26:54 »
Good post Che; education is often the most powerful weapon out there.

I wandered around Southern Spain for a week on my leave, exploring the Islamic remains of what was Al-Andalus (Andalusia).   I can tell you one thing, the Islamic cultural monuments left behind were a fascinating part of the story of human civilization.   The culture of Islamic Spain was both brutally violent and amazingly productive at the same time, a trend that seems to characterize most human societies and civilizations.   I am not to sure of the accuracy, but check out this page and follow the links on the side to get a better understanding of how truly complex the Islamic world is:

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/intro/islam.htm

Many seem to ascribe to the notion that the followers of Islam fall under one big monolith of Western-hating thought.   Those that do are guilty of painting with a broad-brush; this is the same line of thought as the Cold War belief that all Communism was controlled by the Kremlin.   Besides being absolutely incorrect, these kinds of beliefs show both a lack of understanding of the cultures (not just religious) involved and can act as a limitation on the strategic options available to one when approaching the problem.

Bottom line; the acts of terrorists in Beslan and now in Jakarta were terrible.   However, they do not represent a downward spiral for both Islam or those who oppose terrorism.   They are simply part of the human experience; violence like this is part and parcel of human nature and sometimes religion happens to be the motivator.   The power of the Islamic faith to inspire such violence in many who adhere to the religion is no different then the social icons that led Aztecs to sacrifice human beings on alters, Tamurlane to pile up human skulls in conquered cities, "rational" modern Germans to murder 6 million Jews with frightening efficiency, or Americans to flatten most of SouthEast Asia from the comfort of a million dollar plane in the name of democracy.

Wiping out a ideology, a religion, or any other social icon will do no good, as others will only take its place.   We must learn to defend ourselves as best as possible (as I said, knowledge may be the strongest weapon) and be prepared to fight if we must.   We must understand that as humans we will be in a state of constant conflict; it is only in our nature.   If you don't believe me, find a year, one year in history, that experienced no war or conflict on the planet Earth.

Perhaps, instead of looking at the Crusades as an analogy of the troubles we face, we should look to the History of the hashsashin[/u], the violent cult of radical Isma'ilis that were feared for their asymmetrical, murderous raids during the Middle Ages (leaving us the term assassin.   The Hashsashin proved such a problem that they were destroyed in Syria by the ruling Islamic power in the Middle East.

http://i-cias.com/e.o/assassins.htm

PS: I had to change the title to the correct spelling...5 pages and no one picked it up.

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Offline gozonuts

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Re: Eradication of Islam
« Reply #62 on: September 10, 2004, 21:26:13 »


PS: I had to change the title to the correct spelling...5 pages and no one picked it up.

I noticed, and it bothered me so much I couldn't sleep the last few nights, thanks!!!!
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Re: Eradication of Islam
« Reply #63 on: September 10, 2004, 23:43:55 »
That last post was a joke! I thought I would clarify that as the powers that be don't like certain comments!
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Offline Infanteer

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Re: Eradication of Islam
« Reply #64 on: September 11, 2004, 00:15:43 »
...another idiot bites the dust.

Anyways, back to our regularly scheduled programming.
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Offline muskrat89

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Re: Eradication of Islam
« Reply #65 on: September 11, 2004, 12:12:12 »
Just what we've been asking for!  (I think)

http://worldtribune.com/worldtribune/breaking_12.html


Quote
Muslim group takes responsibility for 9-11: 'We are so sorry'
 


Special to World Tribune.com
www.freemuslims.org
Friday, September 10, 2004

We Are So Sorry for 9-11
This September 11 marks the third unforgettable anniversary of the worst mass murder in American history.

After September 11, many in the Muslim world chose denial and hallucination rather than face up to the sad fact that Muslims perpetrated the 9-11 terrorist acts and that we have an enormous problem with extremism and support for terrorism. Many Muslims, including religious leaders, and â Å“intellectualsâ ? blamed 9-11 on a Jewish conspiracy and went as far as fabricating a tale that 4000 Jews did not show up for work in the World Trade Center on 9-11. Yet others blamed 9-11 on an American right wing conspiracy or the U.S. Government which allegedly wanted an excuse to invade Iraq and â Å“stealâ ? Iraqi oil.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As to apologizing, we will no longer wait for our religious leaders and "intellectuals" to do the right thing. Instead, we will start by apologizing for 9-11 . . .
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 

After numerous admissions of guilt by Bin Laden and numerous corroborating admissions by captured top level Al-Qaida operatives, we wonder, does the Muslim leadership have the dignity and courage to apologize for 9-11?
If not 9-11, will we apologize for the murder of school children in Russia?

If not Russia, will we apologize for the train bombings in Madrid, Spain?

If not Spain, will we apologize for suicide bombings in buses, restaurants and other public places?

If not suicide bombings, will we apologize for the barbaric beheadings of human beings?

If not beheadings, will we apologize for the rape and murder of thousands of innocent people in Darfour?

If not Darfour, will we apologize for the blowing up of two Russian planes by Muslim women?

What will we apologize for?

What will it take for Muslims to realize that those who commit mass murder in the name of Islam are not just a few fringe elements?

What will it take for Muslims to realize that we are facing a crisis that is more deadly than the Aids epidemic?

What will it take for Muslims to realize that there is a large evil movement that is turning what was a peaceful religion into a cult?

Will Muslims wake up before it is too late? Or will we continue blaming the Jews and an imaginary Jewish conspiracy? The blaming of all Muslim problems on Jews is a cancer that is destroying Muslim society from within and it must stop.

Muslims must look inward and put a stop to many of our religious leaders who spend most of their sermons teaching hatred, intolerance and violent jihad. We should not be afraid to admit that as Muslims we have a problem with violent extremism. We should not be afraid to admit that so many of our religious leaders belong behind bars and not behind a pulpit.

Only moderate Muslims can challenge and defeat extremist Muslims. We can no longer afford to be silent. If we remain silent to the extremism within our community then we should not expect anyone to listen to us when we complain of stereotyping and discrimination by non-Muslims; we should not be surprised when the world treats all of us as terrorists; we should not be surprised when we are profiled at airports.

Simply put, not only do Muslims need to join the war against terror, we need to take the lead in this war.

As to apologizing, we will no longer wait for our religious leaders and â Å“intellectualsâ ? to do the right thing. Instead, we will start by apologizing for 9-11.

We are so sorry that 3000 people were murdered in our name. We will never forget the sight of people jumping from two of the highest buildings in the world hoping against hope that if they moved their arms fast enough that they may fly and survive a certain death from burning.

We are sorry for blaming 9-11 on a Jewish or right wing conspiracy.

We are so sorry for the murder of more than three hundred school children and adults in Russia.

We are so sorry for the murder of train passengers in Spain.

We are so sorry for all the victims of suicide bombings. We are so sorry for the beheadings, abductions, rapes, violent Jihad and all the atrocities committed by Muslims around the world.

We are so sorry for a religious education that raised killers rather than train people to do good in the world. We are sorry that we did not take the time to teach our children tolerance and respect for other people.

We are so sorry for not rising up against the dictators who have ruled the Muslim world for decades.

We are so sorry for allowing corruption to spread so fast and so deep in the Muslim world that many of our youth lost hope.

We are so sorry for allowing our religious leaders to relegate women to the status of forth class citizens at best and sub-humans at worse.

We are so sorry.

For more information visit our website at: www.freemuslims.org.





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Re: Eradication of Islam
« Reply #66 on: September 11, 2004, 14:09:31 »
Reading that site made one thing hit home, the trust in this  "conflict" is broken. What I mean by that is I'm always saying that most Muslims are just like you and me, they just want to live in peace and raise a family. Yet as I'm glancing at this website my eyes keep going back to the "donate" butten and I wonder just where the money goes.
What should be a joy to read instead just makes me think that if I did donate am I helping to train the next suicide bomber?  In a way these *&^%$ # have already won as I must realize that even in something good, I'm looking to see where the sucker punch is coming from.
I've always wanted the "moderate" Muslim to speak out and here is a seemingly good example and yet I read but don't really believe it. Damn them!
Well I won't be beaten on this nor will my children, my oldest daughters best friend's family came here from Lebanon and I couldn't tell you if thier Muslim or Christian and I don't care.
So to those who would try to break my chains of trust in the basic good of man, you can kiss my............
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Offline Torlyn

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Re: Eradication of Islam
« Reply #67 on: September 11, 2004, 15:55:26 »
That last post was a joke! I thought I would clarify that as the powers that be don't like certain comments!

Sigh...  The powers that be don't like flippant, child-like comments.  They'll be the first to tell you that I'm not exactly welcomed here with open arms, but I don't spout off useless rhetoric, and try to couch it by pretending it's a "serious" question.  The easiest way for you to get honest answers is to ask honest questions.  Comments like this don't endear you to anyone.  And before you say that's not why you're here, fine.  Perhaps you should think about asking for information elsewhere.

T.

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Re: Eradication of Islam
« Reply #68 on: September 12, 2004, 00:02:20 »
Quote
Muslim group takes responsibility for 9-11: 'We are so sorry' 

Maybe, just maybe, this is the beginning of the proper, moderate and responsible members of the Muslim faith saying "we have had enough, time to act."

That would be great as I have no doubt that it is a few bad apples acting terrably, that ruin it for the the greater majority.

Slim :)
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Re: Eradication of Islam
« Reply #69 on: September 30, 2004, 08:48:56 »

I have never seen 2 muslims on TV have a go at each others throats about whose interpretations is correct.
That would be fun!   >:D

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Re: Eradication of Islam
« Reply #70 on: September 30, 2004, 09:14:10 »

I have never seen 2 muslims on TV have a go at each others throats about whose interpretations is correct.
That would be fun! >:D

I would like to see both sides debated in a sensible manner, but to see them attack each other would be counter productive and stupid. Only trailer trash would watch for the Jerry Springer value. To relish a physical confrontation by these two sides puts you in no better stead than the people cutting off hostages heads. It would be neither fun nor entertaining. Grow up and keep your redneck comments to yourself. If you have nothing civilized to add to what has been a decent discussion, please leave. The adults here don't need to be bothered with your childish comments. This is your one and only warning.

For everyone else, we've managed to keep the discussion reasonable, please continue.
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Re: Eradication of Islam
« Reply #71 on: September 30, 2004, 10:47:06 »
Ahmen to that recce guy. Let's try and keep a mature dialogue about such a touchy subject.

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Re: Eradication of Islam
« Reply #72 on: September 30, 2004, 21:33:46 »
I am reminded of a saying: All terrorists are muslim but not all muslims are terrorists. These words are true, you cant punish an entire people for the actions of a few. That said on a topic close to home the situation in Israel, I have lost sympathy with the palestinian people. One can debate that not all of them are terrorists and that some of them genuinly want peace. When the terrorist organizations have used children (15 yrs old) and women as walking bombs, they lost my sympethy for the women and children, when I saw a picture of a 7 year old in white clothes and the green hamas bandana with a bomb strapped to his chest surrounded by his mentors, you lose the right to say that your children have been killed. There is six degrees of seperation in the occupied territories and if you yourself are not a terrorist you are directly related to one or know someone who is directly related to them. To the people of the Islamic faith on this forum please forgive my rant, this is not against you or your faith, but rather Arab extremists. For the people who are in the occupied territories who do not hate Israelis and want to blow themselves up to kill their "enemy" my prayers and best wishes go out to you, but to the remainder, the people who go to rallies with their kids and wives and teach their children to kill innocent people may God or Allah or whoever have mercy on you, because if I was there there is not a chance in **** I would.


Mod Edit-Please do not circumvent the censor system.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2004, 23:01:06 by Che »

Offline Torlyn

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Re: Eradication of Islam
« Reply #73 on: September 30, 2004, 22:23:22 »
I am reminded of a saying: All terrorists are muslim but not all muslims are terrorists. These words are true, you cant punish an entire people for the actions of a few.

Regardless of the rhetoric of the rest of your statement, the above caused me the most problems, as it is wrong.  Timothy Mcveigh was not muslim.  Weebo Ludwig is not muslim.  Painting muslims as you have done with that statement is both uninformed and bordering on racist, however, I will give you the benefit of the doubt and hope that you can clarify this statement somewhat.  The hypocracy of your writing is inherent, I'm hoping you can see it and recognise it.  You say you can't punish a group of people for the actions of a few, and yet you go on to say how we should treat ALL of them.  Please.  Informed statements, or at least those that don't contradict themselves would be accepted better.

T

Offline CheersShag

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Re: Eradication of Islam
« Reply #74 on: September 30, 2004, 22:59:17 »
I'd like to invite anyone with questions about Islam to PM me,
It's my job to spread the word I suppose, I won't try and convert you. But if you feel a particular passage from the Qur'an is evil, or you would like something clarified in general about the beliefs etc. of Muslims, fire me off a PM.
I was thinking of starting a thread, sort of a FAQ, since there are so many misconceptions and bastardizations of texts that you find.
But this little post oughtta do it.