Author Topic: Chinese Military,Political and Social Superthread  (Read 973958 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline PikaChe

  • I'm not a communist. I just work for them
  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *
  • 37,395
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 3,581
  • Pika la Revolución!
Re: The Chinese Military,Political and Social Superthread
« Reply #50 on: March 08, 2005, 18:41:25 »
IMHO, first China definitely wouldn't "shoot its bolt" with 700 missiles, nor would it be a simple matter of any coalition "counterattacking" and pushing China out of one of its provinces. This is a message to Taiwan, the US and Japan in no uncertain terms, thus "putting the ball in their court" so to speak. Think of it from the Chinese perspective versus ours for a minute, this is a province of theirs that has special status like Hong Kong, Shanghai, etc. I believe the Chinese are saying to Taiwan, accept it, (of course there is the big or else included in that!).
The question is 'Is Taiwan really a mere province of PRC?'

I don't know about you, but I'd rather support a democratic regime than a communist one.
Quote
Don't forget China is a regional power, but considers itself "middle earth" when it comes to any Asian, NE Asian politics. Thus it will always react to what it considers its national and strategic interests. The question is what should we do about it, if anything?
Or do we let aggression go unpunished?

However, there is another equation to this problem; what about North Korea? If China does draw US and Japanese involvement, North Korea might just decide to go for broke and invade South Korea.

Offline oldboy

  • New Member
  • **
  • 0
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 43
Re: The Chinese Military,Political and Social Superthread
« Reply #51 on: March 08, 2005, 18:57:31 »
We should never let aggression go unpunished IMO, but correct me if I am wrong Canada doesn't recognize Taiwan in the same manner as the US, Japan, Aust?  So, other than issuing condemnations, what do you think our govt would do?

Regarding North Korea, I agree it is definitely a factor, and you come up with a logical conclusion.  It always continues to be a threat to NE Asia stabilization.  So how do you seriously mitigate that threat while trying to assist our southern neighbour in resolving a Taiwan "situation" for lack of a better word?


Offline IST Joeschmo

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • 2,051
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 795
  • Getting 1's and 0's to flow...
Re: The Chinese Military,Political and Social Superthread
« Reply #52 on: March 08, 2005, 19:17:52 »
If North Korea entered the fray, I believe we would have a true WW3 on our hands.

I have heard from people who've lived in Taiwan that it's beautiful and deserves it's own independence, which I believe they do. But, if they really want to get pushy and tell China to go suck a d*ck, we seriously better start practicing our marksmanship principles...

Could any of you folks honestly see anyone simply not doing ANYTHING and just watching it happen like we all know what's going on in Africa? I doubt the world would stand for it. And let's imagine one step further, not only a pseudo China-North Korean alliance, but Russia joins in also. What do we have then?

A sh*tstorm!!!

IMHO that is...

 :-\
"When I retire, I want to become a gay Hollywood actor, they always make more money!"... My old boss's plans ;)

Offline Ex-fusilier

  • Member
  • ****
  • -100
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 149
Re: The Chinese Military,Political and Social Superthread
« Reply #53 on: March 08, 2005, 19:36:19 »
Definitely better work on your principles of marksmanship if we get sent to repel the Red Chinese.....with an Army/Navy/Air Force of an est. 100 million, and approx 150 million in reserve, we may be a bit outnumbered.  Let's see, around 50,000 in the CF...that equates to a ratio of 5000 to 1, so I certainly hope you're a better shot than I.

Offline Cdn Blackshirt

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 10,600
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 1,321
Re: The Chinese Military,Political and Social Superthread
« Reply #54 on: March 08, 2005, 20:02:15 »
I think we should allow continued unfettered access to our markets to these rotten totalitarian pricks so they can use their newfound wealth to expand their armed forces and bully their democratic neighbour.

I find the fact that corporate interests are overriding fundamental principles in this case to be truly pathetic....



Matthew     >:(

P.S.  I intentionally have not bought Chinese products (and yes I check labels) for the last two years because this bugs me so much.
IMPORTANT - 'Blackshirt' is a reference to Nebraska Cornhuskers Football and not naziism.   National Champions '70, '71, '94, '95 and '97.    Go Huskers!!!!

Offline oyaguy

  • Jr. Member
  • ***
  • 0
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 94
Re: The Chinese Military,Political and Social Superthread
« Reply #55 on: March 08, 2005, 20:43:04 »
I think China's latest move, is what the forum suggests, sabre rattling.

Still, if it came to a shooting contest, even the US might have to take a backseat.

The way the US has financing their budgets, the last few years, could bite them where it hurts when it comes to something like Taiwan, for the reasons the Chinese could precipitate a debt crisis by dumping all the US treasury bonds China has bought to keep their currency low.

I personally think the greatest challenge facing the Chinese {mainlanders}, is there will come a day of reckoning of how the country should be governed. The Chinese aren't blind to democracy. It will be a delicate balancing act for China's leaders, as they want to liberalize the economy, without giving up their powers. Generally the liberalizing of the economy, will lead to the liberalizing of the politics.

One can hope.
Viator Via Veritatis {Travel by Way of the Truth}

Offline PikaChe

  • I'm not a communist. I just work for them
  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *
  • 37,395
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 3,581
  • Pika la Revolución!
Re: The Chinese Military,Political and Social Superthread
« Reply #56 on: March 08, 2005, 21:18:28 »
I think China's latest move, is what the forum suggests, sabre rattling.

Still, if it came to a shooting contest, even the US might have to take a backseat.

The way the US has financing their budgets, the last few years, could bite them where it hurts when it comes to something like Taiwan, for the reasons the Chinese could precipitate a debt crisis by dumping all the US treasury bonds China has bought to keep their currency low.
And considering how much of US market is tied to China...
Quote
I personally think the greatest challenge facing the Chinese {mainlanders}, is there will come a day of reckoning of how the country should be governed. The Chinese aren't blind to democracy. It will be a delicate balancing act for China's leaders, as they want to liberalize the economy, without giving up their powers. Generally the liberalizing of the economy, will lead to the liberalizing of the politics.

One can hope.

Well, the Chinese are pretty good keeping populace quiet.

Offline oyaguy

  • Jr. Member
  • ***
  • 0
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 94
Re: The Chinese Military,Political and Social Superthread
« Reply #57 on: March 08, 2005, 21:36:42 »
Well, the Chinese are pretty good keeping populace quiet.

So far, but China isn't say... a North Korea which doesn't give a damn about nothing. China is trying to modernize and open the dam of capitalism, just a little... hopefully without sweeping away the old power structures, but eventually somethings got to give. Rarely does democracy come before capitalism {successfully mind you}, but democracy almost always, comes after capitalism.

I honestly think something like Tianamen Square will happen again, and again and again, and eventually it will take down the government. This could happen tomorrow, ten years from now, or another 20 years from now. This is assuming the Chinese government doesn't do anything to liberalize the government.

 {
And considering how much of US market is tied to China...

Actually that is a mark against China. China is running up the trade surpluses against the US. So if trade just dried up... it would mean MacDonalds would have to look elsewhere for their happy meal toys, and China would have a hole in their budget with no real means of fixing it. A lot of the goods the Chinese export aren't exactly necessary, and can be gotten elsewhere.
Viator Via Veritatis {Travel by Way of the Truth}

Offline daniel h.

  • Banned
  • Member
  • *
  • 0
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 159
Re: The Chinese Military,Political and Social Superthread
« Reply #58 on: March 09, 2005, 00:11:22 »
Short answer: it depends.

China could launch a gigantic attack under a wave of up to 700 medium range missiles, which would overwhelm the immediate defenses, but also shoot China's bolt. China would have to be very confident of a political or military environment which would preclude outside intervention.

The coalition of the willing would most likely be the United States and Japan, with other interested nations ranging from India to Australia, depending on how they see the Chinese threat. If China shoots its bolt, the coalition forces will basically counterattack and push the Chinese out. If China tries to maintain a reserve, the Tiawanese will have the ability to keep fighting as well. Either way it would be very messy.

Would Mr Dithers support Tiawan against China? Canada's record against naked agression hasn't been to sterling lately....China also sees Canada as a resource base; buying up oil and mineral rights and seeing us as "hewers of wood and drawers of water" for the 21rst century.


Of course China sees us as that, and doesn't that piss you in the Canadian military off?

I used to think Canadian leaders were just stupid. Then I realized that in a world where many transnational corporations are worth more than some countries, effective democracy was simply not possible.

I looked for a link to prove this and couldn't find it, but apparently American global tobacco company Philip Morris is worth more than the economy of Norway and the economy Saudi Arabia. [really]

How is democracy possible when private, undemocratic companies have more wealth than countries?

Offline daniel h.

  • Banned
  • Member
  • *
  • 0
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 159
Re: The Chinese Military,Political and Social Superthread
« Reply #59 on: March 09, 2005, 00:16:06 »
If China is serious about reclaiming Taiwan, which it appears it is - its going to be a LONG road ahead before the western powers, or the coalition, will be able to push the Chinese back.

China is a regional power.   They have the largest army on earth, and the largest air force on earth.   Now, in respect, their air force is still in the process of being modernized, and a majority of their aircraft are still 1960's and 1970's vintage aircraft.   But thats changing rather quickly, as they aquire more and more Russian electronics for their aircraft.

They also have a large brown water navy, that is armed to the teeth.   Sure, the Chinese don't have much in the name of blue water capability, but they don't need it.   They have a powerful brown water navy, that is more than capable of handling anything in the Taiwan Straight.   Their submarines, fast attack craft, and capital vessels are more than plenty enough to secure their objectives - and their missile arsenals could devastate Taiwan's defenses before Taiwan even has a chance to mobilize them.

Bottom line, China could secure Taiwan militarily rather quickly.   Once that is accomplished, its going to take an aweful lot of thick military muscle to push them back.   The United States is already spread thin with their occupation of Iraq, which means they won't be able to do much unless its primarily naval activity.   It'll be messy, any way you look at it.


Are sheer numbers enough to overcome the lack of individual expense on training China's soldiers? Are Taiwanese soldiers any better? I'll still take the Canadian army down 5000-1 versus a bunch of Ak-47s which could hit everything----or nothing. ;D :salute:

Offline ziggy_99

  • Guest
  • *
  • 0
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 2
Re: The Chinese Military,Political and Social Superthread
« Reply #60 on: March 09, 2005, 00:23:02 »
I may be completely wrong but if North Korea were to attack South Korea the North Koreans wouldn't exactly walk over the south. In terms of advancement the south koreans are pretty far ahead compared to the north, except for nuclear weapons, which when they have an ally like the US then it kind of evens things out a little.
I may be wrong though

Offline Carcharodon Carcharias

  • Drawing the crabs from Downunder :) WTF is TWL?
  • Banned
  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *
  • 28,970
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 5,248
Re: The Chinese Military,Political and Social Superthread
« Reply #61 on: March 09, 2005, 00:32:25 »
Concentrate on your principles of marksmanship first!

It will be marksmanship by the megaton, with over 350,000,000 Communist Chinese fit and available for military service, we might get their first 1,000,000 but not their second in a conventional war!

Food for thought   ;D

And what about the ANZUS Treaty??? If the   the SHTF, the US is in and so are we (Australia)   :warstory:

Lets hope its just sabre rattling.

Wes

« Last Edit: March 09, 2005, 00:35:41 by Wesley H. Allen, CD »
"You've never lived until you've almost died; as for our freedom, for those of us who have fought for it, life has a flavour the protected will never know." - Anonymous

jmackenzie_15

  • Guest
Re: The Chinese Military,Political and Social Superthread
« Reply #62 on: March 09, 2005, 00:44:18 »
Frightening to think of what would happen if it isnt just sabre rattling.... we'd all be screwed either way.Lots of economies would go haywire, we'd go poor along with the United States, losing our biggest consumer.... assuming the Chinese dont defeat us.  :-\

With the US tied up as much as it is, what would it take to stop them? like wes said, 350 million..... it doesnt matter if they arent very well trained, if theres 50 of you in a defensive somewhere along taiwan with 3,000 chinese coming to attack you, theres nothing you can do about it.Theyll run your trenches untill you expend all of your ammo, and they still have plenty of guys to go around.You're royally effed at that point.Theres just too many.

Offline Carcharodon Carcharias

  • Drawing the crabs from Downunder :) WTF is TWL?
  • Banned
  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *
  • 28,970
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 5,248
Re: The Chinese Military,Political and Social Superthread
« Reply #63 on: March 09, 2005, 00:47:15 »
Frightening to think of what would happen if it isnt just sabre rattling.... we'd all be screwed either way.Theres just too many.

Hence why a conventional war would not work. I am afraid the sun would be rising   several times before 10 am on the first day alone.

Wes
"You've never lived until you've almost died; as for our freedom, for those of us who have fought for it, life has a flavour the protected will never know." - Anonymous

Offline Enfield

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • 855
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 438
Re: The Chinese Military,Political and Social Superthread
« Reply #64 on: March 09, 2005, 00:58:30 »
From what I've read concerning China's military capabilities, they simply don't have the ability to take Taiwan. The PLA lacks the air and naval resources to a) transport sufficient troops and equipment b) overcome Taiwanese defences (the place is an island fortress afterall) c) get through the US Fleet.

However, they can make a LOT of trouble. Their surface to surface missiles and their navy (especially submarine assets) could wreak havoc on and around Taiwan, and threaten the stability of the whole region. Their military may be huge, but most of it is outdated equipment and untrained soldiers, despite recent modernization efforts. The nuclear angle is, of course, worrying to say the least...

But, I just don't see the gain to China in taking on Taiwan. Taking on Taiwan means war with the US and Japan (two largest economies in the world, as well as the top two defence spenders), Australia and Canada (main suppliers of raw resources), and various other regional states such as South Korea, Thailand, Russia (thats a long border to defend), India (also with a huge army), etc... They might be able to hold their own for a bit, maybe even preserve their territorial integrity, but the cost would be huge, they'd be back to 1949. Wouldn't be pretty for anyone. 

Personally, I see the increasing distance between the Chinese capitalist economy and their totalitarian government as a strain that has to break eventually. The contradictions in such a system, coupled with the massively uneven development of the country, make China in my eyes unstable in the long term.
May You Live in Interesting Times

Offline daniel h.

  • Banned
  • Member
  • *
  • 0
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 159
Re: The Chinese Military,Political and Social Superthread
« Reply #65 on: March 09, 2005, 01:19:55 »
It will be marksmanship by the megaton, with over 350,000,000 Communist Chinese fit and available for military service, we might get their first 1,000,000 but not their second in a conventional war!

Food for thought   ;D

And what about the ANZUS Treaty??? If the   the SHTF, the US is in and so are we (Australia)   :warstory:

Lets hope its just sabre rattling.

Wes




What about a guerrilla war? I mean, how many of those conscripts can fight? ;) ....still, it makes you realize how vulnerable Canada could be despite our isolation if it decides to stay small militarily after the U.S. Navy and Air Force cease dominating the seven seas. Of course the Liberals wouldn't see it coming.

But as long as we let China buy us up, I guess we won't be going to war with them--bad for business. :blotto:

Offline nULL

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • -145
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 421
Re: The Chinese Military,Political and Social Superthread
« Reply #66 on: March 09, 2005, 01:22:06 »
http://forums.army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,2941.0.html

I made a post on this awhile ago with an attached news article. It's quite an interesting read on how the Chinese would take Taiwan.

Personally, I don't see why it is a huge deal. Is Taiwan really worth a large-scale war, especially considering the sizable majority of the the population that would welcome a Chinese takeover?

Offline PikaChe

  • I'm not a communist. I just work for them
  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *
  • 37,395
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 3,581
  • Pika la Revolución!
Re: The Chinese Military,Political and Social Superthread
« Reply #67 on: March 09, 2005, 01:28:05 »
But, I just don't see the gain to China in taking on Taiwan. Taking on Taiwan means war with the US
And China might think this is the best time to push the button, considering US op tempo.
Quote
and Japan (two largest economies in the world, as well as the top two defence spenders),
Is there a guarantee that Japan will join the war? They won't, without US support and I don't know what their constitutional amendment went, but I thought Japanese military is forbidden to deploy overseas?
Quote
Australia and Canada (main suppliers of raw resources),
China may risk losing Aussie and Canadian trade if it is decide that PRC would lose face if they don't go for Taiwan. Oriental people are crazy in many ways I tell you. :)
Quote
and various other regional states such as South Korea,
Will be too busy to ensure that Kim Jong Il doesn't do stupid, so SK military is tied up.
Quote
Thailand,
Don't see a reason why Thailand would join, esp. having to deal with aftermath of the tsunami, plus China can throw few divisions at Thailand border to tie up whatever Thailand wants to use.
Quote
Russia (thats a long border to defend),
Since China is Russia's biggest military hardware buyer, unless Russia can get money or some sort of huge advantage somewhere else, I doubt Russia would want to fight China.
Quote
India (also with a huge army), etc...
Again, similar story with Thailand. Would you want to fight in the Himalayas and Tibet?
Quote
They might be able to hold their own for a bit, maybe even preserve their territorial integrity, but the cost would be huge, they'd be back to 1949. Wouldn't be pretty for anyone.
The question is can PLA(N) get enough of best of PLA divisions onto Taiwan. For any other nation that wants to invade mainland China, human wave attacks would probably cause horrendous casualties that no nation would want to sustain, except maybe Russia. (And I don't think Russia has as many men as Chinese to throw away)

Offline Thucydides

  • Army.ca Legend
  • *****
  • 181,780
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 13,154
  • Freespeecher
Re: The Chinese Military,Political and Social Superthread
« Reply #68 on: March 09, 2005, 09:47:37 »
Short answers, various nations will have to decide if an agressive Imperial China is a threat to them. Nations on China's borders will feel the heat much more than nations farther afield. Commercial nations like Japan, India and South Korea may decide that China's use of military power against Tiawan could be an invitation for China's leadership to use military power to coerce them out of markets China covets. Russia may want to secure their borders against Chinese incursions into western Siberia. All these potential threats need to be accounted for, pulling valuable resources away from the Tiawan front.

Vast numbers of Chinese troops might indeed be a threat to cut off or unsupported units, but this is very much like arguments about the "Russian Steamroller" prior to WWI. Although the Russians could pull off surprises, they simply were not capable of commanding or supporting he vast quantities of manpower in an effective manner. American military theory  is very well developed when it comes to identifying and attacking enemy centres of gravity, particularly large scale conventional armies like the Chinese can field. I think the US can pull off some nasty surprises outside of the "conventional warfare" box.

A side thought; since China has been trying to gain resource bases in Canada, an element of economic warfare might take place between the United States and China with Canada as a theater of operations. Canada has signaled to the United States we do not care to support them, and China only sees us as "hewers of wood, drawers of water", so the effect on Canadian corporations and the economy as a whole could be horrendous, and just "collateral damage" in the larger war. American "Grand Strategy" might well be to take the time to identify choke points in the Chinese economy and apply economic pressures to make gaining resources as difficult and expensive as possible.
Dagny, this is not a battle over material goods. It's a moral crisis, the greatest the world has ever faced and the last. Our age is the climax of centuries of evil. We must put an end to it, once and for all, or perish - we, the men of the mind. It was our own guilt. We produced the wealth of the world - but we let our enemies write its moral code.

Offline Cdn Blackshirt

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 10,600
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 1,321
Re: The Chinese Military,Political and Social Superthread
« Reply #69 on: March 09, 2005, 10:43:15 »
The primary problem I see is the more foreign investment that takes place in China, the more leverage they have to act freely against Taiwan, or threaten to nationalize billions in foreign-owned assets.  In essence, they have been inviting our dependence and using to their advantage.  Cunning is a gross understatement....




M.    ???
IMPORTANT - 'Blackshirt' is a reference to Nebraska Cornhuskers Football and not naziism.   National Champions '70, '71, '94, '95 and '97.    Go Huskers!!!!

Offline E.R. Campbell

  • Retired, years ago
  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Myth
  • *
  • 455,160
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 18,061
Re: The Chinese Military,Political and Social Superthread
« Reply #70 on: March 09, 2005, 10:46:10 »
...

I personally think the greatest challenge facing the Chinese {mainlanders}, is there will come a day of reckoning of how the country should be governed. The Chinese aren't blind to democracy. It will be a delicate balancing act for China's leaders, as they want to liberalize the economy, without giving up their powers. Generally the liberalizing of the economy, will lead to the liberalizing of the politics. ...

I agree.

Sometimes the full trappings of democracy - elections, representative and responsible legislatures, etc - are the last things to arrive on the scene.   (Witness Canada: we still have an appointed legislative chamber ... there to exercise sober second thought lest elected representatives of the hoi polloi* get too uppity and decide, for themselves, how to govern themselves.)

It seems to me that the preconditions for democracy are the ones on which the Chinese are, now, working, including, especially:

The rule of law - this is the toughest nut to crack because, like all long lasting, stable oligarchies, the Chinese Communist Party members believe that they, alone, know what is 'best' for the Chinese people.   (This view is not unique to oligarchies; most social democratic movements or parties believe much the same thing.   Broadly, only liberals (of whom there are precious few in the Liberal Party of Canada and, probably, none at all in the ever so morally certain Young Liberals and the Liberal Women's Commission) believe that the people are wise enough, en masse to govern themselves.)   In conservative democracies (Singapore) and illiberal democracies** (followers of the French model) the rule of law obtains, despite the wishes of the governing classes and the natural governing party.

Equality at law - this is also tough because it means that all, governed and governors alike must be fully and equally accountable - even Jean Chrétien, in Canada, maybe ...

Regulatory independence - all but the most unrepentant of the Austrian School economists admit (even if they don't quite believe) that some degrees of regulation are required to establish and maintain some degrees of fairness and openness in public institutions, including governments and the marketplace.   This one is, also, giving some Chinese some heartburn - especially the most senior officials of the Ministry of Defence which is a big and largely unregulated actor in the markets, through its ownership of the biggest players in several industrial sectors and its responsibility for the prison system which, in turn, operates factories (using what some regard as slave labour or, at least, unfairly (maybe unlawfully) subsidized labour) in many sectors.

It seems to me that the much celebrated spread of democracy in about 75% of the UN's 200+/- members states is grossly overstated because all it means that someone or other got elected, once; but, since none of the other conditions are operative, democracy can hardly be said to have taken root; elections ≠ democracy.

I think that the growth of market capitalism will spur the growth of the institutions and attitudes (above) which are, in my view, essential preconditions for democracy.   Investors need the rule of law, equality at law and regulatory independence to protect their investments (those who eschew such protections are gamblers, not investors) and the Chinese need investors (including domestic investors), for the long term, rather than gamblers.   Once capitalism has done its work then democratic reforms will, likely, follow along rather naturally.

It is not clear to me that China will morph into an Anglo-American style liberal democracy or even into a rather illiberal social democracy; I suspect that it, like Singapore will become a conservative democracy, which may be more in tune with China's conservative culture.   I do believe that China will become a democracy and, as I have written elsewhere, one of our foreign policy goals must be to contain Chinese ambitions while it makes that (long - 35+ years) transition.   (I do not mean Kennan style containment, rather I mean engaging China as a competitor and avoiding turning it into an enemy.)   It seems to me that democracies, including conservative democracies are less inclined to see war as a solution to political problems - even though, sometimes, wars are quite necessary and are the only acceptable solutions to some political problems.

----------

* I know hoi means 'the' but the hoi polloi has been accepted for centuries.

** This is Fareed Zakaria's idea; see: http://www.fareedzakaria.com/articles/other/democracy.html
It is ill that men should kill one another in seditions, tumults and wars; but it is worse to bring nations to such misery, weakness and baseness
as to have neither strength nor courage to contend for anything; to have nothing left worth defending and to give the name of peace to desolation.
Algernon Sidney in Discourses Concerning Government, (1698)
----------
Like what you see/read here on Army.ca?  Subscribe, and help keep it "on the air!"

Offline daniel h.

  • Banned
  • Member
  • *
  • 0
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 159
Re: The Chinese Military,Political and Social Superthread
« Reply #71 on: March 09, 2005, 11:18:47 »
Quote
. Despite the obvious differences in their creation, I can't help but want to draw comparisons between Taiwan and Quebec; were the Parti Quebecois to win the next provincial  election, and decide to pursue unillateral independence (with the support of a larger number of like-minded voters than Taiwan's DPP) would Canada be justified in taking military action to force reunification? (Pretend the government would play along!)

I think this is a red herring. The federal government could legally end separatism if it had the nerve. Quebec is a province, legally. It's not our fault our feds have decided to weaken the federation.


I think the real comparison is between the U.S. and Canada. If the U.S. tried to give us the Taiwan treatment, are there too may U.S. sympathizers in the Canadian military?  I hope not.

Offline Aden_Gatling

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • -195
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 915
  • Action is eloquence.
Re: The Chinese Military,Political and Social Superthread
« Reply #72 on: March 09, 2005, 12:43:23 »
A side thought; since China has been trying to gain resource bases in Canada, an element of economic warfare might take place between the United States and China with Canada as a theater of operations. Canada has signaled to the United States we do not care to support them, and China only sees us as "hewers of wood, drawers of water", so the effect on Canadian corporations and the economy as a whole could be horrendous, and just "collateral damage" in the larger war. American "Grand Strategy" might well be to take the time to identify choke points in the Chinese economy and apply economic pressures to make gaining resources as difficult and expensive as possible.

Here's an anecdote: I work for a Taiwanese company.  Everywhere we operate around the world (including PRC) the word "China" is part of the company's proper (registered) name.  Except in Canada: it was determined that use of "China" in the company's name would be too provocative ... they are laughing up their sleeves at us!  I suspect the PRC sees Canada as a crack in Western solidarity that is to be exploited: Canada refusing to support Taiwan/US/Japan will give them all the moral imperative they need.
There's a fine line between fishing and just standing on the shore like an idiot.

Offline Thucydides

  • Army.ca Legend
  • *****
  • 181,780
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 13,154
  • Freespeecher
Re: The Chinese Military,Political and Social Superthread
« Reply #73 on: March 09, 2005, 12:57:09 »
The Chinese leadership may decide to take the age old "out" of creating a foreign crisis/enemy to deflect attention from the failures that are happening at home. Here in Canada, we may actually have more leverage than we think; Canadians do not have to purchase items "made in China", and business do not have to have dealings with China either. This would require that the short term advantages of dealing with China be outweighed by the disadvantages. (This does not mean a formal trade embargo).

This requires the public be constantly exposed to the reality of life in the PRC; the cultivation of alternative low cost producers (India, Indonesia), and, dare I say it, cultivating the American market even more to keep our producers and resource companies firmly planted in "our" market; and pushing for access to the EU (as part of the Western civilization; they are prefferable than a potential opponent civilization).

As has been pointed out, China has severe internal problems. Restricting their access to our resources and markets may induce enough strains to pull the Central Committee's eyes off Tiawan, and buy us some more time to prepare to deal with the new Imperial power. This is also an argument to continue to develop conventional military capabilities to deal with "symmetric" warfare, alongside the expanding capabilities to deal with "asymmetrical" warfare.
Dagny, this is not a battle over material goods. It's a moral crisis, the greatest the world has ever faced and the last. Our age is the climax of centuries of evil. We must put an end to it, once and for all, or perish - we, the men of the mind. It was our own guilt. We produced the wealth of the world - but we let our enemies write its moral code.

Offline Aden_Gatling

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • -195
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 915
  • Action is eloquence.
Re: The Chinese Military,Political and Social Superthread
« Reply #74 on: March 09, 2005, 13:01:46 »
This requires the public be constantly exposed to the reality of life in the PRC

How is this going to happen?  The Canadian Government does not want this ...
There's a fine line between fishing and just standing on the shore like an idiot.