Author Topic: CH-148 Cyclone Progress  (Read 528278 times)

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Offline Good2Golf

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Re: CH-148 Cyclone Progress
« Reply #925 on: September 07, 2016, 01:16:36 »
A business-minder person might think that if a company failed so greatly and so blatantly to meet it's contractual commitments, it would suffer significant damage to it's credibility and share price. Shouldn't that be incentive enough for them?

 ???

Failed "so greatly?"  The delay damages weren't even a single percent of annual revenue and absorbed over a few years, also less than 1% of EBITDA... 
« Last Edit: September 07, 2016, 01:41:01 by Good2Golf »

Offline CBH99

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Re: CH-148 Cyclone Progress
« Reply #926 on: September 07, 2016, 02:48:06 »
I don't think "failed so greatly" was meant in that the company was a failure.  And with the amount of work Sikorski does on both the military & civilian sides, 28 airframes isn't exactly going to make or break them.  I think we can all agree on that.

I think it was meant in the sense that they "failed so greatly" to deliver a working product in a timely manner. 

Granted that our political processes don't make it easy for companies to do business with us.  But even if our procurement system was streamlined and efficient, there still isn't an excuse for Sikorski to not have an operational product after this long.  After all, I'm pretty sure Sikorski marketed the Cyclone as being just that when the decision was made.

As bad as the political decisions were, I'm pretty sure even the Liberals at the time would have bought something else if Sikorski said "Yeah, this is just a concept & it still needs a lot of work."
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Offline Good2Golf

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Re: CH-148 Cyclone Progress
« Reply #927 on: September 07, 2016, 15:25:31 »
Two things: 1) Sikorsky was getting into the USMC CH-53K program for Billions and Billions and Billions of USD-worth of big helicopters for the US Marines; and 2) Canada was still under Chretine's edict of anything but an EH-101.  He was pissed off enough that DND snuck the AW101-511 (aka CH-149 Cormorant) in as setting other than an EH-101, but there was no way he was going to allow (and he still had boatloads of influence over the LPC) to procure an EH-101 again.  That left S-92 variant, NH-90 variant and the Eurocopter (now Airbus) H225.  H225 was seen to have msn sys limitations (rightly or wrongly), leaving S/H-92 and NH-90, both of which had fly-by-wire flight control
systems.  Personally, I think the government knew full well that H-92 (mil-spec S-92) was a significant re-design, and there was lots of frustration amongst the NH-90 partner nations, so between that, and the P'tit Gars standing behind Paul Martin Jr., whilst smacking a baseball bar into the pa of his open hand to ward off any I'll-considered last-minute attempts for EH-101 round 3, the -92 was how it went down.  In perspective, it may seem like a big thing to us, but to the US, it's pretty much te thickness of a paint line on the asphalt...it ain't even a speed bump in their business...

:2c:

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Offline Colin P

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Re: CH-148 Cyclone Progress
« Reply #928 on: September 08, 2016, 16:37:40 »
Going by the stuff I hear about the NH-90, we may be glad we stuck with the Cyclone.

Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: CH-148 Cyclone Progress
« Reply #929 on: September 08, 2016, 16:41:38 »
NFHs are flying now in their intended role though...and not just since yesterday.  I've been in the same airspace as them.  Can't say the same for our Cyclone.   :2c:
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Offline MarkOttawa

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Re: CH-148 Cyclone Progress
« Reply #930 on: November 07, 2016, 17:19:45 »
At Defense Industry Daily:

Quote
CH-148 Cyclones: 4th Time Lucky?

What did Canada’s military give up on for v4.0 of the program?

November 7/16: A Canadian CH-148 Cyclone has conducted its first anti-submarine warfare testing
http://www.navy-marine.forces.gc.ca/en/news-operations/news-view.page?doc=another-first-for-the-ch148-cyclone-helicopter/iutm5yf0

with the HMCS Windsor off the coast of Nova Scotia. The Sikorsky-made naval helicopter was tested as part of its Operational Test and Evaluation (OT&E) carried out by the Helicopter Test and Evaluation Facility (HOTEF). Crews onboard the CH-148 employed Expendable Mobile ASW Training Targets (EMATTs) to simulate submarine movements and noise patterns, which allowed HOTEF crews to further develop those tactical procedures that will be used by operational crews following CH148 Release to Service...

Canada’s Maritime Helicopter Replacement Program has been a textbook military procurement program over its long history external link. Unfortunately, it has been a textbook example of what not to do...
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/canadas-ch-148-cyclones-better-late-than-never-05223/

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Offline Colin P

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Re: CH-148 Cyclone Progress
« Reply #931 on: April 07, 2017, 15:52:33 »
Likely not news to those involved even remotely, but now public
http://www.news1130.com/2017/04/07/air-force-grounds-cyclone-military-helicopter-fleet-after-issue-during-descent/ 

HALIFAX – The Royal Canadian Air Force has grounded its fleet of CH-148 Cyclone helicopters after one of the naval choppers encountered a “severe bump” during a training flight — the latest delay in a project years behind its original delivery date.

Col. Peter Allan, commander at the 12 Wing Shearwater air base, said the problem corrected itself during a descent and the pilot safely landed the aircraft with no damage during a night flight near Halifax on March 9.

However, the glitch prompted a freeze on flying as of March 12, and the Air Force is investigating with the help of aircraft manufacturer Sikorsky.

The Air Force also temporarily grounded the Cyclones in January to check for potential tail rotor problems following an incident on a North Sea oil platform involving a civilian version of the helicopter.

Allan said the latest problem isn’t related to the tail rotor.

He said the Cyclone crew described feeling a “a severe bump on the underside of the aircraft.”

“There were a couple of flight control system advisory lights that illuminated in the cockpit,” he said.

A spokesman later indicated these included the “automatic flight control system advisory” and the “primary flight control system degraded advisory.”

To date, 11 Cyclones have been delivered to the Royal Canadian Air Force, of which three are operated for testing and evaluation.

The existing fleet of aging CH-124 Sikorsky Sea King helicopters will continue to provide maritime helicopter support for the Royal Canadian Navy.

Doug Baker, a spokesman from the Maritime Helicopter Project, said he won’t have a definite time when the fleet will fly again until the root cause of the incident is determined and potential fixes are identified.

He said the grounding means that flight testing is delayed, and that further delivery of helicopters from the Sikorsky plant before the summer will be on hold.

However, Allan said it’s too early to predict if the problem will mean a delay in the Sikorsky helicopters being available for operational service.

In the meantime, technicians and air crew will continue training and flight simulators will be in use, he said.

The previous Liberal government signed a contract with U.S. defence giant Sikorsky to deliver 28 CH-148 Cyclone helicopters by 2008. The program has faced delays and technical challenges, resulting in two contract extensions.

Baker said after almost a month there is no result from the investigation of the latest issue.

“However … the nature of the incident was very momentary,” he said. “It was something that didn’t exist once the aircraft was on the ground. It makes it difficult to isolate, duplicate and determine the root cause.”

Offline suffolkowner

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Re: CH-148 Cyclone Progress
« Reply #932 on: April 07, 2017, 18:28:58 »
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/royal-canadian-air-force-cyclone-helicopters-sikorsky-1.4060801

Further to the post above, 11 in service, 2 ready for delivery and 2 in production. I thought we would be ahead of that delivery schedule wise

Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: CH-148 Cyclone Progress
« Reply #933 on: April 07, 2017, 20:23:43 »
To date, 11 Cyclones have been delivered to the Royal Canadian Air Force, of which three are operated for testing and evaluation.
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Offline milnews.ca

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Re: CH-148 Cyclone Progress
« Reply #934 on: April 08, 2017, 07:39:26 »
In a related story, the Indian Navy may be able to take our old Sea Kings off our hands once the Procurement Borg has its' crap sorted out ...
Quote
To meet the urgent helicopter requirement of the Indian Navy, India is expected to discuss acquiring Sea King CH-124 helicopters during the coming visit of Canada’s defence minister Harjit Sajjan. Speaking to FE on condition of anonymity, sources said: “At this time Canada is in the process of decommissioning four of its Sea King CH-124 helicopters. These four have very little hours of flying logged in, and four that were decommissioned last December were recently upgraded.” The helicopters, though being decommissioned, are still in condition of being flown.

“The Indian Navy has Sea King helicopters that have reached the end of their lives and are constantly being upgraded. The Indian side is likely to talk about these machines as these could bridge the gap and to support the depleting Indian Navy fleet as the acquisition process for new helicopters is not making any headway,” they added. Several procurement processes under various categories of helicopters, naval utility, multi-role helicopter (MRH), naval multi-role helicopter (NMRH), are all stuck due to re tendering or blacklisting of AgustaWestland ...
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Offline MilEME09

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Re: CH-148 Cyclone Progress
« Reply #935 on: April 08, 2017, 09:05:49 »
I'm pretty sure Very little flight hours and Sea King do not go together in this country.
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Offline SeaKingTacco

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Re: CH-148 Cyclone Progress
« Reply #936 on: April 08, 2017, 10:20:14 »
Our average Sea King has about 16,000 hrs.

There are Sea kings doing heli-logging on the west coast with 45,000hrs on the airframe.

Now, going to sea and bouncing them off the deck of a ship does them no favours, but Igor Sikorsky way over built them.

For the record, I would much prefer to see the Indians buy a bunch and keep them flying, rather than see them crushed for scrap metal.

Offline jmt18325

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Re: CH-148 Cyclone Progress
« Reply #937 on: April 08, 2017, 10:33:34 »
I thought we needed new helicopters because they were finished?

Offline SeaKingTacco

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Re: CH-148 Cyclone Progress
« Reply #938 on: April 08, 2017, 13:58:34 »
There is a lot more to a helicopter than the airframe.

Engines. Gearboxes. Electrical systems. Avionics. Sensors. Safety systems.

All of that needs doing on our Sea Kings.

Offline Oldgateboatdriver

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Re: CH-148 Cyclone Progress
« Reply #939 on: April 09, 2017, 08:41:25 »
Now, going to sea and bouncing them off the deck of a ship does them no favours, but Igor Sikorsky way over built them.

Don't we wish that genius was still alive and running the show at the company. Maybe the Cyclone would have been on time and with a lot less bugs and bump along the way.

Offline SeaKingTacco

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Re: CH-148 Cyclone Progress
« Reply #940 on: April 09, 2017, 09:55:21 »
He was in a class of his own, that for certain.

Offline Good2Golf

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Re: CH-148 Cyclone Progress
« Reply #941 on: April 09, 2017, 11:19:47 »
He was in a class of his own, that for certain.

Cajones AND style!!! :nod:


Offline Cdn Blackshirt

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Re: CH-148 Cyclone Progress
« Reply #942 on: April 09, 2017, 11:21:58 »
So is Sikorsky still in serial manufacturing right now?  I'm assuming we'll continue to receive "unaccepted" helicopters which will later need a standardized upgrade later after they've worked out the defects?
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Offline NavyShooter

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Re: CH-148 Cyclone Progress
« Reply #943 on: April 09, 2017, 12:07:49 »
I should post that photo on the ADR the next time I'm on a ship....

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Offline jmt18325

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Re: CH-148 Cyclone Progress
« Reply #944 on: April 09, 2017, 16:42:19 »
There is a lot more to a helicopter than the airframe.

Engines. Gearboxes. Electrical systems. Avionics. Sensors. Safety systems.

All of that needs doing on our Sea Kings.

I get that - but if it's worth it for them to buy, it might have been worth it for us to fix them.  I'm not convinced that the CH-148 will ever be delivered at this point.

Offline Chris Pook

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Re: CH-148 Cyclone Progress
« Reply #945 on: April 09, 2017, 18:05:54 »

To date, 11 Cyclones have been delivered to the Royal Canadian Air Force, of which three are operated for testing and evaluation.
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Offline SeaKingTacco

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Re: CH-148 Cyclone Progress
« Reply #946 on: April 09, 2017, 18:47:54 »
I get that - but if it's worth it for them to buy, it might have been worth it for us to fix them.  I'm not convinced that the CH-148 will ever be delivered at this point.

For a lot of reasons, I believe that ship has firmly sailed...

Offline Spencer100

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Re: CH-148 Cyclone Progress
« Reply #947 on: April 10, 2017, 09:00:11 »
Well here is Sea King checking out the beach in Guam.   The locals are not impressed.

http://www.kuam.com/story/35105079/royal-canadian-navy-chopper-flies-low-over-tumon-bay


Offline Rifleman62

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Re: CH-148 Cyclone Progress
« Reply #948 on: April 10, 2017, 09:40:18 »
And no Sea King Bunkers for the locals.
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Offline jmt18325

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Re: CH-148 Cyclone Progress
« Reply #949 on: April 10, 2017, 16:38:35 »

To date, 11 Cyclones have been delivered to the Royal Canadian Air Force, of which three are operated for testing and evaluation.

They have been delivered - sort of - but not really.