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Offline S.M.A.

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Re: Mumbai rocked by series of fatal shootings
« Reply #50 on: November 29, 2008, 00:34:32 »
More pictures from today:



Indian National security Guard (NSG) commandos rappel down from a helicopter onto the roof of Nariman House, which houses a Jewish centre, in Mumbai November 28, 2008. Gunfire erupted on Friday when commandos began an operation to free Israelis held by suspected Islamist gunmen in Mumbai, while guests were also being evacuated from a luxury hotel in India's financial heart, witnesses said. REUTERS/Stringer
(INDIA). INDIA OUT. NO COMMERCIAL OR EDITORIAL SALES IN INDIA..




National Security Guard (NSG) commandos take positions near a Jewish centre in Mumbai November 28, 2008.
REUTERS/Jayatha Shaw (INDIA)




A commando fires at suspected terrorists holed up in a house owned by Israelis in Colaba, Mumbai, India, Friday, Nov. 28, 2008. Security forces assaulted a Jewish center in Mumbai where Muslim militants were believed holed up with possible hostages Friday, with black-clad commandos dropping from a Indian helicopter as sharpshooters opened fire on the five-story building.
(AP Photo/Saurabh Das)




A National Security Guard commando rappels from a helicopter near Nariman House, where suspected militants are believed to be hiding, in Mumbai November 28, 2008. Pakistan's spy chief has agreed to share intelligence with New Delhi on the brazen militant attacks in Mumbai, India said on Friday, as a siege at two hotels and a Jewish centre neared its end amid gunfire and more deaths. Nariman House has mainly Jewish residents.
REUTERS/Peter Keep (INDIA)




An Indian commando abseils from a helicopter onto the rooftop of Nariman House in Mumbai. Special forces have stormed a Mumbai Jewish centre and battled to free guests at two hotels, as India blamed Pakistan for an audacious Islamist militant attack that left at least 130 people dead.
(AFP/Pedro Ugarte)




Indian commandos prepare to attack from the rooftop of Nariman House in Mumbai.
(AFP/Prakash Singh)




The windows on the first floor of the Taj Mahal hotel shatter after the use of a grenade launcher in Mumbai, India, Friday, Nov. 28, 2008.
(AP Photo/Rajanish Kakade)




Army personnel carry a grenade launcher after using it on the facade of Taj Mahal Hotel in Mumbai, India, Friday, Nov. 28, 2008.
(AP Photo/Gurinder Osan)




An Indian policeman aims his rifle during a hostage rescue operation at Nariman House in Mumbai. Special forces have stormed a Mumbai Jewish centre and battled to free guests at two hotels, as India blamed Pakistan for an audacious Islamist militant attack that left at least 130 people dead.
(AFP/Pedro Ugarte)




An Indian soldiers aims at Taj Mahal Hotel where suspected militants are holed up during an assault in Mumbai, India, Friday, Nov. 28, 2008.
(AP Photo/Altaf Qadri)




National Security Guard chief Jyoti Krishan Dutt, center left, looks on after announcing the completion of commando operation at the Oberoi Trident Hotel in Mumbai, India, Friday, Nov. 28, 2008. Commandos rappelling from helicopters stormed a besieged Jewish center Friday and scoured two landmark luxury hotels to rush survivors to safety and flush out gunmen, two days after a chain of militant attacks across India's financial center left people dead and the city in panic.
(AP Photo/Gurinder Osan)
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Offline S.M.A.

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Re: Mumbai rocked by series of fatal shootings
« Reply #51 on: November 29, 2008, 00:51:00 »
More details about the end of this operation:

 
Quote
Battle for Mumbai ends: Last Islamic extremists killed
http://newsinfo.inquirer.net/breakingnews/world/view/20081129-175142/Battle-for-Mumbai-ends

Agence France-Presse
First Posted 11:20:00 11/29/2008

MUMBAI—(UPDATE 2) Commandos killed three holdout gunmen Saturday in Mumbai's Taj Hotel, bringing an end to a two-day Islamic extremist assault on India's financial capital that left at least 155 dead, including 21 foreigners.

The final attack on the historic seafront hotel was marked by heavy gunfire and loud explosions that triggered a fierce fire, as special forces units moved against gunmen who had held hundreds of security personnel at bay for three nights.

"All operations are over. All the terrorists have been killed," Mumbai police commissioner Hassan Gafoor said, 59 hours after the attacks began.

On Friday, elite troops stormed a Mumbai Jewish center and killed two gunmen -- but also found five dead Israeli hostages, including a US-based rabbi and his wife, who were murdered as the commandos closed in.

The other luxury hotel that was attacked, the Oberoi/Trident, was declared clear of militants late Friday, with scores of trapped guests rescued and 24 bodies found.

"They were the kind of people with no remorse -- anybody and whomsoever came in front of them they fired," an Indian commando said of the young gunmen who slipped into Mumbai on Wednesday evening.

The head of the commando forces, J.K. Dutt, said his men were conducting a final sweep of the battle-scarred Taj.

"We are now going through each and every room to make sure it is safe," Dutt said, appealing to any guests still hiding in the hotel to make themselves known.

"They must open their curtains so that our security forces can see inside and make sure there are only guests and no terrorist inside," he said.

Police officials put the death toll at around 155 people, with 327 others wounded. TV channels described the attacks as "India's 9/11."

The 21 foreigners killed included the Israelis, two Americans, two French nationals, two Australians, a German, a Japanese, a Canadian, a British Cypriot, an Italian and a Singaporean.

A government minister said the overall toll could rise as more corpses are recovered.

"Once the bodies are collected, the number of deaths might go up to 200," India's Minister of State for Home Affairs Sri Prakash Jaiswal told the Press Trust of India.

At least 11 militants were confirmed dead and one captured. Indian intelligence sources said the detained gunman had confessed to coming from Pakistan.

One group entered the city by boat, while others were believed to have been inside the city -- stockpiling arms and explosives -- well before the attacks were launched.

The crisis risked escalating into a major stand-off between nuclear-armed India and Pakistan, with Indian Foreign Minister Pranab Mukherjee saying that "some elements in Pakistan are responsible" for the assault.

A number of Indian officials suggested the militants were from the Pakistan-based Lashkar-e-Taiba -- notorious for a deadly assault on the Indian parliament in 2001 that almost pushed New Delhi and Islamabad to war.

But Pakistani Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gilani insisted his country had "nothing to do with the attacks" and Foreign Minister Shah Mehmood Qureshi appealed to India not to get drawn into a "blame game" that could spark a dangerous confrontation.

The two countries have fought three wars since gaining independence from Britain in 1947.

Survivors have given terrifying accounts of the carnage in the hotels. Many said they hid in the dark for hours, barricaded in rooms or hiding under beds, inside wardrobes or bathrooms.

"I cannot believe what I have seen in the last 36 hours. I have seen dead bodies, blood everywhere and only heard gunshots," said Muneer Al Mahaj after he was rescued.

South African security guard Faisul Nagel was having dinner with colleagues at a restaurant in the Taj hotel when the assault began. They barricaded the restaurant and moved everyone into the kitchen.

"We basically put the lights off in the restaurant just to create an element of surprise. And we armed ourselves with kitchen knives and meat cleavers," he told Agence France-Presse.

They ended up helping around 120 people escape -- including a 90-year-old woman who had to be carried in her chair down 25 flights of stairs.

Witnesses also said the attackers had specifically rounded up people with US and British passports.

Both the United States and Britain expressed condolences and offered to help investigate the assault on Mumbai, which has been hit by terror attacks before. Nearly 190 people were killed in train bombings in 2006.

US President George W. Bush said he was "deeply saddened," and British Prime Minister Gordon Brown said he was sending police to help with the probe.

India's newspapers laid much of the blame at the door of the intelligence agencies, which they said had failed spectacularly in allowing a handful of gunmen to slip in by boat and wreak such havoc and devastation.

Our Country
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"A leader is best when people barely know he exists, when his work is done, his aim fulfilled, they will say: We did it ourselves."   - Lao Zi (老子)
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"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm."
- Winston Churchill

Offline jollyjacktar

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Re: Mumbai rocked by series of fatal shootings
« Reply #52 on: November 29, 2008, 08:59:50 »
CBC reporter Terry Meleski was just on CBC Newsworld from outside the Taj.  He is reporting that the last two terrorists have just been killed bringing this horror to an end.  A surviving gunman has confessed to police that he is Pakastani, and all their training was conducted in Pakistan. 

The official toll is 195 dead, 300+ wounded.  21 are foreigners amongst the dead.  2 Canadians were killed, and 2 wounded.  They fear the death toll may double once all sweeps are complete.

The crap is going to hit the fan between India and Pakistan now I bet. 

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Re: Mumbai rocked by series of fatal shootings
« Reply #53 on: November 29, 2008, 09:11:07 »
That all depends on whether the Pakistani Government actually knew about it or whether it was some offshoot of ISI that does not want good relations between the countries to develop....everything is as clear as mud...
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Offline Thucydides

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Re: Mumbai rocked by series of fatal shootings
« Reply #54 on: November 29, 2008, 12:56:20 »
From the National Post:

http://www.nationalpost.com/opinion/story.html?id=1002827

Quote
A landmark attack in the annals of modern terrorism

John C. Thompson, National Post  Published: Friday, November 28, 2008

The Mumbai attacks represent a scenario that few Western police and security forces have dared envision. Fewer still have prepared for it.

The basic strategy: use a large number of attackers to overwhelm a target city's ability to respond, and then suddenly switch focus to high value targets and seize hostages.

The terrorists first diverted the attention of security forces through a range of incidents involving gunmen all over the city; then, as police attempted to react, they were themselves ambushed. The death of the commander of the Mumbai Counter-Terror Team and two of his principal lieutenants was no accident. To heighten the confusion, at least one group of gunmen ranged around the city in either a stolen or counterfeit police van.

The attack on a Mumbai hospital was also a disturbing detail. Terrorists love to create mass-casualty events -- but to attack a hospital? Jihadist chat rooms have often entertained the idea of a hospital attack, but we've never seen it used yet. This tactic will probably become a new standard practice for terrorists.

Authorities in the United States have long been anxious about al-Qaeda discussions focused on acquiring surplus emergency vehicles and using them for attacks on hospitals -- a scenario that came up in their Internet chats in 2003-04, and which prompted some attempts to buy old ambulances in several U. S. cities

Another nightmare situation involves a further refinement to the strategy behind the 2004 seizure of a school in Beslan, North Ossetia-Alania, and the 2002 attack on a Moscow theatre, both by Chechen terrorists. In these two notorious attacks, a large force of gunmen seized large groups of hostages (including many children) in public buildings.

The Chechens' intentions were not to negotiate for some advantage, but to prepare a murderous deathtrap for any rescue force, while rigging explosives to guarantee the deaths of all hostages. A premature assault in Beslan (in which hundreds of anxious parents joined) saved many hostages, while the Bolshoi Theatre incident was addressed by the over-use of a disabling chemical agent -- which served to subdue the terrorists, but also killed many of the hostages.

Hotels, office towers and apartment buildings represent large concentrations of people with few access points. They have all been favourite targets for truck bombs for many years, but some counter-terror officers have often wondered how long it would be before some group of gunmen tried to control these buildings rather than destroy them. This is the future face of terrorism.

Ask any infantryman or SWAT-trooper about how much they would like to hunt through a high rise for terrorists who are holding hostages: not much. Buildings soak up manpower (and munitions); and every confrontation tends to be at point-blank ranges. Clearing and securing such sites cannot be quick, easy or risk-free; and the terrorists have the time to do what they want with their captives.

When "red-teaming" potential attacks inside Western Europe and North America, counter-terror officials have often refused to even contemplate attacks like this. Mumbai-type attacks are seen as too complicated to war-game in training exercises. Moreover, the idea of a hostage situation with a gang of gunmen in a high-rise has been seen as too "Hollywood" ( Die Hard, to be more specific) to be tackled seriously.

This week's Mumbai attacks should change this thinking. Our police and emergency responders have new standards that they will have to learn to meet -- or else the same kind of tragedy could unfold here.

-John C. Thompson is director of the Mackenzie Institute, a Canadian think-tank concerned with organized violence and political instability.
Dagny, this is not a battle over material goods. It's a moral crisis, the greatest the world has ever faced and the last. Our age is the climax of centuries of evil. We must put an end to it, once and for all, or perish - we, the men of the mind. It was our own guilt. We produced the wealth of the world - but we let our enemies write its moral code.

Offline Flanker

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Re: Mumbai rocked by series of fatal shootings
« Reply #55 on: November 29, 2008, 13:24:38 »
Quote
The attackers had specifically targeted Britons and Americans inside the hotels, witnesses said.


Quote
Police officials put the death toll at around 155 people, with 327 others wounded. TV channels described the attacks as "India's 9/11."

The 21 foreigners killed included the Israelis, two Americans, two French nationals, two Australians, a German, a Japanese, a Canadian, a British Cypriot, an Italian and a Singaporean.

Looks like these terrorists are not good shooters at all or ... someone tries to mislead public opinion. :-\
« Last Edit: November 29, 2008, 13:27:41 by Flanker »

Offline tomahawk6

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Re: Mumbai rocked by series of fatal shootings
« Reply #56 on: November 29, 2008, 13:37:43 »
We know that 6 Americans were killed in the attack.

Offline S.M.A.

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Re: Mumbai rocked by series of fatal shootings
« Reply #57 on: November 29, 2008, 13:58:19 »


National Security Guard members rest outside Taj Mahal Hotel after an operation in Mumbai November 29, 2008.
REUTERS/Jayanta Shaw (INDIA)




An Indian commando carries boxes of unused ammunition from the Taj Mahal hotel in Mumbai on November 29, 2008. Commandos Saturday killed the last remaining gunmen in Mumbai's Taj hotel to end a devastating attack by Islamic militants on India's financial capital that left 195 dead, including 26 foreigners.
(AFP/Indranil Mukherjee)




Indian commandos return after the completion of their operation inside the Taj Mahal hotel in Mumbai, India, Saturday, Nov. 29, 2008.
(AP Photo/Gurinder Osan)




An Indian soldier (left) congratulates a commando after their successful operation at the Taj Mahal hotel in Mumbai.
(AFP/Indranil Mukherjee)




Indian commandos show the thumbs-up sign after the completion of their operation inside Taj Mahal hotel, background, in Mumbai, India, Saturday, Nov. 29, 2008.
(AP Photo/Gurinder Osan)






National Security Guard members discuss outside Taj Hotel after an operation in Mumbai November 29, 2008.
REUTERS/Jayanta Shaw (INDIA)




National Security Guard commandoes carry the coffin of their colleague Gajendra Singh, who died in the encounter with gunmen at Mumbai's Nariman House in New Delhi, India, Saturday, Nov. 29, 2008.
(AP Photo/ Mustafa Quraishi)




National Security Guard chief Jyoti Krishan Dutt, speaks to the media in Mumbai, India, Saturday, Nov.29, 2008.
(AP Photo/Altaf Qadri)


His uniform is placed on his body as Hemant Karkare, the chief of Mumbai's Anti-Terrorist Squad is taken for cremation in Mumbai, India, Saturday, Nov. 29, 2008.
(AP Photo/Saurabh Das)




Rest in Peace, Major/Police Chief Hemant Karkare.

 :salute:
« Last Edit: November 29, 2008, 23:33:48 by CougarDaddy »
Our Country
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"A leader is best when people barely know he exists, when his work is done, his aim fulfilled, they will say: We did it ourselves."   - Lao Zi (老子)
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"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm."
- Winston Churchill

Offline tomahawk6

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Re: Mumbai rocked by series of fatal shootings
« Reply #58 on: November 29, 2008, 18:23:19 »
Analysis of an intel failure.

http://www.outlookindia.com/fu...9&fname=saikat&sid=1

In mid-September this year, the CIA station chief in Delhi sought an urgent meeting with his counterpart in R&AW to pass on some critical inputs. This was part of an understanding that Indian and American intelligence had institutionalised in the aftermath of 9/11. From its assets in Pakistan and Afghanistan, American intelligence had come to learn that the Lashkar-e-Toiba was planning to launch a major terrorist attack in Mumbai, which would be carried out from the sea.

This input was in conjunction with other inputs that Indian intelligence had received from various other sources. For instance, Riyasuddin, the son of Maulana Nasiruddin, who was under arrest for his alleged involvement in the assassination of the then Gujarat home minister Naren Pandya, had stated in his statements to the police that a sea-borne attack was being planned by certain terrorist groups abroad for an attack on Mumbai.

Similarly other vague inputs had also come in from Uttar Pradesh as well as other sources. But by September 24, Indian intelligence picked up several specific inputs. These were:
An LeT module was being trained in a camp around Karachi for launching attacks from the sea for at least three months

Yusuf Muzammil, the chief of operations of the LeT was in contact with an LeT operative stationed in Bangladesh (identified as "Yayah") who was being asked to procure international SIM cards for an operation that had been planned

Information was also available that the team had been trained by Zakir-ur-Rehman Lakhvi, also known as "Chacha" an ageing ideologue who conducted most of the LeT's training modules.
By the middle of November, as Indian intelligence continued to check out further inputs, the pieces of an intricate jigsaw puzzle began to fall into place. Sources say they learnt that the attack would come from the sea and that the Taj Hotel would be a major target. However, it was not known whether this attack would be carried out by planting bombs in the hotel or by terrorists carrying small arms. Indian intelligence assessments were tilting towards bombs being planted and security at the hotel was beefed up accordingly to prevent terrorists from planting bombs inside the premises.

On November 18, R&AW passed on a specific advisory to the Coast Guard, which serves as the Lead intelligence Agency for the coastal area. The advisory asked the coast guard to intensify patrolling and look out for a suspicious vessel, probably of Pakistani origin, which had sailed off from Karachi. While the coast guard began to patrol the area with renewed intensity, the terrorists had an entirely different plan.

According to details available with Indian intelligence and the information given by the terrorist who was picked up by the Mumbai police in an encounter near Chowpatty, the terrorists hijacked an Indian fishing boat, the Kuber, somewhere near Pakistani waters. They beheaded the majority of the boat's crew of six and only allowed one crew-member, Amarsinh Solanki, to live so that he could help them with navigating the boat to Mumbai. The coast guard found a Global Positioning System abandoned on the fishing trawler that was drifting nearly four nautical miles off the coast of Mumbai early on Thursday, November 27 morning, several hours after the terrorist attack began.

While the coast guard was looking for a Pakistani or unidentified vessel, the Kuber (registration number 2303) blended in with the thousands of registered Indian fishing vessels out at sea.

This enabled the terrorists to avoid detection and slip into Badhwar park in Cuffe Parade in Mumbai before they began their operations. Most of them got into waiting boats that had been arranged by Karachi-based underworld don Dawood Ibrahim's diesel smuggling network in Mumbai. Arms, ammunition and plastic explosives were quickly transferred to the waiting boats that took the terrorists to the Gateway of India which was the pre-arranged launching pad for the terrorist attack.

What has surprised investigators piecing together the details of the attack is that the GPS recovered from the abandoned trawler, Kuber, had two maps fed into it to aid navigation. One was a route from Karachi that was plotted quite close to the Indian coast, while a return route had also been mapped into the GPS from the Mumbai coast back to Karachi. "We think this was done to give the terrorists some semblance of hope that they would go back home after a successful raid," a top security official told Outlook. The fact that these two maps were fed into the GPS has confirmed that there was some help from people with a naval or army background, and had extensive knowledge of navigation at sea.

What security officials have also confirmed is the fact that most of the terrorists were from Punjab in Pakistan. The arrested terrorist, Azmal Amir Qasab, a resident of Chippalpura Taluka in Ukkad Zilla, Punjab, Pakistan has told his interrogators that the terrorists had trained for over two months, much of it on the Karachi coast for the naval leg. They were trained in basic rudiments of conducting naval commando raids, given extensive biefings on the layout of South Mumbai with adequate footage for familiarity and CDs of alleged "atrocities" carried out against Muslims in India. Qasab has also given details of how two of their operatives checked into the Taj Hotel last Saturday, November 22, with a lot of equipment. The duo received several visitors with huge bags, apparently carrying RDX for the two IEDs which were defused by the Mumbai police on the night of the first attack.

Meanwhile, investigators are poring through the call data details downloaded from the satellite phone also recovered from the abandoned trawler. Many of the call details have revealed numbers that have been traced back to the LeT's chief of operations, Muzamil, as well as to Lakhvi. Interestingly, the international SIM cards recovered from the bodies of the killed terrorists correspond to the intelligence picked up earlier, when Muzamil had asked his Bangladesh operative Yayah, to procure them. He apparently also procured the fake Mauritian identity card recovered by the marine commandos.

Top security sources have also told Outlook that the intercepts made by the intelligence agencies while the NSG commando assault was underway clearly indicates that the terrorists were speaking to their handlers in Pakistan. Among the instructions passed on to them during the nearly 62-hour crisis were to throw grenades indiscriminately if they were in danger of being overpowered and to start fake negotiations to prolong the crisis.In fact, two such attempts at negotiations were made at Nariman Bhawan and the Oberoi-Trident hotel to stave off an impending assault, even though the terrorists had already killed the hostages.

In the days to come investigators will have to continue putting the pieces of the puzzle together to create a more comprehensive picture of the attack. Hidden among them will be key lessons on how to prevent similar attacks in the future.

Offline tomahawk6

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Re: Mumbai rocked by series of fatal shootings
« Reply #59 on: November 29, 2008, 19:58:05 »

Offline Thucydides

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Re: Mumbai rocked by series of fatal shootings
« Reply #60 on: November 29, 2008, 22:23:38 »
Further analysis:

http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=YTk5YzgwZDc3NTliMDAwM2QxOGNjOWRmNTZjZTZmNDY=&w=MA==

Quote
It’s Not the Cold War
Updating strategy to fight the ideology.

By Mark Steyn

When terrorists attack, media analysts go into Sherlock Holmes mode, metaphorically prowling the crime scene for footprints, as if the way to solve the mystery is to add up all the clues. The Bombay gunmen seized British and American tourists. Therefore, it must be an attack on Westerners!

Not so, said Newsweek’s Fareed Zakaria. If they’d wanted to do that, they’d have hit the Hilton or the Marriott or some other target-rich chain hotel. The Taj and the Oberoi are both Indian owned, and popular watering holes with wealthy Indians.

Okay, how about this group that’s claimed credit for the attack? The Deccan Mujahideen. As a thousand TV anchors asked on Wednesday night, “What do we know about them?”

Er, well, nothing. Because they didn’t exist until they issued the press release. “Deccan” is the name of the vast plateau that covers most of the triangular peninsula that forms the lower half of the Indian sub-continent. It comes from the Prakrit word “dakkhin, which means “south.” Which means nothing at all. “Deccan Mujahideen” is like calling yourself the “Continental Shelf Liberation Front.”

Okay. So does that mean this operation was linked to al-Qaeda? Well, no. Not if by “linked to” you mean a wholly owned subsidiary coordinating its activities with the corporate head office.

It’s not an either/or scenario, it’s all of the above. Yes, the terrorists targeted locally owned hotels. But they singled out Britons and Americans as hostages. Yes, they attacked prestige city landmarks like the Victoria Terminus, one of the most splendid and historic railway stations in the world. But they also attacked an obscure Jewish community center. The Islamic imperialist project is a totalitarian ideology: It is at war with Hindus, Jews, Americans, Britons, everything that is other.

In the ten months before this week’s atrocity, Muslim terrorists killed over 200 people in India and no-one paid much attention. Just business as usual, alas. In Bombay, the perpetrators were cannier. They launched a multiple indiscriminate assault on soft targets, and then in the confusion began singling out A-list prey: Not just wealthy Western tourists, but local orthodox Jews, and municipal law enforcement. They drew prominent officials to selected sites, and then gunned down the head of the antiterrorism squad and two of his most senior lieutenants. They attacked a hospital, the place you’re supposed to take the victims to, thereby destabilizing the city’s emergency-response system.

And, aside from dozens of corpses, they were rewarded with instant, tangible, economic damage to India: the Bombay Stock Exchange was still closed on Friday, and the England cricket team canceled their tour (a shameful act).

What’s relevant about the Mumbai model is that it would work in just about any second-tier city in any democratic state: Seize multiple soft targets and overwhelm the municipal infrastructure to the point where any emergency plan will simply be swamped by the sheer scale of events. Try it in, say, Mayor Nagin’s New Orleans. All you need is the manpower. Given the numbers of gunmen, clearly there was a significant local component. On the other hand, whether or not Pakistan’s deeply sinister ISI had their fingerprints all over it, it would seem unlikely that there was no external involvement. After all, if you look at every jihad front from the London Tube bombings to the Iraqi insurgency, you’ll find local lads and wily outsiders: That’s pretty much a given.

But we’re in danger of missing the forest for the trees. The forest is the ideology. It’s the ideology that determines whether you can find enough young hotshot guys in the neighborhood willing to strap on a suicide belt or (rather more promising as a long-term career) at least grab an AK and shoot up a hotel lobby. Or, if active terrorists are a bit thin on the ground, whether you can count at least on some degree of broader support on the ground. You’re sitting in some distant foreign capital but you’re minded to pull off a Bombay-style operation in, say, Amsterdam or Manchester or Toronto. Where would you start? Easy. You know the radical mosques, and the other ideological-front organizations. You’ve already made landfall.

It’s missing the point to get into debates about whether this is the “Deccan Mujahideen” or the ISI or al-Qaeda or Lashkar-e-Taiba. That’s a reductive argument. It could be all or none of them. The ideology has been so successfully seeded around the world that nobody needs a memo from corporate HQ to act: There are so many of these subgroups and individuals that they intersect across the planet in a million different ways. It’s not the Cold War, with a small network of deep sleepers being directly controlled by Moscow. There are no membership cards, only an ideology. That’s what has radicalized hitherto moderate Muslim communities from Indonesia to the Central Asian stans to Yorkshire, and coopted what started out as more or less conventional nationalist struggles in the Caucasus and the Balkans into mere tentacles of the global jihad.

Many of us, including the incoming Obama administration, look at this as a law-enforcement matter. Bombay is a crime scene, so let’s surround the perimeter with yellow police tape, send in the forensics squad, and then wait for the DA to file charges. There was a photograph that appeared in many of the British papers, taken by a Reuters man and captioned by the news agency as follows: “A suspected gunman walks outside the premises of the Chhatrapati Shivaji Terminus or Victoria Terminus railway station.” The photo of the “suspected gunman” showed a man holding a gun. We don’t know much about him — he might be Muslim or Episcopalian, he might be an impoverished uneducated victim of western colonialist economic oppression or a former vice-president of Lehman Bros embarking on an exciting midlife career change — but one thing we ought to be able to say for certain is that a man pointing a gun is not a “suspected gunman” but a gunman. “This kind of silly political correctness infects reporters and news services world-wide,” wrote John Hinderaker of Powerline. “They think they’re being scrupulous — the man hasn’t been convicted of being a gunman yet! — when in fact they’re just being foolish. But the irrational conviction that nothing can be known unless it has been determined by a court and jury isn’t just silly, it’s dangerous.”

Just so. This isn’t law enforcement but an ideological assault — and we’re fighting the symptoms not the cause. Islamic imperialists want an Islamic society, not just in Palestine and Kashmir but in the Netherlands and Britain, too. Their chances of getting it will be determined by the ideology’s advance among the general Muslim population, and the general Muslim population’s demographic advance among everybody else.

So Bush is history, and we have a new president who promises to heal the planet, and yet the jihadists don’t seem to have got the Obama message that there are no enemies, just friends we haven’t yet held talks without preconditions with. This isn’t about repudiating the Bush years, or withdrawing from Iraq, or even liquidating Israel. It’s bigger than that. And if you don’t have a strategy for beating back the ideology, you’ll lose.

Whoops, my apologies. I mean “suspected ideology.”

© 2008 Mark Steyn
Dagny, this is not a battle over material goods. It's a moral crisis, the greatest the world has ever faced and the last. Our age is the climax of centuries of evil. We must put an end to it, once and for all, or perish - we, the men of the mind. It was our own guilt. We produced the wealth of the world - but we let our enemies write its moral code.

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Re: Mumbai rocked by series of fatal shootings
« Reply #61 on: November 29, 2008, 23:42:24 »
India terrorist attack blamed on 10 armed men
60-hour rampage killed at least 195; 'we will recover,' says one resident

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27957539/
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Re: Indian Navy showcases rising might
« Reply #62 on: December 01, 2008, 14:55:56 »
Wonder why it took Indian Police, Army @ Commandoes 4 days to overcome 10 terriorists  who caused 175 deaths + hundreds wounded.   

Offline tomahawk6

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Re: Mumbai rocked by series of fatal shootings
« Reply #63 on: December 01, 2008, 20:22:09 »
Terrorist beaten by angry police and mob.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eauxgve-_Vk

Offline MediPea

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Re: Mumbai rocked by series of fatal shootings
« Reply #64 on: December 01, 2008, 21:40:24 »
My uncle is there working right now. He's due to come home in a week or so. Thankfully he's been safe so far throughout this ordeal. Thoughts to the families of the wounded/killed.

Offline daftandbarmy

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Re: Mumbai rocked by series of fatal shootings
« Reply #65 on: December 02, 2008, 00:50:27 »
More 'we told you so':

US intelligence warned India of Mumbai attack in mid-October – Report

December 1, 2008, 11:22 PM (GMT+02:00)

DEBKAfile's intelligence sources report that the Indian spy agency RAW (the Research and Analysis Wing) caught wind of a terrorist threat for Mumbai in late August, three months before the event. More information was collected by RAW during September and October about the shape of the attack and its targets and passed to the American NSA.
The American ABC TV reported on Dec. 1 that Indian intelligence also intercepted a satellite phone call to a number in Pakistan known to be used by a leader of the Kashmiri Lashkar e-Taiba, which is accused of staging the Mumbai attack. This group is known for its ties to al Qaeda and Pakistani Inter-Services Intelligence. This enabled the American NSA to monitor the calls terrorists made by Thuraya mobile communications system satellite phones. That is how they were able to warn their Indian counterparts in mid-October of a potential attack "from the sea against hotels and business centers in Mumbai," as ABC reported. The Taj Palace Hotel was mentioned.
DEBKAfile's sources add that the Thuraya 3 satellite system serves a population of 2.3 billion in the Middle East and Asia. Owned by Abu Dhabi, many of its clients are Muslim.
The warning was relayed by US government agencies to the Manmohan Singh government which passed it on to political officials in Mumbai, India's financial capital.
There it stopped. The warning never reached the city's security or marine authorities which might have intercepted the terrorists' boats as they landed. Indian's special counter-terror units were taken completely by surprise when the Islamists struck the city Wednesday, Nov. 26.
These revelations raise two troubling questions: Why did the Indian government fail to act to pre-empt the terrorist attack? And why did the Bush administration, when it was clear that the Indians were doing nothing, not issue a public warning about a terrorist attack in the making as it has done in former cases?
At all events, the disclosure about the communications between US and Indian intelligence refutes the comment from US Secretary of state Condoleezza Rice in London that Washington had no information linking the Mumbai attack to Pakistan.

http://www1.debka.com/headline_print.php?hid=5748
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India's Muslim clerics refuse to bury 'demon' gunmen
« Reply #66 on: December 02, 2008, 14:17:03 »
This is what the turning of the tide sounds like...


http://www.thestar.com/News/World/article/547107

Krittivas Mukherjee
Reuters News Agency

MUMBAI – Mumbai's top Muslim clerics vowed on Tuesday to block the burial of nine Islamist militants who killed 183 people in a three-day rampage last week, saying their acts were an affront to Islam.

"Such demons – they will not find an inch of land in any Muslim cemetery," Maulana Sayed Moinuddin Ahsraf, secretary of the All-India Sunni Jamiat-ulema, told Reuters.

He spoke after a meeting of Muslim clerics and leaders from the Indian state of Maharashtra, of which Mumbai is the capital.

In past attacks by Islamists in India, attackers killed have been buried. The ordinary practice is for Muslim burials to be conducted quickly, within a few hours of death.

"Just because you call yourself Musa, Azim or Rehman you don't become a Muslim. These people who carried out such attacks cannot be," said Syed Noori, another Muslim leader who attended Tuesday's meeting.

Ten Islamist militants armed with AK-47s and grenades let loose on two of Mumbai's best-known luxury hotels and other landmarks across the city of 18 million during a 60-hour frenzy that ended when commandos killed the ninth gunmen.

A 10th was arrested after a mob set upon him.

India's minority Muslims, forming about 13 per cent of the 1.1 billion population, have felt under siege every time Islamist militants launched an attack in the country.

"We have even written to the government conveying our decision. Our Muslim brothers across the country are unanimous about it," he told Reuters.

Asked what could be done with the bodies Noori said: "That's the government's headache."
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Re: India's Muslim clerics refuse to bury 'demon' gunmen
« Reply #67 on: December 02, 2008, 15:29:06 »
Good for them!
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Re: India's Muslim clerics refuse to bury 'demon' gunmen
« Reply #68 on: December 02, 2008, 17:08:19 »
Positive proof that extremism doesn't personify Islam.
Train like your life depends on it.  Some day, it may.

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Re: India's Muslim clerics refuse to bury 'demon' gunmen
« Reply #69 on: December 02, 2008, 17:44:57 »
Hopefully this indeed is the tipping point for the supposed silent majority and we might see further demonising of these assrats.

It is indeed a sin against Islam, so my wife tells me.  It can be difficult at times for me to remember and not paint them all with the same brush. 

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Re: Mumbai rocked by series of fatal shootings
« Reply #70 on: December 02, 2008, 21:25:11 »
A Solemn Israel Buries Dead From Mumbai Attack

December 2, 2008  New York Times

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/03/world/middleeast/03funerals.html?em

 JERUSALEM — A somber Israel on Tuesday buried six victims of last week’s terrorist attack on a Jewish outreach center in Mumbai, India.

Two of the victims, Rabbi Gavriel Holtzberg, 29, and his wife, Rivka, 28, were serving as emissaries in India for the Hasidic Chabad-Lubavitch movement when they were killed. They were buried side by side after dark in the Chabad portion of the ancient Jewish cemetery on the Mount of Olives in Jerusalem.

The rabbi, who held dual Israeli and American citizenship, and his wife, an Israeli, had run the center in Mumbai for the past five years.

Israelis have been deeply moved by the story of the couple and their son Moshe, 2, who survived the attack on the center when his Indian nanny scooped him up and escaped from the building more than 12 hours into the bloody siege.

Moshe arrived in Israel on Monday night, along with his nanny, Sandra Samuel, and Mrs. Holtzberg’s father, on an Israeli Air Force flight that transported the six bodies.

Chabad spokesmen said the couple were buried near their eldest son, who died two years ago of Tay-Sachs, a genetic disease. A middle son is hospitalized in Israel with the same illness.

The memorial ceremony started hours earlier in Kfar Chabad, a village south of Tel Aviv where there is a replica of the red-brick building at 770 Eastern Parkway in the Crown Heights section of Brooklyn, the world headquarters of Chabad.

President Shimon Peres, Defense Minister Ehud Barak, the opposition leader, Benjamin Netanyahu, the chief rabbis of Israel and the Indian ambassador attended the service at Kfar Chabad.

“For several days now, the whole world has had to answer the question of a small child, Moshe, who is asking, ‘Where is my mother?’ ” Mr. Peres said in his eulogy. “The world must answer why a wonderful woman like Rivka was killed, why a holy man like Gavriel was killed and why Moshe is left an orphan. We will not rest and we will not relax until an answer is found.”

In his eulogy, Rabbi Moshe Kotlarsky, the chairman of Chabad’s education arm, said of the orphaned boy: “You will be the child of the entire nation of Israel. You are an emissary, and an emissary you shall remain.”

Mrs. Holtzberg’s father revealed in his speech that his daughter was pregnant at the time she was slain.

Among the other hostages buried on Tuesday in Israel was Aryeh Leibish Teitelbaum, 38, a kosher food supervisor and the father of eight. A member of an ultra-Orthodox sect that opposes Zionism, Mr. Teitelbaum, an American, rejected Israeli citizenship though he lived in Jerusalem. His family requested a funeral without state symbols.

Another of those buried, Norma Schwartzblatt-Rabinowitz, 50, from Mexico, had planned to immigrate to Israel via India this week.

Rabbi Motti Seligson, a spokesman for Chabad in Brooklyn, said that more than two dozen people from the Crown Heights community flew to Israel for the funeral of Rabbi Holtzberg and his wife. At the Lubavitcher Yeshiva in Brooklyn, more than 1,000 people gathered at 6 a.m. Tuesday to watch a live feed of the two-and-a-half-hour funeral, which was recorded and is available at the Web site www.chabad.org.

Liz Robbins contributed reporting from New York.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2008, 21:39:25 by leroi »

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Re: Mumbai rocked by series of fatal shootings
« Reply #71 on: December 03, 2008, 07:14:46 »
Shared in accordance with the "fair dealing" provisions, Section 29, of the Copyright Act.

Taliban say they'll help army fight India
Offer to Pakistan viewed as attempt to escalate tensions

Chris Brummitt, Associated Press, 3 Dec 08
Article link

Taliban fighters battling Pakistani soldiers near the Afghan border volunteered yesterday to fight alongside the army if war breaks out with traditional foe India over the Mumbai attack.

Analysts say the offer is meant to fan the flames of anti-Hindu sentiment and draw support away from Islamabad's fight against al-Qaida and Taliban militants in tribal regions close to Afghanistan.

The government, which is appealing for calm, has not responded.

"That is what they would love, to see the attention of the Pakistan army shift from the tribal areas to the eastern border with India," said defense analyst Hasan Askari Rizvi.

The Taliban's offer came in a video recording by its deputy chief, Maulvi Faqir Mohammad, that was made available to reporters yesterday.

"If India launches a war on Pakistan, we will divide the fight into two parts. The air defense will be the responsibility of the military, and the Tehrik-e-Taliban Pakistan will fight the war on ground," he said. "If it makes a mistake to attack Pakistan, Tehrik-e-Taliban will defend Pakistan and Islam."....

More on link
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Offline tomahawk6

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Re: Mumbai rocked by series of fatal shootings
« Reply #72 on: December 03, 2008, 20:28:09 »
These weapons were captured from the dead tango's.Pakistan Ordinance Factories manufactures these weapons under license from HK, and they are under the control of the Pakistani Ministry of Defense.Pretty strong link I would say.


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Re: Mumbai rocked by series of fatal shootings
« Reply #73 on: December 04, 2008, 00:22:04 »
The terrorist attacks in Mumbai this past week were extremly tragic. What scares me even moreso, however, is that something like that could happen here in Canada or the United States, and Canada could be to blame for it just like Pakistan is being blamed by India. Canada is seen as a safe haven to terrorists, and is home to the most terrorist organizations in the world besides the United States. If a major attack happened in the US from terrorists who lived in Canada, we could be in big trouble. It's time Canada stiffens its immigration policy and does more to weed out the terrorists in our country.

Offline Carcharodon Carcharias

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Re: Mumbai rocked by series of fatal shootings
« Reply #74 on: December 04, 2008, 03:41:14 »
These weapons were captured from the dead tango's.Pakistan Ordinance Factories manufactures these weapons under license from HK, and they are under the control of the Pakistani Ministry of Defense.Pretty strong link I would say.



TH6, are these MP5's POF made?? POF appear to have the latest plastic lowers. Go here for a squizz at POF http://www.pof.gov.pk/index.aspx navigate as required.

Cheers,

Wes
« Last Edit: December 04, 2008, 03:59:09 by Overwatch Downunder »
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