Author Topic: Sexual Assault & Sexual Misconduct in the CF  (Read 372677 times)

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Offline Bruce Monkhouse

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Re: Reservist sentenced for raping recruit
« Reply #25 on: January 17, 2008, 09:44:25 »
I've got to say that I find this kinda disturbing. As someone that is in the process of joining the CF. I've heard many stories of this happening. How are you to make sure you're safe in situations like these???

You heard wrong........................you want disturbing, come see the dirtbags in the revolving civilian justice system.

Compared to what most get, this moron got the book thrown at him......


..and lastly, if your life is still being driven by "hearing many stories" than you probably should try and grow up before you tackle a big-persons job.
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Offline Soldiergirl

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Re: Reservist sentenced for raping recruit
« Reply #26 on: January 17, 2008, 11:04:35 »

..and lastly, if your life is still being driven by "hearing many stories" than you probably should try and grow up before you tackle a big-persons job.

I was just stating my opinion and saying that I'd heard of this happening more then once. Not once did I state that I'd feel unsafe. I'd like to see the idiot that would try anything like this on me!! As for growing up...well I have been for quite some time now.

Look I was just asking for advice. I take offense to a statement like this. I, and many come on this site to find and learn from those that have the experience. Not to be insulted and talked down to. Thanks

Offline the 48th regulator

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Re: Reservist sentenced for raping recruit
« Reply #27 on: January 17, 2008, 11:11:14 »
I was just stating my opinion and saying that I'd heard of this happening more then once. Not once did I state that I'd feel unsafe. I'd like to see the idiot that would try anything like this on me!! As for growing up...well I have been for quite some time now.

Look I was just asking for advice. I take offense to a statement like this. I, and many come on this site to find and learn from those that have the experience. Not to be insulted and talked down to. Thanks

Did it ever occur to you that the words you "Heard many stories of this happening" may offend those of us that serve, or have served being tainted by such a statement.

Maybe Bruce's opinion is just as valid as you caustic question.

In fact, can you provide valid sources that back your statement?

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Offline PikaChe

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Re: Reservist sentenced for raping recruit
« Reply #28 on: January 17, 2008, 11:24:42 »
I was just stating my opinion and saying that I'd heard of this happening more then once. Not once did I state that I'd feel unsafe. I'd like to see the idiot that would try anything like this on me!! As for growing up...well I have been for quite some time now.

Look I was just asking for advice. I take offense to a statement like this. I, and many come on this site to find and learn from those that have the experience. Not to be insulted and talked down to. Thanks
I know you don't mean to tar all the men in CF with same brush, but a lot of soldiers get mildly annoyed when even implied with doing something that is totally unprofessional. And I know this is not what you mean.

It's a touchy subject for a lot of people, so everyone just take it easy

edit: If you're a girl and you're on a course, most likely you will get hit on. You're a girl, and most of the course is full of guys, esp. after couple of weeks of being CB'd and hormones being hormones. There's always few that can't handle their hormones and just lack discipline

Just don't flirt, and give the boys any ideas and if they don't respect your boundaries, tell them no. If it becomes unacceptable for you, talk to staff.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2008, 11:37:03 by HighlandFusilier »

Offline Soldiergirl

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Re: Reservist sentenced for raping recruit
« Reply #29 on: January 17, 2008, 11:48:16 »
It was never my intention to insult or offended anyone in the CF, for that I apologise. I'm married to a CF member. So believe me I'm sorry if anyone took what I said in the wrong context.

For many years I've wanted to be in the CF. But life has it's own way sometimes. Many people have tried to change my mind. It hasn't worked so far. So a few harsh words won't do it either. God you should hear the crap that will pop out of my husbands mouth. LOL

Anyway I'm sorry some were offended.

Offline muskrat89

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Re: Reservist sentenced for raping recruit
« Reply #30 on: January 17, 2008, 11:56:59 »
Let's get this back on track or it will be locked.

Pencil Tech - if you have a problem with moderation, use the "Report" function, or send Mike Bobbitt a PM. Period.

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Re: Reservist sentenced for raping recruit
« Reply #31 on: January 17, 2008, 12:27:56 »
I'm still a bit young but in my years I have: served in the Military, attended a post secondary institution and worked in remote areas, including offshore, for oil and gas...

And in all places I found the behaviour the same. Put boys and girls together in a living and working/learning environment and one or both sexes will make an attempt at nookie (eventually). And in my experience with all of these things it has always taken a simple "no" to deter someone from getting fresh any further. Throw booze into the mix and it escalates.

Point is - it happens everywhere and you are no more prone to getting hit on in the CF or in a remote drilling camp or a university dorm. As well, I believe that reports of sexual abuse and abuse in general are the exception rather than the rule, at least they have been in my experience.

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Re: Reservist sentenced for raping recruit
« Reply #32 on: January 17, 2008, 13:32:47 »
Wow, I had this guy on the same Driver Wheeled course as Pencil Tech..

Crazy.

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Re: Reservist sentenced for raping recruit
« Reply #33 on: January 17, 2008, 13:46:24 »
geo,

I was trying to take your comments further with my own experiences, not muddle yours.


Soldiergirl, a question for you:

You're married to a CF member, right? Why come here and ask the question when you have someone fully qualified to answer sharing a roof with you? I'm just curious as it seems rather odd that your husband wouldn't set your mind at ease about this one.

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Offline Soldiergirl

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Re: Reservist sentenced for raping recruit
« Reply #34 on: January 17, 2008, 14:02:22 »


Soldiergirl, a question for you:

You're married to a CF member, right? Why come here and ask the question when you have someone fully qualified to answer sharing a roof with you? I'm just curious as it seems rather odd that your husband wouldn't set your mind at ease about this one.



The reason I join on here was mainly to meet and get to know other people just starting out. My husband answers my questions the best he can. But he can't answer them all.

Offline eaduff

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Re: Reservist sentenced for raping recruit
« Reply #35 on: January 25, 2008, 23:16:38 »
I think if you look at the stats for "uninvited sex" on college/university campuses, the numbers would probably scare you.  As for the Military, we are hard core and disciplined but we are still from a rather varied cross section of society, so you will find those people who don't know that NO means NO.  It can happen at all rank levels to all rank levels and can be male on female, female on male, female on female or male on male .  The thing that must be done is to report it so we all can soldier on without fear.

 :cdn:

Offline Bruce Monkhouse

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Re: Reservist sentenced for raping recruit
« Reply #36 on: April 10, 2009, 10:54:13 »
http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Crime/2009/04/10/9075151-sun.html
Soldier wins second trial in sex case
By TONY BLAIS
The Edmonton Sun

Alberta's highest court has ordered a new trial for an Edmonton reserve unit soldier convicted of raping a female recruit at a party after a basic training course.

In a decision released yesterday, the Court of Appeal of Alberta quashed the Aug. 16, 2007, provincial court conviction of Orman Boyd Savage, 39, and directed him to appear in court on May 4 to set a trial date.
"There must be a new trial," said Justice Ron Berger. "We allow the appeal, vacate the conviction and so order."

The three-judge appeal panel ruled the trial judge erred by failing to properly use the Supreme Court legal test used in cases where both the alleged victim and the accused give opposing versions in their testimony.
Savage, a reserve master corporal, was sentenced to three years in prison on the conviction last January.

Judge Albert Chrumka called it a serious sexual assault that was aggravated by Savage taking advantage of a person who was inebriated and seeking assistance from him.
The 24-year-old victim testified at trial that she had passed out in a bathroom stall after a July 30, 2004, party at the Debney Armoury on Roper Road and when she awoke, she found Savage having sex with her.

Savage, testifying in his own defence, claimed the woman had tried to have sex with him when he was dazed after banging his head on the wall while helping her vomit.
The full-time electrician and part-time reservist, who is married with two sons, was charged after an interview by the Canadian Forces national investigation service.

Just before being led away in handcuffs, Savage was allowed to say goodbye to his wife and he reiterated that he was not guilty and told her he loved her.
In a victim impact statement, the woman tearfully spoke of losing her army career and hope of becoming a doctor.
"My life has been damaged irreversibly," she said at the time, telling court she suffers from depression and is being treated for post traumatic stress disorder (PTSD).

She added the lengthy court proceeding was "something that had to be done" because she believes this type of conduct happens often in the military and is "hushed up."
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Offline Otto Fest

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Re: Reservist sentenced for raping recruit
« Reply #37 on: April 10, 2009, 11:01:48 »
In all my decades instructing both RegF and Res I kept one simple rule - look but don't ever touch because nothing good can ever come of it.  And I have seen some strange sht.
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Offline mariomike

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Re: Reservist sentenced for raping recruit
« Reply #38 on: April 10, 2009, 13:42:06 »
Put boys and girls together in a living and working/learning environment and one or both sexes will make an attempt at nookie (eventually).

How is this for an cozy environment? You work 16 hour night shifts. Later reduced to 12. 1900-0700. Just the two of you cooped up all alone in a _tiny_ ambulance crew room in in the middle of suburban nowhere, or perhaps dowtown or in between. 40 ambulance stations scatterred across a city. I'm talking crew rooms not much bigger than a cubicle in size. No Captain or other crewmates to play chaperone. No nosey neighbours.  Just the 2 of you until your relief comes in at 0700. Just one unisex washroom. No kitchen/dormitory etc. Just a tiny - I mean CRAMPED - little room with one, perhaps two, couches jammed side by side. These 40 or so places ( everyone completely different than the other, private homes, funeral homes, abondoned garages, industrial plazas, water treatment plants, the old morgue, I could go on and on about the stations and their transient locations! They were - supposedly - temporary.  All were isolated. )  had been acquired  - never built - as ambulance stations long before there were any females on the job,  no one had given the above  any thought.
Nothing at all to do, except wait for the next call. Might not even be a TV set or telephone. No cellphones until recent years. Wasn't even night time TV, way back when.
Of course, being professionals, nothing untoward ever happened between partners, that I am aware of. But, try convincing the wives at home otherwise!
I hope this is sort of on topic?
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Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: Reservist sentenced for raping recruit
« Reply #39 on: April 10, 2009, 15:12:17 »
Quote
Savage, testifying in his own defence, claimed the woman had tried to have sex with him when he was dazed after banging his head on the wall while helping her vomit.
::)
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Offline Greymatters

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Re: Reservist sentenced for raping recruit
« Reply #40 on: April 11, 2009, 12:20:10 »
::)

Im sure many of us can pick holes in both side's stories but since we arent privy to all the information its not a productive exercise - its enough to say that since he got a re-trial there must have been enough doubt to substantiate it...






Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: Reservist sentenced for raping recruit
« Reply #41 on: April 12, 2009, 01:26:47 »
Im sure many of us can pick holes in both side's stories but since we arent privy to all the information its not a productive exercise - its enough to say that since he got a re-trial there must have been enough doubt to substantiate it...

For sure.
You've been in a while. I'm sure you like many of us have seen lots of crazy stuff.
NCOs being inappropriate with recruits.
Recruits getting off on NCO attention then getting scared and crying rape.
Both NCO and recruit entering into a dumb situation both being at fault.

I'm just laughing at his line of defence
"tried to have sex with him when he was dazed after banging his head on the wall while helping her vomit."
Sounds pretty hokey.
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Offline Greymatters

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Re: Reservist sentenced for raping recruit
« Reply #42 on: April 12, 2009, 20:02:17 »
For sure.
You've been in a while. I'm sure you like many of us have seen lots of crazy stuff.
NCOs being inappropriate with recruits.
Recruits getting off on NCO attention then getting scared and crying rape.
Both NCO and recruit entering into a dumb situation both being at fault.

I'm just laughing at his line of defence
"tried to have sex with him when he was dazed after banging his head on the wall while helping her vomit."
Sounds pretty hokey.

Cant argue with any of those points...

Offline Retired AF Guy

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Re: Reservist sentenced for raping recruit
« Reply #43 on: April 19, 2009, 12:09:18 »
In all my decades instructing both RegF and Res I kept one simple rule - look but don't ever touch because nothing good can ever come of it.  And I have seen some strange sht.

I wouldn't be to sure about that "just look" policy.  ;D
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Offline Blackadder1916

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Re: Reservist sentenced for raping recruit
« Reply #44 on: April 19, 2009, 13:48:57 »
Im sure many of us can pick holes in both side's stories but since we arent privy to all the information its not a productive exercise - its enough to say that since he got a re-trial there must have been enough doubt to substantiate it...

In most cases an appeal does not deal with the "facts" of the original conviction but rather the application of the law or the process of the original trial.  While there could have been some error in the conclusions reached by the trial judge (but without having access to all the evidence presented, we would just be making uninformed guesses) the issue that resulted in a new trial is well noted in the decision from the Alberta Court of Appeal.

http://www.canlii.org/en/ab/abca/doc/2009/2009abca139/2009abca139.html
Quote
[1]       The central legal issue in this appeal is whether the trial judge erred in law by defining the “main issue” at trial in the following terms:

“I think that the main issue is whether or not I accept your testimony as to what actually took place or whether I accept the complainant’s testimony, and as I have already indicated, I do choose to accept the testimony of the complainant. Hers is more rational. It is more reasonable to the point.”     (A.B. Digest, F2/43-47)


[2]       At A.B. Digest F3/14, the trial judge subsequently sets out the three pronged formulation in R. v. W.(D.), 1991 CanLII 93 (S.C.C.), [1991] 1 S.C.R. 742. Is that sufficient to cure the impugned approach? We think not. The model instructions set out in W.(D.) do not require a formalistic incantation. They are intended, however, to ensure that the trier of fact does not adjudicate a credibility contest but, rather, engages in an appropriate reasoning process that, read as a whole, adheres to those instructions. The reasons here, in our view, betray a casuistic result-driven approach, further exacerbated by the trial judge’s comment early in his brief judgment that “there is nothing in [the complainant’s] evidence that would indicate to me that I have to somehow or other reject her testimony ...” (A.B. Digest, F2/19-21)

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Offline M Feetham

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Re: Reservist sentenced for raping recruit
« Reply #45 on: May 08, 2009, 14:50:31 »
I know that there were a few problems with Instructor/Recruit liasons in St Jean when I was there, partly to blame on booze as well as bad decision by both parties. The school's solution was to restrict Instructors from comsuming alcohol during the recruits course parties at the Bistro. I have never seen Instructor's step over that line, however there was one guy from the Demo platoon that was charged with fraternization, he got something like 14 extras. It was not good. :cdn:
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Re: Reservist sentenced for raping recruit
« Reply #46 on: May 08, 2009, 15:48:15 »
Given the reason for the appeal -- conflicting stories without witnesses -- made me think of this story I just saw the other day.

http://thewhig.com/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=1556815&auth=SUE%20YANAGISAWA
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Offline Jingo

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Re: Reservist sentenced for raping recruit
« Reply #47 on: May 22, 2009, 10:19:09 »
Wow, I have seen this all to well... somtimes the younger recruits don't even think that it's wrong when it happens.
They get so swept up in everything (course/lifestyle) that somtimes justice just passes by because they don't acknoledge that what's going on is wrong.
Mind you what i'm talking about comes short of rape but still the sexual exploitation exists. I feel it is just as sick and I hope that thoses classes about harassment (when they are on bmq) focus more on what to look out for so that more people do not become victims.  :'(

BTW...This MCpl has got exactly what was coming to him. I hope those 3 yrs are hell for him. >:(

Offline ArmyRick

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Re: Reservist sentenced for raping recruit
« Reply #48 on: May 22, 2009, 12:00:49 »
IMO, the MCpl was out of line. Dazed and confused? She was in a drunken stupour? She was a recruit? He should have damn well known, hands off, end of story.

The other part that disturbs me is that the female says this happens more often and that the CF tries to cover it up. Umm, no, we don't. Ask the CF NIS how often this type of behaviour gets reported. As a recruit she is speaking out of turn. I would take her more seriously if say she had 10-15 years in the CF and something to base that remark on.
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Re: Reservist sentenced for raping recruit
« Reply #49 on: May 22, 2009, 12:14:55 »
I would take her more seriously if say she had 10-15 years in the CF and something to base that remark on.

The topic is recent claims of sexual harassment at recruit school; how would a comment be more credible, based solely upon 10-15 years' additional service since recruit school, when discussing current incidents?
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