Author Topic: A Columbine Father Speaks Out  (Read 18801 times)

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Offline IN HOC SIGNO

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Re: A Columbine Father Speaks Out
« Reply #25 on: May 15, 2007, 19:28:20 »
IHS - Your bit about "fully automatic assault rifles" is gratuitous, and quite frankly off-topic (I won't get into the redundancy of the phrase). None of the killers listed above used FA, none of the defenders used FA. Holly-wierd propaganda notwithstanding, FA isn't a great deal easier to obtain in the US than it is here.

To make the leap from debating CCW of a handgun by a trained and qualified non-felon, to decrying the free-love availability of personal machine guns (completely ignoring the fact that the notion is incorrect), is the height of faulty debating. It's blatant emotionalism, and suggests both a lack of understanding of the topic, and a prejudice that approaches "knee-jerk."

This is not the skilled auteur I have enjoyed reading in other threads. What happened?

Edit - "demonstrates" changed to "suggests". The original was too pompous and judgemental, even for me.  ;)

Sorry to disappoint you. I think I'm entitled to my opinion on this matter as you are entitled to yours. Suggesting that I somehow don't understand the issue is insulting to my intelligence and of course designed to belittle my opinion by writing it off as that of someone who has no business commentng on it. I have every right to offer my opinion on the topic. 

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Re: A Columbine Father Speaks Out
« Reply #26 on: May 15, 2007, 19:32:07 »
Why because i thank God that I live in the best country in the world bar none? I thank God that I don't live in the UK or France also. I've travelled to a lot of countries in the world and always thank God that I don't live in any of them but rather i live in this one...where I believe we have a unique and outstanding quality of life.

Thats not what you said in your post.........nice save, Dominic Hasek would be proud.

Lets carry on.........
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Offline Hunteroffortune

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Re: A Columbine Father Speaks Out
« Reply #27 on: May 16, 2007, 01:22:38 »
Why because i thank God that I live in the best country in the world bar none? I thank God that I don't live in the UK or France also. I've travelled to a lot of countries in the world and always thank God that I don't live in any of them but rather i live in this one...where I believe we have a unique and outstanding quality of life.

I thank God that I live in the best county in the world too  :cdn:, but I wonder how we can keep it that way. The only ones with guns are the criminals, this makes us easy targets. Even though we have restricted handguns since the 30's, they are readily available to the criminals. The Dawson College killer had legally registered guns, how did that happen?

You are entitled to your opinion, but have you thought about what other people might be going through? As a female, I am told to hold my car keys in my hand to defend myself, sure, as a small female, I'm going to be able to fight off a 200 pound male with a key? Why can't I have a gun? That would equalize the playing field, and maybe I have a fair chance of not being raped and killed. Just my opinion.

Offline KevinB

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Re: A Columbine Father Speaks Out
« Reply #28 on: May 16, 2007, 06:06:53 »
God made man -- Sam Colt made men equal...
  CCW for women is a huge issue, specifically from the disparity of mass that an attacker may have.  I for one, beleive as more women speak out on the horrors that have befallen them, that momentum will build in Canada to provide people the means to lawfully protect themselves from predatory parts of society.

The fact that based on American research that crime goes down when areas have CCW.  Unlike visions of the WildWest from TV, the fact bare out that people do not run out and go crazy when allowed to legally carry firearms for defensive purposes.

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Offline tank recce

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Re: A Columbine Father Speaks Out
« Reply #29 on: May 16, 2007, 16:26:38 »
Sorry to disappoint you. I think I'm entitled to my opinion on this matter as you are entitled to yours. Suggesting that I somehow don't understand the issue is insulting to my intelligence and of course designed to belittle my opinion by writing it off as that of someone who has no business commentng on it. I have every right to offer my opinion on the topic. 

IHS - You are of course entitled to your opinion, and to present it; in no way would I presume to attempt to shut you up, nor suggest that you tend to your knitting.

What prompted my comment was, along with reasonably presented concerns of what you feel to be the over-prevalence of handguns, your interjection into (what has become) a debate on the merits of CCW of a comment on the availability and necessity of "fully automatic assault rifles." Given that one has nothing to do with the other, I can only presume that either you truly do not know of which you speak (dubious), or you are trying to throw out an emotional red herring (disappointing, given the quality of posts and arguments I've seen from you).

If there is a third option, I would be delighted to read your presentation and debate the merits of your argument.
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Offline IN HOC SIGNO

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Re: A Columbine Father Speaks Out
« Reply #30 on: May 16, 2007, 18:26:53 »
IHS - You are of course entitled to your opinion, and to present it; in no way would I presume to attempt to shut you up, nor suggest that you tend to your knitting.

What prompted my comment was, along with reasonably presented concerns of what you feel to be the over-prevalence of handguns, your interjection into (what has become) a debate on the merits of CCW of a comment on the availability and necessity of "fully automatic assault rifles." Given that one has nothing to do with the other, I can only presume that either you truly do not know of which you speak (dubious), or you are trying to throw out an emotional red herring (disappointing, given the quality of posts and arguments I've seen from you).

If there is a third option, I would be delighted to read your presentation and debate the merits of your argument.

I don't agree that it was a red herring. the whole issue of the availability of firearms is one as far as I am concerned. If it's more complicated than that then I'll just have to be forgiven my ignorance. I think i stated what my opinion was fairly succinctly....I believe that there is a necessity to restrict handguns to those who enforce/keep the peace (and only when they are engaged in said duty...leave them at the garrison or office*)
Long guns for hunting need not be "automatic weapons" or the assault rifle type.

Those who collect or who have a a hobby target shooting should be licenced by a FAC after the appropriate training as they are now. I'm not naive enough to think that no one will ever use a weapon to commit a crime if we keep the status quo (I'm not a fan of the Liberal's long  gun registry btw....huge waste of time and money)

As far as statistics for areas where there are a lot of armed folks....well "...there are lies, there are damned lies and there are statistics." Who did the study? Why? etc etc. I don't put much stock in such things I'm afraid to say.

*we had an incidence here in NS where a RCMP officer discharged her weapon at home in a domestic dispute x9 into a wall......shouldn't even have been allowed to have the weapon in the home....no one was injured but I think her kid was somewhat traumatized.

Offline proudnurse

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Re: A Columbine Father Speaks Out
« Reply #31 on: May 17, 2007, 01:11:43 »
Well obviously your not well versed on US Gun laws
  To obtain a firearm in the US these days there is a NCICS done (National Criminal Instant Check System) -- the concept being that a free society one is inocent until proven guilty and non felons can buy firearms.  P.S. Most states (and now Va.) do not allow people that are reported to mental health to buy firearms either.
To be able to buy a handgun w/o a waiting period one will need that states CCW permit (and having the background and trainign for it already done).  Also you may not buy a handgun if from out of state.

WAY more people die from drunk driving that firearms -- and I dont see the outcry about that.
I'm sorry but its been proven that criminals who want guns will still get them regardless of the checks in place.  Secondly LONG guns are WAY more lethal than handguns -- your buying into the fearmongering of those who want to disarm the populace.




I gravitated to this thread yesterday, read a little bit of it and it got me thinking. And this question came to mind for me "What about drunk driving?" then I came back, read what you had stated here Infidel-6 and I said to myself Bingo (in reference to Drunk Driving!)  I have always felt, that the 'outcry' so to speak about the gun laws, has always been blown way out of proportion. How so many, are so quick to blame the 'gun' and not the person who is carrying it. A vehicle in itself can become a weapon of it's own depending on who is behind that wheel. You can walk into any car dealership, or flip through the classifieds and purchase a vehicle. Does not matter about your history, as long as you have the money you are good to go.

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Offline Accipiter

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Re: A Columbine Father Speaks Out
« Reply #32 on: May 17, 2007, 01:33:58 »
My opinions...

It would be really nice to think we could disarm the populace, and everyone would be safe and happy. Hooray. The problem with making firearms more difficult to obtain, is that it's only becoming more difficult for those who wish to legally own and use them. Criminals with intent to harm will still come by them just as easily, and, sad to say, that may never change.

In my uneducated opinion, if everyone was armed, and everyone KNEW that everyone else was armed, there would be less massacres. There may be more crimes of passion, spur of the moment type thing, but I am not well versed enough to say if it would be worth the tradeoff or not.

I figure it works with nuclear arms for the most part, everyone knows others have them, so they won't get used, at least for now.

They try to promote deterrence to reform criminals, but yet they can't fathom the idea that arming the populace may just be the deterrent needed.

-Paul
"People sleep peaceably in their beds because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."

Offline IN HOC SIGNO

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Re: A Columbine Father Speaks Out
« Reply #33 on: May 17, 2007, 05:50:36 »
I gravitated to this thread yesterday, read a little bit of it and it got me thinking. And this question came to mind for me "What about drunk driving?" then I came back, read what you had stated here Infidel-6 and I said to myself Bingo (in reference to Drunk Driving!)  I have always felt, that the 'outcry' so to speak about the gun laws, has always been blown way out of proportion. How so many, are so quick to blame the 'gun' and not the person who is carrying it. A vehicle in itself can become a weapon of it's own depending on who is behind that wheel. You can walk into any car dealership, or flip through the classifieds and purchase a vehicle. Does not matter about your history, as long as you have the money you are good to go.

~Rebecca



I think this is a bit of a stretch. Guns were specifically designed to kill or wound....cars are designed as transportation.

Offline KevinB

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Re: A Columbine Father Speaks Out
« Reply #34 on: May 17, 2007, 06:26:26 »
IHS - The problem is your obviously not conversant with shooting that much.  Your wanting to restrict my right and freedoms enjoying my sport based on the irrational fear of an inanimate onbect (a firearm).  The fact that your drawing a line between good and bad guns shows you've bought into someones idea that a gun is the cause.
  Quite frankly the fact is vehicles kill a lot more people in Canada than guns -- why does a car need to go more than 110kph?  Obviously is an EVIL racing car that has no purpose in society but to break the law and endanger others. 

  However the nice thing about living in a Liberal Democracy (well to the extent that Canada is still a liberal democracy with the enaction of all these nanny state laws) is that MY rights end at your face.  We can own guns, cars and practise freedom of religion.  As soon as one becomes a danger to society that is when the state steps in.  Not before -- its an important step in being FREE.
  A Police State is one where only the Gov't has firearms -- and I dont think anyone wants to live in a Police State (unless they are the ones controlling it -- then the rules dont apply to them anyway)

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Offline Teflon

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Re: A Columbine Father Speaks Out
« Reply #35 on: May 17, 2007, 08:32:07 »
Well said Infidel !
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Offline Samsquanch

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Re: A Columbine Father Speaks Out
« Reply #36 on: May 17, 2007, 16:37:40 »
 I really enjoy shooting my rifles and shotguns. I hunt all sorts of small game I.E toasters, ovens, T.V's and dishes...... When it comes to handguns and some types of assualt rifles in this country. I just don't understand why the laws are so restrictive.
 A motivated person wanting to do harm on another person can buy anything he\she wants (no respect for the laws). The recrectional shooter such as myself who is responsible, is often detered from buying handguns and certain makes of assualt rifles due to the limitations of use and transportation. Basically I feel the laws have no bearing on those who would intentionally break them. And those of us who enjoy going "blamin" on the weekends are punished....
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Offline KevinB

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Re: A Columbine Father Speaks Out
« Reply #37 on: May 17, 2007, 18:10:02 »
and a little art, cuz a picture is worth...







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Offline TCBF

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Re: A Columbine Father Speaks Out
« Reply #38 on: May 19, 2007, 00:59:32 »
You are entitled to your opinion, but have you thought about what other people might be going through? As a female, I am told to hold my car keys in my hand to defend myself, sure, as a small female, I'm going to be able to fight off a 200 pound male with a key? Why can't I have a gun? That would equalize the playing field, and maybe I have a fair chance of not being raped and killed. Just my opinion.

- Unfortunately, you have to realize that 'political' women in Canada believe that a raped and murdered female found with her pantyhose twisted around her neck makes for far better "sisterhood" optics than if she was found holding a smoking handgun over the dead body of her attacker.

"Disarming the Canadian public is part of the new humanitarian social agenda."   - Foreign Affairs Minister Lloyd Axeworthy at a Gun Control conference in Oslo, Norway in 1998.


"I didn’t feel that it was an act of violence; you know, I felt that it was an act of liberation, that’s how I felt you know." - Ann Hansen, Canadian 'Urban Guerrilla'(one of the "Squamish Five")

Offline NinerSix

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Re: A Columbine Father Speaks Out
« Reply #39 on: May 24, 2007, 09:22:27 »
Magic. That's the answer. It must be.

A few occupation in Canada carry firearms for work. We expect these people to use their judgement and only use these firearms when necessary. People Warriors who everyday put their life at risk, because they have answered the call of protecting the herd. Somehow, these people are not to be trusted with that responsibility once they take the uniform off.

I guess the uniform is magical and imbues the persons who wears it with knowledge and wisdom not attainable by mere human beings.
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Offline Sigs Guy

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Re: A Columbine Father Speaks Out
« Reply #40 on: May 27, 2007, 15:08:55 »
Quote
A few occupation in Canada carry firearms for work. We expect these people to use their judgement and only use these firearms when necessary. People Warriors who everyday put their life at risk, because they have answered the call of protecting the herd. Somehow, these people are not to be trusted with that responsibility once they take the uniform off.

I guess the uniform is magical and imbues the persons who wears it with knowledge and wisdom not attainable by mere human beings.

I obtained my firearms licence last year, however I fail to see how the regulations are all that strict. My brother was still able to buy five seperate firearms, as far as I'm concerned are current firearms policies work fine up here, and I'm happy as hell knowing that we don't live in a society which believes one must constantly be armed with a firearm in order to feel safe.

Quote
In my uneducated opinion, if everyone was armed, and everyone KNEW that everyone else was armed, there would be less massacres. There may be more crimes of passion, spur of the moment type thing, but I am not well versed enough to say if it would be worth the tradeoff or not.

America has a large amount of firearms per-capita as compared to the developed world yet has one of the highest rates of gun related deaths. Personally, I think if more people were to carry firearms in their cars for example I wouldn't feel all that safe. As well I don't think I should have to carry a firearm to feel protected.

Quote
I figure it works with nuclear arms for the most part, everyone knows others have them, so they won't get used, at least for now.

Yeah, I think thats a different comparison. As well I think for the most part we would be better off without nuclear arms.

Quote
They try to promote deterrence to reform criminals, but yet they can't fathom the idea that arming the populace may just be the deterrent needed.

It ain't, the one country that I can think of which has a large amount of firearms ownership is Switzerland, but even then the vast majority of the citizens have military training. I think if every joe sixpack were to be given a gun that would only cause more trouble, and I don't think we need a ton of weapons floating around society.

Quote
A Police State is one where only the Gov't has firearms -- and I dont think anyone wants to live in a Police State (unless they are the ones controlling it -- then the rules dont apply to them anyway)

Great Britian, Australia, and Japan, are all far from being "police states".

Quote
- Unfortunately, you have to realize that 'political' women in Canada believe that a raped and murdered female found with her pantyhose twisted around her neck makes for far better "sisterhood" optics than if she was found holding a smoking handgun over the dead body of her attacker.

Unless they end up wounding or killing two innocent bystanders as well.

Quote
I thank God that I live in the best county in the world too  , but I wonder how we can keep it that way. The only ones with guns are the criminals, this makes us easy targets. Even though we have restricted handguns since the 30's, they are readily available to the criminals. The Dawson College killer had legally registered guns, how did that happen?

You are entitled to your opinion, but have you thought about what other people might be going through? As a female, I am told to hold my car keys in my hand to defend myself, sure, as a small female, I'm going to be able to fight off a 200 pound male with a key? Why can't I have a gun? That would equalize the playing field, and maybe I have a fair chance of not being raped and killed. Just my opinion.

I've never felt the need to be armed with any weapon to feel safe from people. The idea that somebody needs to be armed to be safe is ridiculous.

I myself am somewhat in favour of the Swiss model, however arming a large amount of civilian's with no previous experience with firearms will do nothing to deter crime. I'm sure if one where to once again compare gun related deaths to any other industrialized country in the world the US is still near or on top. For the job that I want to do once I get out of the military I would feel alot safer knowing that their are fewer guns on the street.
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Offline IN HOC SIGNO

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Re: A Columbine Father Speaks Out
« Reply #41 on: May 27, 2007, 16:14:45 »
I agree wholeheartedly with you Sig Guy. More guns means more trouble.

Offline Sigs Guy

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Re: A Columbine Father Speaks Out
« Reply #42 on: May 27, 2007, 17:25:56 »
It's not necessarily more guns, but in my own view its the idea that people need guns because they are afraid. This notion that you need a gun to protect you from the rapist/murderer/robber/thug/gang member/etc. is ridiculous. I understand the importance of firearms ownership, especially living in a rural area and on a farm before I joined the military, however I don't see the need for every joe sixpack to be carrying around a Glock and Assault Rifle because of their irrational fear that somebody is going to hurt them.
"I submit to you that if a man hasn't discovered something that he will die for, he isn't fit to live. "
"Life's most persistent and urgent question is, 'What are you doing for others?' "

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Offline IN HOC SIGNO

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Re: A Columbine Father Speaks Out
« Reply #43 on: May 27, 2007, 20:25:22 »
It's not necessarily more guns, but in my own view its the idea that people need guns because they are afraid. This notion that you need a gun to protect you from the rapist/murderer/robber/thug/gang member/etc. is ridiculous. I understand the importance of firearms ownership, especially living in a rural area and on a farm before I joined the military, however I don't see the need for every joe sixpack to be carrying around a Glock and Assault Rifle because of their irrational fear that somebody is going to hurt them.

Yes I understood what you meant and I totally agree.

Offline Roy Harding

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Re: A Columbine Father Speaks Out
« Reply #44 on: May 27, 2007, 22:48:49 »
...
It ain't, the one country that I can think of which has a large amount of firearms ownership is Switzerland, but even then the vast majority of the citizens have military training. I think if every joe sixpack were to be given a gun that would only cause more trouble, and I don't think we need a ton of weapons floating around society.
...

I myself am somewhat in favour of the Swiss model, however arming a large amount of civilian's with no previous experience with firearms will do nothing to deter crime. I'm sure if one where to once again compare gun related deaths to any other industrialized country in the world the US is still near or on top. For the job that I want to do once I get out of the military I would feel alot safer knowing that their are fewer guns on the street.



I'm cherry picking your quotes here - only because they illustrate my own belief that serving/retired military and LEOs should be allowed to pack.  Their current and/or previous training gives them the required mindset to do so safely, and yet allows them to intercede when it appears necessary.  Should society want these folks (which includes me) given some type of psychological/psychiatric/competence test every pre-determined interim (yearly, every five years, whatever), I'm up for it.

I understand (and agree with) your point: untrained, untested firearm owners don't make the streets safer, they make them more dangerous.  My counterpoint would be that trained, tested firearm owners DO make the streets safer.



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Offline Sigs Guy

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Re: A Columbine Father Speaks Out
« Reply #45 on: May 27, 2007, 23:35:30 »
Quote
I'm cherry picking your quotes here - only because they illustrate my own belief that serving/retired military and LEOs should be allowed to pack.  Their current and/or previous training gives them the required mindset to do so safely, and yet allows them to intercede when it appears necessary.  Should society want these folks (which includes me) given some type of psychological/psychiatric/competence test every pre-determined interim (yearly, every five years, whatever), I'm up for it.

Which I somewhat agree with, the Swiss currently ask people to do a mandatory service in the military and then allow member to bring their uniform and assault rifle home with them once they are done. In fact the Swiss claim that they can mobilize most of their nation within 12 hours if required. As for people being allowed to pack in public if they are LEO's or military, I'm a member of blueline and it seems that some members of LE are uncomfortable with that idea, simply because it could lead to liability issues, same with the military.

Quote
I understand (and agree with) your point: untrained, untested firearm owners don't make the streets safer, they make them more dangerous.  My counterpoint would be that trained, tested firearm owners DO make the streets safer.

Depends, are streets are already pretty safe. I don't think that we need people carrying guns around to be safer, if we ever need LE then all it would take is a call to the police. The only possible exception I can see is if people were living out in rural areas where it can take a long time for LE to show up.

"I submit to you that if a man hasn't discovered something that he will die for, he isn't fit to live. "
"Life's most persistent and urgent question is, 'What are you doing for others?' "

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Offline NinerSix

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Re: A Columbine Father Speaks Out
« Reply #46 on: May 28, 2007, 00:22:42 »
Even in the city, the police can not guarantee you that they will be there in a timely fashion. I think 4-5 minutes is an average acceptable response time. Thats a pretty long time to be waiting when someone is bringing violence to you or your familly.

I don't need to carry a gun to FEEL safer. Chances are, I could go through life and never have to take my firearm out, if I was allowed ATC. But, if something happens, I would like another option than just turning and running away. You never know when you will run out of running room.

If you are going to quote me higher per capita gun death, bring me a reference. While you are at it, look up total numbers of violent death, rape and other violent assault, between Canada and the USA. It doesn't matter how, or with what you are victimized, all it matter is that you are.

You might be lucky enough to have been spared from the darker side of society and threats of violence. I, for one, grew up knowing how thin the veneer of society can be.

You can deny it all you want. You can "feel" as safe as you want. But once you have all the data, you will see that intellectually there is a chance that you, or a loved one, will be faced with violence. Will you accept it, like a sheep, and let them slit your throath. Or will you be ready?

Denial screams to me:"Baaaaaahhhhhh, Baaaaaaaaahhhh."

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Offline Roy Harding

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Re: A Columbine Father Speaks Out
« Reply #47 on: May 28, 2007, 00:31:55 »
...

Depends, are streets are already pretty safe. I don't think that we need people carrying guns around to be safer, if we ever need LE then all it would take is a call to the police. The only possible exception I can see is if people were living out in rural areas where it can take a long time for LE to show up.



Fair enough - I do live in a rural area, the police are a good three quarters of an hour away. 

Since living here, I've never felt the need for a firearm (for people, I mean - bears are another question) - the dog, followed up by me (sans weapon) has always been enough to get the occasional drunken ne'er do well on his way.  It's good for me to know, however, that while the dog and I are doing our thing, my wife is doing HER thing, getting the weapons out from the (approved, legal) lockup and loading them.  We've never needed them, but they've always been there - perhaps this proves my point that having been a soldier for most of my life, I understand escalation of force (IE - when you need to escalate, and when you don't).

I have also, however, lived in big cities - where the police may well be physically closer, and yet unable to respond in a timely manner; AND the ne'er do wells are not simply idiotically drunken kids - but evil little retards with mayhem on their minds.  I like the idea of a TRAINED element of society having possession of weapons.

I think you and I are in general agreement - but the devil's in the details.


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Re: A Columbine Father Speaks Out
« Reply #48 on: May 28, 2007, 01:25:49 »
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Even in the city, the police can not guarantee you that they will be there in a timely fashion. I think 4-5 minutes is an average acceptable response time. Thats a pretty long time to be waiting when someone is bringing violence to you or your familly.

If your home is being invaded I would assume the police would consider that a high priority. Even then how would you be able to get to your weapon in a timely fashion and what if it fell into the hands of the perp.

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If you are going to quote me higher per capita gun death, bring me a reference. While you are at it, look up total numbers of violent death, rape and other violent assault, between Canada and the USA. It doesn't matter how, or with what you are victimized, all it matter is that you are.

If your carrying a firearm out of fear, then chances are that you will use it irrationaly. I'm not afraid of being "victimized", and if I am then I will go to the police. I have a feeling we'd see more innocent bystanders get shot because someone over reacted and thought they were going to be killed, raped, or robbed.

Statistics for the United States.

http://www.nationmaster.com/cat/cri-crime

Total crime per capita in the world- #8
Assaults per capita- #6
Firearms homicide per capita- #8
Overall homicide rate per capita- #14
Murders per capita- #24 [to put this in perspective, Canada was at 44, Australia at 43, and the United Kingdom at 46]
Murders with firearms per capita- #8 [while Canada was at 20, Australia at 27, and the United Kingdom at 32]

Personally I feel safer knowing that people aren't walking around with guns because they think that the person standing next to them is a rapist, thug, or serial killer. It will only lead to trouble.

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You can deny it all you want. You can "feel" as safe as you want. But once you have all the data, you will see that intellectually there is a chance that you, or a loved one, will be faced with violence. Will you accept it, like a sheep, and let them slit your throath. Or will you be ready?

Canada has a much lower violent crime rate than the US, despite the fact they have more guns than Canada, same with Great Britian and Australia. As for "being ready", I don't feel like standing guard at my door with a shotgun because I'm afraid of the rapist, serial killer, or thug. But I'll wait a few weeks to see if anybody is about to slit my throat. I've been through most major cities in Canada, including some of the poorer parts of them and have yet to face the kind of danger that you have. Even when people have been confrontational I knew how to handle the situation instead of automatically thinking of a way to maim them, and hell I don't think I would want to kill or shoot someone, even if they were to steal my wallet.

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Denial screams to me:"Baaaaaahhhhhh, Baaaaaaaaahhhh."

Unfortunately statistics scream at me as well, so far they don't paint a rosey picture of our neighbours down south who live in so much fear of criminals that they feel the need to buy guns instead of actually dealing with any of the issues which cause crime. Anytime people are motivated by fear they usually end up doing stupid things.

As well while I lived on the family farm we would often have people stealing gas, stealing trucks, stealing equipment, and on the odd occasion burning bales of hay. However despite this we never felt the need to use the firearm to protect us, nor store it under our pillows incase the intruders ever got into the house. If you can the best course of action is to call the police and fine somewhere safe to hide or go to the neighbours, I'm sure that most police officers would agree with that. As well if a criminal does get into your house how will you be able to get to your firearm if it is properly stored away, unless you have it near you it won't do much. You also have to take into account what will happen if the perp gets his hands on the firearm.

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It's good for me to know, however, that while the dog and I are doing our thing, my wife is doing HER thing, getting the weapons out from the (approved, legal) lockup and loading them.  We've never needed them, but they've always been there - perhaps this proves my point that having been a soldier for most of my life, I understand escalation of force (IE - when you need to escalate, and when you don't).

Most civilian's don't know about IE, that is my position. Its fine for LE and military personal but for your average civilian who has never used firearms professionally they aren't in the same league. My brother bought some firearms and we went to shoot some of them off, and I found myself constantly correcting him on how to properly use them simply because their isn't enough education out there. Thats the difference between the US and the Swiss with regards to firearms ownership, I have a problem with a system where any person can get their hands on a high powered weapon or handgun.

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Re: A Columbine Father Speaks Out
« Reply #49 on: May 28, 2007, 02:32:18 »
Your main argument seems to revolve around fear. There is a difference between being afraid and being ready. Police officers carry sidearm, not because they fear something will happen, but because they have to be ready. They do not walk around, pulling their pistols to anyone who gives them lip, or anytime a confrontation happens. I think it is reasonable to assume people outside of the law enforcement and military are capable of the same "restraint".

No one (at least no one I know) is arguing that people should settle every dispute and resolve any assault by shooting your assailant. There are varying degrees of force that can be used and before you get to force, you should try to use every means to build time and distance. Answering violence with violence or force should be a last resort when faced with serious or deadly bodily harm.

If you take a look at how many people decide to CCW in the USA, you will see that it is a small number of people. This small number of people has a disproportionate effect on the crime rate of state where CCW is allowed. (Deployed DWAN Internet is slow, so as I write this, the site you gave me hasn't uploaded yet. But let me venture that the numbers on there are not broken down by individual states. I bet it would show that states with CCW have a much lower crime rate than the ones that don't, who hence raise the national average. Edit: Also, I am weary of stats that have been compiled. There is no source attached on the website you gave us. AFAIK, these might just be a bunch of random numbers pulled out of someone’s ***.)

The civilians in Canada, who aspire to be allowed to ATC, that I have met, are rational individual, who spend an inordinate amount of time making sure they are ready. These people will use all means at their disposition, including neighbours, police and everything else they can. But in the end, they want to be ready and self-reliant.

It is not like I am arguing for everyone to carry concealed weapons. What I am looking for is something like a month long course, with yearly qualification shoot and 3 year course refresher on use of force, that would allow you the privilege to ATC.

Indeed, education is the key. Fear of weapons, banning them and marginalizing its owners, is not the way to educate the population at large. Thinking I would shoot someone for stealing is right out of her, it goes to show more about your irrational fear of your law abiding citizen/neighbour, than my implied paranoia.


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« Last Edit: May 28, 2007, 03:02:06 by Dissident »
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