Poll

Is it normal to have your chain of command tell you to go have your P-Cat MEL's assessed immediately?

Is this normal?
1 (50%)
Or is it fishy?
1 (50%)

Total Members Voted: 2

Author Topic: PCAT info/questions (merged)  (Read 82362 times)

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Offline PMedMoe

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Re: PCAT info/questions (merged)
« Reply #25 on: April 15, 2010, 06:52:36 »
I agree with Vern.  I have one friend on a PCAT similar to Vern's "No career restrictions" and another who is "employable but not deployable".  Only the second one is being "retained" and is not eligible for promotions, career courses, etc.
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Offline ArmyRick

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Re: PCAT info/questions (merged)
« Reply #26 on: April 15, 2010, 08:05:08 »
Not deployable is a Geographical restriction. Part of your med category numbers.
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Re: PCAT info/questions (merged)
« Reply #27 on: April 15, 2010, 08:10:56 »
Not deployable is a Geographical restriction. Part of your med category numbers.

Yes, I know that.  "Employable not deployable" is just a common phrase used to describe some retentions.  Usually for those who don't understand the med cat numbers.   ;)
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Offline CountDC

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Re: PCAT info/questions (merged)
« Reply #28 on: April 15, 2010, 15:19:40 »
same - retained without career restrictions.

Was a surprise though when they passed me the nice letter that I had been under AR/MEL.  Wasn't even aware of it until they sent the decision letter to the unit.  What a shock it would have been to get a letter out of the blue that you are being released. The doctor didn't even tell me my cat was changed.
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Offline Chewie

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Re: PCAT info/questions (merged)
« Reply #29 on: January 20, 2011, 12:37:09 »
It depends on how they word your PCAT...you can have a PCAT and still be employable providing you meet your job spec.

OSI is a recognized illness and is treated as such...with all the benifits and care etc....

These programs are considered living breaching documents and can change for the better or the worse...

Offline the 48th regulator

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Re: PCAT info/questions (merged)
« Reply #30 on: January 20, 2011, 13:07:20 »
Hello, 4 questions:

-What happens after I am assessed a PCAT?
If you do not meet Universality of Sevice, you will be release under a medical release 3(A) or 3(B)


-With an OSI, is this any different in the eyes of the military from a physical injury? 

Treated as any other injury.


-What are the timelines?

If you do not meet UOS, then you are looking at 6-9 months until the process of a Medical release comences.

-This procedure is the same for everyone in the reg force starting the moment they swear unlimited liability to HM The Queen, correct?

Yes.


Thanks

Nemo Problema.  They are actualkly very good questions.

dileas

tess
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Offline Wookilar

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Re: PCAT info/questions (merged)
« Reply #31 on: January 21, 2011, 12:25:23 »
-What happens after I am assessed a PCAT?

Have you been assessed a PCAT? Just because the Base Surgeon/MO recommends a PCAT does not make it so. It still has to be approved by DMCA.

Now generally this is just a formality, but I have seen 1 (in the last 5 years or so) that was not approved.

Nothing release wise will happen until approval comes down from Ottawa. Then the process starts. I have seen approval take 6-8 months, I've seen it take 2 months.

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Offline krustyrl

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Re: PCAT info/questions (merged)
« Reply #32 on: January 21, 2011, 12:38:10 »
Seen it take considerably longer than 6-8 months too.  Just sayin'........

Offline recceguy

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Re: PCAT info/questions (merged)
« Reply #33 on: January 21, 2011, 13:40:32 »
Barring some catastrophic, obvious injury, is there also not a mechanism where you have to go through a couple of TCATS first, before getting a PCAT? Thought I heard that somewhere. Where's the SME?
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Re: PCAT info/questions (merged)
« Reply #34 on: January 21, 2011, 14:13:46 »
I spent 3 years on TCATs before a PCAT was "awarded".
Apparently, a "USUAL SUSPECT"

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Offline Hamish Seggie

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Re: PCAT info/questions (merged)
« Reply #35 on: January 21, 2011, 14:32:54 »
If you will allow me to weigh in, the process can be somewhat laborius and frustrating.

The general rule of thumb is that a member may be placed on a TCat for 6 months. After reassessement by the MO, the member may either come off TCat or be placed on another TCat. If it is another six month TCat, this may trigger a posting to the JPSU. The member will then undergo an Administrative Review - Medical Employment Limitations aka AR/MEL at DMCA Ottawa.

The AR may recommend the member to be retained with or without career restrictions, or released. In some cases, a member may undergo a OT to be retained.

In the case of release, the member receives a disclosure package. The member may make representation to DMCA within 15 working days to either make a case as to why they should be retained OR to change/amend the release item.




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Offline lacqui

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Re: PCAT info/questions (merged)
« Reply #36 on: January 21, 2011, 15:04:59 »
Barring some catastrophic, obvious injury, is there also not a mechanism where you have to go through a couple of TCATS first, before getting a PCAT? Thought I heard that somewhere. Where's the SME?

My PCAT was given almost immediately after a regular medical.  My vision had deteriorated during the time between medicals, no injury required.  About a month later (time for two re-tests), a PCAT recommendation was sent off; about 4 months later I was signing a "Change of permanent medical category" document.
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Offline recceguy

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Re: PCAT info/questions (merged)
« Reply #37 on: January 21, 2011, 15:11:30 »
If you will allow me to weigh in, the process can be somewhat laborius and frustrating.

The general rule of thumb is that a member may be placed on a TCat for 6 months. After reassessement by the MO, the member may either come off TCat or be placed on another TCat. If it is another six month TCat, this may trigger a posting to the JPSU. The member will then undergo an Administrative Review - Medical Employment Limitations aka AR/MEL at DMCA Ottawa.

The AR may recommend the member to be retained with or without career restrictions, or released. In some cases, a member may undergo a OT to be retained.

In the case of release, the member receives a disclosure package. The member may make representation to DMCA within 15 working days to either make a case as to why they should be retained OR to change/amend the release item.

Thanks Jim. That's the clarification I was looking for.
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Offline Hamish Seggie

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Re: PCAT info/questions (merged)
« Reply #38 on: January 21, 2011, 15:15:55 »
Not a problem. Just be aware that there is no "cookie cutter" solution to each particular problem/concern.

This is a general rule of thumb.
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Offline medicineman

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Re: PCAT info/questions (merged)
« Reply #39 on: January 21, 2011, 16:03:02 »
Barring some catastrophic, obvious injury, is there also not a mechanism where you have to go through a couple of TCATS first, before getting a PCAT? Thought I heard that somewhere. Where's the SME?

In theory, you should go through a couple of TCats prior to a PCat being initiated...however, like you said, something catastrophic could land you the instant PCat or something that is drawn out could get TCat extensions.  It largely depends on the condition, if it's improving or will likely improve, or if it's plateaued or never likely to change for the better and hwo much follow up is required.  If it continues to improve, a TCat extension is often warranted and approved...if it's plateaued, then they start to look at the PCat route.  And yes, it's a long drawn out affair...D Med Pol is not a fast moving place; it takes awhile to get through files.  When D Med Pol makes a decision vis a vis the actual numbers and restrictions, then DMCA gets in on the game to decide career actions, if any.  You basically have to get settled in for an uncomfortable wait.

Hope that helps a bit.

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Offline clericalchronicals

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Re: PCAT info/questions (merged)
« Reply #40 on: February 03, 2011, 12:49:07 »
If you do not meet Universality of Sevice, you will be release under a medical release 3(A) or 3(B)

Just a question, when was the last time anyone saw a 3A release?  I've been clerking for almost 10 years now and still have yet to see one....and that was having worked in a release section...

Offline the 48th regulator

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Re: PCAT info/questions (merged)
« Reply #41 on: February 03, 2011, 16:13:22 »
Just a question, when was the last time anyone saw a 3A release?  I've been clerking for almost 10 years now and still have yet to see one....and that was having worked in a release section...


Good question.

Here is one for you, have you heard of a 5(F) Disabled?

This is a conundrum that I have been finding the legalities for this past month.

dileas

tess




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Offline Hamish Seggie

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Re: PCAT info/questions (merged)
« Reply #42 on: February 03, 2011, 17:31:26 »
Yes. This is a term used for someone who would normally be 5F - what ever the terminology is, but because of underlying conditions (OSIs) are deemed disabled.
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Offline clericalchronicals

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Re: PCAT info/questions (merged)
« Reply #43 on: February 03, 2011, 17:41:03 »

Good question.

Here is one for you, have you heard of a 5(F) Disabled?

This is a conundrum that I have been finding the legalities for this past month.

dileas

tess

5F?  Something not right there.  5F is Unsuitable for further service, certainly not something you would use for disbility, that would have to be a 3B.

Random.

Offline Hamish Seggie

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Re: PCAT info/questions (merged)
« Reply #44 on: February 03, 2011, 17:53:28 »
5F?  Something not right there.  5F is Unsuitable for further service, certainly not something you would use for disbility, that would have to be a 3B.

Random.

I'm at home riight now and don't have the expert. You can use 5F deemed disabled. Its for those "in between cases" where the proof for a 3b isn't quite there.....but there clearly is something wrong. It allows the soldier to gain access to some benefits that they aren't entitled to under 5f.
If a member is to be released 5f, and there is clear cut evidence that there is a relationship between the behavior and his underlying condition, the release item may be changed to 3b.
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Offline the 48th regulator

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Re: PCAT info/questions (merged)
« Reply #45 on: February 03, 2011, 18:01:26 »
Aha,

That is the Crux,

If you are disabled, and are released it is under the Medical 3 category.  Further to that, I have proof that the CMP recommended anyone being released under a 5F is to be reviewed by DCSM, in that if there is reason that the member is suffering from an OSI, the benefit of the doubt goes to wards the member and he/she will be released under a 3B.

Been doing quite a bit of leg work, and hope to have all the cards in a row when I present this to my chain of command.

dileas

tess
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Offline clericalchronicals

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Re: PCAT info/questions (merged)
« Reply #46 on: February 03, 2011, 18:56:53 »
Aha,

That is the Crux,

If you are disabled, and are released it is under the Medical 3 category.  Further to that, I have proof that the CMP recommended anyone being released under a 5F is to be reviewed by DCSM, in that if there is reason that the member is suffering from an OSI, the benefit of the doubt goes to wards the member and he/she will be released under a 3B.

Been doing quite a bit of leg work, and hope to have all the cards in a row when I present this to my chain of command.

dileas

tess

Let me help that leg work along.  Ref QR&O 15, table. 

Item 5F and I quote "Unsuitable for Further Service - Applies to the release of an officer or non-commissioned member who, either wholly or chiefly because of factors within his control, develops personal weakness or behaviour or has domestic or other personal problems that seriously impair his usefulness to or impose an excessive administrative burden on the Canadian Forces."

Item 3B and again I quote "Medical Grounds - On medical grounds being disabled and unfit to perform his duties in his present trade or employment, and not otherwise advantageously employable under existing service policy."

So, no, if it is a disability as it's definition is known to National Defence, then no, it is impossible for someone under those circumstances to be released under Item 5F.  Even is 3B was shaky ground for that class of release, then Item 3A would come into play: "On medical grounds being disabled and unfit to perform duties as a member of the Service."

And yes, I do have the legal definition of "Disability": Sourced from the Veterans Affairs Canada Charter

1.04 - Definition of Disability
"Disability" is defined in subsection 3( 1) of the Pension Act as follows: "disability means the loss or lessening of the power to will and to do any normal mental or physical act;"

As you can tell, "the loss or lessening of the power to will", not something within a persons control.

Cheers!

Offline the 48th regulator

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Re: PCAT info/questions (merged)
« Reply #47 on: February 03, 2011, 19:02:49 »
Now you know the battle that I have been building up to!!

5F Disabled is being used, and has been for many years, as I have official confirmation from DCSM.  This is a blatant contradictory of the QR&O 15, as you have pointed out.

dileas

tess


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Offline clericalchronicals

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Re: PCAT info/questions (merged)
« Reply #48 on: February 03, 2011, 22:22:11 »
Release items seem to be one of the hardest to interpret policies...never really understood why, well, I guess people get wrapped up in the titles...

Offline the 48th regulator

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Re: PCAT info/questions (merged)
« Reply #49 on: February 03, 2011, 23:21:01 »
Release items seem to be one of the hardest to interpret policies...never really understood why, well, I guess people get wrapped up in the titles...

Apart from benefits, it is respect.

dileas

tess
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