Author Topic: Afghan Rapes & Canadian Soldiers' Duty  (Read 88541 times)

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Offline the 48th regulator

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Re: Afghanistani Rapes and Canadian Soldiers Duty
« Reply #25 on: June 17, 2008, 20:29:39 »
this is happening in the FOB's?

think you may have become part of the investigation!

I heard it was a civi problem...not in the fobs.

Where did I hear that before.....







If it is consensual, what is the difference between that and the guys going on leave and picking up young bar girls, etc?

Hmmm,

Well lemme see what the Canadian Troop observed;

Canadian soldiers in the main guard tower at forward operating base Wilson last summer winced when I asked about the sudden lineup of teenage boys along the mud walls of the neighbouring Afghan market.

"Wait a few minutes. You'll see," said one, his lip curling. "It's disgusting."

Sure enough, a handful of uniformed Afghan police officers emerged from their rundown detachment, walked through the barricades and started chatting up the dozen or so teens, some looking decidedly pre-teen.

A few minutes after they returned, the selected kids were waved through the main gates and went straight inside the police station. An hour later, when I left the observation post, the boys were still inside.

This evening ritual is often derided by soldiers as man-love Thursdays.

Does not make it okay, legal, or culturally acceptable.


If it is forced rape, charge his ***!! But before we go off on a tangent about saving the young lads, we need a whole lot more information as to whether this actually rape or a chickenhawk searching out a sugar daddy.....



So can Christopher Neil use this argument to defend himself?

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20080601/neil_thailand_080602/20080602?hub=CTVNewsAt11

Gents,

I saw the Jordanians holding hands when they went on patrol, I was told told that was culturally acceptable.  Let them fill their boots, or anything else they see appealing.

I even saw the rough treatment of the civvy population of Krajina, by their own defenders.  But had I seen them raping or molesting, they would have been lucky if a report to my commanders is all they got.

Bottom line, disgusting, and they should be stopped.  Pederasts are not a "cultural" acceptance.

dileas

tess
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Offline X-mo-1979

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Re: Afghanistani Rapes and Canadian Soldiers Duty
« Reply #26 on: June 17, 2008, 21:50:17 »
Where did I hear that before.....


Sorry I'm not following 48th.
Think I may have been misunderstood.

Offline the 48th regulator

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Re: Afghanistani Rapes and Canadian Soldiers Duty
« Reply #27 on: June 17, 2008, 21:53:12 »
Sorry I'm not following 48th.
Think I may have been misunderstood.

I heard it was a civi problem...not in the fobs.

Maybe I don't follow, explain.

dileas

tess

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Re: Afghanistani Rapes and Canadian Soldiers Duty
« Reply #28 on: June 17, 2008, 21:58:12 »
Quote from: GAP on Today at 16:37:24
If it is consensual, what is the difference between that and the guys going on leave and picking up young bar girls, etc?

Hmmm,

Well lemme see what the Canadian Troop observed;

Does not make it okay, legal, or culturally acceptable.

So can Christopher Neil use this argument to defend himself?

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20080601/neil_thailand_080602/20080602?hub=CTVNewsAt11


Bottom line, disgusting, and they should be stopped.  Pederasts are not a "cultural" acceptance.

dileas

tess


Nobody is questioning the need for a reaction to what the Canadian soldier witnessed, that is not what the comment was based on.

Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I´m not so sure about the universe

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Re: Afghanistani Rapes and Canadian Soldiers Duty
« Reply #29 on: June 17, 2008, 22:02:19 »
Nobody is questioning the need for a reaction to what the Canadian soldier witnessed, that is not what the comment was based on.



If it is consensual, what is the difference between that and the guys going on leave and picking up young bar girls, etc?


Where has it been reported that it was consensual?

dileas

tess
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Re: Afghanistani Rapes and Canadian Soldiers Duty
« Reply #30 on: June 17, 2008, 22:03:43 »
Where has it been reported that it was consensual?

dileas

tess


Actually my comment was based on the New York Times article posted earlier
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Re: Afghanistani Rapes and Canadian Soldiers Duty
« Reply #31 on: June 17, 2008, 22:06:51 »
Actually my comment was based on the New York Times article posted earlier

Which part?

dileas

tess
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Offline WB

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Re: Afghanistani Rapes and Canadian Soldiers Duty
« Reply #32 on: June 17, 2008, 22:38:18 »
The way I see it, it's about priorities.

The Afghans do alot of things that are pretty ****ed up by our standards, but we can't be picking fights with the ANA if we're going to work with them to defeat the Taliban. Somewhere down the road we'll encourage them to quit with the Man Love Thursdays, but in the short term we need to focus our efforts on killing the bad guys and establishing security.

It's not like you can just arrest an ANA guy like you would a Canadian soldier. If his buddies don't want him to be arrested, they WILL start a gunfight over it. Most of the time all you can do is shrug your shoulders and get back to dealing with the common enemy. Maybe once that country is stable they'll do things different. Untill then, I've got other things to worry about.

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Re: Afghanistani Rapes and Canadian Soldiers Duty
« Reply #33 on: June 17, 2008, 22:42:22 »
The way I see it, it's about priorities.

The Afghans do alot of things that are pretty ****ed up by our standards, but we can't be picking fights with the ANA if we're going to work with them to defeat the Taliban. Somewhere down the road we'll encourage them to quit with the Man Love Thursdays, but in the short term we need to focus our efforts on killing the bad guys and establishing security.

It's not like you can just arrest an ANA guy like you would a Canadian soldier. If his buddies don't want him to be arrested, they WILL start a gunfight over it. Most of the time all you can do is shrug your shoulders and get back to dealing with the common enemy. Maybe once that country is stable they'll do things different. Untill then, I've got other things to worry about.

What is your mission as a soldier then?

You would turn a blind eye to abuse, so that you can work with a few degenerates, that taint the whole ANA?

You would do nothing if you saw a rape, a murder, or some other form of indignity done by the "Allies"?

dileas

tess

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Re: Afghanistani Rapes and Canadian Soldiers Duty
« Reply #34 on: June 17, 2008, 23:03:51 »
Maybe I don't follow, explain.

dileas

tess



What I was trying to say,I have heard of things like "man love thursdays" but always didnt understand that it was happening in our FOB's.Never heard that before,find it kind of disturbing if it's true.That's all I meant.

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Re: Afghanistani Rapes and Canadian Soldiers Duty
« Reply #35 on: June 17, 2008, 23:07:10 »
What I was trying to say,I have heard of things like "man love thursdays" but always didnt understand that it was happening in our FOB's.Never heard that before,find it kind of disturbing if it's true.That's all I meant.

However,

Your post came across that you insinuated that it was a civvy problem, therefore we had no reason to intervene, am I correct?

Maybe I misinterpreted you post.

dileas

tess
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Offline WB

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Re: Afghanistani Rapes and Canadian Soldiers Duty
« Reply #36 on: June 17, 2008, 23:08:55 »
Quote
What is your mission as a soldier then?

You would turn a blind eye to abuse, so that you can work with a few degenerates, that taint the whole ANA?

You would do nothing if you saw a rape, a murder, or some other form of indignity done by the "Allies"?

My mission as a soldier is to help establish a secure environment so that the Government of Afghanistan can eventually stand on it's own so that terrorists can not use that country as a base of operations.

And we're not talking about a few degenerates here. We're talking about the whole culture. That sort of stuff doesn't change overnight, and we need to be ready to accept some things we don't like in favour of reaching long term goals.

The standard I apply to another Canadian soldier, an American soldier or Marine, or any other NATO troop doesn't have much to do with the standard I apply to the ANA. We belong to professional western militaries. The ANA are a 3rd world army with 3rd world ethics. We work with them for the same reason we work with guys like Dostum. It would be nice to have enough influential Afghans who havn't been accused of war crimes to fill government positions, but we can't have everything we want all at once. We need to take whatever we can get now, and encourage the government of Afghanistan to sort the rest out on their terms over the long haul.

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Re: Afghanistani Rapes and Canadian Soldiers Duty
« Reply #37 on: June 17, 2008, 23:25:32 »
My mission as a soldier is to help establish a secure environment so that the Government of Afghanistan can eventually stand on it's own so that terrorists can not use that country as a base of operations.

And we're not talking about a few degenerates here. We're talking about the whole culture. That sort of stuff doesn't change overnight, and we need to be ready to accept some things we don't like in favour of reaching long term goals.

The standard I apply to another Canadian soldier, an American soldier or Marine, or any other NATO troop doesn't have much to do with the standard I apply to the ANA. We belong to professional western militaries. The ANA are a 3rd world army with 3rd world ethics. We work with them for the same reason we work with guys like Dostum. It would be nice to have enough influential Afghans who havn't been accused of war crimes to fill government positions, but we can't have everything we want all at once. We need to take whatever we can get now, and encourage the government of Afghanistan to sort the rest out on their terms over the long haul.


At around 10am on 31 January 2008 a vehicle with the markings and number plate of the Afghan National Army (ANA) stopped near a water-point where Sweeta was filling her buckets, according to the Afghanistan Human Right Organisation (AHRO).

“The three men in the car grabbed her and drove to an army barracks where the commander raped her in his office,” said Lal Gul Lal, chairman of AHRO, who has provided legal support to the victim’s family.

The child was semi-conscious when the rapist dropped her home with some gifts, lying to her elder sister that she was hit by a car and was experiencing abdominal bleeding.

“She [Sweeta] was threatened that if she told anyone about the incident they would kill her parents,” Lal told IRIN in Kabul.

But it soon became clear that the girl had been raped, and this was later confirmed by local doctors.

 

 
Article link

The Toronto Star also reports a Canadian soldier overheard an Afghan soldier abusing a young boy in late 2006 and later saw the victim with signs of rape trauma, specifically protrusions of his bowels and lower intestine.


Offences of Breach of Command/Superior Responsibility

Under the Crimes Against Humanity and War Crimes Act, breach of command/superior responsibility is a criminal offence. This means that military commanders and superiors are obliged to take measures to prevent or repress genocide, crimes against humanity and war crimes. In the event that such a crime is committed by one of their subordinates, military commanders and superiors are responsible for submitting the matter to the competent authorities for investigation


My mission as a soldier is to help establish a secure environment so that the Government of Afghanistan can eventually stand on it's own so that terrorists can not use that country as a base of operations.

And we're not talking about a few degenerates here. We're talking about the whole culture. That sort of stuff doesn't change overnight, and we need to be ready to accept some things we don't like in favour of reaching long term goals.

The standard I apply to another Canadian soldier, an American soldier or Marine, or any other NATO troop doesn't have much to do with the standard I apply to the ANA.

Yes it does.

So what you are saying is you would turn a blind eye, because you perceive this is acceptable to their culture, and you are only there to fight the taliban.

Am I correct in this statement?

dileas

tess
I know that I’m not perfect and that I don’t claim to be, so before you point your fingers make sure your hands are clean.

Offline X-mo-1979

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Re: Afghanistani Rapes and Canadian Soldiers Duty
« Reply #38 on: June 18, 2008, 00:29:19 »
However,

Your post came across that you insinuated that it was a civvy problem, therefore we had no reason to intervene, am I correct?

Maybe I misinterpreted you post.

dileas

tess


Yeah big time misinterpretation.I don't agree with sodomy of children.

However as I said as with other war zone's such as female mutilation while we were in Somalia,it tends to get over looked I guess.
I have never been to that country yet.Leaving for there soon however.

Is there an army investigation happening reference this?

Glad I know nothing honestly,this could turn pretty messy for some leadership,IFthe allogations are true and it has been reported.

If this was happening in FOB's I'm sure the media would have picked up on it by now.

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Re: Afghanistani Rapes and Canadian Soldiers Duty
« Reply #39 on: June 18, 2008, 00:30:09 »
Quote
So what you are saying is you would turn a blind eye, because you perceive this is acceptable to their culture, and you are only there to fight the taliban.

Am I correct in this statement?

No.

If I had reason to suspect that the ANA were commiting acts such as this I would be legally bound to pass that information up my chain of command. I've only heard unsubstantiated rumors and read newspaper articles and have not witnessed anything personally.

My previous posts were a matter of opinion. However, as a member of the CF I am subject to and I abide by the QR&Os, international law, ect.

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Re: Afghanistani Rapes and Canadian Soldiers Duty
« Reply #40 on: June 18, 2008, 05:11:47 »
Does this all sound quite disgusting? Yes. 100%. Absolutely.

Couple of comments on here have me curious though:

Quote
Further information, from the Government of Canada;

Originally posted by Tess:

http://www.international.gc.ca/foreign_policy/icc/warCrimes-en.asp#juris

Offences of Breach of Command/Superior Responsibility

Under the Crimes Against Humanity and War Crimes Act, breach of command/superior responsibility is a criminal offence. This means that military commanders and superiors are obliged to take measures to prevent or repress genocide, crimes against humanity and war crimes. In the event that such a crime is committed by one of their subordinates, military commanders and superiors are responsible for submitting the matter to the competent authorities for investigation.

I think the bold bit is quite important in all this. The ANA are not our subordinates, and neither are the populace. The above says "committed", not "observed". In respect to the above, I do not believe that there has been a bonified "Breach of Command/Superior Responsibility" ... until the CDS issued the directive that "observed" WOULD be reported. That being said, Crimes against humanity and War Crimes come in many a varied form and observations of such are reported.

This "Man Love Thursday" issue gets tricky in that Child Prostitution is condemned world-wide and is tracked by the UN. BUT -- you then get into the laws of the nation that you are in. I would argue that "rape" of young males in Afghanistan is not acceptable, is illegal in that country, and therefore ANY Canadian soldier witnessing such should be reporting it forthwith. Not only is it a crime here in Canada, but rape is also a crime in Afghanistan. In all the articles though -- I see only one story repeatedly which denotes or describes an incident as a "rape" and that would be the incident as reported by Cpl Schouten who now has PTSD after overhearing a child being raped, then was witness to the severe physical rape trauma caused to this child.

The other stories all talk about sugar-daddies ... and "boys" lining up to prostitute themselves. Is that disgusting too?? I certainly think so, but it makes me wonder "what is the age of consent in Afghanistan?" Is it 10? 12? Heck -- it was 14 right here in Canada (since 1892) and only raised up to age 16 on 01 May of this year. Technically, it is not a crime here in Canada to have sex with a 16 year old - disgusting it may be, but not criminal. Prostitution IS a crime in Canada however, so technicaly we could report all Afghan incidents as "prostitution crime in progress" if the "boy" happens to be 16 or over (as per Canadian law for consent) or under age 16 (as too young to consent - a crime). But here's the kicker --- right here in Canada do you call the police or report to your chain of command every time you see a 30 year old prostitute soliciting a john on Yonge Street in Toronto?? That's a crime too. If we are obligated to report everything that would be a crime based on our Canadian Ethics and Morals in ANOTHER country with it's own laws -- should we not be obligated to do so within our own borders first??

We are now going to start imposing Canadian Laws and standards upon the population of Afghanistan? Aren't we there to help them build their own country back up ... not turn it into "Canada East"?? If we are "imposing" our western laws, standards and ideals -- then perhaps we really do then become an "occupier" vice an "assistant". It's a slippery slope. Yes, our mandate is also to respect dignity and enforce international law, but it's not to impose Canadian laws upon the Afghan populace.

So, is there an "age of consent" in Afghanistan? If so, what is that age? A "boy" over that age selling himself to an adult male may very well disgust us and not be typical of Canadian ethics and values but that doesn't necessarily deem that act to be contrary to "Humanitarian Law" or " International Law". I wandered through the United Nations' website but I couldn't find any recommendations they had for an acceptable age of consent other than "UN workers/forces will not engage in sexual relations with anyone under the age of 18, regardless of the age of consent in effect within that nation."

Do we therefore use age 18 as the UN standard within Afghanistan?? If so, should we be reporting 17 year olds here at home in Canada too? Even if they are consenting? Or is the answer to that "No, Canadian law says 16, so no - you don't report them?" What if Afghan Law says 12?? Is their law not just as valid as ours?

It certainly may not be as advanced as our laws here, but it's a beginning. But where to start? Do you start by reporting the 14 year old boy willfully selling himself ... or do you start by reporting the 14 year old female being forced to marry some man she's never met before first (and you do know that hubby dearest does want "baby-making" sex with her too.)?? After all, she's not given any choice in the matter and is being "forced" into her position. Isn't that, in effect, "rape unreported"?? I'd interpret the CDS' direction to include filing reports on all these "arranged marriages" as well.

Or is it simply more "acceptable" to our Canadian values than Man-love Thursdays is?

To re-itterate --- I think the practise is digusting and I would never sit back and watch a rape occur or any serious abuse without firstly attempting to do something to stop it immediately, and then to report it.

But something being disgusting to me ... isn't necessarily a crime (that's why that "age of consent" in Afghanistan is important - but I don't know what it is in Afghanistan ... anyone... Bueller???)

If the caveat is going to be "prostitution is illegal - therefore report it all" ... forced marriages are also illegal here, as is polygamy ... report it all.

As for this occuring INSIDE the FOB ...

Quote
Canadian soldiers in the main guard tower at forward operating base Wilson last summer winced when I asked about the sudden lineup of teenage boys along the mud walls of the neighbouring Afghan market.

"Wait a few minutes. You'll see," said one, his lip curling. "It's disgusting."

Sure enough, a handful of uniformed Afghan police officers emerged from their rundown detachment, walked through the barricades and started chatting up the dozen or so teens, some looking decidedly pre-teen.

A few minutes after they returned, the selected kids were waved through the main gates and went straight inside the police station. An hour later, when I left the observation post, the boys were still inside.
...
It should be stressed that the activity at FOB Wilson does not mean Afghan police and army officers are engaged in an epidemic of juvenile sodomy.

I'm unsure as to whether or not this article is indicating that this activity occured "IN" FOB Wilson.

What I get is that boys lined up along the walls of an Afghan market, that the police then emerged through their station's barricades and collected some boys from the market, and then proceed back through their station gate/barricades into the Police Station. I gather that this was all observed by the reporter from the watch tower of FOB Wilson. I also interpret his comment "that the activity AT FOB Wilson" to be him referring to the general area, else he'd have said "IN" FOB Wilson.

I have very serious doubts that any Comd would have allowed this to happen "IN" a Canadian compound ... and move that NO reporter would have sat on the story for a year had that actually been the case. I think people are seeing "barricades" and "gates" and assuming that they are those of FOB Wilson ... vice those commonly found outside of police stations (and previously - prisons) in Afghanistan. But, I could be wrong - I've never been to FOB Wilson. It could very well be that the police station is inside the FOB and, if that's the case, this is just soooooooooo not on and wrong. I sincerely hope that that is not the case.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2008, 05:22:17 by ArmyVern »
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Re: Afghanistani Rapes and Canadian Soldiers Duty
« Reply #41 on: June 18, 2008, 06:37:12 »
Excellent summation....
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Re: Afghanistani Rapes and Canadian Soldiers Duty
« Reply #42 on: June 18, 2008, 06:51:19 »
Lotsa good stuff there, AV...

NO reporter would have sat on the story for a year had that actually been the case.

I hope so, too, but check out the lead paragraph of the National Post account....

Quote
Canadian soldiers in the main guard tower at forward operating base Wilson last summer winced when I asked about the sudden lineup of teenage boys along the mud walls of the neighbouring Afghan market.

You're right about the description not being clear enough re:  was it inside or outside the FOB (makes a big difference re:  how direct a role the CF boss can play).  Isn't this something a reporter should be asking about?  A really quick archive search shows material he placelined from Afghanistan in the summer of 2007 - why didn't this reporter/columnist didn't write about this phenomenon until one of the competition piped up about something similar?

Based on my limited experiences, in some newsrooms, it's not "news" unless we discover it, our editor thinks it's worth running with, and we're the first to run it big.  Could this have been the case?

right here in Canada do you call the police or report to your chain of command every time you see a 30 year old prostitute soliciting a john on Yonge Street in Toronto?? That's a crime too. If we are obligated to report everything that would be a crime based on our Canadian Ethics and Morals in ANOTHER country with it's own laws -- should we not be obligated to do so within our own borders first??

Anybody (in uniform or not) witnessing a crime in Canada should report it (yeah, I know, what are the odds of it being dealt with?) as part of trying to uphold law and order.  In AFG, though, our government is saying that our armed forces, our diplomats and our aid workers are there to help build security forces and government that the citizens can trust to look after their interests.  In light of that, do we NOT report instances where it looks like an adult authority figure is using his power unfairly over a minor?  The CF soldier in AFG is in a VERY different position than a taxpayer on Yonge.  In some ways, the soldier may have even MORE of an obligation to report, especially in light of the fact that here in the west, there are mechanisms in place if someone thinks a police officer is violating a trust of some sort.

- edited to fix grammar a bit -
« Last Edit: June 18, 2008, 07:16:05 by milnewstbay »
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Re: Afghanistani Rapes and Canadian Soldiers Duty
« Reply #43 on: June 18, 2008, 06:58:33 »
Does this all sound quite disgusting? Yes. 100%. Absolutely.

Couple of comments on here have me curious though:

I think the bold bit is quite important in all this. The ANA are not our subordinates, and neither are the populace. The above says "committed", not "observed". In respect to the above, I do not believe that there has been a bonified "Breach of Command/Superior Responsibility" ... until the CDS issued the directive that "observed" WOULD be reported. That being said, Crimes against humanity and War Crimes come in many a varied form and observations of such are reported.

This "Man Love Thursday" issue gets tricky in that Child Prostitution is condemned world-wide and is tracked by the UN. BUT -- you then get into the laws of the nation that you are in. I would argue that "rape" of young males in Afghanistan is not acceptable, is illegal in that country, and therefore ANY Canadian soldier witnessing such should be reporting it forthwith. Not only is it a crime here in Canada, but rape is also a crime in Afghanistan. In all the articles though -- I see only one story repeatedly which denotes or describes an incident as a "rape" and that would be the incident as reported by Cpl Schouten who now has PTSD after overhearing a child being raped, then was witness to the severe physical rape trauma caused to this child.

The other stories all talk about sugar-daddies ... and "boys" lining up to prostitute themselves. Is that disgusting too?? I certainly think so, but it makes me wonder "what is the age of consent in Afghanistan?" Is it 10? 12? Heck -- it was 14 right here in Canada (since 1892) and only raised up to age 16 on 01 May of this year. Technically, it is not a crime here in Canada to have sex with a 16 year old - disgusting it may be, but not criminal. Prostitution IS a crime in Canada however, so technicaly we could report all Afghan incidents as "prostitution crime in progress" if the "boy" happens to be 16 or over (as per Canadian law for consent) or under age 16 (as too young to consent - a crime). But here's the kicker --- right here in Canada do you call the police or report to your chain of command every time you see a 30 year old prostitute soliciting a john on Yonge Street in Toronto?? That's a crime too. If we are obligated to report everything that would be a crime based on our Canadian Ethics and Morals in ANOTHER country with it's own laws -- should we not be obligated to do so within our own borders first??

We are now going to start imposing Canadian Laws and standards upon the population of Afghanistan? Aren't we there to help them build their own country back up ... not turn it into "Canada East"?? If we are "imposing" our western laws, standards and ideals -- then perhaps we really do then become an "occupier" vice an "assistant". It's a slippery slope. Yes, our mandate is also to respect dignity and enforce international law, but it's not to impose Canadian laws upon the Afghan populace.

So, is there an "age of consent" in Afghanistan? If so, what is that age? A "boy" over that age selling himself to an adult male may very well disgust us and not be typical of Canadian ethics and values but that doesn't necessarily deem that act to be contrary to "Humanitarian Law" or " International Law". I wandered through the United Nations' website but I couldn't find any recommendations they had for an acceptable age of consent other than "UN workers/forces will not engage in sexual relations with anyone under the age of 18, regardless of the age of consent in effect within that nation."

Do we therefore use age 18 as the UN standard within Afghanistan?? If so, should we be reporting 17 year olds here at home in Canada too? Even if they are consenting? Or is the answer to that "No, Canadian law says 16, so no - you don't report them?" What if Afghan Law says 12?? Is their law not just as valid as ours?

It certainly may not be as advanced as our laws here, but it's a beginning. But where to start? Do you start by reporting the 14 year old boy willfully selling himself ... or do you start by reporting the 14 year old female being forced to marry some man she's never met before first (and you do know that hubby dearest does want "baby-making" sex with her too.)?? After all, she's not given any choice in the matter and is being "forced" into her position. Isn't that, in effect, "rape unreported"?? I'd interpret the CDS' direction to include filing reports on all these "arranged marriages" as well.

Or is it simply more "acceptable" to our Canadian values than Man-love Thursdays is?

To re-itterate --- I think the practise is digusting and I would never sit back and watch a rape occur or any serious abuse without firstly attempting to do something to stop it immediately, and then to report it.

But something being disgusting to me ... isn't necessarily a crime (that's why that "age of consent" in Afghanistan is important - but I don't know what it is in Afghanistan ... anyone... Bueller???)

If the caveat is going to be "prostitution is illegal - therefore report it all" ... forced marriages are also illegal here, as is polygamy ... report it all.



A fantastic post,

However I have a few challenges.  You keep refering to Canadian Laws, and Canadian Ethics.  And that Afghanistan may have different laws and ages of consent.

Unfortunately, there are international laws, and standards.  18 is the age agreed upon, that any one under that deserves the protection of the law.

http://www.unicef.org/crc/index_protocols.html

Rumours, innuendos, and such may seem like a waste of time.  However, if someone heard an ANA soldier claiming he knew were there was a weapons cache would one not at leaste pass this on to their chain of  command to investigate?  Simmilarrily, if you (this is for the general readership, not you Vern :)) heard someone talking about raping children, you must do your due diligence and report it.

There are international laws that we must uphold and observe.  We may not know them from memory, however being Canadian, we have grown up with morals that these laws have been generally based on.  THerfore it is easier fro us to distinguish Culture and crime.

http://www.unicef.org/crc/index_30160.html

dileas

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Offline TrexLink

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Re: Afghanistani Rapes and Canadian Soldiers Duty
« Reply #44 on: June 18, 2008, 07:45:23 »
I am not condoning the act of rape but, setting that aside, am curious about a couple of things I have seen here.

In particular, can somebody shed more light on rape being considered an crime against humanity?  I can see that in a Bosnia context, where mass rape was used as a terror tactic. I am not so sure about individual acts.  Would Paul Bernardo be eligible for trial in the Hague?  I rather doubt it.

I agree with ArmyVern - the offenses of breach of command regulation would seem to relate to one's own troops, not those of an ally.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2008, 07:53:13 by TrexLink »
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Re: Afghanistani Rapes and Canadian Soldiers Duty
« Reply #45 on: June 18, 2008, 09:32:19 »
A fantastic post,

However I have a few challenges.  You keep refering to Canadian Laws, and Canadian Ethics.  And that Afghanistan may have different laws and ages of consent.

Unfortunately, there are international laws, and standards.  18 is the age agreed upon, that any one under that deserves the protection of the law.

http://www.unicef.org/crc/index_protocols.html

Rumours, innuendos, and such may seem like a waste of time.  However, if someone heard an ANA soldier claiming he knew were there was a weapons cache would one not at leaste pass this on to their chain of  command to investigate?  Simmilarrily, if you (this is for the general readership, not you Vern :)) heard someone talking about raping children, you must do your due diligence and report it.

There are international laws that we must uphold and observe.  We may not know them from memory, however being Canadian, we have grown up with morals that these laws have been generally based on.  THerfore it is easier fro us to distinguish Culture and crime.

http://www.unicef.org/crc/index_30160.html

dileas

tess


As stated, age 18 is the only age that I came up with on the United Nations website

But, by your own post here ...

Quote
Unfortunately, there are international laws, and standards.  18 is the age agreed upon, that any one under that deserves the protection of the law.

We here in Canada are NOT upholding and observing those international laws right here in our very own country. Our age of consent is only 16. That means we are "not reporting" international crimes/assaults right here in our very own nation each and every day!!

We may be Canadian, and we may have what "we" believe to be better/higher ethical standards and morals --- but now you are asking soldiers to hold Afghans to a HIGHER standard (age 18) than we hold even our own citizens to.

Until the other day, I was led to believe that our mission in Afghanistan was to deafeat the Taliban, aid with rebuilding, build the ANA, the police etc ... and to ASSIST the Afghan government in enforcing it's laws, it's constitution and to help them ensure their sovereignty. Today, I'm not so sure of that. Today, it seems, that because we find something offensive (sex between a 16 year old/adult that is consensual) ... that we have deemed it "required" to report this as "a crime being committed" when that very thing is legal right here in this country.

Yes, we do have an onus on us to report war crimes, crimes against humanity, rape, abuse etc ... those are crimes. I have NO issues with any of that.

Consensual sex between 2 people is not a crime when they are over the age of consent. So who's age of consent do we apply? Afghanistan's (unknown age), Canada's (16), or the UNs (18)? And if you choose the UN's ... then are we not, as duty bound by QR&O, also obligated to report those SAME crimes happening in high school parking lots each and every day in this country occuring with 16 & 17 year olds?

That's what I'm getting at. What gives us the RIGHT to tell another country what they should do with their laws? If we are going to enforce "western laws" ... then we in the west become very close to (if not actually) crossing that line of "Hi, we're from Canada and we're here to help" into a zone that I'm not sure I want to step into.
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Offline tomahawk6

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Re: Afghanistani Rapes and Canadian Soldiers Duty
« Reply #46 on: June 18, 2008, 09:32:59 »
We need to be sensitive to Afghan culture. ;)

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Re: Afghanistani Rapes and Canadian Soldiers Duty
« Reply #47 on: June 18, 2008, 09:58:27 »
That's what I'm getting at. What gives us the RIGHT to tell another country what they should do with their laws? If we are going to enforce "western laws" ... then we in the west become very close to (if not actually) crossing that line of "Hi, we're from Canada and we're here to help" into a zone that I'm not sure I want to step into.

Agreed about forcing Western laws down people's throats....  However, is this a question of "telling a country to enforce Western laws" or is it "helping an ally find ways to increase public trust in their security forces"?  Paint me naive, but there has to be a way to get across the concept that cops or soldiers can't be abusing the trust of children without necessarily changing the consent and/or rape laws of Afghanistan.
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Re: Afghanistani Rapes and Canadian Soldiers Duty
« Reply #48 on: June 18, 2008, 10:04:06 »
As stated, age 18 is the only age that I came up with on the United Nations website

But, by your own post here ...

We here in Canada are NOT upholding and observing those international laws right here in our very own country. Our age of consent is only 16. That means we are "not reporting" international crimes/assaults right here in our very own nation each and every day!!

We may be Canadian, and we may have what "we" believe to be better/higher ethical standards and morals --- but now you are asking soldiers to hold Afghans to a HIGHER standard (age 18) than we hold even our own citizens to.

Until the other day, I was led to believe that our mission in Afghanistan was to deafeat the Taliban, aid with rebuilding, build the ANA, the police etc ... and to ASSIST the Afghan government in enforcing it's laws, it's constitution and to help them ensure their sovereignty. Today, I'm not so sure of that. Today, it seems, that because we find something offensive (sex between a 16 year old/adult that is consensual) ... that we have deemed it "required" to report this as "a crime being committed" when that very thing is legal right here in this country.

Yes, we do have an onus on us to report war crimes, crimes against humanity, rape, abuse etc ... those are crimes. I have NO issues with any of that.

Consensual sex between 2 people is not a crime when they are over the age of consent. So who's age of consent do we apply? Afghanistan's (unknown age), Canada's (16), or the UNs (18)? And if you choose the UN's ... then are we not, as duty bound by QR&O, also obligated to report those SAME crimes happening in high school parking lots each and every day in this country occuring with 16 & 17 year olds?

That's what I'm getting at. What gives us the RIGHT to tell another country what they should do with their laws? If we are going to enforce "western laws" ... then we in the west become very close to (if not actually) crossing that line of "Hi, we're from Canada and we're here to help" into a zone that I'm not sure I want to step into.

Again Vern,

I am not advocating the eradication of Consensual sex.

This thread is about people, specifically in Uniform, that force sexual attacks on the civillian population.  They are using their newly given authority to oppress the population, which in turn can hamper our mission.

Two ANA soldiers walking hand in hand, I could not care less.  Boys, coaxed into a police station for "Man-Boy-Love"  not on.  As I stated earlier, with the degenerate Christopher Paul Neil who loured boys to his apartment for sexual favours, he was tracked down by interpol and arrested.

The gist is, if someone of authority is forcing sexual attacks, it is our duty to have this stopped.  We are therre to help the people of Afghanistan.

milnewstbay , you nailed it

Quote
Agreed about forcing Western laws down people's throats....  However, is this a question of "telling a country to enforce Western laws" or is it "helping an ally find ways to increase public trust in their security forces"?  Paint me naive, but there has to be a way to get across the concept that cops or soldiers can't be abusing the trust of children without necessarily changing the consent and/or rape laws of Afghanistan.

dileas

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Re: Afghanistani Rapes and Canadian Soldiers Duty
« Reply #49 on: June 18, 2008, 10:40:53 »
It isn't a case of abuse of authority, it is tradition and will continue despite what the do gooders and bleeding hearts think. The CF is under no obligation or order to interfere with the local customs and traditions, in fact we are ordered to respect them. Get off of your high horses folks there is nothing we can or should do about this it is there country and we are NOT there to impose our morals on them or we will risk losing more Afghan allies .