Author Topic: Transgender in the CF (merged)  (Read 89834 times)

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Offline mellian

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Re: Transgender/Intersex Super Thread
« Reply #50 on: October 22, 2009, 20:13:34 »
While it's true that "trans people may not be recognizable," I would think, if they were applying to the Canadian Forces, or in fact any employer, it would be in their best interest to immediately self-identify. It would be fool-hardy not to do so--regardless of where they were applying for a job.

It really depends on the employment. If it is just an average office job with no medical requirements, then there is no need to disclose to the employer. If like the Canadian Forces require a full medical, then at that point you are obligated to bring it up as part of your medical history. Since the medical is mainly confidential, there is no need to disclose to all those you are serving with.


Offline mellian

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Re: Transgender/Intersex Super Thread
« Reply #51 on: October 22, 2009, 20:23:21 »
I have a question. While I have no doubt in my mind that transgender surgery is necessary for the person involved and in the long run will make for a better serving member. My question is why will the CF pay to have this surgery done but not for Lasik or any other type of eye corrective surgery? Not having to wear glasses would make a soldier more effective in the field when it's raining or foggy and the the gasses don't get wet. Or fogged up in cold. I know at sea I've had to take my glasses off while on watch because it was either raining or foggy. It made me a less effective lookout. Also the money that would have been saved by not having to buy me glasses every couple of years or when I've lost them or had them broken.

Because Lasik it is not in the same league? Lasik is not required for your physical and mental health, where sex change is a long with being a requirement to treated and accepted as your gender identity. I mean, who has suicidal or postal thoughts simply for not having laser eye correction?

Quote
I have heard that the CF is considering paying for corrective surgery. Can anyone confirm or deny this?

A question for another thread.

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Re: Transgender/Intersex Super Thread
« Reply #52 on: October 22, 2009, 20:31:59 »
Because Lasik it is not in the same league? Lasik is not required for your physical and mental health, where sex change is a long with being a requirement to treated and accepted as your gender identity. I mean, who has suicidal or postal thoughts simply for not having laser eye correction?

May not have had suicidal thoughts but have you ever walked into a warm space from the cold outside? On a ship you could wind up head first down a steel ladder on to a steel deck, or had to stand in the rain looking for a shipmate who has fallen over the side, or had the lives of others depend on you being able to see past your nose? Like I said I had no doubt about the importance of the mental health of anyone my question was a safety concern when I have the lives of others in my hands.
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Re: Transgender/Intersex Super Thread
« Reply #53 on: October 22, 2009, 20:38:26 »
I have a question. While I have no doubt in my mind that transgender surgery is necessary for the person involved and in the long run will make for a better serving member. My question is why will the CF pay to have this surgery done but not for Lasik or any other type of eye corrective surgery?

IIRC, it's because gender reassignment surgery is covered under OHIP.  Not sure about other province's health plans.

No offense, but I could have placed a bet on how soon that question came up.  It's pretty much inevitable.  By the same token, they will cover someone having laser treatment for acne or rosacea but not for broken capillaries on the face.  Who knows why? 
« Last Edit: October 22, 2009, 20:42:00 by PMedMoe »
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Offline leroi

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Re: Transgender/Intersex Super Thread
« Reply #54 on: October 22, 2009, 20:40:44 »
I don't see how it would be in their best interest
to do so with any employer.

There is many prejudice against transgender.
As there is against homosexuel or bisexual or ...

I wouldn't suggest full disclosure to all potential
employers!


Yrys, you are entitled to your opinion that is the Canadian way and I respect you for it.

As an employer, I would want to know this information so I could accommodate someone with a different orientation.
I would want to be able to ensure their needs were being met and that they would not be discriminated against by others.
How can an employer accommodate for the needs of an individual undergoing this kind of transition if the employer is not informed?
How could other female employees, some of whom may be of strictest Islam for example, feel comfortable sharing female restrooms, for example, with someone who is male-almost-female going through this process but who retains vestiges of the male member and pees standing up?

Although I would not want an employee to be forced by law to disclose this information, I still think it would be in both the employee and employers best interest to disclose to ensure accommodations can be met. It is not only managers, bosses and persons in positions of hiring authority in work places who discriminate against others. Colleagues and co-workers can be the worst--in my experience anyway.

Thank goodness employers violating the human rights of others can be challenged themselves--at least in this country, anyway.

« Last Edit: October 22, 2009, 20:48:43 by leroi »

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Re: Transgender/Intersex Super Thread
« Reply #55 on: October 22, 2009, 20:56:05 »
I don't have OHIP here in Toronto. I didn't have MSI when I was in Halifax. I guess it all depends on what is deemed important and I know people's comfort within themselves is very high on the list and I can understand why. I can live with and have lived with glasses. I've never had to suffer through anything disfiguring or even close to what someone considering transgender surgery must be going through. Couldn't even begin to imagine what they are going through. I just wanted to see if anyone had heard anything on any of the eye surgeries. About a year ago I heard the powers that be were considering it.

The CF does not give us money for glasses they give us the glasses.
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Re: Transgender/Intersex Super Thread
« Reply #56 on: October 22, 2009, 20:58:15 »
I have a question. While I have no doubt in my mind that transgender surgery is necessary for the person involved and in the long run will make for a better serving member. My question is why will the CF pay to have this surgery done but not for Lasik or any other type of eye corrective surgery? Not having to wear glasses would make a soldier more effective in the field when it's raining or foggy and the the gasses don't get wet. Or fogged up in cold. I know at sea I've had to take my glasses off while on watch because it was either raining or foggy. It made me a less effective lookout. Also the money that would have been saved by not having to buy me glasses every couple of years or when I've lost them or had them broken.


 I have heard that the CF is considering paying for corrective surgery. Can anyone confirm or deny this?

See the first post in this thread, in particular the bolded part.

Offline mellian

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Re: Transgender/Intersex Super Thread
« Reply #57 on: October 22, 2009, 23:56:10 »
As an employer, I would want to know this information so I could accommodate someone with a different orientation.
I would want to be able to ensure their needs were being met and that they would not be discriminated against by others.
How can an employer accommodate for the needs of an individual undergoing this kind of transition if the employer is not informed?

While it may make sense for those who transition in the work place, what real purpose would a trans person have to disclose themselves when gaining new employments? Doing special accommodations to someone that does not need it just to satisfy others is a form of discrimination in itself.

Quote
How could other female employees, some of whom may be of strictest Islam for example, feel comfortable sharing female restrooms, for example, with someone who is male-almost-female going through this process but who retains vestiges of the male member and pees standing up?

Welcome to Canada, where everyone is different and live their own lives in their own ways!

Seriously, there are stalls in restrooms, whats between one's is normally not shown, and why would trans women still pee standing up? Oh, and technically trans people are accepted according to Islam, as per Saudi Arabia and Iran anyway. 

Quote
Although I would not want an employee to be forced by law to disclose this information, I still think it would be in both the employee and employers best interest to disclose to ensure accommodations can be met. It is not only managers, bosses and persons in positions of hiring authority in work places who discriminate against others. Colleagues and co-workers can be the worst--in my experience anyway.

There comes a time that a trans person can fend for themselves without the need of special treatment.

Quote
Thank goodness employers violating the human rights of others can be challenged themselves--at least in this country, anyway.

For every win, there has been more losses.

IIRC, it's because gender reassignment surgery is covered under OHIP.  Not sure about other province's health plans.

Sex/Genital Reassignment Surgery has not been covered by OHIP since 1998, and despite successes with OHR, Ontario Gov has no plans to cover it again any time soon, especially as other provinces have removed it from their coverage in the last year or so.

Why is a thread with a recruitment related question moved to Training?

Offline the 48th regulator

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Re: Transgender/Intersex Super Thread
« Reply #58 on: October 23, 2009, 00:04:54 »
Why is a thread with a recruitment related question moved to Training?

Because the original thread, that I merged this with, was in the training thread.  And I felt that it was the most suitable area of the two.

I apologize if this caused any offence, my intention was that relevant information would better suit users queries, on this topic, be combined in one thread.

It would make search of these types of questions, easier, as opposed to someone having to bounce around all over the place.

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Offline Rider Pride

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Re: Transgender/Intersex Super Thread
« Reply #59 on: October 23, 2009, 08:10:51 »
It is my opinion that as far as the CF is concerned, "it is our club, if you want to join our club, you can join under our rules. If you do not fit into our rules, then it is up to you to meet the criteria we set out for you to join."

In the following case, it is to complete all operations (which DND would pay for if the person in question was already serving) prior to enrollment.

Personally, I think that is fair in this case.

Here is a news article that may or may not shed light on the discussion:

http://www.google.com/hostednews/canadianpress/article/ALeqM5jOQHpUsNMGA8BBhLUntSi74rF-yw

Transgendered soldiers fall into grey zone for otherwise open Canadian military

By Tobi Cohen (CP) – 14 hours ago

MONTREAL — Chris already has manly muscles, facial hair, a baritone voice and was accepted years ago by family and friends as a man.

But he's been told he cannot work for the Canadian military until he also gets a penis.

The story of this transgendered applicant to the Canadian Forces suggests that even in the far more liberal climate of recent years, there are still grey areas when it comes to sexual identity and the military.

The 31-year-old New Brunswicker does not want his real name published out of fear it might affect future job prospects. But he was willing to share his letter of rejection from the Department of National Defence and tell his story under a pseudonym.

The rejection letter identifies Chris as "Mr." and indicates the military would only reconsider "once a detailed assessment is provided by (a) family physician after the gender change is completed and definite gender identification can be made."

The military says it has no policies prohibiting transgendered people from serving. Spokeswoman Megan MacLean suggested questions could still arise over whether someone is deemed "medically able" to serve.

"If they try to join and are unable to medically serve, for whatever reasons, they are not recruited at the time and are told to come back once their medical situation is handled," MacLean said.

Chris has already undergone two sex-change surgeries and prefers to be addressed as a man. He says the military has forced him into a catch-22.

Here's his dilemma: he can't get a military job until he completes his sex-change procedures. But he can't afford the final $36,000 surgery unless he has a decent-paying job.

He's now filing a human-rights complaint at both the provincial and national levels and has returned to school to study social work should his policing career fail to pan out.

"The big issue is, OK, if I'm trying to get in the military, they're rejecting me because I don't have my operation," he said in an interview.

"If an employer can do that, how am I ever going to be able to pay for the operation?"

Fear for his job prospects explains why he wants to remain anonymous. His need for a good job is particularly pressing because his province's health plan will not cover the expensive procedure that would give him male genitals.

Meanwhile, he's spoken with other transgendered people and learned the recovery period is only a month. That leaves him baffled as to why the government might consider him medically incapable of serving - especially since he passed his pre-entry physical with flying colours.

He said the military risks shutting out qualified people. Many transgendered individuals never even bother with the final surgery since it hasn't been perfected yet, he said - and all these people would be left in limbo by the military.

"That's why I'm fighting right now," he said.

With degrees in criminal justice and corrections and 12 years' experience as a private investigator, he says he was told by recruiters he'd be a shoo-in for the job.

But when it came time for Ottawa to do a background check, much confusion arose. There was one glaring inconsistency when military personnel went to interview people for character references.

Some people referred to a "he" while others referred to a "she." On second glance, the military also realized he'd ticked off 'Female' in his application forms and the red flags went up.

"I put 'F' for female because legally here in New Brunswick we're not allowed changing 'F' to 'M' until our final operation," he said. "And because I'm going into policing, I was not going to be caught in a lie."

Egale Canada, a group that supports gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgendered people, facilitated the interview with the 31-year-old New Brunswicker.

The group's executive director said there's definitely room for the military to improve. The way it deals with transgendered members is one issue but the military also needs to make up for historic wrongs, Helen Kennedy said.

Prior to 1992, service members who were outed as homosexuals were driven out of the Canadian Forces. Dating back to the Second World War, many of them received dishonourable discharges which meant they couldn't have access to veterans' benefits.

Last spring, New Democratic Party MP Peter Stoffer acted on a resolution drafted by his party's Quebec wing and asked the federal government to track down those members and apologize.

He's also calling for a public apology and for veterans' benefits to be awarded to those who need them and are still alive.

He suspects the task will be tough as many veterans are probably deceased. Others will be reluctant to revisit what was undoubtedly a difficult period in their lives, but Stoffer thinks it's important and could be achieved through public service announcements.

"We discriminated against those wonderful people," he said. "We learned from it. We no longer do it.

"But the reality is, we still have an awful lot of people who've never been told yet: 'By the way, what we did was wrong. We're sorry and we're gonna help you out."'
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Re: Transgender/Intersex Super Thread
« Reply #60 on: October 23, 2009, 08:34:17 »
Mellian Is there any cause you don't support?
Guys chopping off their penis,George Bush is a war criminal,gay rights.....

Did you ever see the movie "Glen or Glenda"?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xuq1A_T3vWQ
It's director, a former Marine, "claimed that he had participated in the Battle of Guadalcanal while secretly wearing a brassiere and panties beneath his uniform."
« Last Edit: October 23, 2009, 10:33:51 by mariomike »
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Offline Bruce Monkhouse

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Re: Transgender/Intersex Super Thread
« Reply #61 on: October 23, 2009, 08:35:31 »
Chris has already undergone two sex-change surgeries and prefers to be addressed as a man. He says the military has forced him into a catch-22.

Here's his dilemma: he can't get a military job until he completes his sex-change procedures. But he can't afford the final $36,000 surgery unless he has a decent-paying job.

F&#$ you.

Grab a mirror and start giving crap to the only one person who forced you into any dilemma.
Don't start something you don't have the means to finish...........
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Re: Transgender/Intersex Super Thread
« Reply #62 on: October 23, 2009, 08:55:58 »
What I'm getting from this article is this guy is ticked that we won't hire him to pay for his surgery. Not once in this artivcle did it mention anything about serving his country or making a difference or helping anyone but himself. I don't care what kind of surgery you need the CF is not an employer of convienence so you can get expensive work done at public expense.

 Dn't get me wrong I'm not against this surgery being done if after he gets in and has served or still wants to serve after the surgery. I have dealt with several applicants at the Recruiting Centre that only want to get in so they can get free medical or a college diploma. "How long do I have to serve before I can get out and get a real job after I finish school" is a line I've heard a lot.

Same thing here. "I'll join, get the CF to pay and then when it's done I'll get out." Sorry wrong attitude!!
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Offline Le Adder Noir

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Re: Transgender/Intersex Super Thread
« Reply #63 on: October 23, 2009, 09:11:59 »
In other news, Rubert, a 26 year old trans-species person is considering legal action following his rejection by the Canadian Forces.
Rubert, who is in the first stages of human to penguin re-assignment surgery stated: "What more can I do? I had a beak installed, I've changed my diet to herring......  They say they won't consider me a penguin until I get the wings!"
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Re: Transgender/Intersex Super Thread
« Reply #64 on: October 23, 2009, 09:33:37 »
Rubert, who is in the first stages of human to penguin re-assignment surgery stated: "What more can I do? I had a beak installed, I've changed my diet to herring......  They say they won't consider me a penguin until I get the wings!"

Can you imagine Penguins in desert warfare? They would be lost!
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Re: Transgender/Intersex Super Thread
« Reply #65 on: October 23, 2009, 09:42:41 »
They'd be ok. Tim Horon's sells IceCaps!

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Re: Transgender/Intersex Super Thread
« Reply #66 on: October 23, 2009, 09:45:06 »
Think about the penguin's skills during winter warfare or ice DivEx. They'd beat everyone hands flippers down.
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Offline mellian

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Re: Transgender/Intersex Super Thread
« Reply #67 on: October 23, 2009, 09:50:22 »
Mellian Is there any cause you don't support?

Guys chopping off their penis,George Bush is a war criminal,gay rights.....

I do not support assumptions and putting words in other peoples mouths.

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Re: Transgender/Intersex Super Thread
« Reply #68 on: October 23, 2009, 09:59:06 »
I must say, I tend to agree with you Bruce.!

Offline mellian

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Re: Transgender/Intersex Super Thread
« Reply #69 on: October 23, 2009, 10:10:00 »
It is my opinion that as far as the CF is concerned, "it is our club, if you want to join our club, you can join under our rules. If you do not fit into our rules, then it is up to you to meet the criteria we set out for you to join."

In the following case, it is to complete all operations (which DND would pay for if the person in question was already serving) prior to enrollment.

Personally, I think that is fair in this case.

If the Canadian Forces did not have different standards for males and females, in would be a non-issue. Since the CF does, they depend on the legal sex of the person to determine how to refer and treat them as. Otherwise it would become a slippery slope. Yet even if that person joins as female as per their present legal sex, they still appear as male and have taken testosterone for some time, hence effectively stuck in-between. The military is not known to starting new trends, hence I can see how they rather refuse base on the medical and avoid blurring or breaking the standards set for everyone.

Now, if the person manage to get their legal sex changed without the complete surgery (like being born in a province with looser requirements like Ontario) and transition is complete minus the SRS, it would be harder to refuse under those grounds.

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Re: Transgender/Intersex Super Thread
« Reply #70 on: October 23, 2009, 10:17:30 »
F&#$ you.

Grab a mirror and start giving crap to the only one person who forced you into any dilemma.
Don't start something you don't have the means to finish...........


Yes "Bruce", your F&#$ you, say's it all. 8)

But also a interesting thought comes to mind, why should the CF's, Provincial or Federal Government Medical Plans pay for (cutting off or sewing on a Penis or sewing up a Vagina or what ever they do), when Canadian Citizens are dying from serious legitimate Illnesses and Diseases from extended waiting lists for treatment.

Not only to consider there are resources available for this, but to ask us to pay for it. It makes as much sense as that Guy who wants to be a Penguin.
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Offline mellian

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Re: Transgender/Intersex Super Thread
« Reply #71 on: October 23, 2009, 10:22:28 »
Same thing here. "I'll join, get the CF to pay and then when it's done I'll get out." Sorry wrong attitude!!

The article nor the person said anything about the CF paying for the surgery, just that they need a job to produce enough income to pay for it themselves, and it is not easy finding work with competitive wages.

The main issue is that the person is presently legally female, and New Brunswick specifically requires a Genital Reassignment Surgery to legally change their sex designation. Frustration on their part is being refused entry for generally the same reason.

They at least ask to be accepted as male and given the opportunity to make enough money while serving in the CF to pay for that surgery themselves, and in turn fulfill the New Brunswick requirement to legally change their sex.


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Re: Transgender/Intersex Super Thread
« Reply #72 on: October 23, 2009, 10:27:41 »
The Forces reject folks for lots of medical reasons that a "normal" employer would not be able to. This lad/ ladette is no different..............

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Offline mellian

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Re: Transgender/Intersex Super Thread
« Reply #73 on: October 23, 2009, 10:31:40 »

But also a interesting thought comes to mind, why should the CF's, Provincial or Federal Government Medical Plans pay for (cutting off or sewing on a Penis or sewing up a Vagina or what ever they do), when Canadian Citizens are dying from serious legitimate Illnesses and Diseases from extended waiting lists for treatment.

Because it is just as legitimate, as there are standards and regulations in treating trans people.


Quote
Not only to consider there are resources available for this, but to ask us to pay for it.

Read the article again. Nowhere says they request the CF to pay for it, just to be accepted into the CF as male.

Quote
It makes as much sense as that Guy who wants to be a Penguin.

It does not as males and females are not separate species.

Offline mellian

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Re: Transgender/Intersex Super Thread
« Reply #74 on: October 23, 2009, 10:39:18 »
The Forces reject folks for lots of medical reasons that a "normal" employer would not be able to. This lad/ ladette is no different..............

It may have been a decision made by medical, but if the reason of refusal is just because their legal sex is still female and missing the required SRS to legally change that despite being in good health and medically cleared in all other ways, it becomes more of an administration reason.

Hence the question of the thread I started before it got merged, what if that person managed to have changed their legal sex without the SRS? Would they have made the decision? Even thought genitals are not checked by medical as per the application process?