Author Topic: Paying Compliments (Saluting, Verbal Address)  (Read 108957 times)

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Offline Armageddon

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Re: protocol
« Reply #25 on: January 25, 2005, 20:43:36 »
Paying respects as you would if it were just the one officer is generally acceptable as I have never heard anything nor have I ever seen/done anything to the contrary.

Offline George Wallace

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Re: protocol
« Reply #26 on: January 25, 2005, 20:46:50 »
Sailing Instructor

You quoted "Para 15. When in uniform and not wearing headdress, compliments shall be paid by standing at attention."   This after you made this comment:
Quote

The checking arms thing seems to be a myth (or perhaps an old custom) as it is not mentioned in the drill manual, ch 1, s 2.


May I ask you how you come to attention?

Most people I know come to attention by bringing their heels together, with their feet at approx a 45 degree angle and "checking their arms" to their sides......

GW
« Last Edit: January 25, 2005, 20:51:52 by George Wallace »
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Offline pbi

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Re: protocol
« Reply #27 on: January 25, 2005, 22:15:18 »
I agree fully with all of George W's original post.

However, on the issue of officers saying "thank you" in response to a salute or the paying of complements from subordinates, I have to side with our former Area Comd, (then) BGen Fenton, who was much opposed to this practice. His point was that even in civilian clothes there are correct ways to acknowledge complements, and saying "thank you" is not one of them. What are you thanking the subordinate for? The salute is not for you: it is for your commission. You have no actual business thanking them for anything. Thanking a person for saluting HM commission is presumptious (although rather common). IMHO, if you feel compelled to say something, try "Good Day" or "Carry on" or something else, but not "thank you".

Cheers.
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Re: protocol
« Reply #28 on: January 26, 2005, 02:31:13 »
OK, to throw a bit of a wrench in the gears - To you Officers...

You are out and about, on foot, and are approached by an NCM, you can tell he's trying to spot your rank and is getting a bit apprehensive, would you initiate contact with something like "Lovely Morning, isn't it?" or "How do you like this weather?"

I have always found that the more "seasoned" Officers used to give us this little hint. Is this something you consider a practice or was I just dreaming it all? Having said this I only ever observed this happening in Gagetown, Greenwood and Shearwater, the latter two being air bases.

Inch's comments struck a chord, I once had to escort a buddy to Greenwood to see the Dentist and was very surprised to be asked my first name by a Colonel and then have him shake my hand and give me his! Upon the standard, "Nice to meet you, Sir" I got back a big grin and, "No, it's Mike!" Took me a while to get used to that. Good thing I was thinking when I got back to Aldershot, it would have been a good one to see the Duty Officer's face when I called out, "Back with your man, Dave!!" I'm sure someone would have gotten a laugh out of it.

Sorry for the small hijack.
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Offline Ex-Dragoon

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Re: protocol
« Reply #29 on: January 26, 2005, 05:29:12 »
For me I think its just good manners for an officer to say thank you or at least acknowledge your paying compliments other then a grunt which is what I get half the time.
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Offline Meridian

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Re: protocol
« Reply #30 on: January 26, 2005, 08:18:20 »
I suppose, PBI, the counter-argument is that you are thanking the member for respecting the commission.. As a representative of it, surely you are aloud to thank someone on behalf of it for respecting it?

If a foreigner is going on and on about how they love Canada, and how nice all "you  people are".. good manners would suggest saying something like "Thank you". While you  are not "all of canada", you do represent Canadians in the situation, and thus, thank you is warranted.

Just another p-o-v I guess...

Offline E.R. Campbell

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Re: protocol
« Reply #31 on: January 26, 2005, 08:32:40 »
Ivan Fenton passed on the wisdom which he learned about 30 years ago ... people who learned it 60 years ago passed it on to him, and they, in their turn, learned it from people who did their soldiering about 90 years ago, and so on.
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Re: protocol
« Reply #32 on: January 26, 2005, 11:29:31 »
Another twist:

Two officers walking down a hallway, one behind the other.  A Lt in front, and a 2Lt a few paces behind.  They pass some troops, who salute.  The Lt in front returns the salute.  What does the 2Lt behind do?  I don't think he should also return the salute (should he?), but should he check is arms, or do anything at all?

Offline Meridian

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Re: protocol
« Reply #33 on: January 26, 2005, 13:50:47 »
I was told you check your arms.. Just as you do if there are three Captains walking together, they dont all salute, one will (usually the leading one, or hte one closest to the group) and the others will check.

But I could be entirely wrong.Just what I was taught and what I observed.


Offline oldboy

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Re: protocol
« Reply #34 on: January 26, 2005, 17:14:15 »
Sailing Instructor, no you do not sing during the Royal or Vice-Regal Salute.  My background on this is based upon three years as an HADC to LGov of Manitoba.  Regarding the Vice-Regal, this is practical as well as customary because near of the two anthems are completely played.  On many occasions I have seen the consternation of many civilian dignitaries when "all of sudden the music stops".

Regarding who salutes in the hallway, or whenever a group of officers are moving from one place to another, it should be the senior person return the compliments.  This seniority is determined by rank, position, commissioning date.

Offline George Wallace

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Re: protocol
« Reply #35 on: January 26, 2005, 17:19:35 »
Depending on the spacing, he may return the salute also.  He should, if close to the other officer, do as he would in a group;  the senior salutes and the junior(s) come to attention cutting their arms smartly to their sides.

GW
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Offline Sailing Instructor

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Re: protocol
« Reply #36 on: January 26, 2005, 22:46:56 »
Sailing Instructor

You quoted "Para 15. When in uniform and not wearing headdress, compliments shall be paid by standing at attention."   This after you made this comment:
May I ask you how you come to attention?

Pardon my ambiguity in quoting the drill manual. I was commenting that checking the arms while on the march was not within the manual (& now that I've checked more thoroughly, it's not while double-marching either).  This would also suggest that when the sr officer returns the salute, other officers do not check their arms.  Perhaps verbally greeting the saluter would be good?

It seems to me that, as much as one salutes the commission not the individual, the exercise of saluting is extremely interpersonal.  One could justify saluting the individual officer by saying that he's earned the commission, so any respect contained within that commission is therefore transferred to him.  No?

Regarding the anthem-playing/singing: so I don't sing during the regal/viceregal salutes, but do I when the flag is hoisted & a band plays O Canada?  I did in sea cadets but that does not justify the practice, unfortunately.

Offline Marauder

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Re: protocol
« Reply #37 on: January 27, 2005, 14:28:38 »
Mr. Kaye, I don't think you should go so far as to thank your troops for doing something we do to pay our respect to the commisson you have earned. However, it is nice when an officer will acknowledge your existence beyond returning the high five. If Bloggins gives a "Good evening, Sir" while passing by and saluting, it's nice if you, as an officer, give a little something back while returning the salute, like "good evening, Bloggins" as he passes by. Nothing huge, but it's a good way to show the troops you're paying attention and care enough to ackowledge them.

And the whole Air Force first name thing would drive me buggy. The mini-MCPL (RCR type, of course) that rides shotgun in my head while in uniform would ***** slap me if I ever tried that. LMAO
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Offline Meridian

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Re: protocol
« Reply #38 on: January 27, 2005, 15:38:02 »
Well if the troop says something to you, I can't imagine the officer not saying something equivalent back!

IMHO, that would be tantamount to the OFFICER disrespecting the commission.

Offline PeterLT

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Re: protocol
« Reply #39 on: January 27, 2005, 15:40:03 »
Salute, or not to salute......that is the question. :salute:

I used to tell my troops that if they are in a situation where they are in doubt what is the proper thing to do, then salute. Better to be a bit embarrassed at saluting a Corporal, then not to salute an Officer. I would imagine that rule could also apply to the 2nd Lt following someone of higher rank. Better to be thought a bit overzealous due to inexperience by the troops (they will forgive). If the senior Officer has an issue with it, they can sort it out in private.

As far as Officers being addressed by their first name, I would not only frown on it, I'd discourage it very heavily amongst any troops. It's a very bad habit to get into. While it may be socially acceptable at the ball diamond, it will be deadly on the battlefield. As a now retired soldier, I would advise any serving Officers regardless of branch or element not to fall into that trap, lest you pay for it in some desolate place when you need instant action. By allowing the troops to address you by your first name you give up your authority over them and that can be very costly indeed.

Peter
« Last Edit: January 27, 2005, 15:43:49 by PeterLT »

Offline PikaChe

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Re: protocol
« Reply #40 on: January 27, 2005, 16:14:52 »
The rule of thumb I go by is if you're on duty, rank and last name as per.

Off duty, if you're friends, first name.

Offline Inch

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Re: protocol
« Reply #41 on: January 27, 2005, 16:21:57 »
As far as Officers being addressed by their first name, I would not only frown on it, I'd discourage it very heavily amongst any troops. It's a very bad habit to get into. While it may be socially acceptable at the ball diamond, it will be deadly on the battlefield. As a now retired soldier, I would advise any serving Officers regardless of branch or element not to fall into that trap, lest you pay for it in some desolate place when you need instant action. By allowing the troops to address you by your first name you give up your authority over them and that can be very costly indeed.


Point taken, but allow me to explain a little. I believe the Air Force is the only place that that happens and it happens for the simple fact that in 99% of the situations that would require instant action, it's all Officers present and at that, usually all Capts sometimes with a Maj or two present. A Sea King crew consists of two pilots, one TACCO and one AESOp. The only NCM onboard is the AESOp and he's not in a position that would require "immediate action" as you put it. All he does is lock his harness and wait for instructions from the front end about what we want him to do. The aircraft captain has the authority WRT the aircraft regardless of rank, still though, the AESOp has every right to speak up if something seems out of the ordinary. It's very open to communication in an aircraft and I highly doubt that any fatalities would have been prevented if we used Rank and Surname vice first names.

The simple fact is that everytime we go flying we face stressful and potentially hazardous situations, our job can still kill us even during "normal" everyday ops. I dare say that the same can't be said for most other trades in the CF on a daily basis.

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Offline pbi

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Re: protocol
« Reply #42 on: January 27, 2005, 22:12:21 »
I guess I'm getting misunderstood here.

I agree fully and completely that if a subordinate salutes an officer (or otherwise pays complements) that the officer should reply in a polite and pleasant way: no questions on that: that is the way I like to be treated too by my superiors.

What I do NOT agree with is that officer saying "thank you", for the reasons I stated. He acknowledges the salute by saluting, or if he has no headdress or is in civvies or PT gear, by adopting a position approximating "attention" and turning his head and eyes in the direction of the subordinate. That, IMHO, is how he "thanks" (don't like that word in this case...) the subordinate for saluting.

The comment on the Air Force is understood and I know  first name basis is part of aircrew culture and has been for years. Seen. However, a former Inf Offr I knew who became a pilot years ago told me that where it can cause problem is amongst all those thousands of Air Force people who will never set foot in a plane except as a passenger. Particularly, he said, in situations like BDF, and ground search and rescue under demanding conditions, where they are called upon to do things that may be more "Army" than "Air Force" he stated that he had seen situations in which the "buddy" approach started to come undone.

However, I am a strong believer in separate services, each with their own culture for their own reasons. We Army (esp Cbt A) act the way we do for our own reasons, as do the "blue guys". Where the problem arises IMHO is when Joe the Supply Tech who just came off three years in Wing Supply arrives in Admin Coy of an Inf Bn and wants to call the CSM "Jim". This does not work,  but IMHO is an example of one of the inherent failings of Unification: the attempt to deny that there are separate military cultures for good reasons. As evolution since 1967 has shown us, these cultures are still strong and have survived the attempt to mush us all into one purple blob. Cheers.
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Offline thorbahn

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Re: protocol
« Reply #43 on: January 27, 2005, 23:34:21 »
While on this topic, I have a similar question. My question is regarding proper protocol when an NCM crosses paths with an officer in regular civilian life. I thought about this because when I went to get a haricut today, the barber informed me that a Major from my unit had been in just a few minutes prior. If I had walked in and he was sitting down getting his hair cut, would it have been appropriate for me to come to attention?

Offline pbi

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Re: protocol
« Reply #44 on: January 27, 2005, 23:39:59 »
If you are a Class A Res, you are not subj to the Code of Service Discipline except at certain specific times, so the answer could be "you don't have to" depending on the circumstances. However, as a courtesy you could. If, on the other hand you are on full time service, then you must pay compliments at all times unless your unit/HQ/base has issued specific "no salute zone" instructions. For us RegF types, you don't stop being subject to the Code just because you are in civvies or downtown.

Cheers.
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Offline Tango2Bravo

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Re: protocol
« Reply #45 on: January 28, 2005, 00:34:00 »
In the armoured vehicle crews that I have been a part of there is a certain informality when on the tank, especially when on the IC (Intercom).  First names are not always used (although they often are), but nicknames or abbreviations come in.  It makes it faster to talk and is also a product of being in an AFV crew.  Once we are back in garrison, however, ranks and titles come back.  I'm sure each crew is a little different and this is just my own experience.

The whole rank and first names issue outside of unit time can be tricky in the reserves when superiors and subordinates can be peers in their civilian lives.  Go with your gut, but freely using first names is a step down a potentially slippery slope.  I went to school with many of my soldiers in my Troops in the Reserves and it was tough to strike a balance.  As for me, I addressed my superiors as "sir" regardless.

Looking at saluting, I'll fully support those here who have already stated that saying "thank-you" is not the way to return the paying of compliments.  Say something sincere (except for thankyou) and look the person in the eye.  If you know the person then try and say something like "Good morning Corporal Bloggins."  That being said, it can be a challenge to come up with original things to say if you get caught against the flow of traffic during lunchtime on the "yellow brick road" at the language school in St-Jean.  A simple "good morning etc" should suffice in these situations (I learned to carefully time my walks at meal times).

Cheers,

2B

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Offline Inch

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Re: protocol
« Reply #46 on: January 28, 2005, 05:42:16 »
The comment on the Air Force is understood and I know first name basis is part of aircrew culture and has been for years. Seen. However, a former Inf Offr I knew who became a pilot years ago told me that where it can cause problem is amongst all those thousands of Air Force people who will never set foot in a plane except as a passenger. Particularly, he said, in situations like BDF, and ground search and rescue under demanding conditions, where they are called upon to do things that may be more "Army" than "Air Force" he stated that he had seen situations in which the "buddy" approach started to come undone.

However, I am a strong believer in separate services, each with their own culture for their own reasons. We Army (esp Cbt A) act the way we do for our own reasons, as do the "blue guys". Where the problem arises IMHO is when Joe the Supply Tech who just came off three years in Wing Supply arrives in Admin Coy of an Inf Bn and wants to call the CSM "Jim". This does not work, but IMHO is an example of one of the inherent failings of Unification: the attempt to deny that there are separate military cultures for good reasons. As evolution since 1967 has shown us, these cultures are still strong and have survived the attempt to mush us all into one purple blob. Cheers.

pbi, that's a great post. I agree, first names have a place and in most instances, the military isn't the place with the exception that I noted in my last post.  Even though I was on the "farm team" as an armoured crewman, I fully understand how and why the army does things the way they do and I wasn't criticising it at all.
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Offline PikaChe

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Re: protocol
« Reply #47 on: January 28, 2005, 14:16:10 »
The whole rank and first names issue outside of unit time can be tricky in the reserves when superiors and subordinates can be peers in their civilian lives. Go with your gut, but freely using first names is a step down a potentially slippery slope. I went to school with many of my soldiers in my Troops in the Reserves and it was tough to strike a balance. As for me, I addressed my superiors as "sir" regardless.

This does not address the issue of when an officer and a NCO are friends.

I just think if a soldier is professional, he'd know the boundaries and ensure that the boundaries between friendship and professionalism is known between the two.

Offline Tango2Bravo

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Re: protocol
« Reply #48 on: January 29, 2005, 00:15:28 »
RoyalHighlandFusilier,

You are certainly correct that friendship between ranks is a dynamic that must be considered. 

As an aside, I play hockey (on the Regimental C team) and our coach is a Trooper.  With regards to the team he is in charge and rank is certainly not an issue on the ice and in the dressing room.  Outside the arena the normal rules prevail.  This supports your comment about boundaries, although sports has more clear boundaries than friendship.

Cheers,

2B
Well-trained, older Panzer crews are the decisive factor for success...It is preferable to start off with fewer Panzers than to set out with young crews who lack combat experience.

 - Verbal report of Gen Balck 1943

Offline pbi

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Re: protocol
« Reply #49 on: January 30, 2005, 04:24:59 »
I have a good friend who is now a CWO. We have known each other since before we joined the RegF, and I was best man at his wedding. His wife and mine are friends from high school days. When the CWO and I see each other on duty, it is by the rules. When we are at each others' houses or I am out shooting gophers with him, it is as friends. Professionals know where the line is.

Cheers.
The Nation that makes a great distinction between its scholars and its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting done by fools. ...

The true measure of a man is what he would do if he knew he never would be found out...