Author Topic: Deaths of four Afghan women in Kingston "an honor killing"  (Read 26004 times)

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Offline Beltlink

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Re: Deaths of four Afghan women in Kingston "an honor killing"
« Reply #25 on: July 25, 2009, 02:42:29 »
I guess I may be a bad person for seeing this in my light.
I think it is a shameful discusting waste of a good automobile.
The bright side being five potential lunatics removed from the streets one way or the other.
Still brighter yet, they kept it amongst themslves.
And I do appreciate that. No innocent bystanders getting whacked for a change.
Real deep down in your hearts you all appreciate it too. All your family getting home that day not getting caught up in a crossfire or worse because some lunatic gets the kooky religion itch.
(It's OK -- that don't make you bad).
I don't condone senseless killings, but I would stand back and watch a dog eat a dog.
And yes, I do sleep well at night.
Right after my prayers of thanking our Vets for my freedom.

Offline Smity199

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Re: Deaths of four Afghan women in Kingston "an honor killing"
« Reply #26 on: July 25, 2009, 03:36:07 »
Good riddance, ship em all back in my opinion
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Offline FastEddy

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Re: Deaths of four Afghan women in Kingston "an honor killing"
« Reply #27 on: July 25, 2009, 03:50:56 »
I guess I may be a bad person for seeing this in my light.
I think it is a shameful discusting waste of a good automobile.
The bright side being five potential lunatics removed from the streets one way or the other.
Still brighter yet, they kept it amongst themslves.
And I do appreciate that. No innocent bystanders getting whacked for a change.
Real deep down in your hearts you all appreciate it too. All your family getting home that day not getting caught up in a crossfire or worse because some lunatic gets the kooky religion itch.
(It's OK -- that don't make you bad).
I don't condone senseless killings, but I would stand back and watch a dog eat a dog.
And yes, I do sleep well at night.
Right after my prayers of thanking our Vets for my freedom.



I won't attempt to critique your post as it speaks volumes for itself and the writer.

However, I don't think our Veterans had you in their mind or your philosophy.
Discipline By Example

Offline E.R. Campbell

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Re: Deaths of four Afghan women in Kingston "an honor killing"
« Reply #28 on: July 25, 2009, 08:38:10 »
The cultural problems we face have nothing much to do with Islam, per se, and are not even confined to predominantly Muslim Arab/Persian/West Asian peoples. Here in Canada there have been cases of “honour” killings amongst Indians (mostly Sikhs) and now, from the USA, we have this horrific story of the gang rape of a child and the consequential family “shame” (dishonour). It involves Liberians. There is no indication that the father’s shame is, in any way, religiously motivated. It is a cultural matter and, I repeat, it is an element of the barbarism that infects many illiberal cultures.


At the risk of repeating myself, the cultural spectrum does not run on a straight line:

Liberal --------------------------------------- Conservative


Rather the spectrum is more like this:

                                                   Conservative
Illiberal ----------------------------<
                                                    Liberal


Both Liberal and Conservative cultures are enlightened and highly civilized; they differ, primarily, in the emphasis they place on individual rights vs. social harmony. Illiberal societies, on the other hand, are less enlightened and less likely to have well developed civic institutions and values.

Canada is not quite as Liberal as many would like to believe but we are, certainly, not, in any meaningful way, illiberal. One risk we take, however, is that we pride ourselves on being, broadly, tolerant. That can be dangerous if we allow ourselves to “tolerate” barbaric social customs, imported from the illiberal world.
It is ill that men should kill one another in seditions, tumults and wars; but it is worse to bring nations to such misery, weakness and baseness
as to have neither strength nor courage to contend for anything; to have nothing left worth defending and to give the name of peace to desolation.
Algernon Sidney in Discourses Concerning Government, (1698)
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Offline George Wallace

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Re: Deaths of four Afghan women in Kingston "an honor killing"
« Reply #29 on: July 25, 2009, 09:56:36 »


Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act

Family conflict led to canal tragedy, says relative

LINK

25/07/2009 8:22:39 AM



The eldest of three sisters found dead in a submerged car last month was in a forbidden relationship with a young man before her death, according to a relative, who says the 19-year-old girl had clashed with her family earlier this year. 

CTV.ca News Staff

Zainab Shafia's body was discovered with those of two younger sisters, Sahar, 17, and Geeti, 13, on June 30. Also found dead in a submerged car in the Rideau Canal was Rona Amir Mohammad, a 50-year-old woman now identified as their father's first wife.

Father Mohammed Shafi, wife Tooba Mohammad Yahya and their son Hamed Mohammad Shafia, 18, have been charged with first-degree murder and conspiracy to commit murder in connection with the deaths.

Kingston police are investigating the possibility that the three girls and the woman were victims of a so-called "honour killing."

Rona's brother says that the family was locked in conflict and that the eldest daughter's romantic relationship with a young Pakistani man may have been a contributing factor in the tragedy.

"The parents of this girl did not want her to marry a Pakistani boy who didn't have any money. They didn't want that," relative Wali Abdali, who lives in France, told CTV Montreal on Friday.

Rona, who had previously been identified by the family as both an aunt and a cousin, lived with her husband, his second wife and their seven children at the family's Montreal home.

But the family arrangement was causing strain, according to Abdali.

"They didn't have a good relationship. The other woman didn't want my sister to stay in the house with them," he said in French.

The father reportedly took a second wife after it was found that Rona couldn't conceive. The marriages took place in Afghanistan in the late 1970s and early 1980s, where it is legal to have two wives.

According to Zarmina Fazel, who is the aunt of wife Tooba, Shafia is a smart businessman who has worked hard to build a life for his family in Canada.

Shafia owns at least three business, and last year, he bought a retail mall in Laval, Que., which is worth around $2 million, CTV Montreal reported.

Shafia was also building a large family home in a gated community in Brossard, a suburb east of Montreal.

Originally from Afghanistan, the family lived in Dubai for 15-years before coming to Canada two years ago.

Community reaction

Another relative defended her family members, in an interview with the Toronto Star.

But Zarmina Fazel, the aunt of the girls' mother, Tooba Mohammad Yahya, has alleged that the four victims died as part of a suicide bid by the eldest daughter, Zainab.

"Zainab was not normal," Fazel said. She defended both parents, saying that father Mohammed is "a very honest man" and that the teens' mother was "not that kind of person."

The three accused are being held in police custody until their next court appearance on Aug. 6.

The whole family was on the way back to their home near Montreal, in Saint-Leonard, Que., around the time the submerged car was discovered. They had been returning from a trip to Niagara Falls.

As rumours surrounding the deaths continue to circulate, Ihsaan Gardee, spokesman from the Canadian chapter of the Council on American-Islamic Relations, said the term "honour killing" is troublesome.

"With regards to the term honour killing thrown about, all Canadians soundly reject killing, by whatever name -- a killing is a killing," he said.

The term has been used to describe other high-profile cases in Canada, including the 2007 death of Toronto teenager Aqsa Parvez, who was allegedly killed by her father and brother after she refused to wear the traditional Muslim headscarf.

But Gardee said using the phrase sends the message that "the killing of women and children is the exclusive monopoly of any one faith or culture or ethnicity."

More on Link.
LINK
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Offline hauger

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Re: Deaths of four Afghan women in Kingston "an honor killing"
« Reply #30 on: July 25, 2009, 11:14:35 »

But Gardee said using the phrase sends the message that "the killing of women and children is the exclusive monopoly of any one faith or culture or ethnicity."


True, killing transends all races, colours, and creeds, but the motives[/i] involved in "honour killings" seem to be highly concentrated to one particular faith and culture.  Rather than ignore and divert responsibility, maybe particular communities leaders should take a strong stand against the mindset that leads to these acts.  That would probably be more useful than saying "hey, this stuff happens to every community".

Offline Piper

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Re: Deaths of four Afghan women in Kingston "an honor killing"
« Reply #31 on: July 25, 2009, 11:48:53 »
True, killing transends all races, colours, and creeds, but the motives[/i] involved in "honour killings" seem to be highly concentrated to one particular faith and culture.  Rather than ignore and divert responsibility, maybe particular communities leaders should take a strong stand against the mindset that leads to these acts.  That would probably be more useful than saying "hey, this stuff happens to every community".

Islam isn't the only faith with people that condone killing in the name of 'God'.

Christians are good at killing abortion doctors, witches (still happens in places like Africa) etc etc. Let ye without sin...

Just sayin'. 

Offline George Wallace

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Re: Deaths of four Afghan women in Kingston "an honor killing"
« Reply #32 on: July 25, 2009, 11:50:20 »
True, killing transends all races, colours, and creeds, but the motives[/i] involved in "honour killings" seem to be highly concentrated to one particular faith and culture.

I guess you haven't read much of the thread yet.  "Honour killings" ARE NOT concentrated to one particular FAITH.  Honour killings are found in several faiths such as Sikh, Hindi, etc.  No doubt you have heard of Vendettas as well?  Vendettas are not uncommon in every faith, especially around the Mediterranean, and Eastern Europe. 

But we digress.
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Re: Deaths of four Afghan women in Kingston "an honor killing"
« Reply #33 on: July 25, 2009, 11:51:55 »
Good riddance, ship em all back in my opinion
Ah, the old "the only good x is a dead x" school - good one...  ::)

Re:  media coverage, all are considered innocent until proven otherwise in our system, but it's interesting the different stories one gets from different family members (like many families anywhere, I guess) - this from today's Kingston Whig-Standard:
Quote
The older brother of a woman found dead in a submerged car in Kingston says the man accused of killing her told him roughly two months ago that his sister had "gone very bad."

Wali Abdali said he spoke to Mohammed Shafion the telephone about Abdali's sister, Rona Amir Mohammed, who married Shafi 30 years ago.

"She and the girls were going out without veils," Abdali told the Whig-Standard in a telephone interview yesterday from his home in Lyon, France, recounting his conversation with Shafi.

Shafi complained to Abdali that Mohammed and Shafi's daughters were also wearing skirts instead of pants, short-sleeved tops and they were taking pictures of each other while dressed that way.

"He (Shafi) was upset about all this," Abdali said, because Shafi, a native of Afghanistan, clung to very strict, old-fashioned views about how women should behave...
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Offline E.R. Campbell

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Re: Deaths of four Afghan women in Kingston "an honor killing"
« Reply #34 on: July 25, 2009, 13:14:03 »
I guess you haven't read much of the thread yet.  "Honour killings" ARE NOT concentrated to one particular FAITH.  Honour killings are found in several faiths such as Sikh, Hindi, etc.  No doubt you have heard of Vendettas as well?  Vendettas are not uncommon in every faith, especially around the Mediterranean, and Eastern Europe. 

But we digress.


Well, some Muslims believe they are.

Here, reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions (§29) of the Copyright Act from today’s National Post is a column by Tarek Fatah, described in the linked CBC item as ”a fierce critic of "radical" Islam”:

 http://www.nationalpost.com/news/story.html?id=1826529
Quote
How to cure the honour killings ‘cancer’
Comment

Tarek Fatah, National Post

Published: Friday, July 24, 2009

Almost as soon as news broke that the murders of three Afghan-Canadian teenage sisters and their father's first wife in Kingston, Ont., were possible "honour killings," some in the Muslim community reacted in the most predictable fashion: defensiveness and denial.

Instead of voicing outrage at the murders, two Muslim callers to my CFRB radio show in Toronto slammed me for raising the subject, and suggested I had some hidden agenda. "This has nothing to do with Islam," said one caller, despite the fact no one on the show had, to that point, even mentioned the word "Islam," let alone accused the religion of sanctioning honour killings.

The callers were not alone. The head of the Canadian branch of the Islamic Society of North America (ISNA) told the CBC more or less the same thing - that the story was unrelated to Islam, which apparently does not permit honour killings.

They are both right and wrong. It is true that Islam's holy book, the Koran, does not sanction honour killings. But to deny the fact that many incidents of honour killings are conducted by Muslim fathers, sons and brothers, and that many victims are Muslim women, is to exercise intellectual dishonesty. At worst, it is an attempt to shut off debate.

When Mississauga, Ont., teenager Aqsa Pervez was killed, everyone from Mullahs to so-called Muslim feminists claimed it was not an honour killing - even though there were allegations she had run afoul of her family for socializing with non-Muslim friends and not wearing a hijab. Critics then charged that to refer to the murder in such words was to be an anti-Muslim bigot. Humbug.

As I said, it is true that the Koran does not sanction such murders, but man-made sharia law, which has been falsely imputed divine status, does allow for the killing of women if they indulge in pre-marital or extra-marital consensual sex. This is precisely why so many progressive and liberal Muslims have opposed the introduction of sharia law in Canada.

There is no denying that Islam, in its contemporary expression, is obsessed with women's sexuality, and considers it a fundamental problem. The hijab, the niqab, the burka and polygamy are all manifestations of this phobia.

The mullahs and the mosque leadership may deny their role in ensuring that Muslim women are second-class citizens within the community, but the place they reserve for women in the house of God, the Mosque, reveals their real conviction. Other than one mosque in Toronto, not a single other is willing to let Muslim women sit in the front row. They are sent to the back, or behind curtains, or pushed into basements or balconies, for they are considered not as our mothers or daughters and sisters, but as sexual triggers that may ignite male passions.

Honour killings take place because some Muslims have been convinced by their mullahs that the burden of their family's honour and their religion is vested in the virginity of their daughters and sisters. Most mullahs acknowledge that according to sharia law, a woman who has consensual sex with a man outside marriage deserves to be lashed in public or stoned to death by an Islamic State or an Islamic court. Don't these Islamists see how this interpretation can be taken as a license by men to take the law into their own hands?

Not until Muslim clerics and imams seriously abandon their notion about women being the possession of men will we begin to address the cancer of honour killings, which take more than 5,000 lives in South Asia and the Middle East alone.

The underlying mentality is a problem in virtually all parts of the world. In October 2006, for instance, an Australian imam of Lebanese descent, the country's most senior Muslim cleric, triggered outrage when he described women who dress immodestly (in his view) as "uncovered meat" who invite sexual attacks. Sheikh Taj Al-din al-Hilali, the so-called Mufti of Australia, condemned women who, he said, "sway suggestively," wear makeup, and do not wear the hijab.

Until 2007, only men had translated the Koran and interpreted it. That's because the very idea of a woman translating the holy book offends Islamists. Consider, for example, the reaction to the first-ever translation by a woman - Laleh Bakhtiar's The Sublime Quran - two years ago.

Mohammad Ashraf of the Canadian branch of the Islamic Society of North America (ISNA) - the same gentleman who this week told the CBC that there was no provision for honour killings in Islam - told The Toronto Star that he would not permit The Sublime Quran to be sold in the ISNA bookstore. "Our bookstore would not allow this kind of translation," he said. "I will consider banning it ... This woman-friendly translation will be out of line and will not fly too far."

What had Laleh Bakhtiar done to deserve the punishment of having her translation of the Koran banned from ISNA's Islamic bookstores? Her fault, in the eyes of Islamists, is that she believes the Koran does not condone spousal abuse, as claimed by Islamists.

If a woman's translation of the Koran is banned from an Islamic bookstore, what is available at such places. At one Toronto bookstore, the title of a gaudy paperback screamed at passersby: Women Who Deserve to Go to Hell. The book, which is also widely available in British libraries and mosques, lists the type of women who will face eternal damnation. Among them are:

• "The Grumbler ... the woman who complains against her husband every now and then is one of Hell."
• "The Woman Who Adorns Herself."
• "The Woman Who Apes Men, Tattoos, Cuts Hair Short and Alters Nature."

Not until the leadership of the Muslim clergy takes steps to end gender apartheid and misogyny will they be taken seriously when they say, "honour killing" is not permitted by Islam. They cannot have it both ways: proclaim women as the source of sin as well as deserving of death for consensual sex, and then claim the men who carry out the death sentence are acting against Islamic law.

National Post

I certainly agree with Fatah that many, far too many, Islamic “clergy” are quite irresponsible when they (incorrectly) mix Arab/Persian/West Asian cultural norms with Islam; the two are not the same.

I also agree with Fatah that Sharia Law is wholly and completely incompatible with Canadian values and must never be allowed to gain a foothold here. (Parenthetically, we should also refuse to recognize Jewish and Christian “law” also – including religious divorces and ecclesiastical courts which, now and gain, punish members of the clergy for some infractions. Civil remedies to civil problems should be found, exclusively, in civil institutions: courts and/or mediators. If rabbis, for example, want to mediate marriage disputes and then recommend a civil divorce that it fine but the Get, the rabbinical divorce, should not be recognized or, in any way, required in Canada.)

The real problem is that some cultural “communities," many of which happen to have large, strong Muslim communities embedded within them, have “values,” including patriarchal “values” that consign women to the status of property and which allow, even encourage, male violence against women, which must be intolerable here in Canada.

Again, accepting the risk of repeating myself: my life experiences (nearly seven decades including living and working on several continents) have taught me that all people are equal, but that cultures are not. Some cultures, our Anglo-American one included, are superior and others are flawed. We, Canadians in Canada, cannot, indeed must not “tolerate” the flaws in other cultures.


It is ill that men should kill one another in seditions, tumults and wars; but it is worse to bring nations to such misery, weakness and baseness
as to have neither strength nor courage to contend for anything; to have nothing left worth defending and to give the name of peace to desolation.
Algernon Sidney in Discourses Concerning Government, (1698)
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Offline Beltlink

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Re: Deaths of four Afghan women in Kingston "an honor killing"
« Reply #35 on: July 25, 2009, 13:35:45 »

Fast Eddie wrote---
"I won't attempt to critique your post as it speaks volumes for itself and the writer."

You just did, and there is nothing wrong with that either.

Fast Eddie wrote---

"However, I don't think our Veterans had you in their mind or your philosophy."

If this country is going to embrace multiculterism then do so.
Warts and all. Quit complaining because you let a lamb in the front door and it grows into something else.
Far to many people beleive that the toothless lions guarding the front gate are doing a good job.
If so --- then why is the back gate wide open ??????
Also there are far too many peope that think they can pet an aligator.

All anyone has to do is look at Europe (with their eyes open that is).
Britain, France, Belgium Holland -- the names of these countries and more should be familiar.

There in that list is what happens when toothless lions run the show.

History repeats itself and at the same time -- it expands.

When the carnage hits the streets here some may want to come back and read my post.
And I have talked to Veterans. From WW1 to present.
The only difference between myself and others that have talked to them, I beleive I listened.
Europe is in the mess it is in because they have allowed it. "Again and again", and now again.
And we are on the same trail.

Not in our time -- but in a time soon to come -- 49%/51% is all it will take to change the Lambs into Aligators.
Our own rules say so. Even I can't argue that one.

And in ending -- there is still a lot of sand in this country, room for more heads.
To my knowledge it is still free.

I don't allow sand on my property  -- it blurs my vision of the back gate.

Be well, and live in peace.




Offline zipperhead_cop

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Re: Deaths of four Afghan women in Kingston "an honor killing"
« Reply #36 on: July 28, 2009, 02:55:54 »
Far to many people beleive that the toothless lions guarding the front gate are doing a good job.

I would be curious to find out whom you think the "toothless lions" are. 

Would you have, perhaps, ever known of a poster named cmndr-cb? 
God loves stupid people.  That's why He made so many of them.

Of course forests contribute to climate change - you pointless, vacuous wankers.

Offline E.R. Campbell

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Re: Deaths of four Afghan women in Kingston "an honor killing"
« Reply #37 on: July 28, 2009, 08:58:21 »
Mr. Campbell, once again your sagacity contributes greatly to the quality of debate on this site.  However, and with all respect, may I offer a point of clarification?  A Get is not a requirement or a prerequisite for a divorce in Canada.  Rabbinical law holds that the civil laws of the country of residence take precedence to Rabbincal law.  All a Get does is enable the divorced parties to re-marry according to Jewish customs and traditions.  In the absence of one Canadian law holds that a Jewish couple can still divorce.   Nor does it tolerate one party using the refusal to grant a Get as a lever of coercion.

Curiously enough as a result of this linkage (or,perhaps more appropriately,lack thereof), Canadian law is providing a model for the amendment of Israeli divorce laws:

http://www.jewishindependent.ca/Archives/Oct05/archives05Oct14-03.html

Other than this perhaps pedantic point I, as I do frequently, agree with your thesis.

Thank you for that, Shec. I think I understood the fine distinction of what the Get does and doesn't get you (I cannot resist puns! It's a major character flaw.  :'(  ) but it is a point well worth making and we thank you for doing it.

I was unaware of the information on the link.

The Jews, (not and ethnic group or a "race") have a long, long "continuous" history - like the Afghans, Chinese and Persian/Iranians they are an "old" culture. Old cultures are often patriarchal. The Chinese have, nearly, but only in the cities, overcome their "age." Urban Chinese women are, for all practical purposes just as "equal" as urban Canadian women. The Afghans and Persian/Iranians are having more difficulty, even when they migrate to modern, liberal states. The Jews are, as they traditionally have, adapting to the societies in which they live and they are making Israel a modern, liberal society.
It is ill that men should kill one another in seditions, tumults and wars; but it is worse to bring nations to such misery, weakness and baseness
as to have neither strength nor courage to contend for anything; to have nothing left worth defending and to give the name of peace to desolation.
Algernon Sidney in Discourses Concerning Government, (1698)
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Offline Hamish Seggie

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Re: Deaths of four Afghan women in Kingston "an honor killing"
« Reply #38 on: July 28, 2009, 09:40:56 »
I guess I may be a bad person for seeing this in my light.
I think it is a shameful discusting waste of a good automobile.
The bright side being five potential lunatics removed from the streets one way or the other.
Still brighter yet, they kept it amongst themslves.
And I do appreciate that. No innocent bystanders getting whacked for a change.
Real deep down in your hearts you all appreciate it too. All your family getting home that day not getting caught up in a crossfire or worse because some lunatic gets the kooky religion itch.
(It's OK -- that don't make you bad).
I don't condone senseless killings, but I would stand back and watch a dog eat a dog.
And yes, I do sleep well at night.
Right after my prayers of thanking our Vets for my freedom.
I WILL comment on your post.

You, sir or madam, have no place alongside our Veterans. You are displaying racist tendencies which are not welcome here.
These women were not "lunatics". THEY were attempting to adapt to our norms, and were MURDERED for doing so.
MURDERING someone because they have besmirched some arrogant man's sense of "honour" is unacceptable. Period.
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“Do everything that is necessary and nothing that is not".

Offline Beltlink

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Re: Deaths of four Afghan women in Kingston "an honor killing"
« Reply #39 on: July 28, 2009, 11:38:24 »
I would be curious to find out whom you think the "toothless lions" are. 
(I beleive politicians are "toothless lions.)

Would you have, perhaps, ever known of a poster named cmndr-cb? 
(No -- )

You, sir or madam, have no place alongside our Veterans.
(Too late for that) -- and please --you don't have to call me sir.)

You are displaying racist tendencies which are not welcome here.
(I extend caution in many directions. When I said I would watch a dog eat a dog that included gangs that shoot each other up, drug dealers and the like.-- poor choice of words at the time I will admit.)

THEY were attempting to adapt to our norms, and were MURDERED for doing so.
MURDERING someone because they have besmirched some arrogant man's sense of "honour" is unacceptable. Period.
(The truth is -- we don not know exactly what went on -- there is nothing more than mere speculation --"at least that is the way I see it" -- given on this forum.)
( For all any of us know they may have been escapeing to warn others of foul deeds to come.)
(I merely stated that I was glad they kept it amongst themselves. I didn't ask that the whole of them be shipped out,or chastised as a religion.)
(And if you would care to note  -- I have never once given this situation the respect of calling it an "Honour Killing" as many have. There is no honour in this. If that it what the world chooses to call it. I prefered to, you will note, to refer it as a senseless killing. By continually calling it an honour killing merely brings recognition to those who commit these acts as being succesful. But all I suppose are or should bve free to call it what they choose.)
(You may e-mail as you wish "Old Soldier"  -- as you have -- I would prefer you didn't offer threats, even mild ones. You are ceretainly within your rights to say what you wish, which apparently I am not. Each of us have opnions. And I do welcome yours.But no need for that.)

(I will disengage from this post -- as it was not my intention to start a riot.)

In ending ---
"Old Soldier"
I see by your avitar you have suffered a great loss.
For that I am truely deeply sorry.
The personel Sacrifice of your Son and that of his Collegues and those in the world like them while extending their hand of help to those oppressed is in my opinion is where Honour has it's only place.
(I will Remember).

Be well, live in Peace.

Beltlink --- out.






Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: Deaths of four Afghan women in Kingston "an honor killing"
« Reply #40 on: July 28, 2009, 11:54:44 »
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I don't condone senseless killings, but I would stand back and watch a dog eat a dog.

The difference between a sheep and a Shepard.
There are no wolves on Fenris

Offline Hamish Seggie

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Re: Deaths of four Afghan women in Kingston "an honor killing"
« Reply #41 on: July 28, 2009, 11:55:35 »
Beltlink - no threats were intended. I'm just warning you that most of us....virtually all of us that post here regularly have a very....well we are like sheepdogs. We protect the flock or sheep, no matter who is in the flock. And as you know, sheepdogs don't like wolves very much.
My PM was intended to steer you straight.

Thank you!
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Offline E.R. Campbell

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Re: Deaths of four Afghan women in Kingston "an honor killing"
« Reply #42 on: July 29, 2009, 13:20:44 »
Barbara Kay has an opinion, reproduced here under the Fair Deal provisions (§29) of the Copyright Act from today’s National Post, but I think it is poorly conceived:

http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/fullcomment/archive/2009/07/29/barbara-kay-honour-killing-is-not-domestic-violence.aspx
Quote
Barbara Kay: Honour killing is not 'domestic' violence

July 29, 2009

Barbara Kay

Following news of the arrest last week of Mohammad Shafia, his wife, Tooba Mohammad Yahya, and their 18-year old son, Hamed, for the alleged murder of four female family members, a case exhibiting several earmarks of a culturally motivated crime, I steeled myself for the usual media scramble to deplore all acts of “domestic violence.” I was therefore pleased that Saturday’s Post instead featured plain-spoken anti-Islamist Tarek Fatah’s vigorous denunciation of the practice of “honour killing.”

No doubt ruffling many multi-culti feathers, the fearless Mr. Fatah, a distinguished scholar of Islam and religious hypocrisy’s scourge, categorically stated that “man-made shariah law, which has been falsely imputed divine status, does allow for the killing of women if they indulge in pre-marital or extramarital consensual sex.”

Liberals deliberately conflate domestic violence with honour killing because they feel that making any distinction would “racialize” the crimes, indicting a whole culture. But in order to avoid offending the minority communities in which honour killings occur, they must then “genderize” the practice by force-fitting it into the category of all male-on-female domestic violence.

For theory’s sake — all cultures are equal — they willingly indict an entire sex for these horrific crimes. Clearly liberal ideologues consider misandry a lesser evil than racism (and to many feminists no evil at all, rather an entitlement and a pleasure).

Male-female relations are culturally determined. In reality, for a Western man to kill a girl or woman under his protection for any “reason” at all — let alone her sexual choices — runs so counter to our own chivalric tradition of honour (vestigial as it is), that such rare acts are always linked to psychological derangement. To misrepresent the impulse to murder one’s wife or daughters as a generically male characteristic is a misandric slander, and every bit as contemptible as racism.

Part of the problem lies in the phrase “domestic violence,” which seems to encompass any violence that occurs in a household. And, unfortunately, it is received wisdom in our highly feminized society to believe that domestic violence, like honour killing, is a one-way street: male on female. That’s not the case, but cracking the shell of this unusually hard-boiled myth is a thankless task for truth-tellers in the field.

For greater clarity around domestic violence in Canada, we should use the term Inter Partner Violence (IPV), now favoured by many academics in this field. Normative IPV is violence that springs from psychologically troubled people — both men and women — who have problems dealing with intimate relationships, but have no healthy model for resolving them. Many of them have come from abusive backgrounds. Much of IPV involves alcohol, drugs or both, not the case with honour killing. IPV is usually situational and therefore spontaneous, rarely planned in advance like honour killing. Unlike honour killing, too, which invariably involves males killing females, about 50% of IPV is “assortative” — cases where damaged like seeks like — and the partners bilaterally provoke each other.

Canada’s male-on-female IPV murder numbers — about 45 women partners (not daughters) a year, low for a population of 35 million — are directly linked to an important cultural fact: Murdering women, especially their own loved ones, is anathema to healthy Western men. Unlike honour killings, such crimes are universally condemned: They are never validated, let alone encouraged in our institutions or houses of worship; indeed, all abuse of women is abominated rather than tolerated in the general culture.

We must understand above all that IPV and honour killings represent different stakes for society. IPV is not sociologically catchy: Healthy people do not take their intimate relationship cues from the pathological amongst them. Honour killing, on the other hand, is a form of ideological terrorism linked to a particular religious and cultural outlook, an implied threat to other women of what can happen if they don’t toe the party line and an emboldening “inspiration” to their male cultural peers. Like suicide bombing, another culturally induced form of hysteria, honour killing is a sick practice that can go viral if not nipped in the bud.

Cravenly ascribing the problem of honour killings to all men’s nature, which is what we do when we subsume it under the heading of domestic violence, itself misunderstood, rather than acknowledging the specific cultural matrix from which the phenomenon emerges, will only end in more dead innocent girls and women. That seems a rather high price to pay for our liberal elites’ pleasure in dancing to the vivacious gallopade of the multicultural-correctness polka.

National Post

bkay@videotron.ca


At the (continuing) risk of repeating myself: “honour killings” are not part of or condoned by Islam. Any Muslim who, even a “holy man” with a PhD in the topic who suggest that Islam does permit such a thing is, clearly, an ignoramus.

“Honour” killings are part and parcel of several cultures – and not just “foreign,” dark skinneedc cultures, either.

Ms. Kay gets close to the truth when she mentions our ”chivalric tradition of honour”, which is about 1,000 years old.

Other cultures have “codes of honour” related to a warrior class – including the Arabs, from whom European chivalry likely came, via Spain - but few (none of which I am aware) incorporated the ideas of “courtly love” and the “responsibility to protect” women that came to exemplify European chivalry by, say, 1,000 years ago.

One other factor is urban vs. rural societies.

Western Europe was, by 1,000, essentially a “settled” place. So were China, India and Japan. North Africa, the Middle East and West Asia were still nomadic – herding, raiding and trading societies, in the main. Women took increasingly important and “valuable” roles in settled societies, whether in the town or on the farm, as they “specialized” (see Adam Smith, et al) and their responsible roles gave them status and independence and made it important to protect them. Women were (still are) less critical in nomadic societies and there was, and still is, a tendency to “commodify” them and make them property – like the animals.

The cultural problem is that women are perceived, in some cultures, to lack value, except as ”reflections” of the status and “honour” of their the patriarchal families. When that happens it is too easy to remove their humanity and consider them as property rather than as “loved ones.” Religion has nothing to do with it, except for the fact that many of the “weak,” indeed inferior cultures in which such customs are common happen to be Islamic. The “strong,” superior cultures resisted Islam and turned it away when the opportunity arose and kept their superior values.
It is ill that men should kill one another in seditions, tumults and wars; but it is worse to bring nations to such misery, weakness and baseness
as to have neither strength nor courage to contend for anything; to have nothing left worth defending and to give the name of peace to desolation.
Algernon Sidney in Discourses Concerning Government, (1698)
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Offline E.R. Campbell

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Re: Deaths of four Afghan women in Kingston "an honor killing"
« Reply #43 on: July 30, 2009, 08:41:44 »
The cultural proclivity to treat women as private property  - imposed modesty being, in fact, a way to enhance that ”privacy” - and to enforce that status through both mosques and law courts is alive and well in Sudan as this article, reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions (§29) of the Copyright Act from today’s National Post, illustrates:

http://www.ottawacitizen.com/Woman+accused+immodesty+wearing+pants+braves+lashes/1843576/story.html
Quote
Woman accused of immodesty for wearing pants braves 40 lashes
 Former journalist's fight will test Sudan's decency laws, lawyer says
 
Andrew Heavens, Reuters
July 30, 2009
 
'Thousands of women are punished with lashes in Sudan but they stay silent,' says Lubna Hussein.

A Sudanese woman facing 40 lashes for wearing pants in public made her first appearance in a court packed with supporters Wednesday, in what her lawyer described as a test case of Sudan's decency laws.

There were chaotic scenes as Lubna Hussein, a former journalist who works for the United Nations, attended the hearing wearing the same green pants that got her arrested for immodest dress.

Indecency cases are not uncommon in Sudan, where there is a large cultural gap between the mostly Muslim and Arab-oriented north and the mainly black and Christian south. But Hussein has attracted attention by publicizing her case, inviting journalists to hearings and using it to campaign against sporadically imposed dress codes.

The trial, which was also attended by diplomats from the embassies of Canada, France, Sweden and Spain, was adjourned Wednesday as lawyers discussed whether her status as a UN employee gave her legal immunity.

Defence lawyer Nabil Adib Abdalla said Hussein had agreed to resign from the United Nations in time for the next court session Aug. 4 to make sure the case continued.

"First of all, she wants to show she is totally innocent, and using her immunity will not prove that," Abdalla said. "Second she wants to fight the law. The law is too wide. It needs to be reformed. ... This is turning into a test case."

He said Hussein was ready to face the maximum penalty for the criminal offence of wearing indecent dress in public -- 40 lashes and an unlimited fine.

"Thousands of women are punished with lashes in Sudan but they stay silent," Hussein said before the hearing. "The law is being used to harass women and I want to expose this."

© Copyright (c) The Ottawa Citizen


I take minor issue with one tiny bit of the story. My understanding, at it may be flawed, is that most of Southern Sudan is animist rather that Christian but that’s just a quibble.

The issue is slavery. That is what too many “inferior” cultures still practice. Slavery is still common in Sudan and that reinforces the idea that women can be private property, too.

The end* of slavery in the West followed our enlightenment. Slavery still persists in China and, I think in other parts of Asia, but Confucians, especially, have long condemned the idea of people as property even they accept that bondage might be a “natural” state of misfortune.

The point is that most African, Middle Eastern and West Asian cultures are in dire need of some enlightenment that, based on our experience, may not be possible until there has been a religious reformation.

Reformations, again based on our experience, in the West, are usually long lasting and very violent events. 


--------------------
* But not as early as we usually think. Indentured servitude (which might as well have been slavery) persisted, in Canada, well into the late 19th century.
It is ill that men should kill one another in seditions, tumults and wars; but it is worse to bring nations to such misery, weakness and baseness
as to have neither strength nor courage to contend for anything; to have nothing left worth defending and to give the name of peace to desolation.
Algernon Sidney in Discourses Concerning Government, (1698)
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Offline GAP

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Re: Deaths of four Afghan women in Kingston "an honor killing"
« Reply #44 on: July 30, 2009, 09:09:01 »
Quote
The end* of slavery in the West followed our enlightenment. Slavery still persists in China and, I think in other parts of Asia, but Confucians, especially, have long condemned the idea of people as property even they accept that bondage might be a “natural” state of misfortune.

Slavery in its' many forms is still alive and well in the West....we just put a polite face on it and call it something else....from the asians who come over as indentured servants to the Nannies who live a life of restriction by their "employers"....
Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I´m not so sure about the universe

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Re: Deaths of four Afghan women in Kingston "an honor killing"
« Reply #45 on: August 05, 2009, 11:08:02 »
Peter Worthington's comment in The Sun

Some ‘honour’
A characteristic of honour killings is that the accused has no right of defence

Article Link

Why do they call it “honour killing”? It’s anything but honourable.

Then again, it’s like dictatorial tyrannies calling themselves “peoples’ democracies” when they’re neither for the people nor democratic.

The possible honour killings of four women found dead in a car in the Rideau Canal near Kingston would be only the latest manifestation of this obscenity.

The alleged perpetrators have been charged (including the father, mother and the girls’ brother), and if found guilty will be due for a long stay in Canada ... in prison. Some “honour”!

So-called “honour killings” are a worldwide phenomenon, if not epidemic, peculiar mainly to the Mideast and Asia, where a family member (usually female) has supposedly brought dishonour to the family or clan that can only be expunged by the person’s death.

Human rights and women’s groups point out there’s nothing in the Qur’an that dictates the murder of women for transgressions — usually sexual, but not necessarily.

Often, under-age boys in the offended family are assigned to kill the female offender because as minors they will be treated more leniently.

Too often there’s no penalty for the murderer(s). In some countries (Syria, Jordan, Egypt, Iran, Iraq) men who “honour” kill their wives (or daughters or sisters) for adultery, may be “exempt” from penalty.

Thousands of women are killed every year for reasons ranging from refusal to wear head coverings, to having a love poem written in their name, to having arguments over clothes.

There have been bizarre cases where a husband dreamed his wife was unfaithful, and so was thought justified in killing her. A girl in Turkey had her throat cut when her name was mentioned in a love poem on the radio.

National Geographic recalls that a mentally retarded girl in Pakistan who was raped, was subsequently executed because she supposedly brought shame to the tribe. A conservative estimate has three women per day subjected to honour killings in Pakistan.

A characteristic of honour killings is that the accused has no right of defence. There is no need to prove guilt — the accusation alone is enough to bring dishonour that can only be removed by execution.

According to UNICEF, some 5,000 brides in India are killed annually because their dowries are too small. In Latin America, when women are murdered in “crimes of passion,” it often results in a lesser penalty for their killers compared to other murders.

The UN’s Human Rights Commission has recorded “honour killings” in Britain, Canada, the U.S., throughout Europe, Bangladesh, Ecuador, Brazil, Egypt, Italy, Morocco, Sweden, Turkey, Uganda.

In some countries, honour killing is a cultural institution — Iran, Afghanistan, parts of Pakistan (where 1,000 women a year are victims).

It’s difficult to determine the number of honour killings, since they can be disguised and the community often closes ranks. In India, young women who have supposedly dishonoured their family have been set on fire.

In theory, honour killings also apply to men, but are much more rare. In sexual offences, women are usually blamed for tempting men, or provoking their illicit sexual behaviour.

Strangely, perhaps, it is often women themselves who justify honour killings. Similarly, some defend the burka or hijab as a matter of choice, and not as a symbol of subservience or male dominance.

If the murders of the four women in the submerged car in the Rideau Canal, which shocked the nation, were indeed honour killings, they are neither unique nor unusual among those familiar with the despicable practice, which shows few signs of being curtailed.
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Offline templeton peck

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Re: Deaths of four Afghan women in Kingston "an honor killing"
« Reply #46 on: August 06, 2009, 21:48:51 »
Are we fighting and dying in Afghanistan in order to protect these people and their culture? We already know that young men handed over to Afg. authorities are routinely raped, the voting is rigged, and women still are property of men regardless of Taliban influence, so what are we really doing there? All these people know is death - to hell with them.
I realized fear one morning, with the blare of the fox hunter's sound. When they're all chasin' the poor bloody fox, 'tis safer to be dressed like the hound.

Offline Carcharodon Carcharias

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Re: Deaths of four Afghan women in Kingston "an honor killing"
« Reply #47 on: August 06, 2009, 23:22:26 »
Are we fighting and dying in Afghanistan in order to protect these people and their culture? We already know that young men handed over to Afg. authorities are routinely raped, the voting is rigged, and women still are property of men regardless of Taliban influence, so what are we really doing there? All these people know is death - to hell with them.

.....and what do yu suggest?

OWDU
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Offline Foxhound

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Re: Deaths of four Afghan women in Kingston "an honor killing"
« Reply #48 on: August 07, 2009, 21:22:58 »
All these people know is death - to hell with them.

Which "these people"?
1983 - Regimental Centennial
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Cpl. Bloggins, 1 RCR C of D: "Belfast Sahr!"
HRH Price Phillip, Duke of Edinburgh:  "Well Corporal, next time you go home, you'd better wear your iron knickers."

Offline templeton peck

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Re: Deaths of four Afghan women in Kingston "an honor killing"
« Reply #49 on: August 10, 2009, 14:41:54 »
.....and what do yu suggest?

OWDU
Well, how about not meddeling in their business for a start? How arrogant to think we can change them in the first place.
I realized fear one morning, with the blare of the fox hunter's sound. When they're all chasin' the poor bloody fox, 'tis safer to be dressed like the hound.