Author Topic: Turmoil in Libya (2011) and post-Gaddafi blowback  (Read 278045 times)

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Offline Hamish Seggie

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Re: Turmoil in Libya- 2011
« Reply #25 on: February 21, 2011, 20:13:56 »
I get a kick at "vigorously condemn"........does it work like this ?


"We condemn your actions"

"We don't care"

"No no....you don't understand, we vigorously condemn your actions"

"oh...well in that case we shall stop forthwith"


If I am Dictator Bob.....after you, the UN, vigorously condemn my actions,,,,I still don't care and in fact get worse!!
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Offline willellis

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Re: Turmoil in Libya- 2011
« Reply #26 on: February 21, 2011, 20:14:26 »
I wish you were wrong.....

Good read on the Italians and CR. I had no idea that the Italians were that tight with the Libyans.

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Re: Turmoil in Libya- 2011
« Reply #27 on: February 21, 2011, 20:16:47 »
I get a kick at "vigorously condemn"........does it work like this ?


"We condemn your actions"

"We don't care"

"No no....you don't understand, we vigorously condemn your actions"

"oh...well in that case we shall stop forthwith"

:)  Just the way things work above our pay grade I suppose.

Offline Not a Sig Op

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Re: Turmoil in Libya- 2011
« Reply #28 on: February 21, 2011, 20:42:10 »
Ever meet any Libyans? They have a very strange accent, at least in English... the couple I know sound like a cross between a stereo-typical arab, and a stereo-typical mafia don.
Remember troops, the minimum acceptable standard is still an acceptable standard.

Offline willellis

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Re: Turmoil in Libya- 2011
« Reply #29 on: February 21, 2011, 20:56:31 »
Ever meet any Libyans? They have a very strange accent, at least in English... the couple I know sound like a cross between a stereo-typical arab, and a stereo-typical mafia don.

 ;D


I have actually. Never really listened to their accent though. I imagine that it's the same with any country. Accent it regional. Your pals with must be from Little Italy.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2011, 22:12:23 by willellis »

Offline daftandbarmy

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Re: Turmoil in Libya- 2011
« Reply #30 on: February 21, 2011, 22:38:19 »
I wish you were wrong.....

Good read on the Italians and CR. I had no idea that the Italians were that tight with the Libyans.

They were once ruled by them:

"On 3 October 1911 the Italians attacked Tripoli, claiming somewhat disingenuously to be liberating Libya from Ottoman rule. Despite a major revolt by the Libyans, the Ottoman sultan ceded Libya to the Italians by signing the 1912 Treaty of Lausanne.

Tripoli was largely under Italian control by 1914,[6] but both Cyrenaica and the Fezzan were home to strivers led by the Senussis. Only in the late 1920s the Italians were able to take control of all Libya. Meanwhile 150,000 Italians settled in Libya between 1920 ad 1940, greatly developing Italian Libya in all areas."


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Libya


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Offline willellis

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Re: Turmoil in Libya- 2011
« Reply #31 on: February 21, 2011, 23:02:01 »
They were once ruled by them:

"On 3 October 1911 the Italians attacked Tripoli, claiming somewhat disingenuously to be liberating Libya from Ottoman rule. Despite a major revolt by the Libyans, the Ottoman sultan ceded Libya to the Italians by signing the 1912 Treaty of Lausanne.

Tripoli was largely under Italian control by 1914,[6] but both Cyrenaica and the Fezzan were home to strivers led by the Senussis. Only in the late 1920s the Italians were able to take control of all Libya. Meanwhile 150,000 Italians settled in Libya between 1920 ad 1940, greatly developing Italian Libya in all areas."


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Libya


Cool intel. That seems to be a relationship more one-sided than anything though. The way the story reads on the BBC News Network is that the Italians and Libyans were in economic and financial league with one-another. Also the Americans and the UK having so recently shown forgiveness for years of a tyrannical dictatorship, in order to sign oil trade agreements, looks like a  poor choice now. I suppose they made their millions, so what ever.  ::)

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Re: Turmoil in Libya- 2011
« Reply #32 on: February 22, 2011, 07:07:18 »
This from Reuters:
Quote
African mercenaries are being used by Libya to crush protests, prompting some army troops to switch sides to the opposition, Libya's ambassador to India, who resigned in the wake of the crackdown, said on Tuesday.

"They are from Africa, and speak French and other languages," Ali al-Essawi told Reuters in an interview, adding that he was receiving information from sources within the OPEC-member country.

Essawi, who has left the embassy since he resigned on Monday to protest the violent crackdown and is now staying at a hotel in New Delhi, said he had been told there had been army defections.

"They (troops) are Libyans and they cannot see foreigners killing Libyans so they moved beside the people," Essawi said, looking nervous and agitated ....

From Al Arabiya:
Quote
Libya recruited hundreds of mercenaries from Sub-Saharan Africa to help quell a popular uprising that is threatening to unseat veteran leader Muammar Gaddafi after more than 41 years in office, witness told Al Arabiya from the eastern city of Benghazi on Sunday.

The witnesses said protesters in Benghazi caught some "African mercenaries" who spoke French and who admitted that they were ordered by Muammar Gaddafi's son, Khamis Gaddafi, to fire live ammunition at demonstrators.

The witnesses, who refused to be named for security reasons, added that they saw four airplanes carrying "African mercenaries" land in Benina International Airport near the city of Benghazi, the second largest city in the country.

UK-based Libyan website www.jeel-libya.net (Libya's generation) reported earlier that a number of airplanes carrying "African mercenaries" had landed in Mitiga military airport, 11 km east of the capital Tripoli, and they were dressed in Libyan army uniform. The website added that some of those "mercenaries" were sent to hot spots in the eastern region were deployed in Tripoli ....

Libya is denying the claims - this from Khaled Gaeem, under-secretary of Libya's foreign ministry, via Al Jazeera English:
Quote
.... I am ready - not only to resign from my post - but also set myself on fire in the Green Square - if it is confirmed that there were mercenaries from African states coming by planes and if it is confirmed that there was aerial bombardment ....
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Re: Turmoil in Libya- 2011
« Reply #33 on: February 22, 2011, 09:56:10 »
"We condemn your actions"

"We don't care"

"No no....you don't understand, we vigorously condemn your actions"

"oh...well in that case we shall stop forthwith"
Good one - highlights below mine.
18 Feb 11, U.N. High Commissioner for Human Rights Navi Pillay - "The UN High Commissioner for Human Rights on Friday condemned as illegal and excessively heavy-handed the response of a number of governments in the Middle East and North Africa to the legitimate demands of their people .... Pillay expressed deep regret for the deaths in recent weeks of protestors in Algeria, Bahrain, Iran, Iraq, Libya and Yemen, adding that she was particularly troubled by targeted attacks by security forces on certain professions .... Pillay condemned the use of live ammunition in recent days against peaceful protestors in Libya, the use of electric tasers and batons in Yemen, and the use of military-grade shotguns in Bahrain.  She expressed serious concern at recent remarks made by some parliamentarians in Iran calling for the execution of opposition leaders. Pillay said dialogue with political opponents is far more effective than their arbitrary detention in creating a stable society ...."

20 Feb 11, comments attributed to U.N. SecGen - "The Secretary-General has been closely following the developments in North Africa and the Middle East, including Bahrain, Libya, Yemen and other countries, and remains very concerned about reports of escalating violence and bloodshed.  The Secretary-General reiterates his call for the non-use of force and respect for basic freedoms. Stressing that utmost restraint must be exercised by all concerned, he wishes to reaffirm his conviction that this is the time for broad-based dialogue and for genuine social and political reform ...."

21 Feb 11, comments attributed to U.N. SecGen - "The Secretary-General is outraged at press reports that the Libyan authorities have been firing at demonstrators from war planes and helicopters.  Such attacks against civilians, if confirmed, would constitute a serious violation of international humanitarian law and would be condemned by the Secretary-General in the strongest terms.  He once again calls for an immediate end to the violence.  The Secretary-General has been in close touch with key member states about the developing situation."
“Most great military blunders stem from the good intentions of some high-ranking buffoon ...” – George MacDonald Fraser, "The Sheik and the Dustbin"

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Re: Turmoil in Libya- 2011
« Reply #34 on: February 22, 2011, 12:23:43 »
And what civil unrest would be complete without the de rigeur "I'm not leaving, I'm dying here" speech?

From the BBC:
Quote
Libyan leader Col Muammar Gaddafi has refused to stand down amid widespread anti-government protests which he said had tarnished the image of the country.

In his first major speech since unrest began last week, Col Gaddafi said the whole world looked up to Libya and that protests were "serving the devil".

Reading from the country's constitution, he said enemies of Libya would be executed.

Rights groups say nearly 300 have been killed in the violence so far.

A defiant and angry Col Gaddafi said that he had brought glory to Libya. As he had no official position in Libya from which to resign, he would remain the head of the revolution, he said.

He blamed the unrest on "cowards and traitors" who were seeking to portray Libya as a place of chaos and to "humiliate" Libyans.
Civil war threat

The protesters had been given drink and drugs, he said, frequently shouting and banging his fist on the table as the address continued.

He called on "those who love Muammar Gaddafi" to come on to the streets in support of him, telling them not to be afraid of the "gangs".

"Come out of your homes, attack them in their dens. Withdraw your children from the streets. They are drugging your children, they are making your children drunk and sending them to hell," he said.

"If matters require, we will use force, according to international law and the Libyan constitution," and warned that the country could descend into civil war or be occupied by the US if protests continued ....

The Times of Malta seems to have a decent summary, compiled during the speech (although not verbatim), shared in accordance with the Fair Dealing provisions (§29) of the Copyright  Act:
Quote
Gaddafi: 'I will not give up', 'we will chase the cockroaches'

Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi in a long, fighting and disjointed speech on state television this afternoon promised that he would not give up, as other leaders had done.

He said that 'cowards' were trying to distort the truth and giving a wrong picture of what was happening in Libya. Libyans, he said, were being shown as being 'bad people'.

The Libyan people, he said, should hold their heads high against the leaders of the world who were conspiring against them and wanted to tarnish the reputation of the people and the country.

Gaddafi said he would not give up and would resist to the end of his life because this was his country, watered by the Libyan people's blood.

The Libyan people, he said, would defy the tyranny of the United States and other countries.

"I am a warrior" Col Gaddafi said. He was fighting to give dignity to the country against a bunch of rats who were paid to disfigure the country.

"I am not going to leave this land, and I will die here as a martyr'.

The enemies, he said, knew that Col Gaddafi was not an ordinary person. His house had been bombed, his children had been killed. And the rats were with the United States.

But the Libyan people would not give up, Africa would not give up. Libya had defeated the colonialist Italy, the US and Britain, and would remain defiant.

Col Gaddafi said innocent people had been attacked in their homes and the streets by youths who had been manipulated. Such crimes, he said, would be investigated and the people would be defended.

This, he said, was a small, paid group used by others who stayed at home.

Col Gaddafi recalled how he, as the head of the revolution, had liberated Benghazi and Tobruk, ousting the American and British bases. The current generation should remember the high price which their fathers had paid for Libyan liberation, and their honour would not be tarnished.

The administration of the country, Col Gaddafi said, was in the hands of the people through their committees and congresses. He was calling on the people to administer the oil resources of the country through new municipal committees.

Referring to Benghazi (which is in protesters' hands), Col Gaddafi said he was calling on the people to liberate and purify that part of Libya and let it be run by its own people, not others. The young people in Benghazi should know that they had been duped and did not know what they were doing.

Tripoli, he said, was free and should be administered by its people.

The masses, he said, should take to the streets and form new committees and municipalities for local administration.

Those who sided with Gaddafi and the revolution should secure the streets and remember the evacuation of the Americans and the return of oil assets to the Libyan people, he added.

Force, he said, woudl be used according to Libyan and international law.

Col Gaddafi said that since he was not president, since he had no position, he would not resign. But he had his gun and he would fight for Libya.

The people should not let their young get drunk and be misled, he said. The gangs, like cockroaches, did not represent anyone, they were nothing, just a handful trying to imitate what had happened in Egypt and Tunisia after being drugged.

From tomorrow, he said, the police and the army would impose security. If these cockroaches were allowed to prevail, Libya would slide into darkness and lose its oil.

He had rebuilt Benghazi but they had destroyed it. They had also destroyed its airport. Other cities such as Derna had also been attacked.

But they had to be repulsed and the US should not be allowed to occupy Libya like Afghanistan. The enemy had to be chased and the terrorists had to be hanged. Anybody who took arms against Libya would be executed. Those who waged war against Libya would be put to death. Those who facilitated entry of the enemy into Libya or handed over Libyan cities would be executed.

Reading from a law book, Gaddafi said that all those who used force against the people would be punished by death. The same applied for those who took part in or instigated civil war,

Col Gaddafi said he had not ordered anyone to start firing yet, because had he done so, everything would be set ablaze and Libya would end up like Somalia.

He said the millions of Libyans should restore order, take back their oil assets and do what they liked with it.

Rebellion in Waco in the US , the coup in the Soviet Union and in Tiananmen Square had been repulsed with tanks because unity was more important, he said. Libya would also do whatever it takes not to allow part of the country (Benghazi and Derna) to be taken away.

After a number of long pauses, during which he read from sheets of paper, Col Gaddafi called on opponents to give up their weapons, their drugs and their ring leaders, and said that shops should reopen as normal.

It was unacceptable, he said, for the country to be torn apart or handed to the crazy people who did not know their history.

The speech, which lasted for more than an hour, ended at 6.06 p.m. At its end Col Gaddafi was hugged by an army officer.

So, is the pool now being set up in rows saying "Muhamar G. killed" or "Muhamar G. escapes" and columns guessing when it'll happen?
“Most great military blunders stem from the good intentions of some high-ranking buffoon ...” – George MacDonald Fraser, "The Sheik and the Dustbin"

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Offline Brihard

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Re: Turmoil in Libya- 2011
« Reply #35 on: February 22, 2011, 19:20:00 »
Made from the bombed out basement of his old house, no less.



I say just loiter a B2 right offshore tonight and wait for PID.
Pacificsm is doctrine fostered by a delusional minority and by the media, which holds forth the proposition it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.

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Re: Turmoil in Libya- 2011
« Reply #36 on: February 22, 2011, 19:43:34 »



I say just loiter a B2 right offshore tonight and wait for PID.

Why ?

Is there some kind of reason we should intervene in the internal affairs of a sovereign country ?

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Re: Turmoil in Libya- 2011
« Reply #37 on: February 22, 2011, 19:53:55 »
Why ?

Is there some kind of reason we should intervene in the internal affairs of a sovereign country ?

Yes. He's ordering the wholesale murder, by his armed forces, of his own citizens. This 'internal affairs of a sovereign country' bullshit has allowed any number of atrocities to occur over the past decades as the United Nations and other impotentt bodies wring their hands and write increasingly terse and angsty notes. He has lost all moral mandate to be in any position of governance, is committing undeniable crimes against humanity, and is a clear and present danger in the most immediate sense to the lives of the citizens of Libya.

If we can get a positive location on Gadhafi, drop a JDAM on him. It may not make things much better, but it will eliminate one factor that continues to make things worse. While we're at it, whack his sons who are cheerleading his massacres.

Don't get me wrong- if we can get our hands on him instead and put him on trial in the international criminal court, I'm fine with that too. But not if it means one additional person will die while we wait for the grab.

There are times where the precise, unapologetic, unannounced application of lethal force by an external actor is exactly what a given situation merits. This is one of them.
Pacificsm is doctrine fostered by a delusional minority and by the media, which holds forth the proposition it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.

Offline 57Chevy

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Re: Turmoil in Libya- 2011
« Reply #38 on: February 22, 2011, 20:08:27 »
On UN/Libya:
As the violence increases, so does the reaction from the international community. A spokesman for UN Secretary General Ban Ki-moon said Monday that the UN chief had had "extensive" telephone conversations with Gadhafi in which he had expressed his "deep concern at the escalating scale of violence and emphasized that it must stop immediately."
 
In Berlin, German Chancellor Angela Merkel was quoted by her spokesman as being "shocked"
 
Harper 'vigorously condemns' violence in Libya
 
US President Barack Obama is "considering all appropriate actions" on Libya
 
Cameron condemned the "completely appalling" violent response of the Libyan regime
 
Finland's Foreign Minister Alexander Stubb said EU sanctions against Gaddafi were warranted.
 
Italian Foreign Minister Franco Frattini was far more guarded in his criticism than his northern colleagues.
"We should not give the wrong impression of wanting to interfere"
 
Other such well selected words and phrases have been noted such as:

"outraged", "genocide", "strongly condemning",  "unacceptable bloodshed",
"very disturbing and shocking scenes", "appalling", "unacceptable use of force", 
"serious violation of international humanitarian law", "most vicious form of repression", 
 "mass atrocities now being perpetrated by the Libyan government against its own people"
 
That last one is attributed to the only ones who have enough balls to speak the truth
 24 rights groups urge US and EU to confront Libyan massacres...

Lip service
I can probably find the responses made by the many world leaders and other dignitaries regarding Libya all over the internet.
I would not be surprised to find that they all typically employ some form of worded phrase that has been manufactured
with the help of an inventory of personnel. I would surely suspect, of course, that there would no doubt be an emphasis made
on condemning the actions that their government has taken toward their people.
I would even begin to believe that their words are sincere, or at least I would hope that they are.
But words without action are puffs of hot air. Lip service, useless nonsense floored from some imaginary moral high ground.
The UN Charter is clear on these matters, quote, "should peaceful means be inadequate, member states are obliged to take
collective action in a timely and decisive manner."
 
In this case UN/Libya you are quite right. The UN that we have so faithfully implemented, deals in very little physical action even
where existing policies call for it to do so.
It is well known that all things begin in purity but over time become corrupt. So then this internally so-called great body
of bla bla has inadvertently met its uselessness. But we continue to oil substantially its non-functionality.
We even try to secure ourselves a seat inside that prestigious body to do as much of nothing as possible. And when we attempt to try to do even the least, we are quickly and abruptly vetoed. So then, what is it there for ?
A stumbling block ? A weigher of words ? A creator of illusions ? A worldwide fantasy ? A manipulator of agendas ?
 
What a disgrace.

Nations that boast themselves as being so far advanced over other nations should be aware that they are also exceedingly far advanced in national debt like uncountable trillions. Ironic as it may seem, those ever so advanced nations are also on the brink of bankruptcy. And we all know very well that some have already fallen victim.
So what do we do to rid ourselves of our self inflicted ever so heavier burden ? 
What does a country do after considering, implementing and then finally exhausting all the possibilities we make available to ourselves ?
What window of opportunity is left when nearly all of the GNP goes to pay the debt ?
The answer to that in not the hardest one to find is it now. It is not like it sits in a labyrinth of endless possibilities but it sure does open up a medusa of cans of worms. And the most important aspect that you likely count upon is that it will perhaps offer some sort of economic growth.
Wow !

As we are so reluctant and arrogant to not even try to learn from our past baggage of stupidity and ignorance, that we quicken ourselves to add more dead weight to it.
Perhaps someone in future-land will be able to determine where we went wrong.
Because we don't want to know. Nor do we even care to know. We are just so tied up into loving ourselves that there is just no room for anything else, including other peoples and oh !, perhaps not even our own children. Why should we give a hoot ? 
Hey ! Lest we forget, It was our forefathers who made those great sacrifices to ensure our freedom. They had a heart. And that is not all they had, they had enough guts to stand up for what is right. By their blood, sweat, tears, commitment and perseverance they earned there place to be remembered. We on the other hand have spoiled and corrupted that which they gave to us so freely.

By our inaction we will be left to pass on a gathering gloom of stench to fill the nostrils of the little ones. And who will stand up for them ?  What institution that we allow to be corrupted will finally put its foot down ?  We are not even able to 'stand tall' regarding the same institutions that we call upon to act.  How can we ? We mock them to their face when justice is called upon for other peoples and nations. But hey ! There had better be free flights for us out of harms way with toothbrushes and toothpaste made freely available or you will never hear the end of it.
Yeah, we so quickly allow the stomping out of life and turn the cheek on atrocities and all that for the oily measure of our own comfort.
Time to wake up all you weak "girlish" leaders.
MO 57C
 
Articles of interest:
World markets decline as unrest continues in Middle East

As protests crackdowns continue, West lines up to sell arms

                   (Articles Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act)

a short poem:       
 
     Lip Service
Continue to earnestly weigh
those lip served words
that knowingly fall upon the deaf.
Take no immediate action
that the noose be well set.
Go ahead without reluctance
and do those things 
that your mind
has been set to do.
Surely in your wisdom
you know
that we will grease the steel wheels
with babes,
and break our young
in their boots.
Bring with you the scale
for good measure,
for the baggage
of your allowance
will surely overwhelm.


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Re: Turmoil in Libya- 2011
« Reply #39 on: February 22, 2011, 20:29:43 »
In this case UN/Libya you are quite right
Thank you.
I even read works I disagree with;  life outside  an ideological echo chamber.

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Re: Turmoil in Libya- 2011
« Reply #40 on: February 22, 2011, 20:44:50 »
Mutually resolved by PM
 :salute:
« Last Edit: February 23, 2011, 09:26:21 by recceguy »
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Offline Hamish Seggie

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Re: Turmoil in Libya- 2011
« Reply #41 on: February 22, 2011, 21:30:37 »
Is it an atrocity what our Muamar is doing?

Yes it is.

BUT.....unless we get the OK from the UN, all we can do is "strongly condemn" his actions WRT the demonstrations.
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Re: Turmoil in Libya- 2011
« Reply #42 on: February 22, 2011, 21:47:02 »
Is it an atrocity what our Muamar is doing?

Yes it is.

BUT.....unless we get the OK from the UN, all we can do is "strongly condemn" his actions WRT the demonstrations.

And so far, the U.N. Security Council's had this to say after a session today (22 Feb 11) - cynical highlights mine:
Quote
.... The members of the Security Council expressed grave concern at the situation in Libya.  They condemned the violence and use of force against civilians, deplored the repression against peaceful demonstrators, and expressed deep regret at the deaths of hundreds of civilians.  They called for an immediate end to the violence and for steps to address the legitimate demands of the population, including through national dialogue.

The members of the Security Council called on the Government of Libya to meet its responsibility to protect its population.  They called upon the Libyan authorities to act with restraint, to respect human rights and international humanitarian law, and to allow immediate access for international human rights monitors and humanitarian agencies.

The members of the Security Council called for international humanitarian assistance to the people of Libya and expressed concern at the reports of shortages of medical supplies to treat the wounded.  They strongly urged the Libyan authorities to ensure the safe passage of humanitarian and medical supplies and humanitarian workers into the country.

The members of the Security Council underlined the need for the Government of Libya to respect the freedom of peaceful assembly and of expression, including freedom of the press.  They called for the immediate lifting of restrictions on all forms of the media.

The members of the Security Council stressed the importance of accountability.  They underscored the need to hold to account those responsible for attacks, including by forces under their control, on civilians.

The members of the Security Council expressed deep concern about the safety of foreign nationals in Libya.  They urged the Libyan authorities and all relevant parties to ensure the safety of all foreign nationals and facilitate the departure of those wishing to leave the country.

The members of the Security Council will continue to follow the situation closely.

Meanwhile, Canada's getting ready to help Canadians get outta Dodge - this from DFAIT:
Quote
.... The Government of Canada expects to have an evacuation flight out of Tripoli on Thursday, February 24th. Canada is also working very closely with like-minded countries to secure seats for Canadians on their evacuation flights.

Canadian citizens in Libya registered with the Registration of Canadians Abroad service (ROCA) will be contacted by our Emergency Operations Centre to determine their travel intentions. 

Canadians in Libya who wish to be evacuated should call the Emergency Operations Centre in Ottawa collect at 00-1-613-996-8885, or call the Embassy of Canada in Tripoli at 218 (21) 335-1633 in order to register their interest.

Canadian Government chartered flights will be operated on a cost-recovery basis. Canadians will be advised of the cost before boarding. Safe haven destinations will be in Europe.

Canadian citizens will be expected to make their own onward travel plans at their own expense.

Departure information may change without notice due to logistical difficulties ....
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Offline Brihard

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Re: Turmoil in Libya- 2011
« Reply #43 on: February 22, 2011, 23:15:07 »
Is it an atrocity what our Muamar is doing?

Yes it is.

BUT.....unless we get the OK from the UN, all we can do is "strongly condemn" his actions WRT the demonstrations.

I recognize the general merits of the Westphalian system, and the need, in most instances, to respect principles of sovereignty. This is a case however that points out the necessarily finite nature of sovereignty, and the moral hazard inherent in upholding it unflinchingly, and without regard for the consequences of doing so. Gadhafi has failed in his responsibility to his population, and in fact has turned on them fully, with murderous intent and effect. I stand by my call to smoke the ******* with a JDAM. I'm comfortable with a precedent stating that dictators who order their military to turn on their citizens become damned by their actions, and can either surrender immediately, or become fair game in order to protect innocent life. A man who still commands sufficient loyalty from some of the army to do what he's doing is a rogue, and must be treated as such. Sovereignty ceases to be paramount when a state fails to faithfully fulfill it's responsibilities to the body politic.
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Offline willellis

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Re: Turmoil in Libya- 2011
« Reply #44 on: February 22, 2011, 23:28:52 »
Yes. He's ordering the wholesale murder, by his armed forces, of his own citizens. This 'internal affairs of a sovereign country' bullshit has allowed any number of atrocities to occur over the past decades as the United Nations and other impotentt bodies wring their hands and write increasingly terse and angsty notes. He has lost all moral mandate to be in any position of governance, is committing undeniable crimes against humanity, and is a clear and present danger in the most immediate sense to the lives of the citizens of Libya.

If we can get a positive location on Gadhafi, drop a JDAM on him. It may not make things much better, but it will eliminate one factor that continues to make things worse. While we're at it, whack his sons who are cheerleading his massacres.

Don't get me wrong- if we can get our hands on him instead and put him on trial in the international criminal court, I'm fine with that too. But not if it means one additional person will die while we wait for the grab.

There are times where the precise, unapologetic, unannounced application of lethal force by an external actor is exactly what a given situation merits. This is one of them.

+1, but the US won't bomb one of their sources of oil.

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Re: Turmoil in Libya- 2011
« Reply #45 on: February 22, 2011, 23:30:16 »
+1, but the US won't bomb one of their sources of oil.

IIRC, they get almost none of their oil from Libya.
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Offline willellis

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Re: Turmoil in Libya- 2011
« Reply #46 on: February 22, 2011, 23:37:00 »
IIRC, they get almost none of their oil from Libya.

Quite probable, never the less, the US wouldn't look to good if they sign a business deal for oil, and then 7 years later, they are blowing the crap out of the country trying to find some lunatic.

Offline recceguy

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Re: Turmoil in Libya- 2011
« Reply #47 on: February 22, 2011, 23:38:58 »
Quite probable, never the less, the US wouldn't look to good if they sign a business deal for oil, and then 7 years later, they are blowing the crap out of the country trying to find some lunatic.

Didn't they just do that in a little place called Iraq?
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Re: Turmoil in Libya- 2011
« Reply #48 on: February 22, 2011, 23:39:47 »
+1, but the US won't bomb one of their sources of oil.

US imports of Libyan oil totaled 80 000 barels per day in 2009, representing only 5% of Libya's exports. Not exactly something to lose sleep over.

http://www.eia.doe.gov/cabs/Libya/Oil.html

Offline willellis

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Re: Turmoil in Libya- 2011
« Reply #49 on: February 22, 2011, 23:41:10 »
Didn't they just do that in a little place called Iraq?

Yup, and they look like idiots for doing so.