Author Topic: Why we pay Reservists what we do (Including Reg v.s. Cl B v.s. Cl C pay, and Double-Dippin')  (Read 242940 times)

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MAJOR_Baker

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I asked a Canadian Regular Force officer about pay for reserve officers while they are deployed (I apologize if I am not using CDN Army terms).  He stated that reserve soldiers do not receive the same pay as a regular force soldier.

1. Is that true?
2. Does it cause problems with deployments?
3. Do regular force soldiers look down on reservists as not being trained as well, does it cause any conflicts?

Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: Regular Force vs Reservist Pay
« Reply #1 on: September 19, 2003, 12:41:00 »
1. For the reservsts going on deployment (To bosnia anyways) they are now making the exact same as their regular force counterparts though their pay levels technically drop (ie. private 3 would be on paper a private 1 because of the time in rank ) they still make more than they normally would have.

3. Not always but a considerable amount of the time. Reserves here do not deploy at unit level with the exception of the new light patrol vehicle companies going to bosnia so often your placing a kid with a few years experence on thursday nights and week-ends in the mix with guys who do it 24/7 for half a dozen years give or take.
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Offline d53642

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Reservists want equal pay - Labour minister takes heat
« Reply #2 on: March 19, 2008, 18:03:04 »
http://www.thechronicleherald.ca/Metro/1044466.html

The federal labour minister was in Halifax on Tuesday trumpeting legislation aimed at protecting the civilian jobs of reservists while they’re conducting military training or deployed overseas.

But some people in the audience at HMCS Scotian seemed more interested in when reservists will be paid the same as their regular force counterparts.

"It’s a great first step, this initiative," said Petty Officer 1st Class Bernard Quigley, the coxswain of HMCS Shawinigan. "What about now, pay equity and equity of benefits for reserves who are standing full time, shoulder to shoulder with the reg force?

"There are many places where you will have a reservist doing exactly the same job, full time, beside the reg force member and the differences can be up to over $20,000 a year in pay and benefits."

Labour Minister Jean-Pierre Blackburn said that inequity won’t be covered by the new law.

"I’m sorry, I don’t have an answer for you right now," Mr. Blackburn said.

About 200 people in army and navy uniforms attended the minister’s speech.

"That’s why I think a lot of people were here today, because when they talked about labour, we were hoping it was more about pay equality between the reg force and the reserve," said Petty Officer 2nd Class Sonya Elson, a reservist cook who works full time in an administrative job with the navy.

"And yes, we do have a significant amount of difference. We do the same job as a reg force member . . . but yet we get paid less."

She earns about $46,000 a year for a job that pays her regular force counterparts $52,000 annually.

"It’s quite a big difference," said Petty Officer 2nd Class Elson, who has been working full time for the military for the past 10 years. She can’t join the regular force because her eyesight has degraded since joining the navy.

"Although the military allows me to do a reg force position, they won’t let me go reg force because of my eyesight," Petty Officer 2nd Class Elson said.

Petty Officer 2nd Class Ryan Byrne also questioned why reservists who are doing the same job as a regular force member aren’t paid the same.

"It’s not fair. But that’s the card you get dealt, I guess, being a reservist."

After a decade in the reserves, he’s now looking into joining the regular force because of the pay difference.

"The reserves has its benefits, but it also has its drawbacks," said Petty Officer 2nd Class Byrne, a navy cook who orders food rations for coastal defence vessels and submarines.

He doubts the government will ever pay reservists the same as regular force members for jobs here in Halifax.

"It’s all about money. It’s cheaper to employ a reservist in a position where a regular force would do it because there’s less money to hand out."

Reservists generally make 15 per cent less than their regular force counterparts, said Capt. Ron Kronstein of army public affairs.

"It’s seen as a form of compensation for not being posted or told where to go every few years," Capt. Kronstein said in an e-mail.

"There are always rumours that that gap is being closed because so many reservists are working full time. But right now it’s just that, a rumour."

Any time reservists work a contract over 180 days, they get full medical and dental benefits, he said.

When reservists volunteer, train and go to Afghanistan, they are paid the same as regular force soldiers, Capt. Kronstein said. "No difference in pay, benefits or anything else."

The Conservative government said the new legislation will protect the jobs of reservists who work in the federal civil service or in federally regulated industries. The proposed amendments to a handful of laws will also apply to reservists enrolled full time at post-secondary institutions by allowing them to keep their student status active in the Canada Student Loan program.

"When you come home from a mission, you return to your companies and to your work as civilians, it is important that Canada does everything it can to ensure that you never have to worry about being penalized for serving your country," Mr. Blackburn said.

The guarantee of unpaid leave for reservists is "a step in the right direction," said Lt.-Col. Robert Knapp, commanding officer of the Princess Louise Fusiliers, a reserve infantry regiment in Halifax.

Lt.-Col. Knapp was initially worried the new law would make employers reluctant to hire reservists.

"That was a concern of mine, coming here this morning, whether there was going to be any thumbscrews put to employers that may have that effect. That’s what we worry about a great deal as reservists, having difficulty finding jobs in the first place."

As an insurance broker with seven employees, he was also worried about "having onerous legislation imposed upon us that makes us extend benefits to employees that we really are uncomfortable with."

Nothing the minister said Tuesday falls into that category, Lt.-Col. Knapp said.

"Holding someone’s job, it’s no more onerous than a maternity leave," he said.

Six provinces, including Nova Scotia, have already passed legislation protecting reservists’ jobs.

« Last Edit: March 19, 2008, 18:14:45 by d53642 »

Offline Haggis

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Re: Reservists want equal pay - Labour minister takes heat
« Reply #3 on: March 19, 2008, 18:14:02 »
Equal pay would imply equal liability to serve/train.  Anywhere, anytime.  No saying "Sorry, I can't deploy until I finish college." or "I can't go on exercise this weekend.  My wife is ovulating."

A wise man once said "Be careful what you ask for.  You just might get it".
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Offline zipperhead_cop

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Re: Reservists want equal pay - Labour minister takes heat
« Reply #4 on: March 19, 2008, 18:15:52 »
Interesting.  I wonder if anyone will really pursue it.  Eliminating the Class B system would be quite the upheaval of the CF.
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Offline Oldiersay

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Re: Reservists want equal pay - Labour minister takes heat
« Reply #5 on: March 19, 2008, 18:16:48 »
  I think if the pay was equal, there would be far less people enlisting in the Regular force, and the Reserves would get rather large.
But more money would be great  ;D
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Re: Reservists want equal pay - Labour minister takes heat
« Reply #6 on: March 19, 2008, 18:17:57 »

But more money would be great  ;D

As noted above, be careful what you wish for.

Offline d53642

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Re: Reservists want equal pay - Labour minister takes heat
« Reply #7 on: March 19, 2008, 18:18:54 »
Being a former reservist and working at a reserve unit now as a reg force member, I don't agree either they should be on equal grounds.

I agree with you totally Haggis. Ran in my local paper and thought I would share it with everyone else.

Offline zipperhead_cop

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Re: Reservists want equal pay - Labour minister takes heat
« Reply #8 on: March 19, 2008, 18:19:49 »
  I think if the pay was equal, there would be far less people enlisting in the Regular force, and the Reserves would get rather large.
But more money would be great  ;D

But the Class B positions would still be the same number.  However, with a bit of competition for them maybe we could clear out some of the dead wood and get some solid people in some of the cushy positions.  
And the money would only be 15% more  :P
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Offline Shamrock

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Re: Reservists want equal pay - Labour minister takes heat
« Reply #9 on: March 19, 2008, 18:29:05 »
Equal pay would imply equal liability to serve/train.  Anywhere, anytime.  No saying "Sorry, I can't deploy until I finish college." or "I can't go on exercise this weekend.  My wife is ovulating."

I can't comment on equal liability in terms of service, but I do think this would be an excellent opportunity for reserve units to train their soldiers on the same courses and of the same length as their regular counterparts.  They serve in the same theatres and face the same risks -- their training and promotion periods should be on par with ours.

Offline ark

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Re: Reservists want equal pay - Labour minister takes heat
« Reply #10 on: March 19, 2008, 18:29:44 »
On top of what has been already said, reservists are generally promoted faster than Reg force members as Res careers are shorter but positions in units must be filled anyway.

If you are doing the same job as a Reg force member, why not join the reg force? I guess some want the best of both worlds with minimum sacrifice.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2008, 18:32:46 by ark »

Offline Yrys

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Re: Reservists want equal pay - Labour minister takes heat
« Reply #11 on: March 19, 2008, 18:32:49 »
"I can't go on exercise this weekend.  My wife is ovulating."

Is that coming from experience ?

civilian question : I thought that reservist was always part time job. Any thread here about reservist with full time job,
which jobs are they holding, for how long they can do that or anything related ?
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Offline X-mo-1979

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Re: Reservists want equal pay - Labour minister takes heat
« Reply #12 on: March 19, 2008, 18:35:44 »
I actually surfed away from this topic,but had to come back and voice my opinion.

The reserves have taken a way larger role in the CF since IIRC roto 13 to Bosnia.Ever since then a fair number of reservist have been deployed with each battle group.I 100% agree with the job protection for reservist,and hopefully this will also allow other reservist who before due to job could not deploy do so.

On the equal pay.At first reading it my first thought was why should they?They can pick their own jobs,become a civilian,pick and choose deployments to meet family commitments (wife having baby for example)etc.However then I realised its not my money!Honestly the way the benefits are finally heading towards the reserves it is starting to entice me as a regular force member to CT over and persue other goals such as school and other employment.

Has anyone up higher thought about what happens when you make the other side more enticing?

Offline TCBF

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Re: Reservists want equal pay - Labour minister takes heat
« Reply #13 on: March 19, 2008, 18:37:54 »
Interesting.  I wonder if anyone will really pursue it.  Eliminating the Class B system would be quite the upheaval of the CF.

- Class B positions are considered regional make-work programs: The locals get to play, but don't get posted away from their villages.  Keeps them paying taxes at home and everybody is happy.  Do we NEED all of those positions?

NO.

-  We ran things just fine without them before.  You could slash the Class B budgets and give the cash to the Class A budgets and the Militia could increase their strength.  
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Offline geo

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Re: Reservists want equal pay - Labour minister takes heat
« Reply #14 on: March 19, 2008, 18:40:04 »
There are tons of differences between the terms of service for reservists & regs.

Reservists who apply for an operational tasking within the framework of a TF are paid class "C" from the very moment that they have dagged green and are posted to their unit.

Reservists on class A are paid 85% of Reg salary.  They are also paid the equivalent of 9% "in lieu of vacation" pay.  so, all of a sudden we are talking about a reservist being paid 94% of Reg salary - without the committment of having to accept the tasking given to him.

Reservists on class B are paid 85% of Reg salary with vacation days tacked onto the end of their Class B employment.

When discussing reservists you have to discuss the benefits that the reservists on long term contracts are entitled to...

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Offline Haggis

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Re: Reservists want equal pay - Labour minister takes heat
« Reply #15 on: March 19, 2008, 18:41:58 »
Is that coming from experience ?

Yes, it is.  I heard this from one of my NCOs once.  And people wonder why I have grey hair.

Quote
civilian question : I thought that reservist was always part time job. Any thread here about reservist with full time job,
which jobs are they holding, for how long they can do that or anything related ?

The Reserves are part time, however Reservists have the OPTION of volunteering for deployments.  How long an employer  can/must/will hold a civilian positions for a deployed Reservist is determined by what province you live in, what legislation governs your type of employment and what your collective agreeement provides.
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Offline Oldiersay

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Re: Reservists want equal pay - Labour minister takes heat
« Reply #16 on: March 19, 2008, 18:43:33 »
But the Class B positions would still be the same number.  However, with a bit of competition for them maybe we could clear out some of the dead wood and get some solid people in some of the cushy positions. 
And the money would only be 15% more :P

Hey! That money is better in my pocket, then not.
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Re: Reservists want equal pay - Labour minister takes heat
« Reply #17 on: March 19, 2008, 18:47:20 »
Yes, it is.  I heard this from one of my NCOs once.  And people wonder why I have grey hair.

 :D Well, next time invite the wife to the excersice!

The Reserves are part time, however Reservists have the OPTION of volunteering for deployments.  How long an employer  can/must/will hold a civilian positions for a deployed Reservist is determined by what province you live in, what legislation governs your type of employment and what your collective agreeement provides.

I know about the option for reservists to deploy. But I was getting a vibe from this thread that they were reservists that hold full time job without the "deployment is required"
of regulars... I 'm curious about those...
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Offline geo

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Re: Reservists want equal pay - Labour minister takes heat
« Reply #18 on: March 19, 2008, 18:47:24 »
Yes, it is.  I heard this from one of my NCOs once.  And people wonder why I have grey hair.

The Reserves are part time, however Reservists have the OPTION of volunteering for deployments.  How long an employer  can/must/will hold a civilian positions for a deployed Reservist is determined by what province you live in, what legislation governs your type of employment and what your collective agreeement provides.
ALSO
Reservists are free to apply to fill temporary full time positions within the CF.  You will find reservists working at pert much every level of command throughout the CF.  Contracts can be for as long as 3 years... renewable
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Offline TCBF

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Re: Reservists want equal pay - Labour minister takes heat
« Reply #19 on: March 19, 2008, 18:49:37 »
We need a flexible system where the career manager gets to decide if a position is Class B or not.  That way, he could take a Regular or Reservist who has just came back from a bad tour and give him a year with the 4th Bn Foreskin Fusileers, or whatever.  The B occupying that position can slide into a tasking elsewhere or be made redundant.

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Offline dapaterson

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Re: Reservists want equal pay - Labour minister takes heat
« Reply #20 on: March 19, 2008, 18:50:23 »
TCBF:

interesting perspective.

Way out to lunch in many respects.

But interesting nonetheless...

Of the Army reservists working full time:  About 1/8 are outside the Army - lots in the recruiting and training systems, some scattered throughout NDHQ, and others working for other environments (and, of course, the dot COM and their RJFT HQs).  Of the remainder, they're in three roughly equal groups:  those deployed or in pre-deployment training; those working in Reserve units, and those backfilling the Reg F in area HQs, army schools, and bases.

In terms of the Res units, there's an official template for the full-time support they should get.  But the Reg F is failing to pull its weight - about 25% of those positions have gone unfilled.  So more reservists get hired to backfill those slots.  There are a few folks above and beyond those level as well.

-  We ran things just fine without them before.  You could slash the Class B budgets and give the cash to the Class A budgets and the Militia could increase their strength. 

And we also spent decades with the Reg F "training for war" but parked on their rucks doing nothing.  The Reserve contribution to the Army today is what's kept the Army from collapsing years ago (not my words - those of a Reg F BGen).
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Offline TCBF

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Re: Reservists want equal pay - Labour minister takes heat
« Reply #21 on: March 19, 2008, 18:52:08 »
ALSO
Reservists are free to apply to fill temporary full time positions within the CF.  You will find reservists working at pert much every level of command throughout the CF.  Contracts can be for as long as 3 years... renewable

- But those positions should not be sacred.  He may have a three year contract, buy if I need that posting for one of my people, the Career Manager should be able to de-list it as a Reserve vacancy and post in a Regular - before three years.
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Offline TCBF

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Re: Reservists want equal pay - Labour minister takes heat
« Reply #22 on: March 19, 2008, 18:53:53 »
And we also spent decades with the Reg F "training for war" but parked on their rucks doing nothing. 

 ;D

- You don't play well with others, do you?

"Disarming the Canadian public is part of the new humanitarian social agenda."   - Foreign Affairs Minister Lloyd Axeworthy at a Gun Control conference in Oslo, Norway in 1998.


"I didn’t feel that it was an act of violence; you know, I felt that it was an act of liberation, that’s how I felt you know." - Ann Hansen, Canadian 'Urban Guerrilla'(one of the "Squamish Five")

Offline dapaterson

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Re: Reservists want equal pay - Labour minister takes heat
« Reply #23 on: March 19, 2008, 19:00:21 »
Nah, why should I play nice?  >:D

But on a more serious note, right now the shortage of pers at key ranks means career managers don't have the luxury of posting people to "R&R" postings; instead, they work to fill the Pri 1 and pri 2 positions.  Anything else that gets filled is just gravy.  In certain corps, the Reg F is filling less than 40% of positions in support of Reserve units - they just don't have the people to do fill positions.

We are years away from getting to the new normal in personnel; the lack of Reg F recruiting in the 90s has lead to the shortfalls in mid-level leadership the Reg F is facing today.  No easy fixes - and an institution that is slow to adapt - all make for what promises to be an interesting decade ahead...

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Offline X-mo-1979

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Re: Reservists want equal pay - Labour minister takes heat
« Reply #24 on: March 19, 2008, 19:03:30 »
How about next we move into deploying FULL reserve units to support task forces as well.

-1H will deploy as a full unit to support the next battle group.Send out the job protection notification's and release those who can't go.Thus making a stronger unit with total experience and flush the guys who just want to stay in canada for 35 years looking good in uniform.

-students? put school as a secondary priority like us reg force bums trying to work,deploy, and get a BA done (not fun).

-Start posting class B positions to get a greater job knowledge/diverse learning.

But by this point next year there will proably be a 455th reserve Soldiers united union started. ;D