Author Topic: RegF Support Staff (RSS) - Reserve Trg hours [Merged]  (Read 58299 times)

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Offline Harris

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Re: RegF Support Staff (RSS) - Reserve Trg hours [Merged]
« Reply #25 on: October 23, 2011, 16:30:03 »
I have been talking with a few they appear to be using CTO for the evening and weekends. Which is fair, I think.

Agreed, this is fair, but just be aware it is not a requirement.  As was mentioned above a bit, CTO is not an official leave.  Units get away with using it nearly everywhere I've even been but it's at the CO's discretion.  CO's are "supposed" to use short leave to compensate pers.  Short leave is however limited to 2 days per month maximum.
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Offline wesleyd

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Re: RegF Support Staff (RSS) - Reserve Trg hours [Merged]
« Reply #26 on: October 23, 2011, 16:45:25 »
 "Bingo. Don't tell me the extra $250 a month you get as sea pay makes the difference for the extra working hours; you put those hours in because you believe in your job and because everyone understands it to be normal. The real problem here is that you arrived at your new unit believing that you were being sent on a "lifestyle" posting that would let you spend lots of time with your family, etc, etc, so expectations were out of whack with the realities of the job. Not your fault - I wish the "facts of life" for Reg F staff sent to support NRDs were better communicated to the people being posted in so they could decide if they're willing to make the commitment in advance of the posting."
It was more like 748/month. And it does make the time a little more bearable. I believe in my job regardless of where I work. I don't mind the commitment I just get the impression that the mentality is we are reg force and should be be available and at work seven days a week 24/7. I can get all the work done in the normal work week. The people who come in from other jobs are compensated for that time. I feel that I should be as well; don't even get me started on Class B folks who can't come in because there contract says they can't. I don't expect to be off at noon every day but I do expect to be home before suppertime and for the week ends. Not marching around some town in the middle of nowhere  on a Sunday or holiday that everyone else around me is getting paid to do while I am expected to be at work the next day. I have done over 7 years at sea. Not seven years sea time seven straight years that I have been away from home. At sea you have a specific mission that you commit 110% to succeed. The NRD although dedicated uses the term operational commitment for everything be it a parade where you march or a parade with floats and the like. The building doesn't sail, the NRD is there to augment the fleet. On the ship I had 12 people working directly for me along with being in charge of the plant while at sea and boarding party duties. I always managed to get PER's any PM and any other work done withing an 0800-1500 hrs day alongside and if anyone was required to stay past that they were always compensated through CTO. While at sea for long periods you have foreign ports to break that up which are generally sunday routines, except for us stokers, unless you were duty.
I will take your advice though and work out a schedule and present it up the chain to see what happens. After talking with several NRD's though the one I am at seems to be the exception to what is considered normal at other units.
Thanks

Offline Pusser

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Re: RegF Support Staff (RSS) - Reserve Trg hours [Merged]
« Reply #27 on: October 23, 2011, 22:06:36 »
Not to beat a dead horse here (I've already said what I needed to, which is just to approach the problem with comprehensive staff work), but the OP isn't really working 55 hours a week. Here's how the schedule looks in reality:

M - F: 0800 to 1600 (40 hours)
T & Th: 1900 to 2200 (6 hours)
(I have a feeling the one Saturday a week was a typo - should be one per month. No unit is budgeted that much, and they'll typically drop a training evening in lieu)

Less one-hour lunches every day (-5)
Less a half-hour at the gym every day (if he's taking advantage of it) (-2.5)

In reality, 55 hours a week pretty quickly turns into less than 40 if you approach it the way any civilian employer (even the public service) would. For sure, he's not going to be able to go home over lunch hours and in the three hours between the end of the normal work day and the beginning of the training night; he may even just stay at his desk in that time to clear up some work - but that's not because his bosses are forcing him to. We in the CF have the bad habit of equating "time away from home" with "time at work". There's not a company in the world that would recognize his schedule as 55 hours for the purposes of overtime.

And again, this isn't a vote of support for the decisions of his unit leadership - just a bit of devil's advocacy.

I call BS!  What the OP is describing is wrong - VERY wrong and accounting sophistry doesn't make it right.  He IS entitled to his time off and expecting him to work extra hours while pointing out "duty 24/7" or "15% more" is total BS.  In my old reserve unit, the RSS came in on training nights, but they also got time off during the week.  You don't have to call it CTO, you can call it shift work, where shifts vary in length, depending on the day. 

As an aside, if you do work from 0800 to 2200 (full day in the office plus the training night) you are entitled to supper at public expense (actual and reasonable costs up the daily rate for supper - provide there's no mess available).  Maybe after filing a few $30+ claims, your CO may change his tune.  See CFAO 36-14.

Sure, apes read Nietzsche.  They just don't understand it.

Offline Monsoon

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Re: RegF Support Staff (RSS) - Reserve Trg hours [Merged]
« Reply #28 on: October 24, 2011, 00:03:42 »
I call BS!  What the OP is describing is wrong - VERY wrong and accounting sophistry doesn't make it right.  He IS entitled to his time off and expecting him to work extra hours while pointing out "duty 24/7" or "15% more" is total BS.
I think you'll find the class "B" staff work the same schedule as the Reg F staff at the OP's unit. (I'm also a bit surprised that a Logistics officer would regard "subtraction" as "sophistry". Are you free to manage my budget by any chance?  ;D)

Quote
As an aside, if you do work from 0800 to 2200 (full day in the office plus the training night) you are entitled to supper at public expense (actual and reasonable costs up the daily rate for supper - provide there's no mess available).  Maybe after filing a few $30+ claims, your CO may change his tune.  See CFAO 36-14.
A good point - but that's an entitlement he can claim regardless of whether he's compensated with time off for the evening hours or not.

Offline Pusser

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Re: RegF Support Staff (RSS) - Reserve Trg hours [Merged]
« Reply #29 on: October 24, 2011, 10:22:25 »
I think you'll find the class "B" staff work the same schedule as the Reg F staff at the OP's unit. (I'm also a bit surprised that a Logistics officer would regard "subtraction" as "sophistry". Are you free to manage my budget by any chance?  ;D)
A good point - but that's an entitlement he can claim regardless of whether he's compensated with time off for the evening hours or not.

The sophistry comes from subtracting time  as "non-work time" simply because the member is not at his/her desk.  Most CF units work 0800-1600 (i.e. eight hours) and take an hour for lunch.  Furthermore, PT time is work time (operational/job requirement to maintain a level of fitness) and should not be deducted either. 
Sure, apes read Nietzsche.  They just don't understand it.

Offline Monsoon

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Re: RegF Support Staff (RSS) - Reserve Trg hours [Merged]
« Reply #30 on: October 24, 2011, 12:06:21 »
The sophistry comes from subtracting time  as "non-work time" simply because the member is not at his/her desk.  Most CF units work 0800-1600 (i.e. eight hours) and take an hour for lunch.
...and this one does not (unless the OP is successfully able to staff a request to try a different approach).

Quote
Furthermore, PT time is work time (operational/job requirement to maintain a level of fitness) and should not be deducted either.
Sure, bringing the total number of work hours up to 41. I just wanted to point out to the OP that this is something he can be doing on company time, if he's not already. If he's putting in his long week and going to the gym on his own time, this in effect "saves" him 2.5 hours.

Anyway - wesleyd, I've sent you a PM that will probably give you a good way forward. I'm not going to keep fighting a rearguard action against the "this isn't what I'd do for MY people" crowd, because frankly I agree with them. Just be aware that your command team is empowered to ask what they're asking of you and that they have some arguments in their favour that you'll encounter. The opinions of people who aren't them don't matter in this case, so make sure you approach this in a way that will convince them to change their minds, rather than try to force them with the overwhelming power of what other people think.

Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: RegF Support Staff (RSS) - Reserve Trg hours [Merged]
« Reply #31 on: October 24, 2011, 13:19:43 »
Stress leave for a month followed by half days for 2
Make sure you take afternoons off though so you can get your hour and a half  'on your own time' PT in during the morning ;)
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Offline CountDC

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Re: RegF Support Staff (RSS) - Reserve Trg hours [Merged]
« Reply #32 on: October 24, 2011, 13:40:09 »
A normal work day by time keeping standards for Reg F and full time Res is 7 hours (35 per week, at least it was when I did time keeping). That is of course taking into account 1 hour for lunch which in the normal world is usually not paid time. Anything more than that and the member is being required to work extra time.  A decent unit will recognize and schedule time off accordingly.  Seems you unfortunately did not get one of those.

We used to have a schedule that enabled the office to be manned at all hours of unit operation.

One unit we had staff that worked Mon to Fri regular hours.  The Sgt worked Mon - Thu days, Thu Evenings plus at least one weekend per month. The MCpl worked Tue-Fri days, Tue Evenings plus at least one weekend per month.  Cl A staff worked Tue/Thu evenings plus the work weekends each month.

Another Unit we worked an off set schedule on Tue and Thu, starting later in the day.  Time off for weekends were up to the supervisor and we always worked something out.

Unfortunately I also had a unit similar to yours - Mon to Fri plus Tue/Thu evenings and weekends.   

Good luck in finding a workable solution - hopefully it does work out for you.  I have a feeling though that you are at a unit that wants the warm body there just for the sake of having the warm body there regardless of work load.

I vote for Grimaldus suggestion.
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Offline Haggis

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Re: RegF Support Staff (RSS) - Reserve Trg hours [Merged]
« Reply #33 on: October 24, 2011, 14:11:54 »
Compensatory Time Off   ;)

CTO = undocumented Short Leave.  Many units give out CTO weekly to cover off working two nights a week plus weekends, to an extent where it exceeds the entitlement for Short Leave as described in the CF Leave Policy Manual:

"9.1.01 Policy
The purpose of short leave is to provide a member of the Regular Force or of the Reserve Force on Class "B" or "C" reserve service with time away from their duties to:
• Compensate, in part, for long hours worked during extended periods of operations/training or working on normal days of rest;
• Provide members with time away from their duties to conduct urgent personal business; or
• Reward exemplary work.

9.1.02 Reckoning time
Short leave is reckoned in hours to a maximum of 48 hours.

9.1.03 Approval authority
The CO may grant short leave.

9.1.04 Limitations
Short Leave shall not be granted:
More often than once in each month;
• For a period in excess of 48 hours;
• Consecutively with another period of short leave; and
• In conjunction with retirement leave."
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Offline Journeyman

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Re: RegF Support Staff (RSS) - Reserve Trg hours [Merged]
« Reply #34 on: October 24, 2011, 14:14:16 »
For clarity, I was just spelling out the acronym in response to a question. I have no particular dog in this fight.

Offline gcclarke

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Re: RegF Support Staff (RSS) - Reserve Trg hours [Merged]
« Reply #35 on: October 24, 2011, 14:53:37 »
I heartily disagree with the assessment of CTO as a form of "undocumented short leave". It's instead a re-jigging of the member's wrok schedule such that any days that are scheduled to be a CTO are not considered to be part of the member's working days, defined in the leave manual as:

Quote
Working days means those days within a week on which work is normally scheduled for the member by the member's Commanding Officer.

Treating it as a form of shift work is most appropriate. The leave manual also specifies how Commanding Officers should be scheduling their shift workers, emphasis mine:

Quote
2.8.01 Scheduling
Shift workers may follow a schedule that differs from a Monday to Friday working week but it is a schedule nonetheless. In scheduling the working days of a shift worker, the CO is responsible for specifically identifying both the working and non-working days so as to ensure that an equivalent amount of time off for weekends and statutory holidays is provided to shift workers as is provided to CF members working a Monday to Friday working week.

Anyhow, I agree that this particular scenario is definitely fishy.
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Online mariomike

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Re: RegF Support Staff (RSS) - Reserve Trg hours [Merged]
« Reply #36 on: October 25, 2011, 10:16:46 »
That is of course taking into account 1 hour for lunch which in the normal world is usually not paid time.

Many workers remain on duty throughout their shift. Shifts are 12 hours for some jobs. They receive a 30 minute paid lunch break.
They call it a "running lunch: "Running Lunch shall not be interpreted as a sit-down lunch, but a lunch to be eaten when conditions permit."

« Last Edit: October 25, 2011, 10:45:52 by mariomike »

Offline Not a Sig Op

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Re: RegF Support Staff (RSS) - Reserve Trg hours [Merged]
« Reply #37 on: October 25, 2011, 10:53:27 »
Aside from a few part time minimum wage jobs, I have yet to have an employer who doesn't pay for a lunch break, of course, 40 hours per week with a paid 1hr break, or 35 with an unpaid break, still works out to the same working hours....
Remember troops, the minimum acceptable standard is still an acceptable standard.

Offline wesleyd

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Re: RegF Support Staff (RSS) - Reserve Trg hours [Merged]
« Reply #38 on: October 25, 2011, 17:56:27 »
Starting to make some headway with this issue. One of the sticking points is that keeps arising is the argument that Class A pers that come in do not get time off there regular job. My argument is that they are compensated by being paid while they are in during their off time. I also raise argument that if they did not get paid how many would eagerly attend the evening events.

Offline wesleyd

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Re: RegF Support Staff (RSS) - Reserve Trg hours [Merged]
« Reply #39 on: October 25, 2011, 17:59:43 »
Not to beat a dead horse here (I've already said what I needed to, which is just to approach the problem with comprehensive staff work), but the OP isn't really working 55 hours a week. Here's how the schedule looks in reality:

M - F: 0800 to 1600 (40 hours)
T & Th: 1900 to 2200 (6 hours)
(I have a feeling the one Saturday a week was a typo - should be one per month. No unit is budgeted that much, and they'll typically drop a training evening in lieu)

Less one-hour lunches every day (-5)
Less a half-hour at the gym every day (if he's taking advantage of it) (-2.5)

In reality, 55 hours a week pretty quickly turns into less than 40 if you approach it the way any civilian employer (even the public service) would. For sure, he's not going to be able to go home over lunch hours and in the three hours between the end of the normal work day and the beginning of the training night; he may even just stay at his desk in that time to clear up some work - but that's not because his bosses are forcing him to. We in the CF have the bad habit of equating "time away from home" with "time at work". There's not a company in the world that would recognize his schedule as 55 hours for the purposes of overtime.

And again, this isn't a vote of support for the decisions of his unit leadership - just a bit of devil's advocacy.
OK how about when you are operational. 24/7 for up to 8 months. Are they going to pay overtime for that?

Offline Snaketnk

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Re: RegF Support Staff (RSS) - Reserve Trg hours [Merged]
« Reply #40 on: October 25, 2011, 18:50:35 »
OK how about when you are operational. 24/7 for up to 8 months. Are they going to pay overtime for that?

I don't care what the regs are, this is a silly argument. On tour you're doing work that's usually vitally important (in a small or a big way) to the mission at hand and indirectly the lives of Canadians. To equate THAT with sitting in an office at a reserve unit with no work to do "just because" is rubbish.

I'm firmly of the belief that you show up, do the work that needs to be done and be present for the things you need to be present and then GO HOME. But I'm a Cpl.

EDIT: I seem to have mis-interpreted the intent of that message, I didn't fully register who the author was. My apologies.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2011, 19:00:57 by Snaketnk »
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Re: RegF Support Staff (RSS) - Reserve Trg hours [Merged]
« Reply #41 on: October 25, 2011, 22:43:46 »
Aside from a few part time minimum wage jobs, I have yet to have an employer who doesn't pay for a lunch break, of course, 40 hours per week with a paid 1hr break, or 35 with an unpaid break, still works out to the same working hours....

I worked for a corporation with 53,000 employees. "Inside" ( office ) workers were paid 35 hours per week, with a one hour unpaid "out of service" lunch every eight hours.

I was classified as an "outside" worker and therefore paid 40 hours per week, with a paid 30 minute "running" lunch
( between the 4th and 7.5 hours ) every twelve hour shift. *
* Edit to add ( Late / interrupted / missed meal breaks have always been typical for the job. However, there is now a negotiated practice of meal purchase allowances and overtime payments / penalties. )

Same employer, but different lunch policies for the inside versus outside workers.
 
« Last Edit: October 26, 2011, 18:51:34 by mariomike »

Offline Monsoon

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Re: RegF Support Staff (RSS) - Reserve Trg hours [Merged]
« Reply #42 on: October 25, 2011, 23:19:45 »
OK how about when you are operational. 24/7 for up to 8 months. Are they going to pay overtime for that?
All compensated through the extraordinarily generous pay, benefits, and vacation package that we enjoy throughout our entire careers whether deployed or not, and further compensated by tax-free status, hardship allowances, etc while on deployment (and, of course, the privilege to serve). It is not, however, compensated with an unspoken understanding that people won't ask us to put in a full week when posted ashore or to a ship alongside (which will, of course, represent the overwhelming majority of most people's careers). Not to diminish the legitimacy of your current concern, hard work when deployed elsewhere doesn't count towards an on-going, low-level vacation the rest of the time.

Offline Journeyman

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Re: RegF Support Staff (RSS) - Reserve Trg hours [Merged]
« Reply #43 on: October 26, 2011, 01:19:26 »
All compensated through the extraordinarily generous pay, benefits, and vacation package that we enjoy throughout our entire careers whether deployed or not, and further compensated by tax-free status, hardship allowances, etc while on deployment (and, of course, the privilege to serve). It is not, however, compensated with an unspoken understanding that people won't ask us to put in a full week when posted ashore or to a ship alongside (which will, of course, represent the overwhelming majority of most people's careers). Not to diminish the legitimacy of your current concern, hard work when deployed elsewhere doesn't count towards an on-going, low-level vacation the rest of the time.
:goodpost:

But you did say that you were going to bow out because 'common sense' wasn't a factor.......  ;)

Offline Chief Stoker

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Re: RegF Support Staff (RSS) - Reserve Trg hours [Merged]
« Reply #44 on: October 26, 2011, 06:03:56 »
The RSS staff at most of the NAVRES units are intergal to the running of the unit. I do believe the OP is a stoker and part of his duties are usually the building mgr. Quite a few units like the building mgr around when the building is actually open for example training nights.
As well most NAVRES units do not have a lot of senior people there in the engineering department and often look to the expertise of the reg force stoker there again during training nights. How about volunteering to come in on training nights and actually mentor the young MESO's there? This way it might be more palatable to your COC to allow you time off.
From what I can see you are are posted to a unit where the COC relies of their regular force personnel and expects max participation.
If I can give any advice to you is still work the CTO angle, don't burn your bridges and if that doesn't work do your 3 years and get posted back to the coast.
"When your draught exceeds your depth, you are most assuredly aground"

All opinions stated are not official policy of the CF and of a private individual

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Offline FormerHorseGuard

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Re: RegF Support Staff (RSS) - Reserve Trg hours [Merged]
« Reply #45 on: October 26, 2011, 09:16:41 »
I have been out a very  long time and was a full time reservist for over 5 years and have worked in the Reg Force world and the Res Force world during my  various call outs.
At the Army HQ there was no CTO or any  time off given in my section to equal out the time we spent doing the Res Parade nights at the HQ, it was Thursday  night from 1900 till 2230 every  week and one weekend a month. Other sections were given CTO or time off to do admin, my  section was not given any, it was up the section commander to decide if CTO was given ( I worked in a section where I was the only  person who did my  trade and was told it was part of the job, deal  with or I would be replaced. My  opinion was of that  I was a FIN clk in ADM clk world and did not know what  I did, thought I was Adm clerk who did not do typing or other Adm work, but they  could nto do a travel claim if they  tried).
When I was tasked to work at the Res Regiment, I was told my  work day started at  0700 for PT Tuesday to Friday  till 1600
On parade nights I was expected in my  office for 1900 till 2200 ( usually had to do some paper work and set up the sign in location so I started at 1830 )two times a week, Tuesdays and Fridays, plus training weekends, at least one a month. To make up for this extra time I was given Mondays off, which was great since I lived in barracks, I had full use of both washers and dryers during the day , could get all my  kit cleaned and ready  for the week coming.  I ended up working more weekends as the COs driver but he made up the extra time by  giving me short leave , or telling me to fill out a leave pass but it would only  count if I was hurt or something else came out.  When I came back off this unoffical leave the pass would be tossed and  the days off would be forgotten about as if they  never took place.
I have worked in both worlds and the Mondays off each week were great but not every  CO would be as willing to do that.

Offline Pusser

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Re: RegF Support Staff (RSS) - Reserve Trg hours [Merged]
« Reply #46 on: October 26, 2011, 13:26:32 »
All compensated through the extraordinarily generous pay, benefits, and vacation package that we enjoy throughout our entire careers whether deployed or not, and further compensated by tax-free status, hardship allowances, etc while on deployment (and, of course, the privilege to serve). It is not, however, compensated with an unspoken understanding that people won't ask us to put in a full week when posted ashore or to a ship alongside (which will, of course, represent the overwhelming majority of most people's careers). Not to diminish the legitimacy of your current concern, hard work when deployed elsewhere doesn't count towards an on-going, low-level vacation the rest of the time.

The OP is not in any way asking for additional time off or an easy ride.  His beef is that he feels he is being asked to do more than his fair share and I agree with him.  It's perfectly OK to expect him to be at the unit on training nights and on training weekends, but at the same time, he should be allowed to not report for duty until noon on those weekdays that he has to stay on for the evenings.  He should also be allowed days off during the week to account for lost weekends.  The only thing unreasonable about this request is its denial.

On the pay issue, I will concede that it is generous, but it is by no means extraordinary.  Furthermore, very little time at sea is ever compensated with a tax-free allowance.  The tax-free allowances only apply to a limited number of operations.  Sailors can spend years at sea drawing only Sea Duty Allowance, which is fully taxable.  In all of my approximately 738 days at sea, not one of them was tax-free.
Sure, apes read Nietzsche.  They just don't understand it.

Offline Chief Stoker

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Re: RegF Support Staff (RSS) - Reserve Trg hours [Merged]
« Reply #47 on: October 26, 2011, 13:38:03 »
The OP is not in any way asking for additional time off or an easy ride.  His beef is that he feels he is being asked to do more than his fair share and I agree with him.  It's perfectly OK to expect him to be at the unit on training nights and on training weekends, but at the same time, he should be allowed to not report for duty until noon on those weekdays that he has to stay on for the evenings.  He should also be allowed days off during the week to account for lost weekends.  The only thing unreasonable about this request is its denial.


Sometimes you don't get extra time off. In my trade we often have to work late while everyone has gone home and have to work in foregin port when some piece of gear breaks down. Its the nature of the trade. A lot of times we don't get compensated, its nice when we do but its not expected.
I sympathize with the OP that its not fair and he maybe won't be able to get this changed. If he feels that strongly call the CM and see if the posting can be changed, I'm sure he will have lots of volunteers.
"When your draught exceeds your depth, you are most assuredly aground"

All opinions stated are not official policy of the CF and of a private individual

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Offline Pusser

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Re: RegF Support Staff (RSS) - Reserve Trg hours [Merged]
« Reply #48 on: October 26, 2011, 14:16:25 »
Sometimes you don't get extra time off. In my trade we often have to work late while everyone has gone home and have to work in foregin port when some piece of gear breaks down. Its the nature of the trade. A lot of times we don't get compensated, its nice when we do but its not expected.
I sympathize with the OP that its not fair and he maybe won't be able to get this changed. If he feels that strongly call the CM and see if the posting can be changed, I'm sure he will have lots of volunteers.

There's a difference between working extra time in order to meet an operational requirement and working(?) extra time because someone feels it necessary to be present (vice doing anything constructive).
Sure, apes read Nietzsche.  They just don't understand it.

Offline Bruce Monkhouse

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Re: RegF Support Staff (RSS) - Reserve Trg hours [Merged]
« Reply #49 on: October 26, 2011, 14:18:46 »
Pusser, obviously we have lots of folk who aren't smart enough to make that distinction.................
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