Author Topic: The End of the MCDVs  (Read 217959 times)

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Offline TwoTonShackle

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Re: The End of the MCDVs
« Reply #25 on: August 12, 2013, 13:35:31 »
Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't they test-fly ScanEagles off MCDVs?  Or was it just the CPFs?

Yes, they successfully tested the Scan Eagle set up off the GLACE BAY in fall of 2009.

Offline Humphrey Bogart

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Re: The End of the MCDVs
« Reply #26 on: August 12, 2013, 14:07:15 »
Yes! And anti-submarine can be done with mission module.  Also, have some kind of UAV as was previously mentioned. There are some patrol boats with harpoon missles, the point being, can still be capable with teeth, even if small.

So what your saying is the name for these new ships needs to be the Honey Badger Class


Offline dapaterson

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Re: The End of the MCDVs
« Reply #27 on: August 12, 2013, 14:09:24 »
But how do you translate that into French?
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Offline Colin P

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Re: The End of the MCDVs
« Reply #28 on: August 12, 2013, 14:12:43 »
With the continuing involvement of AUV's, I expect to see small vessels like this becoming effective mine and sub hunters, literally being a "depot ship" for a fleet of AUV's, similar to the flying boat depots ships of old. I can see slow moving AUV's that have various sound signatures uploaded into them, they swim slowly listening for those signatures or similar ones and then they signal the ship with locations, bearings , tracks.

As for speed, you give up a lot to get speed in a small ship. A smaller ship that has the endurance and the seakeeping to stay on station is also valuable and sometimes more important than the fast missile boat stuck in the harbour because of the seastate.

 

Offline cupper

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Re: The End of the MCDVs
« Reply #29 on: August 12, 2013, 19:58:56 »
But how do you translate that into French?

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Offline Good2Golf

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Re: The End of the MCDVs
« Reply #30 on: August 12, 2013, 22:11:29 »
The Gate vessels were 24 years old when I joined. We were told that they would be replaced within five years to 6 years.

I ended up as last captain on two of them - 24 years later.

Just saying!

...and Sea Kings were only 21 when I joined...replacements "just around the corner!"  :nod:

When the head winds turn in a few years' time, the MCDVs may yet see a gently following sea...OGBD, you and I have seen enough to know we shouldn't count the young gals out yet...  ;)

Regards
G2G

Offline E.R. Campbell

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Re: The End of the MCDVs
« Reply #31 on: August 27, 2013, 13:34:19 »
Colin, I'm with you on the MCDVs crossing the Pacific, but it would be no trouble for the AOPS: The damn things are bigger than the IRO's or HAL's, not to mention bigger than the contemplated CSC's and with greater unrefuelled range than any of these ships. Moreover, they are supposed to be designed to operate in  the Grand-Banks in winter so, no problem with bad weather either.
That's a fantastic observation. I wonder what it means for the cost of operation, and what tasks they will be assigned. The navy is used to operating with high-cost 5000-ton frigates and low-cost 1000-ton MCDV. The 6000-ton AOPS will certainly not be cheap to operate.


Doesn't that further argue for retaining and upgrading the cheap, sturdy little MCDVs until they can be replaced by a few cheap, sturdy corvettes?
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Offline Oldgateboatdriver

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Re: The End of the MCDVs
« Reply #32 on: August 27, 2013, 14:23:44 »
Absolutely!

Offline MarkOttawa

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Re: The End of the MCDVs
« Reply #33 on: August 27, 2013, 14:33:06 »
Does one want to send a ship with "a maximum speed of at least 17 knots" if any possible serious action is envisaged?
http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/business-equipment/arctic-offshore-patrol-ships.page

A ship of this type?

Quote
...
AOPS will not be a complex combatant. It will be armed and equipped for a constabulary role in support of other government departments...
http://vanguardcanada.com/preparing-for-a-unique-maritime-theatre/

What OGDs to support in Asiatic waters?  And this sort of gun?

Quote
For the AOPS, the navy is considering a 25mm gun forward says the Admiral, “but they are constabulary vessels not a combatant. They will be built to commercial standards and aimed at providing Canada with an arctic surveillance offshore sovereignty capability and also to be there for search and rescue, to enable other lead departments in their maritime mandates, whether it is RCMP, Coast Guard, Fisheries and Oceans, or CBSA.”..
http://www.frontline-canada.com/Defence/index_archives.php?page=1784

Mark
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Offline E.R. Campbell

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Re: The End of the MCDVs
« Reply #34 on: August 27, 2013, 15:26:00 »
Does one want to send a ship with "a maximum speed of at least 17 knots" if any possible serious action is envisaged?
http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/business-equipment/arctic-offshore-patrol-ships.page

A ship of this type?

What OGDs to support in Asiatic waters?  And this sort of gun?

Mark
Ottawa


All well and good, Mark, and someone thinks there is an important role for them ... even if it is just to keep some yards active while we get our warship act together.

I, a rank outsider, am attracted to the big (5,000 ton), large crew, expensive major combatant vs the small (1,000 ton), small crew, cheap small combatant argument. Leave the AOPV out of the equation, completely and say, in the future, let's have a half dozen of them PLUS:

     1. n (a number equal to or greater than 10) major combatants;

         

     2. n1 (a number between six and 10) small combatants.

         

    3. An appropriate number of AORs, submarines and small support vessels like research ships and diving tenders.
It is ill that men should kill one another in seditions, tumults and wars; but it is worse to bring nations to such misery, weakness and baseness
as to have neither strength nor courage to contend for anything; to have nothing left worth defending and to give the name of peace to desolation.
Algernon Sidney in Discourses Concerning Government, (1698)
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Offline Monsoon

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Re: The End of the MCDVs
« Reply #35 on: August 27, 2013, 15:50:13 »
Does one want to send a ship with "a maximum speed of at least 17 knots" if any possible serious action is envisaged?
This one (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flower-class_corvette) seemed to do alright, at a time when the max speed of heavy combatants was considerably higher than today's, and when the nature of surface warfare depended to a greater degree than it does today on "legs". It's all a matter of role.

Offline AlexanderM

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Offline Chris Pook

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Re: The End of the MCDVs
« Reply #37 on: August 27, 2013, 16:07:34 »


21 knots, 54 Crew and a deck big enough for a Sea King / Cormorant / Cyclone (with hangar).  5000 nm @ 15 kts.

Big, rangy boat with a small crew.  And cheap.

Link
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Offline AlexanderM

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Re: The End of the MCDVs
« Reply #38 on: August 27, 2013, 16:12:40 »
This is close to what I expect we'll end up with, but too slow.

http://www.casr.ca/id-danish-naval-projects-rasmussen.htm

Offline Colin P

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Re: The End of the MCDVs
« Reply #39 on: August 27, 2013, 17:40:35 »
Interesting design. Speed is a tough thing and generally more speed mean less of something else. I note the below video did not show how it performs in any form of sea state.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rr-OnjzRS3E


Offline Chris Pook

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Re: The End of the MCDVs
« Reply #40 on: August 27, 2013, 17:49:16 »
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bC2XIGMI2kM

Rasmussen taking a Lynx onboard in weather.
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Offline AlexanderM

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Re: The End of the MCDVs
« Reply #41 on: August 27, 2013, 18:07:05 »
Needs better stabilizers?  Pretty bad roll.

Offline Chris Pook

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Re: The End of the MCDVs
« Reply #42 on: August 27, 2013, 18:29:23 »
Pretty small ship.
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Offline AlexanderM

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Re: The End of the MCDVs
« Reply #43 on: August 27, 2013, 18:48:14 »
Doesn't matter, there are stabilizers available that can do the job.

Offline MarkOttawa

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Re: The End of the MCDVs
« Reply #44 on: August 27, 2013, 19:22:10 »
More on Hollands, nice images:
http://www.navyrecognition.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1205

Damen design used for new CCG mid-shore patrol vessels:

Quote
...
The Mid-Shore Patrol Vessel is based on Damen’s Stan Patrol 4207 design...
http://www.ccg-gcc.gc.ca/Vessel-Procurement/Mid-Shore-Patrol-Vessel

Mark
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Offline AlexanderM

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Re: The End of the MCDVs
« Reply #45 on: August 27, 2013, 19:37:26 »
They look like they'd be pretty stable.

Offline Underway

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Re: The End of the MCDVs
« Reply #46 on: August 27, 2013, 22:10:35 »
Does one want to send a ship with "a maximum speed of at least 17 knots" if any possible serious action is envisaged?

If serious action is required the AOPS is not going to be sent.  AOPS if you look at their design and the requirements from the government are going to be the ultimate "taxi cab" for OGD's and other CAF elements.  I say "taxi" because it won't be a lot of storage.

It will be able to take 40 extra pers, it will have a landing craft, it will have an enclosed boarding party boat, it will have a crane that can pick up a Bv206 from the ice a distance from the ship, and it will be able to store trucks, snowmobiles and land a helo.

For sensors aside from surface search radar there will be some sort of EO-IR sensor that can pan independent to the gun.

Its going to drop off or pick up ranger patrols, arctic platoon sized operations, and act as a mobile helo refueling pad for arctic borne helos.  For the Offshore part they will embark fisheries or RCMP and use their RHIB to send out boarding parties.  With sister ships they could drop of a company and provide logistical/ communications support.  There are lots of very interesting options for these vessels that don't involve just offshore patrol.

If the MCDV's can do fishpats, RMP, SAR zone time and OP CARIBBE ops effectively enough with a max speed of 15kts and a cruise of 8-10kts then the AOPS with their EO-IR, ability to launch/ land a helo/scan eagle and 14kts cruise will be just fine.  When the big guns are needed then they task the frigates.

I really think the AOPS is looking a bit like an ice capable Black Swan concept, without the heavy shooting packages.  Similar speed, higher tonnage (due to ice breaking), and similar storage capacity for OGD's.  MCM packages can be added as they are already modular on the MCDV's.

Offline AlexanderM

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Re: The End of the MCDVs
« Reply #47 on: August 27, 2013, 22:49:24 »
Aren't we talking about the patrol boats?  And it's not an issue, if something goes down they won't be sent.  It's an issue, if something goes down and they're already in the middle of it.  Such as, they have to catch smugglers in a fast boat, or they detect a foreign sub in our waters, then what capabilities do they have.

Offline MarkOttawa

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Re: The End of the MCDVs
« Reply #48 on: August 27, 2013, 23:08:26 »
More on the "Black Swan":

Quote
What Type of Ships Does the RN Need?
http://www.cdfai.org/the3dsblog/?p=1609

Mark
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Offline Colin P

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Re: The End of the MCDVs
« Reply #49 on: August 28, 2013, 10:37:03 »
More on Hollands, nice images:
http://www.navyrecognition.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1205

Damen design used for new CCG mid-shore patrol vessels:

Mark
Ottawa

The Mid-shore boats remind me of the R-class should have been. I served on the Ready and Racer.