Author Topic: "Toronto police officer charged in Sammy Yatim shooting"  (Read 50606 times)

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Offline 2ndChoiceName

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"Toronto police officer charged in Sammy Yatim shooting"
« on: August 19, 2013, 21:07:09 »
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A Toronto police officer is slated to surrender himself into SIU custody Tuesday morning after he was charged with second-degree murder in the shooting death of Sammy Yatim on a Toronto streetcar in July.

Constable James Forcillo will appear before a justice of the peace at Old City Hall on Tuesday, August 20, according to an SIU press release issued early Monday afternoon. His lawyer, Peter Brauti, said the initial appearance will begin at 9 a.m. and that a bail hearing will then be scheduled for some time in the future, though he hopes it will take place “as soon as possible.”

More at link: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/toronto/ontario-police-watchdog-lays-second-degree-murder-charge-in-sammy-yatim-shooting/article13837354/

Offline pbi

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Re: "Toronto police officer charged in Sammy Yatim shooting"
« Reply #1 on: August 28, 2013, 12:37:00 »
While I strongly believe that PC Forcillo must be held accountable for what he is alleged to have done, something I find alarming is the depth of anti-police feeling this case has stirred up in the blogosphere (and to an extent, in other media forums as well). This ranges from barely articulate mouth-breathers posting incoherent rants, to others who seem to have a kindergarten-level understanding of our legal system, to people expressing more reasonable concerns and questions about police training, protocols and attitudes.

Taken together, it seems that a fair number of people have serious, if somewhat misinformed, concerns about the police and our judicial system., and the Yatim case has brought them to the forefront.

I was brought up to respect and trust the police. While I believe that police must be held to a very high standard, and punishment of police offenders should serve an exemplary purpose, I still think that the majority of them do their jobs well, and rarely draw their weapons (and even more rarely ever shoot anybody, ever).

How did we get here?
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Offline BeyondTheNow

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Re: "Toronto police officer charged in Sammy Yatim shooting"
« Reply #2 on: August 28, 2013, 13:29:32 »
...

I'm interested to see what the final outcome will be of proposed changes to the Use of Force Continuum there's increased talk of amending now. (Assuming changes take place.) Yes, there are complaints (some justified, some not) and there are definitely those (not referring specifically to police officers, but to any persons in a law-enforcement related field) who have exercised poor judgement and acted against its outline. But overall it seems to have worked well and achieved its purpose since its inception, although I understand the need to examine it, I suppose. (All options need to be thoroughly reviewed in order to allow the performance of duties in the safest and most efficient way possible for all, in order to appease certain persons.) A positive aspect, IMO, to come out of this is talk of increased training for officers, which some seem to be in favor of.


Edit: content
« Last Edit: August 28, 2013, 14:19:29 by BeyondTheNow »
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Offline Hamish Seggie

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Re: "Toronto police officer charged in Sammy Yatim shooting"
« Reply #3 on: August 28, 2013, 14:02:36 »
While I strongly believe that PC Forcillo must be held accountable for what he is alleged to have done, something I find alarming is the depth of anti-police feeling this case has stirred up in the blogosphere (and to an extent, in other media forums as well). This ranges from barely articulate mouth-breathers posting incoherent rants, to others who seem to have a kindergarten-level understanding of our legal system, to people expressing more reasonable concerns and questions about police training, protocols and attitudes.

Taken together, it seems that a fair number of people have serious, if somewhat misinformed, concerns about the police and our judicial system., and the Yatim case has brought them to the forefront.

I was brought up to respect and trust the police. While I believe that police must be held to a very high standard, and punishment of police offenders should serve an exemplary purpose, I still think that the majority of them do their jobs well, and rarely draw their weapons (and even more rarely ever shoot anybody, ever).

How did we get here?

It's simple:

Too many people telling us we can eat all the cake we want with no consequences. Those who said we need vegetables were pooh poohed.

Rights have to be balanced with responsibilities and anyone that said that were shouted down.
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Online GAP

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Re: "Toronto police officer charged in Sammy Yatim shooting"
« Reply #4 on: August 28, 2013, 14:07:46 »
I am getting a little tired of every facet of society figuring them and their illiterate kids should be entitled to fact finding missions, broad reviews of police procedures, etc. everytime one of them starts shooting things, waving knives, whatever....

You know the law....I don't care if your daddy/mommy/pet goldfish didn't love you....don't break the law...
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Offline Inquisitor

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Re: "Toronto police officer charged in Sammy Yatim shooting"
« Reply #5 on: August 28, 2013, 14:35:55 »
Actually Toronto Police have advanced a great deal over the years in this area.

I speak as someone who has a condition that has on a couple of occasions that were litterally psychotic, when I was off meds.

Why, too string doses and our side effects including for example incidents of epileptic seizures that seemed worse that the meds.

That said most people in this type of condition are aware enough to be afraid when police show up, They are aware that they have done something wrong.

Both sides needs to be better educated, my initial treatment should have included some education in what sorts of behaviour could potentially trigger use of lethal force from the police.

On the more positive side, police training has gotten better in how to respond to a irrational person.

There is a Toronto unit called Medical Crisis Intervention Team??? that consists of Constables plus Psychiatric nurses to respond to this situation. For whatever reason it was not available.

Its too bad how this worked out, everyone wishes that it had worked out better.

Sammy provoked the police response. 9 rounds seem excessive, that said I wouldn't have wanted to be Forcillo or any of those constable at that moment.

2'nd degree murder??? seems excessive, I feel he'll get off. If that happens there will be another media circus. Manslaughter seems more suitable.

Lets hope the findings lessen the chance of this happening again.

GAP just saw your post: Goes back to my point about better educating the potentially inflicted. At one point I wasn't a that having a knife can allow that type of response.  The way I understand it the person confronted doesn't even have to be armed. If the police perceive that there is potential for injury to themselves or others they have that option.


Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: "Toronto police officer charged in Sammy Yatim shooting"
« Reply #6 on: August 28, 2013, 15:25:19 »
I'm surprised at how many people seem to completely overlook the fact that this poor poor misunderstood child pulled a ******* knife on a woman on a crowded street car while making very obvious sexual gestures. Some reports even say he tried to keep passengers on the streetcar.

It does seem to (uninformed me) like excessive force but wow talk about an orgy of anti police trash talk.

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Offline BeyondTheNow

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Re: "Toronto police officer charged in Sammy Yatim shooting"
« Reply #7 on: August 28, 2013, 16:13:14 »
In reading some of the other replies, I just want to make sure I'm not being misunderstood with my own post.

I am an advocate for policing and the job they perform every day. I had worked in/been readily exposed to the police/law-enforcement field for over ten years and had been involved in escalated situations involving weapons (including firearms) physical assaults, combative mentally-ill persons, arrests, needing to exercise DT, etc.

I don't think I articulated well that the heightened attention surrounding this particular incident is surprising to me--not necessarily the incident itself, but the volume of other issues being raised after the fact. And as pbi stated, there seems to be quite a lot of people voicing opinions about an industry that they've never had direct exposure to, other than tuning in when something goes awry. That's why I'm interested in seeing the end result, if any, about the talk of 'use of force' amendments that I don't feel are needed--our current layout has seemed sufficient for a number of years, minus an extremely low percentage of errors.

My apologies if I was offensive toward other readers or that I had cast judgement, because I certainly didn't intend to come off that way.




Edit: typo/clarification
« Last Edit: August 29, 2013, 13:18:14 by BeyondTheNow »
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Offline Kat Stevens

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Re: "Toronto police officer charged in Sammy Yatim shooting"
« Reply #8 on: August 28, 2013, 17:26:02 »
I am getting a little tired of every facet of society figuring them and their illiterate kids should be entitled to fact finding missions, broad reviews of police procedures, etc. everytime one of them starts shooting things, waving knives, whatever....

You know the law....I don't care if your daddy/mommy/pet goldfish didn't love you....don't break the law...

Hey, I'm all for two in the centre of visible mass when all else fails, but this goober was alone on the trolley surrounded by LEOs with a knife, were 9 rounds really necessary?  If said goober were my son, I would have been more than happy to let several heavy callsigns tune him up with a baton or five.  People don't get wound up over cops doing their jobs for the most part, they get wound up by them OVERdoing their jobs, and getting caught on tape, or whatever, doing it.  I wasn't there, so I can't say what went down, but it sure don't LOOK good.  As for the police being my friend?  No, no they're not.  They're a guy given the job of maintaining order, and given a pretty large scope of powers to achieve that job.  Just like soldiers, cops are a microcosm of society, and it's not inconceivable to think one or two of them may enjoy their job just a tiny bit too much, and this is not an anti LEO post, so climb down off the white charger before you kick the spurs in and charge.
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Offline Bruce Monkhouse

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Re: "Toronto police officer charged in Sammy Yatim shooting"
« Reply #9 on: August 28, 2013, 18:25:36 »
Hey,...I'm as pro-police as a human can be, and I sure hope that there was something going on that we haven't seen yet on the other side of the streetcar, because from the only video we've seen I'm with Kat.

Just one thing,.....................one round or nine rounds...........not part of this story. IMO. 
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Offline JesseWZ

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Re: "Toronto police officer charged in Sammy Yatim shooting"
« Reply #10 on: August 28, 2013, 18:54:59 »
Hey,...I'm as pro-police as a human can be, and I sure hope that there was something going on that we haven't seen yet on the other side of the streetcar, because from the only video we've seen I'm with Kat.

Just one thing,.....................one round or nine rounds...........not part of this story. IMO.

Edited*

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Re: "Toronto police officer charged in Sammy Yatim shooting"
« Reply #11 on: August 28, 2013, 19:16:08 »
Kat I agree entirely with your comments....I am just sick of the instant whine everytime the police respond forcefully.....right or wrong, like it has been said, it will come out in the wash
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Offline Brihard

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Re: "Toronto police officer charged in Sammy Yatim shooting"
« Reply #12 on: August 28, 2013, 19:20:01 »
Hey,...I'm as pro-police as a human can be, and I sure hope that there was something going on that we haven't seen yet on the other side of the streetcar, because from the only video we've seen I'm with Kat.

Just one thing,.....................one round or nine rounds...........not part of this story. IMO.

Slight disagreement on this... My issue isn't the specific round count, but rather the two very distinct target engagements. I view the three and the six rounds are being necessary to separately justify. There was ample time for "did I hit/did it work?" between them, and those questions will be at the core of this. What will be looked very closely at is how the officer perceived the subject as a threat of grievous bodily harm or death after those first three shots and the target appeared to drop, and what was the officer's intent if he is unable to articulate that those three shots did not stop the immediate threat?

I'm fighting very, very hard to reserve judgment because I wasn't there and cannot experience the situation through the eyes of the officer. I just know that from the outside looking in, it's ugly.
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Re: "Toronto police officer charged in Sammy Yatim shooting"
« Reply #13 on: August 28, 2013, 19:22:48 »
You are accountable for any force you use and if it's deemed unreasonable or excessive you will face the consequences.  I trust the system to come to a just decision bearing in mind all the relevant facts.  My sympathies go to both families and the Cst. as they're all irrevocably changed by this tragedy.   May some good come out of it at the end of the day.

Offline Nemo888

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Re: "Toronto police officer charged in Sammy Yatim shooting"
« Reply #14 on: August 28, 2013, 20:52:42 »
It certainly looks like manslaughter from the video. Police are only police as long as they have credibility with the public. In many places in the USA they feel like an occupying force and are terrified of citizens. I really don't want that coming up here. He needs to be made an example.

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Re: "Toronto police officer charged in Sammy Yatim shooting"
« Reply #15 on: August 28, 2013, 21:09:07 »
It certainly looks like manslaughter from the video. Police are only police as long as they have credibility with the public. In many places in the USA they feel like an occupying force and are terrified of citizens. I really don't want that coming up here. He needs to be made an example.

And I think this is where someone, in this case me, points out that the police officer in question is innocent until proven guilty despite what you think it looks like on that poor quality video.
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Offline WR

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Re: "Toronto police officer charged in Sammy Yatim shooting"
« Reply #16 on: August 28, 2013, 22:09:39 »
It certainly looks like manslaughter from the video. Police are only police as long as they have credibility with the public. In many places in the USA they feel like an occupying force and are terrified of citizens. I really don't want that coming up here. He needs to be made an example.

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Re: "Toronto police officer charged in Sammy Yatim shooting"
« Reply #17 on: August 28, 2013, 22:12:58 »
I have you on ignore for a reason, but like a car accident I can't help myself from looking and I always regret it.

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Offline Hamish Seggie

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Re: "Toronto police officer charged in Sammy Yatim shooting"
« Reply #18 on: August 28, 2013, 23:30:29 »
It certainly looks like manslaughter from the video. Police are only police as long as they have credibility with the public. In many places in the USA they feel like an occupying force and are terrified of citizens. I really don't want that coming up here. He needs to be made an example.

Innocent til proven guilty. Remember that. That is a basic tenet of our Charter.
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Offline Inquisitor

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Re: "Toronto police officer charged in Sammy Yatim shooting"
« Reply #19 on: August 28, 2013, 23:34:54 »
To add to my last post - I mentioned the MCIT Team, Sammy reportedly asked for them to attend. As I noted earlier they were not available.

That to me seems to indicate that he knew he had crossed the line, and was asking for help.

I believe the LEO's are trained to, and preferred response in situations like this is to contain, and if possible deescalate.

I am not taking sides. I empathize with empathize with the LEO side and sympathize with the family.

I truly do not mean to aggravate,  Most  with LEO experience  know that those they confront are rarely utterly irrational.

Trying to finish with a positive comment.  I note again that Sammy provoked the response. I've walked some mile in his shoes, and can truthfully state that to be mentally incapable is the cruelest fate I can imagine. 

The system has been improving, Toronto Police are amongst the best in the world in dealing with this type of situation.

Offline Nemo888

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Re: "Toronto police officer charged in Sammy Yatim shooting"
« Reply #20 on: August 28, 2013, 23:38:46 »
Where do police derive their authority? Largely from their integrity. If that becomes questionable just look to the third world or even some inner cites in the US. He needs to be publicly punished for the good of the force. Crimes need to be reported and people have to want to call the police when crimes happen. Without public confidence effective policing becomes impossible. I am sorry he has to be thrown under the bus, but he will be.

Offline Hamish Seggie

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Re: "Toronto police officer charged in Sammy Yatim shooting"
« Reply #21 on: August 28, 2013, 23:48:31 »
Where do police derive their authority? Largely from their integrity. If that becomes questionable just look to the third world or even some inner cites in the US. He needs to be publicly punished for the good of the force. Crimes need to be reported and people have to want to call the police when crimes happen. Without public confidence effective policing becomes impossible. I am sorry he has to be thrown under the bus, but he will be.

Does a moderator have to spell this out for you? He has been charged but not tried nor found guilty.

I find your comment to be insensitive.
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Offline Nemo888

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Re: "Toronto police officer charged in Sammy Yatim shooting"
« Reply #22 on: August 29, 2013, 00:03:50 »
In this case it doesn't really matter. The force is more important than one man. They need to get some good optics on this. It must look like the officer is punished as most of the public have already judged him. No commission or investigative report can make up for it this time. It's a video. Throw him a bone with a good private sector job and a generous payout. Even a pension on a psych eval. Policing Toronto is already a nightmare.

Offline WR

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Re: "Toronto police officer charged in Sammy Yatim shooting"
« Reply #23 on: August 29, 2013, 00:05:38 »
In this case it doesn't really matter. The force is more important than one man. They need to get some good optics on this. It must look like the officer is punished as most of the public have already judged him. No commission or investigative report can make up for it this time. It's a video. Throw him a bone with a good private sector job and a generous payout. Even a pension on a psych eval. Policing Toronto is already a nightmare.
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Offline Bruce Monkhouse

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Re: "Toronto police officer charged in Sammy Yatim shooting"
« Reply #24 on: August 29, 2013, 00:10:46 »
In this case it doesn't really matter. The force is more important than one man. They need to get some good optics on this. It must look like the officer is punished as most of the public have already judged him. No commission or investigative report can make up for it this time. It's a video. Throw him a bone with a good private sector job and a generous payout. Even a pension on a psych eval. Policing Toronto is already a nightmare.

You're the one in need of a psych evaluation..................I give you a lot of leeway because I truly believe you're troubled but tread lightly because my patience is wearing very, very thin.

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