Author Topic: "Toronto police officer charged in Sammy Yatim shooting"  (Read 51720 times)

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Offline 2ndChoiceName

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"Toronto police officer charged in Sammy Yatim shooting"
« on: August 19, 2013, 21:07:09 »
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A Toronto police officer is slated to surrender himself into SIU custody Tuesday morning after he was charged with second-degree murder in the shooting death of Sammy Yatim on a Toronto streetcar in July.

Constable James Forcillo will appear before a justice of the peace at Old City Hall on Tuesday, August 20, according to an SIU press release issued early Monday afternoon. His lawyer, Peter Brauti, said the initial appearance will begin at 9 a.m. and that a bail hearing will then be scheduled for some time in the future, though he hopes it will take place “as soon as possible.”

More at link: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/toronto/ontario-police-watchdog-lays-second-degree-murder-charge-in-sammy-yatim-shooting/article13837354/

Offline pbi

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Re: "Toronto police officer charged in Sammy Yatim shooting"
« Reply #1 on: August 28, 2013, 12:37:00 »
While I strongly believe that PC Forcillo must be held accountable for what he is alleged to have done, something I find alarming is the depth of anti-police feeling this case has stirred up in the blogosphere (and to an extent, in other media forums as well). This ranges from barely articulate mouth-breathers posting incoherent rants, to others who seem to have a kindergarten-level understanding of our legal system, to people expressing more reasonable concerns and questions about police training, protocols and attitudes.

Taken together, it seems that a fair number of people have serious, if somewhat misinformed, concerns about the police and our judicial system., and the Yatim case has brought them to the forefront.

I was brought up to respect and trust the police. While I believe that police must be held to a very high standard, and punishment of police offenders should serve an exemplary purpose, I still think that the majority of them do their jobs well, and rarely draw their weapons (and even more rarely ever shoot anybody, ever).

How did we get here?
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Offline BeyondTheNow

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Re: "Toronto police officer charged in Sammy Yatim shooting"
« Reply #2 on: August 28, 2013, 13:29:32 »
...

I'm interested to see what the final outcome will be of proposed changes to the Use of Force Continuum there's increased talk of amending now. (Assuming changes take place.) Yes, there are complaints (some justified, some not) and there are definitely those (not referring specifically to police officers, but to any persons in a law-enforcement related field) who have exercised poor judgement and acted against its outline. But overall it seems to have worked well and achieved its purpose since its inception, although I understand the need to examine it, I suppose. (All options need to be thoroughly reviewed in order to allow the performance of duties in the safest and most efficient way possible for all, in order to appease certain persons.) A positive aspect, IMO, to come out of this is talk of increased training for officers, which some seem to be in favor of.


Edit: content
« Last Edit: August 28, 2013, 14:19:29 by BeyondTheNow »
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Offline Hamish Seggie

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Re: "Toronto police officer charged in Sammy Yatim shooting"
« Reply #3 on: August 28, 2013, 14:02:36 »
While I strongly believe that PC Forcillo must be held accountable for what he is alleged to have done, something I find alarming is the depth of anti-police feeling this case has stirred up in the blogosphere (and to an extent, in other media forums as well). This ranges from barely articulate mouth-breathers posting incoherent rants, to others who seem to have a kindergarten-level understanding of our legal system, to people expressing more reasonable concerns and questions about police training, protocols and attitudes.

Taken together, it seems that a fair number of people have serious, if somewhat misinformed, concerns about the police and our judicial system., and the Yatim case has brought them to the forefront.

I was brought up to respect and trust the police. While I believe that police must be held to a very high standard, and punishment of police offenders should serve an exemplary purpose, I still think that the majority of them do their jobs well, and rarely draw their weapons (and even more rarely ever shoot anybody, ever).

How did we get here?

It's simple:

Too many people telling us we can eat all the cake we want with no consequences. Those who said we need vegetables were pooh poohed.

Rights have to be balanced with responsibilities and anyone that said that were shouted down.
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Offline GAP

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Re: "Toronto police officer charged in Sammy Yatim shooting"
« Reply #4 on: August 28, 2013, 14:07:46 »
I am getting a little tired of every facet of society figuring them and their illiterate kids should be entitled to fact finding missions, broad reviews of police procedures, etc. everytime one of them starts shooting things, waving knives, whatever....

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Offline Inquisitor

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Re: "Toronto police officer charged in Sammy Yatim shooting"
« Reply #5 on: August 28, 2013, 14:35:55 »
Actually Toronto Police have advanced a great deal over the years in this area.

I speak as someone who has a condition that has on a couple of occasions that were litterally psychotic, when I was off meds.

Why, too string doses and our side effects including for example incidents of epileptic seizures that seemed worse that the meds.

That said most people in this type of condition are aware enough to be afraid when police show up, They are aware that they have done something wrong.

Both sides needs to be better educated, my initial treatment should have included some education in what sorts of behaviour could potentially trigger use of lethal force from the police.

On the more positive side, police training has gotten better in how to respond to a irrational person.

There is a Toronto unit called Medical Crisis Intervention Team??? that consists of Constables plus Psychiatric nurses to respond to this situation. For whatever reason it was not available.

Its too bad how this worked out, everyone wishes that it had worked out better.

Sammy provoked the police response. 9 rounds seem excessive, that said I wouldn't have wanted to be Forcillo or any of those constable at that moment.

2'nd degree murder??? seems excessive, I feel he'll get off. If that happens there will be another media circus. Manslaughter seems more suitable.

Lets hope the findings lessen the chance of this happening again.

GAP just saw your post: Goes back to my point about better educating the potentially inflicted. At one point I wasn't a that having a knife can allow that type of response.  The way I understand it the person confronted doesn't even have to be armed. If the police perceive that there is potential for injury to themselves or others they have that option.


Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: "Toronto police officer charged in Sammy Yatim shooting"
« Reply #6 on: August 28, 2013, 15:25:19 »
I'm surprised at how many people seem to completely overlook the fact that this poor poor misunderstood child pulled a ******* knife on a woman on a crowded street car while making very obvious sexual gestures. Some reports even say he tried to keep passengers on the streetcar.

It does seem to (uninformed me) like excessive force but wow talk about an orgy of anti police trash talk.

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Offline BeyondTheNow

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Re: "Toronto police officer charged in Sammy Yatim shooting"
« Reply #7 on: August 28, 2013, 16:13:14 »
In reading some of the other replies, I just want to make sure I'm not being misunderstood with my own post.

I am an advocate for policing and the job they perform every day. I had worked in/been readily exposed to the police/law-enforcement field for over ten years and had been involved in escalated situations involving weapons (including firearms) physical assaults, combative mentally-ill persons, arrests, needing to exercise DT, etc.

I don't think I articulated well that the heightened attention surrounding this particular incident is surprising to me--not necessarily the incident itself, but the volume of other issues being raised after the fact. And as pbi stated, there seems to be quite a lot of people voicing opinions about an industry that they've never had direct exposure to, other than tuning in when something goes awry. That's why I'm interested in seeing the end result, if any, about the talk of 'use of force' amendments that I don't feel are needed--our current layout has seemed sufficient for a number of years, minus an extremely low percentage of errors.

My apologies if I was offensive toward other readers or that I had cast judgement, because I certainly didn't intend to come off that way.




Edit: typo/clarification
« Last Edit: August 29, 2013, 13:18:14 by BeyondTheNow »
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Offline Kat Stevens

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Re: "Toronto police officer charged in Sammy Yatim shooting"
« Reply #8 on: August 28, 2013, 17:26:02 »
I am getting a little tired of every facet of society figuring them and their illiterate kids should be entitled to fact finding missions, broad reviews of police procedures, etc. everytime one of them starts shooting things, waving knives, whatever....

You know the law....I don't care if your daddy/mommy/pet goldfish didn't love you....don't break the law...

Hey, I'm all for two in the centre of visible mass when all else fails, but this goober was alone on the trolley surrounded by LEOs with a knife, were 9 rounds really necessary?  If said goober were my son, I would have been more than happy to let several heavy callsigns tune him up with a baton or five.  People don't get wound up over cops doing their jobs for the most part, they get wound up by them OVERdoing their jobs, and getting caught on tape, or whatever, doing it.  I wasn't there, so I can't say what went down, but it sure don't LOOK good.  As for the police being my friend?  No, no they're not.  They're a guy given the job of maintaining order, and given a pretty large scope of powers to achieve that job.  Just like soldiers, cops are a microcosm of society, and it's not inconceivable to think one or two of them may enjoy their job just a tiny bit too much, and this is not an anti LEO post, so climb down off the white charger before you kick the spurs in and charge.
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Offline Bruce Monkhouse

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Re: "Toronto police officer charged in Sammy Yatim shooting"
« Reply #9 on: August 28, 2013, 18:25:36 »
Hey,...I'm as pro-police as a human can be, and I sure hope that there was something going on that we haven't seen yet on the other side of the streetcar, because from the only video we've seen I'm with Kat.

Just one thing,.....................one round or nine rounds...........not part of this story. IMO. 
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Re: "Toronto police officer charged in Sammy Yatim shooting"
« Reply #10 on: August 28, 2013, 18:54:59 »
Hey,...I'm as pro-police as a human can be, and I sure hope that there was something going on that we haven't seen yet on the other side of the streetcar, because from the only video we've seen I'm with Kat.

Just one thing,.....................one round or nine rounds...........not part of this story. IMO.

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Offline GAP

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Re: "Toronto police officer charged in Sammy Yatim shooting"
« Reply #11 on: August 28, 2013, 19:16:08 »
Kat I agree entirely with your comments....I am just sick of the instant whine everytime the police respond forcefully.....right or wrong, like it has been said, it will come out in the wash
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Offline Brihard

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Re: "Toronto police officer charged in Sammy Yatim shooting"
« Reply #12 on: August 28, 2013, 19:20:01 »
Hey,...I'm as pro-police as a human can be, and I sure hope that there was something going on that we haven't seen yet on the other side of the streetcar, because from the only video we've seen I'm with Kat.

Just one thing,.....................one round or nine rounds...........not part of this story. IMO.

Slight disagreement on this... My issue isn't the specific round count, but rather the two very distinct target engagements. I view the three and the six rounds are being necessary to separately justify. There was ample time for "did I hit/did it work?" between them, and those questions will be at the core of this. What will be looked very closely at is how the officer perceived the subject as a threat of grievous bodily harm or death after those first three shots and the target appeared to drop, and what was the officer's intent if he is unable to articulate that those three shots did not stop the immediate threat?

I'm fighting very, very hard to reserve judgment because I wasn't there and cannot experience the situation through the eyes of the officer. I just know that from the outside looking in, it's ugly.
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Re: "Toronto police officer charged in Sammy Yatim shooting"
« Reply #13 on: August 28, 2013, 19:22:48 »
You are accountable for any force you use and if it's deemed unreasonable or excessive you will face the consequences.  I trust the system to come to a just decision bearing in mind all the relevant facts.  My sympathies go to both families and the Cst. as they're all irrevocably changed by this tragedy.   May some good come out of it at the end of the day.

Offline Nemo888

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Re: "Toronto police officer charged in Sammy Yatim shooting"
« Reply #14 on: August 28, 2013, 20:52:42 »
It certainly looks like manslaughter from the video. Police are only police as long as they have credibility with the public. In many places in the USA they feel like an occupying force and are terrified of citizens. I really don't want that coming up here. He needs to be made an example.

Offline jeffb

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Re: "Toronto police officer charged in Sammy Yatim shooting"
« Reply #15 on: August 28, 2013, 21:09:07 »
It certainly looks like manslaughter from the video. Police are only police as long as they have credibility with the public. In many places in the USA they feel like an occupying force and are terrified of citizens. I really don't want that coming up here. He needs to be made an example.

And I think this is where someone, in this case me, points out that the police officer in question is innocent until proven guilty despite what you think it looks like on that poor quality video.
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Re: "Toronto police officer charged in Sammy Yatim shooting"
« Reply #16 on: August 28, 2013, 22:09:39 »
It certainly looks like manslaughter from the video. Police are only police as long as they have credibility with the public. In many places in the USA they feel like an occupying force and are terrified of citizens. I really don't want that coming up here. He needs to be made an example.

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Re: "Toronto police officer charged in Sammy Yatim shooting"
« Reply #17 on: August 28, 2013, 22:12:58 »
I have you on ignore for a reason, but like a car accident I can't help myself from looking and I always regret it.

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Offline Hamish Seggie

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Re: "Toronto police officer charged in Sammy Yatim shooting"
« Reply #18 on: August 28, 2013, 23:30:29 »
It certainly looks like manslaughter from the video. Police are only police as long as they have credibility with the public. In many places in the USA they feel like an occupying force and are terrified of citizens. I really don't want that coming up here. He needs to be made an example.

Innocent til proven guilty. Remember that. That is a basic tenet of our Charter.
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Offline Inquisitor

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Re: "Toronto police officer charged in Sammy Yatim shooting"
« Reply #19 on: August 28, 2013, 23:34:54 »
To add to my last post - I mentioned the MCIT Team, Sammy reportedly asked for them to attend. As I noted earlier they were not available.

That to me seems to indicate that he knew he had crossed the line, and was asking for help.

I believe the LEO's are trained to, and preferred response in situations like this is to contain, and if possible deescalate.

I am not taking sides. I empathize with empathize with the LEO side and sympathize with the family.

I truly do not mean to aggravate,  Most  with LEO experience  know that those they confront are rarely utterly irrational.

Trying to finish with a positive comment.  I note again that Sammy provoked the response. I've walked some mile in his shoes, and can truthfully state that to be mentally incapable is the cruelest fate I can imagine. 

The system has been improving, Toronto Police are amongst the best in the world in dealing with this type of situation.

Offline Nemo888

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Re: "Toronto police officer charged in Sammy Yatim shooting"
« Reply #20 on: August 28, 2013, 23:38:46 »
Where do police derive their authority? Largely from their integrity. If that becomes questionable just look to the third world or even some inner cites in the US. He needs to be publicly punished for the good of the force. Crimes need to be reported and people have to want to call the police when crimes happen. Without public confidence effective policing becomes impossible. I am sorry he has to be thrown under the bus, but he will be.

Offline Hamish Seggie

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Re: "Toronto police officer charged in Sammy Yatim shooting"
« Reply #21 on: August 28, 2013, 23:48:31 »
Where do police derive their authority? Largely from their integrity. If that becomes questionable just look to the third world or even some inner cites in the US. He needs to be publicly punished for the good of the force. Crimes need to be reported and people have to want to call the police when crimes happen. Without public confidence effective policing becomes impossible. I am sorry he has to be thrown under the bus, but he will be.

Does a moderator have to spell this out for you? He has been charged but not tried nor found guilty.

I find your comment to be insensitive.
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Offline Nemo888

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Re: "Toronto police officer charged in Sammy Yatim shooting"
« Reply #22 on: August 29, 2013, 00:03:50 »
In this case it doesn't really matter. The force is more important than one man. They need to get some good optics on this. It must look like the officer is punished as most of the public have already judged him. No commission or investigative report can make up for it this time. It's a video. Throw him a bone with a good private sector job and a generous payout. Even a pension on a psych eval. Policing Toronto is already a nightmare.

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Re: "Toronto police officer charged in Sammy Yatim shooting"
« Reply #23 on: August 29, 2013, 00:05:38 »
In this case it doesn't really matter. The force is more important than one man. They need to get some good optics on this. It must look like the officer is punished as most of the public have already judged him. No commission or investigative report can make up for it this time. It's a video. Throw him a bone with a good private sector job and a generous payout. Even a pension on a psych eval. Policing Toronto is already a nightmare.
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Re: "Toronto police officer charged in Sammy Yatim shooting"
« Reply #24 on: August 29, 2013, 00:10:46 »
In this case it doesn't really matter. The force is more important than one man. They need to get some good optics on this. It must look like the officer is punished as most of the public have already judged him. No commission or investigative report can make up for it this time. It's a video. Throw him a bone with a good private sector job and a generous payout. Even a pension on a psych eval. Policing Toronto is already a nightmare.

You're the one in need of a psych evaluation..................I give you a lot of leeway because I truly believe you're troubled but tread lightly because my patience is wearing very, very thin.

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Re: "Toronto police officer charged in Sammy Yatim shooting"
« Reply #25 on: August 29, 2013, 00:22:54 »
Where do police derive their authority? Largely from their integrity.

NO.  Integrity has nothing to do with where they derive their "authority".  Their authority is derived from the LAW as laid out by the statutes of the Province of Ontario in the Police Services Act
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Re: "Toronto police officer charged in Sammy Yatim shooting"
« Reply #26 on: August 29, 2013, 07:51:41 »
The history of policing is much more complex and profound than a piece of paper. They are moral arbiters who prevent mobs meting out punishments based on gossip, revenge and jealousy. They have a quasireligious function as fair and impartial tools of justice. Police fulfill what was once the role of priests centuries ago. When that role is functional society benefits beyond measure.  But primarily It's effectiveness is based on the social contract between the officers and the policed. Perceived corruption utterly destroys policing. In many place no one calls them or even thinks of doing so when crimes are committed.

I don't think he will be treated fairly for purely political reasons and yes I do see the irony in that.

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Re: "Toronto police officer charged in Sammy Yatim shooting"
« Reply #27 on: August 29, 2013, 08:01:15 »
The history of policing is much more complex and profound than a piece of paper. They are moral arbiters who prevent mobs meting out punishments based on gossip, revenge and jealousy. They have a quasireligious function as fair and impartial tools of justice. Police fulfill what was once the role of priests centuries ago. When that role is functional society benefits beyond measure.  But primarily It's effectiveness is based on the social contract between the officers and the policed. Perceived corruption utterly destroys policing. In many place no one calls them or even thinks of doing so when crimes are committed.

What are you smoking?
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Re: "Toronto police officer charged in Sammy Yatim shooting"
« Reply #28 on: August 29, 2013, 08:45:48 »
Crown Royal.

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Re: "Toronto police officer charged in Sammy Yatim shooting"
« Reply #29 on: August 29, 2013, 09:00:58 »
Well.  Stop smoking it.  It is for sipping.
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Re: "Toronto police officer charged in Sammy Yatim shooting"
« Reply #30 on: August 29, 2013, 09:01:58 »
Where do police derive their authority? Largely from their integrity. If that becomes questionable just look to the third world or even some inner cites in the US.

No and yes. Police derive their legal authority from the law, not from their character. A dishonest, corrupt cop has the same legal authority as the best officer on the street.

Their moral and social authority ("We obey them because we believe it's the right thing to do"), comes very much from how the public view them and the system they represent: this is where their integrity comes in.  When police no longer have the trust and respect of the public they serve, their job becomes much, much harder. Maybe impossible. For example: if everybody in a city the size of Kingston  (where I live) decides to break the law, our entire city police force of around 200 all ranks would not be enough to control it. The 20 or so PC's on the street during a shift definitely can't control any more than a tiny fraction of the population at any time. But that isn't really how it works. Society relies on people obeying the law and cooperating with the police because that's what we think we should do.

Quote
He needs to be publicly punished for the good of the force.

If he is found guilty by due process, with all the defences that any Canadian is provided under our legal system, and under the assumption of innocence, I agree that he must be punished. There is no question about this: an undisciplined, unaccountable police service is a huge threat to society: anybody who has served in any Third World place knows this.

Quote
I am sorry he has to be thrown under the bus, but he will be.

I hope not. That would be absolutely the wrong approach.  Don't confuse the common legal (and military...) practice of exemplary punishment with "..throwing under the bus.." If he is wrongly sacrificed like this, IMHO two unintended effects will result:

-good cops will lose heart,  go into "avoidance mode"; and perhaps second-guess themselves at the wrong moment, when they could rightly and legally use lethal force; and

-bad cops will be reinforced in their belief that it is all about "us against the world"; the system doesn't work, and they must continue to break the law in order to "uphold" it.

That said, I doubt very much that a court case will result in him being "thrown under" any bus.  It has been pointed out that in Ontario, juries are typically reluctant even to find police guilty on charges. I am sure that the Police Association will do all it can to give him a good lawyer, which is to be expected. The Crown will have to make a very good case if it wants to win this, especially for murder.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2013, 09:08:35 by pbi »
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Re: "Toronto police officer charged in Sammy Yatim shooting"
« Reply #31 on: August 29, 2013, 11:43:01 »
Where do police derive their authority? Largely from their integrity. If that becomes questionable just look to the third world or even some inner cites in the US. He needs to be publicly punished for the good of the force. Crimes need to be reported and people have to want to call the police when crimes happen. Without public confidence effective policing becomes impossible. I am sorry he has to be thrown under the bus, but he will be.

The fact that you're supporting the violation of basic civil liberties (innocent until proven guilty and if found so then given a punishment fitting for the crime) in order to supposedly prevent the breakdown of the justice system is very disturbing. It doesn't matter if the armchair police officers of the general public have already decided he's guilty. That's why we have courts and a legal process and not lynch mobs. Those who are looking for him to be punished without trial and those who wish for him to be "made an example" of, such as yourself are, IMO, more of a threat to society than this LEO. You make it sound like he should be whipped in the town square. Your perspective is outdated and frankly rather warped.



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Re: "Toronto police officer charged in Sammy Yatim shooting"
« Reply #32 on: August 29, 2013, 12:49:57 »
Is making an example out of him different from someone suggesting that a kid facing off against a cop should be shot in the head in order to make an example out of what happens when you break the law with a weapon?

Thowing him under the bus is a bad idea for the reasons PBI wisely pointed out.  On top of that you would be naive to think that it would make a difference to the people you're suggesting.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2013, 13:00:41 by ObedientiaZelum »
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Re: "Toronto police officer charged in Sammy Yatim shooting"
« Reply #33 on: August 29, 2013, 13:09:46 »
Furthermore - there is always a segment of the population who are anti authority. Any incident involving LEO and the public is always the LEO's fault.

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Re: "Toronto police officer charged in Sammy Yatim shooting"
« Reply #34 on: August 29, 2013, 14:19:20 »
Furthermore - there is always a segment of the population who are anti authority. Any incident involving LEO and the public is always the LEO's fault.

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Re: "Toronto police officer charged in Sammy Yatim shooting"
« Reply #35 on: August 30, 2013, 15:03:29 »
Furthermore - there is always a segment of the population who are anti authority. Any incident involving LEO and the public is always the LEO's fault.
:goodpost:

This is why we need a "Like" button. I concur.  :nod:
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Re: "Toronto police officer charged in Sammy Yatim shooting"
« Reply #36 on: August 31, 2013, 18:21:09 »
...

Taken together, it seems that a fair number of people have serious, if somewhat misinformed, concerns about the police and our judicial system., and the Yatim case has brought them to the forefront.

I was brought up to respect and trust the police. While I believe that police must be held to a very high standard, and punishment of police offenders should serve an exemplary purpose, I still think that the majority of them do their jobs well, and rarely draw their weapons (and even more rarely ever shoot anybody, ever).

How did we get here?
We've gotten here for a number of reasons:

- The CSI effect.  Normally attributed to juries but this is also something I have noticed about police work in general.  A jury expects every possible investigative technique thrown at all manner of crime, whether applicable or not, and the general public have become experts in both the Use of Force continuum and what someone is realistically able to do.  How many times have we heard, "Well, they could have just shot the <insert weapons> out of his hand, they didn't have to kill him".  Realistically, police are not "trying to kill" the person, just like the military, they are putting rounds in the center of mass simply because it is the largest area to hit.

-  Combined with this there is the leakage from south of the border for everyone concerned.  The Canadian public sees high profile cases from the States and superimpose the beliefs and opinions they have formed from those cases onto actions here even when the cases are only superficially similar.  This is not simply a cops and robbers issue, we've seen people jumping the gun on CSEC based on possible illegal activities that may have occurred 13 years ago simply because the Chairman of the oversight committee deemed it worthy to put in his report that the proper paperwork could not be found or was incomplete.  Because NSA has been caught with its fingers in the cookie jar due to the Snowden leaks, ergo this is a smoking gun that says CSEC is actively and illegally targeting Canadians.

- The proliferation of technology.  Everyone has a camera and isn't afraid to use it. They also are predisposed to upload what they capture to social media.  This raw footage without informed commentary makes it easy for the naysayers to get the message out.

-  Technology also allows the naysayers to get the spun message out rapidly and very effectively to their target audience and their audience is already predisposed to believe what they are putting out.  That target audience subsequently forwards it on to their 500 Facebook friends, and out of those 50 will forward it and so on and so on...  This becomes the self licking ice cream cone with each of these people feeding their own information cycle to each other.

-  There are a few in the mainstream media who make it their goal to canonize the "victims" of police action.  I can count on one hand where a family member, friend or neighbour has come forward and said, "Yeah, Jimmy was a dirt bag".  Rather Jimmy is always the devoted father of two beautiful kids who was just trying to get by in the world and it's obvious the police overreacted and murdered him.  The police officer, on the other hand, has a tendency to go to ground and his supporters are much less likely to get out in front with the media because they want to respect the officer's privacy.

Fortunately, as Mr Campbell likes to say about the Canadian public's support of the military, the "disdain" or "mistrust" of the police is, in my perception, a mile wide but an inch deep during these instances.  How many people were they able to muster in Toronto, 3-500? out of 6 million?  Hardly overwhelming.

Finally, I find it ironic that some of the commentators were upset that the charge was 2nd Degree murder as opposed to manslaughter as they think it would be easier to get a conviction on manslaughter.  Obviously the intent in their mind is to just convict a cop as opposed to seeing justice truly served.

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Re: "Toronto police officer charged in Sammy Yatim shooting"
« Reply #37 on: August 31, 2013, 18:30:12 »
The way I see it, and really who gives a crap what I think, people need to keep in mind. Cops are everyday people. 99% of them shoot their weapon once a year. And they dont shoot particularly well. .5% miss their quals that year, and the other .5% shoot more often...generally because they like it...and they drift into streams where they shoot more often.

Shooting is such a little portion of what police officers do that its a tick in the box. I know everyone is shocked when a police officer doesnt know how to clear a weapon. They arent soldiers. They are cultivated as social workers who have LIMITED arrest and control tactics exposure that rusts if they dont practice themselves after they graduate. They have limited exposure to firearms.

Of course thats opinion. But I do train police officers. I see the good and the bad.

I try and impart on them that they are more than a duty belt that shows up to a call. They are paid to be calm and make decisions. If they are not calm (to a reasonable level) then they haven't prepared well enough. We ve had convictions on police shoots where the officer is in a 1 second two round gun fight- the judge has found the first round justified but the second round excessive. If you are not CALM (as a person can reasonably be) you will not be taking in the information to make good decisions and planning. Not everyone subscribes to that theory.

I have no opinion on the video. I think that someone has to answer when they employ force like that. I havent heard it and the video isnt good so Ill let the jury do its thing. The charge was VERY fast however. Also- the issuing of a warrant was unusual. As was the high bail.

The ONE thing from the video that I noted is that once he was contained I didnt see a response being coordinated and plan happening. I saw lots of independent officers doing their own thing. I cant help but think that PERHAPS coordination could have assisted. But thats complete arm chairing
« Last Edit: August 31, 2013, 18:47:44 by Container »
Posted again...thats six in six.

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Re: "Toronto police officer charged in Sammy Yatim shooting"
« Reply #38 on: September 01, 2013, 00:27:07 »
I know some of you have experience in the LEO fields but for those who don't I found this video on Officer involved shootings quite enlightening.

http://www.forcescience.org/hollywoodvsreality.html

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Re: "Toronto police officer charged in Sammy Yatim shooting"
« Reply #39 on: September 01, 2013, 01:04:59 »
In addition to that last link, the Ontario government is now allowing all officers to carry "conducted energy weapons" (Tasers), however each police service is responsible for the decision whether or not to issue them and must cover the cost. More at link:

http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/ontario-to-allow-police-officers-to-carry-stun-guns-1.1428226

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Re: "Toronto police officer charged in Sammy Yatim shooting"
« Reply #40 on: September 01, 2013, 16:46:10 »
Finally, I find it ironic that some of the commentators were upset that the charge was 2nd Degree murder as opposed to manslaughter as they think it would be easier to get a conviction on manslaughter.  Obviously the intent in their mind is to just convict a cop as opposed to seeing justice truly served.

This points to uninformed commentators amongst the press. Manslaughter is a lesser included offence to both 1st and 2nd degree murder. Accordingly where an individual is charged with 2nd degree murder and the crown cannot establish all the requisite elements for that charge, a jury can still find an individual guilty of manslaughter as long as all the requisite elements for manslaughter are proven.
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Re: "Toronto police officer charged in Sammy Yatim shooting"
« Reply #41 on: September 01, 2013, 18:11:46 »


- The CSI effect.
Boston Marathon bombings.

Quote
   I can count on one hand where a family member, friend or neighbour has come forward and said, "Yeah, Jimmy was a dirt bag".  Rather Jimmy is always the devoted father of two beautiful kids who was just trying to get by in the world and it's obvious the police overreacted and murdered him.
My father mentioned something like this when he worked in corrections.  An inmate's family may have never visted him once in 5 years but the minute he hangs himself the family is at the door crying about how much they miss and love their errant son and how they want to sue everybody for lots of money.
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Re: "Toronto police officer charged in Sammy Yatim shooting"
« Reply #42 on: September 01, 2013, 19:52:36 »
Boston Marathon bombings.
My father mentioned something like this when he worked in corrections.  An inmate's family may have never visted him once in 5 years but the minute he hangs himself the family is at the door crying about how much they miss and love their errant son and how they want to sue everybody for lots of money.

QFTT
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Re: "Toronto police officer charged in Sammy Yatim shooting"
« Reply #43 on: September 01, 2013, 20:52:03 »
19
My father mentioned something like this when he worked in corrections.  An inmate's family may have never visted him once in 5 years but the minute he hangs himself the family is at the door crying about how much they miss and love their errant son and how they want to sue everybody for lots of money.

We had a case like that in Winnipeg.
19 Year old gang member approaches police with a screwdriver in a threatening manner. Police order him to drop it, he advances with it.
Cops draw, one more warning, no compliance. Cop puts two into him, gangster dead.

A certain community cries "racist white cop" until its revealed that the cop that shot him is Metis. No more hubbub after that.

And Granny said he was a saint "he wasn't no gang member" ....but everyone of the inmates in the range knew him.
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Re: "Toronto police officer charged in Sammy Yatim shooting"
« Reply #44 on: September 03, 2013, 11:29:26 »
We had a case like that in Winnipeg.
19 Year old gang member approaches police with a screwdriver in a threatening manner. Police order him to drop it, he advances with it.
Cops draw, one more warning, no compliance. Cop puts two into him, gangster dead.

A certain community cries "racist white cop" until its revealed that the cop that shot him is Metis. No more hubbub after that.

And Granny said he was a saint "he wasn't no gang member" ....but everyone of the inmates in the range knew him.

IIRC it wasn't just a screwdriver, but one which had been sharpened for the express purpose of being able to go through soft body armor.... (Unless this was another shooting with similar circumstances....)

As far as the PC in Toronto goes, he is innocent until proven guilty. It's a terrible situation for everyone, and I am nothing short of disgusted at the way he was thrown under the bus in every which way. Especially the in the news. Specifically one "News" paper in Toronto named after celestial bodies....  Disgraceful, but sadly not surprising.
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Re: "Toronto police officer charged in Sammy Yatim shooting"
« Reply #45 on: March 06, 2014, 02:21:40 »
Well Crimes need to be revealed, and people have to want to contact the police when crimes occur. Without community assurance, policing monitoring becomes difficult.

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Re: "Toronto police officer charged in Sammy Yatim shooting"
« Reply #46 on: March 06, 2014, 07:55:30 »
You know that post is 6 months old right? Police Officers have all the same legal rights as you Donavann. If the situation was reversed the offender is still entitled to a fair trial and presumed innocent until proven otherwise.

 No discussion required.
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Re: "Toronto police officer charged in Sammy Yatim shooting"
« Reply #47 on: January 25, 2016, 14:06:29 »
Jan 25, 2016

Forcillo guilty of attempted murder, not guilty of second-degree murder
http://www.680news.com/2016/01/25/breaking-forcillo-guilty-of-attempted-murder-not-guilty-of-second-degree-murder/

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Re: "Toronto police officer charged in Sammy Yatim shooting"
« Reply #48 on: January 25, 2016, 14:20:20 »
I'm scratching my head at that one.

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Re: "Toronto police officer charged in Sammy Yatim shooting"
« Reply #49 on: January 25, 2016, 14:47:10 »
I'm scratching my head at that one.

To sum up from my understanding.  Forcillo fired two volleys of shots.  3 first.  Followed by 6 more when Yatim was on the ground.

The 2nd Degree charge he was found not guilty of was for the first 3 shots.  The Jury finding him not guilty means they found he was acting in the course of his duty.

The second volley is the attempt charge.  The first 3 shots were the fatal ones I believe hence why the second charge was attempt.  The 5.5 second pause from first to second volley was what made the whole second volley questionable.  He will probably appeal.

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Re: "Toronto police officer charged in Sammy Yatim shooting"
« Reply #50 on: January 25, 2016, 14:54:15 »
What is sad, is listening to the comments by people with absolutely no knowledge of firearms saying things like "they should shoot for the hands or legs".  I sure hope none of that type of person was on the jury.  If they don't understand that Police, and military, train to shoot the center of the visible mass, and use the "double tap", they should not have been selected.
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Re: "Toronto police officer charged in Sammy Yatim shooting"
« Reply #51 on: January 25, 2016, 15:01:50 »
How do they know the first 3 shots were the fatal ones?

is that cop going to keep his job after putting 6 rounds into someone on the ground?
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Re: "Toronto police officer charged in Sammy Yatim shooting"
« Reply #52 on: January 25, 2016, 15:06:55 »
Ive been hearing a lot of the same. Shoot for the limbs.  Dont have the heart to tell those saying it that a leg shot can be fatal and that's secondary to the training to shoot for center mass double tap.  A guy on drugs like Yatim was probably wont stop with wounding shot regardless.

His career is over, even with an appeal regardless of the outcome.

EDIT

Results of the shots are in this article.  Second bullet was the fatal one grazing his heart.  As to how exactly the coroner determines that I have no idea.

http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/christie-blatchford-sammy-yatims-spine-was-shattered-and-he-was-lying-on-his-back-but-const-forcillo-kept-firing-prosecutor-says
« Last Edit: January 25, 2016, 15:21:00 by Pilot-Wannabe »
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Re: "Toronto police officer charged in Sammy Yatim shooting"
« Reply #53 on: January 25, 2016, 17:08:27 »
What is sad, is listening to the comments by people with absolutely no knowledge of firearms saying things like "they should shoot for the hands or legs".  I sure hope none of that type of person was on the jury.  If they don't understand that Police, and military, train to shoot the center of the visible mass, and use the "double tap", they should not have been selected.

That is the "Hollywood" effect.  They do it in the movies and it's usually a good outcome, right?  Why can't it be done in real life like many other things in the movies.  You know, cops solver murders in under a half hour, you can dust for fingerprints anywhere and always come up with perfect ones straight away that get a hit first time on who turns out to be the prime suspect.

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Re: "Toronto police officer charged in Sammy Yatim shooting"
« Reply #54 on: January 25, 2016, 17:15:23 »
I know I solve all of my problems with a blacklight and hard rock music.  Average time is 10mins.  Lost keys, evidence of milk spilling, cat litter, murder, you name it.
Optio

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Re: "Toronto police officer charged in Sammy Yatim shooting"
« Reply #55 on: January 25, 2016, 17:18:36 »
I know I solve all of my problems with a blacklight and hard rock music.  Average time is 10mins.  Lost keys, evidence of milk spilling, cat litter, murder, you name it.

LOL.

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Re: "Toronto police officer charged in Sammy Yatim shooting"
« Reply #56 on: January 25, 2016, 19:29:07 »
How do they know the first 3 shots were the fatal ones?

I would imagine the angle of the bullets entering the body (standing vs on the ground).

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Re: "Toronto police officer charged in Sammy Yatim shooting"
« Reply #57 on: May 16, 2016, 08:45:14 »
May 16, 2016

Forcillo's lawyers seek house arrest sentence in Yatim death
http://www.680news.com/2016/05/16/forcillos-lawyers-seek-house-arrest-sentence-yatim-death/
A police officer found guilty of attempted murder in the death of a teen on an empty streetcar will be back in a Toronto courtroom Monday, where his lawyers will argue for a sentence of house arrest.
Const. James Forcillo has filed a constitutional challenge to the mandatory minimum sentence of four or five years that he faces in the shooting death of 18-year-old Sammy Yatim.

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Re: "Toronto police officer charged in Sammy Yatim shooting"
« Reply #58 on: July 28, 2016, 14:52:23 »

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Re: "Toronto police officer charged in Sammy Yatim shooting"
« Reply #59 on: July 28, 2016, 15:13:38 »
Brauti already filed the appeal before sentencing, bail application soon. Public Order units must be on standby, Forcillo is not a threat to anyone if on bail...

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Re: "Toronto police officer charged in Sammy Yatim shooting"
« Reply #60 on: July 28, 2016, 15:45:56 »
Public Order units must be on standby,

The Police Chief announced he has suspended Forcillo's salary effective today. Sammy's mother is suing the City for $8 million. His father for another $7 million...

"According to Melody Garcia, another passenger, Yatim "took his penis out with one hand and a knife in another."

Jul 29, 2016

Forcillo granted bail as he appeals conviction in Yatim death
http://www.680news.com/2016/07/29/forcillo-granted-bail-appeals-conviction-yatim-death/
A Toronto police officer sentenced to six years for gunning down a troubled teen on an empty streetcar three years ago has been granted bail while he appeals the conviction.

« Last Edit: July 29, 2016, 14:00:36 by mariomike »

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