Author Topic: Two CF members arrested in Petawawa over Cpl Bloggins Facebook page  (Read 77521 times)

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Offline DAA

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Re: Two CF members arrested in Petawawa over Cpl Bloggins Facebook page
« Reply #50 on: February 20, 2014, 20:30:23 »
It was reported that the Justice Department worked with Facebook US to action the required warrants to get the access records.  Combine that with the analysis of the computers seized from the residence(s) and there is no way they could say "Nope, it wasn't me" if it really was.

Interesting, but I find this very hard to believe, especially given the short span of attention this page has drawn.  I am no lawyer by any stretch of the imagination but I would purely "speculate" that such a thing would have to involve "CCC" indescretions, as NDA probably wouldn't cut it, for it to be taken seriously.  So the CF pursuing charges, would "have" to be under a section of the CCC.  Then if we just so happened to be the party initiating this and given that it crosses international borders, we would probably need to engage the Cdn DoJ, who in turn would send the request to the US DoJ for assistance.

I am truly surpirsed that FB would coughed up anything due to the liability issues involved.

But hopefully, what you propose, comes to fruition.  The intent behind my original post, was to bring forward the "hurdles" that would need to be jumped, inorder to get any tangible results.
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Re: Two CF members arrested in Petawawa over Cpl Bloggins Facebook page
« Reply #51 on: February 20, 2014, 20:31:50 »
UGH! Really didn't expect my first post to be on this topic..

In a lovely display of irony some members of the bloggins gang seem upset that the news isn't covering the alleged threats, posting on funeral pages by someone "pretending" to be "bloggins" (which in itself is ironic), impersonating SNCOs and Officers and making fake accounts by someone they initially were making fun of.

They're upset at, get this, at being harassed  :'(  Someone suggested that the woman involved with the homophobia and individual harassment "brought it on herself". What an awesome mind set. 
I can't speak to what happened on Bloggins page or on the alleged impersonator's page. Like so many others, I left the Bloggins page when it became an example of people being horrible to each other and never bothered with the MCpl page.

That said, I am one of the people upset as to how the Mil Spouse (Ms. L-J), who first informed Ms. Bickford that her info was published publicly on the FB page, was treated by Ms. Bickford. She tweeted the info to her and Ms. Bickford's reaction - while perhaps she was in shock, scared or intimidated - was completely over the top. She immediately began tweeting random military related accounts that she was receiving death threats, demanding the woman be investigated, and later posting her personal info and husband's name and rank on Twitter, claiming that she was being harassed by Ms. L-J. It wasn't pretty to watch.

If Ms L-J wants to complain about being harassed or bullied by Ms Bickford, I'm certainly willing to stand in her corner. 

Both parties are in the wrong and I expect the Bloggins crew will be treated more harshly (as deserved), but no one is completely innocent in this mess... and I wish we had the courage to admit that and figure out where to move on from here. 
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Re: Two CF members arrested in Petawawa over Cpl Bloggins Facebook page
« Reply #52 on: February 20, 2014, 20:38:59 »
Interesting, but I find this very hard to believe, especially given the short span of attention this page has drawn.  I am no lawyer by any stretch of the imagination but I would purely "speculate" that such a thing would have to involve "CCC" indescretions, as NDA probably wouldn't cut it, for it to be taken seriously.  So the CF pursuing charges, would "have" to be under a section of the CCC.  Then if we just so happened to be the party initiating this and given that it crosses international borders, we would probably need to engage the Cdn DoJ, who in turn would send the request to the US DoJ for assistance.

I am truly surpirsed that FB would coughed up anything due to the liability issues involved.

But hopefully, what you propose, comes to fruition.  The intent behind my original post, was to bring forward the "hurdles" that would need to be jumped, inorder to get any tangible results.

Negative.  NDA is still a federal act with charges/punishments.  Civilian warrants, issued by Judges "downtown" get issued on investigations involving NDA offences all the time and once the warrant is issued in Canada it's just a matter of getting it endorsed in the US so that it can be executed in the US.  There is no need to get the Cdn DOJ and US DOJ involved most times because there is already various MOUs between Canada and the US as well as the SOFA if its required.  When more assistance is required it just gets staffed through the RCMP Liaison Officer at the Embassy in Washington and they facilitate what ever needs to be done. 

You are right though, Facebook wouldn't give up any info without some order to do so and since production orders are not recognized in the US a search warrant for the info would have been necessary.

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Re: Two CF members arrested in Petawawa over Cpl Bloggins Facebook page
« Reply #53 on: February 20, 2014, 20:42:13 »


I am truly surpirsed that FB would coughed up anything due to the liability issues involved.



I have a friend who works for FB and we've chatted about issues like this quite a bit.

Given the whole issue of internet bullying and how much it has been in the news in the past few years (as well as the suicides that have resulted) you'd be surprised how willing they are to help out ANY legitimate law enforcement agency when issues such as these arise.
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Offline DAA

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Re: Two CF members arrested in Petawawa over Cpl Bloggins Facebook page
« Reply #54 on: February 20, 2014, 20:57:05 »
Negative.  NDA is still a federal act with charges/punishments.  Civilian warrants, issued by Judges "downtown" get issued on investigations involving NDA offences all the time and once the warrant is issued in Canada it's just a matter of getting it endorsed in the US so that it can be executed in the US.  There is no need to get the Cdn DOJ and US DOJ involved most times because there is already various MOUs between Canada and the US as well as the SOFA if its required.  When more assistance is required it just gets staffed through the RCMP Liaison Officer at the Embassy in Washington and they facilitate what ever needs to be done. 

You are right though, Facebook wouldn't give up any info without some order to do so and since production orders are not recognized in the US a search warrant for the info would have been necessary.

Great info!  I didn't think much consideration or effort would have been given to "certain" NDA infractions, especially when crossing international boundaries.  Obviously, someone put some thought and effort into this.
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Offline tovasshi

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Re: Two CF members arrested in Petawawa over Cpl Bloggins Facebook page
« Reply #55 on: February 20, 2014, 21:06:06 »
http://www.cbc.ca/m/news/#!/content/1.2545422/

The two that were arrested were charged.

Quote
  The Department of National Defence said military police started to investigate allegations of “defamation and inappropriate comments” on a Facebook page titled “Cpl Bloggins” in early January. 

Charges were laid against two members on Jan. 22, the department added.

“They were arrested for defamatory libel under the National Defence Act pursuant to the Criminal Code of Canada and use of improper comments under the Military Code of Service Discipline,” the department said. “The identity of the two CAF members arrested is protected under the Privacy Act.”

DND said military police also launched a new, separate investigation earlier this month after receiving “a subsequent complaint of alleged defamation and inappropriate comments posted on another Facebook page, also titled ‘Cpl Bloggins.’”

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Re: Two CF members arrested in Petawawa over Cpl Bloggins Facebook page
« Reply #56 on: February 20, 2014, 21:07:20 »
Why assume he needs to be handed over to the RCMP?  If there are grounds for civilian charges the garrison MPs can lay them or if the CFNIS is involved they can lay them as well.  No need to involve the RCMP unless its a jurisdictional issue and the fact the accused are CF members makes it MP/CFNIS jurisdiction.

I didn't assume anything, nor do I need any lessons on jurisdiction.

In your haste to rebut, I believe you misread.

What I said was the the CAF should charge him, say, with a 129* for being a dick* and release him as an admin burden. Then once he left the gate as a civie, the RCMP (or some other civpol) could pick him up for, I don't know, uttering threats*, hate speech* perhaps. Then fire his *** into court to face those charges.


Caveat - * =  are to be used for simple examples, not legal ones.
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Re: Two CF members arrested in Petawawa over Cpl Bloggins Facebook page
« Reply #57 on: February 20, 2014, 21:10:57 »
Quote
“The identity of the two CAF members arrested is protected under the Privacy Act.”

News to me.  Usually, the only time names are held back is during certain assault cases when identifying the accused could potentially identify the victim.

Maybe they're more concerned about backlash against the accused or protecting them from ridicule, but that's certainly not an issue under the Privacy Act.
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Re: Two CF members arrested in Petawawa over Cpl Bloggins Facebook page
« Reply #58 on: February 20, 2014, 21:17:29 »
News to me.  Usually, the only time names are held back is during certain assault cases when identifying the accused could potentially identify the victim.

Maybe they're more concerned about backlash against the accused or protecting them from ridicule, but that's certainly not an issue under the Privacy Act.

I don't imagine it'll be long before their names are out there. Everyone knows someone on base and someone knows the MSM.
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Offline ExRCDcpl

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Re: Two CF members arrested in Petawawa over Cpl Bloggins Facebook page
« Reply #59 on: February 20, 2014, 21:20:09 »
I didn't assume anything, nor do I need any lessons on jurisdiction.

In your haste to rebut, I believe you misread.

What I said was the the CAF should charge him, say, with a 129* for being a dick* and release him as an admin burden. Then once he left the gate as a civie, the RCMP (or some other civpol) could pick him up for, I don't know, uttering threats*, hate speech* perhaps. Then fire his *** into court to face those charges.


Caveat - * =  are to be used for simple examples, not legal ones.

As stated....nothing about that page is illegal outside the CF. 

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Re: Two CF members arrested in Petawawa over Cpl Bloggins Facebook page
« Reply #60 on: February 20, 2014, 21:32:19 »
I believe, if one actually checked, the other page that went up was called "Master Corporal Bloggins" *thus out-ranking him  ;), not posing as him ... and had some posts about "anti-bullying, stand up to bullies" etc.  I viewed it once and it resembled nothing as crass and hateful such as the "Corporal Bloggins" page did.

Sadly I don't think thats the case. Someone was pretending to be Cpl Bloggins and posting hateful crap all over the place including memorial pages in order to stir up hate against bloggins.

The people arrested were probably just admins from the page.
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Offline Fishbone Jones

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Re: Two CF members arrested in Petawawa over Cpl Bloggins Facebook page
« Reply #61 on: February 20, 2014, 21:33:51 »
As stated....nothing about that page is illegal outside the CF.

Illegal is in the eye of the Crown Attorney ;)
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Re: Two CF members arrested in Petawawa over Cpl Bloggins Facebook page
« Reply #62 on: February 20, 2014, 21:36:51 »
As stated....nothing about that page is illegal outside the CF.

The times they are a changing ...

Sung by a much richer (and talented) individual than I.

Hopefully, in the spring:

New cyberbullying laws should pass this spring, Justice Minister says

And there is this already:  ... scroll down the below link to the "Traditional Offences" section and read the "Intimidation" bit ...

They put this woman's address on their page. They googlemapped her residence and posted a still shot taken from the street of her residence and threatened to put "boots on the ground" there.  They put her wife's name, workplace and trade out there ... walking a pretty fine damn line there with "intimidation" n'est pas?  The section after that is "Criminal Harassment and Threats of all Kind" - give it a read too.

http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/qc/pub/cybercrime/cybercrime-eng.htm
« Last Edit: February 20, 2014, 21:40:15 by ArmyVern »
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Re: Two CF members arrested in Petawawa over Cpl Bloggins Facebook page
« Reply #63 on: February 20, 2014, 21:47:27 »
I wasn't aware of the case of them posting the woman's address etc....intimidation might stick however if the boots on the ground statement is the only one made....it's too vague and I doubt a conviction in court would result.

Criminal harassment, I can assure you through personal experience, will not fly.  I've tried laying an information for similar Facebook bullying......Crown wouldn't touch it.

As for the new cyber bullying laws....all well and good....but as of now they aren't law so it's really a moot point.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2014, 21:50:41 by RCDcpl »

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Re: Two CF members arrested in Petawawa over Cpl Bloggins Facebook page
« Reply #64 on: February 20, 2014, 21:50:00 »
Quote
“The identity of the two CAF members arrested is protected under the Privacy Act.”
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Re: Two CF members arrested in Petawawa over Cpl Bloggins Facebook page
« Reply #65 on: February 20, 2014, 21:51:49 »
I wasn't aware of the case of them posting the woman's address etc....intimidation might stick however if the boots on the ground statement is the only one made....it's too vague and I doubt a conviction in court would result.

Criminal harassment, I can assure you through personal experience, will not fly.  I've tried laying charges for similar Facebook bullying......Crown wouldn't touch it.

As recceguy pointed out: Crown wouldn't touch it in your case. As far as I know, this is not your case.

Quote

As for the new cyber bullying laws....all well and good....but as of now they aren't law so it's really a moot point.

Ergo the reason for my little ditty of a song and the "Hopefully, in the spring". Sorry it went over your head.
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Re: Two CF members arrested in Petawawa over Cpl Bloggins Facebook page
« Reply #66 on: February 20, 2014, 21:52:27 »
I wasn't aware of the case of them posting the woman's address etc....intimidation might stick.
They did, thus they deserve to be held accountable for their actions.

Sadly, very similar actions were then perpetrated by their victim when another individual informed her what they'd done.

It's an incredibly vicious cycle and no one's blameless in it.
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Re: Two CF members arrested in Petawawa over Cpl Bloggins Facebook page
« Reply #67 on: February 20, 2014, 22:04:00 »
As recceguy pointed out: Crown wouldn't touch it in your case. As far as I know, this is not your case.

Ergo the reason for my little ditty of a song and the "Hopefully, in the spring". Sorry it went over your head.

You're right...this isn't my case.  But I've seen cases where the bullying was far more vicious and personal than this and because the elements of the offence were not met...crown wouldn't touch them.

There's a reason new laws are being put into place...the main one being that the current criminal code doesn't cover cyber bullying or really any kind of cyber crimes such as this.  If the police could actually lay informations and get convictions with what we have now...the new laws wouldn't be necessary.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2014, 22:06:35 by RCDcpl »

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Re: Two CF members arrested in Petawawa over Cpl Bloggins Facebook page
« Reply #68 on: February 20, 2014, 22:09:16 »
...

I'm not looking for any kind of argument etc...I've said my piece.....evidently you have much more experience than I do in the criminal justice system and how courts work.....I apologize.

Probably not, but I was subpoenaed at my wedding rehearsal dinner (try explaining that to the grandparents etc).   :blotto:  I've just seen the Crown decide to charge in one instance, but not in another when the circumstances were eerily similar. It just depends sometimes.

I have been on either side of the NDA however; sigh, so now I pose as a grown-up.   ;D


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Re: Two CF members arrested in Petawawa over Cpl Bloggins Facebook page
« Reply #69 on: February 20, 2014, 22:15:57 »
You're right...this isn't my case.  But I've seen cases where the bullying was far more vicious and personal than this and because the elements of the offence were not met...crown wouldn't touch them.

There's a reason new laws are being put into place...the main one being that the current criminal code doesn't cover cyber bullying or really any kind of cyber crimes such as this.  If the police could actually lay informations and get convictions with what we have now...the new laws wouldn't be necessary.

I'm not looking for any kind of argument etc...I've said my piece.....evidently you have much more experience than I do in the criminal justice system and how courts work.....I apologize.

Your obviously not cognizant of the Crown charging gun owners for things there is no hope of the Crown winning. Drag them though preliminaries, rack up lawyers fees, time, stress, etc. In the end, they make it so onerous most plead out, take a ten year weapons prohibition and have all their firearms confiscated to stop the suffering. Typically, when they fight it up to trial the Crown drops the charges. Doesn't help the poor ******* that's had his life ruined and spent 10's of thousands trying to win against unlawful charges.

The Crown doesn't need to take you to trial to ruin you.

However, I don't mean to sidetrack and will drop this also. No harm, no foul.
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Offline ExRCDcpl

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Re: Two CF members arrested in Petawawa over Cpl Bloggins Facebook page
« Reply #70 on: February 20, 2014, 22:28:06 »
I'm quite aware things like this can and do happen.  Costs you a pretty penny to defend yourself.

However in this case it would be through the military justice system so he wouldn't be paying for an attorney.  If there's no reasonable prospect of conviction AND he's being represented by a legal officer for free....see where I'm going with this.

I believe these new laws are a good step forward...however, unfortunately for now, we are hamstrung with what can be done on cases such as this.

Also, please don't anyone think I'm looking for an argument or anything of the such...I'm merely trying to share previous experiences with similar events so as to potentially keep wild speculation at a minimum.  Like I said...I'm curious to see how all this plays out.

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Re: Two CF members arrested in Petawawa over Cpl Bloggins Facebook page
« Reply #71 on: February 20, 2014, 22:41:03 »
I wasn't aware of the case of them posting the woman's address etc....intimidation might stick however if the boots on the ground statement is the only one made....it's too vague and I doubt a conviction in court would result.

Criminal harassment, I can assure you through personal experience, will not fly.  I've tried laying an information for similar Facebook bullying......Crown wouldn't touch it.

As for the new cyber bullying laws....all well and good....but as of now they aren't law so it's really a moot point.

Something similar to what I am thinking as well.  The only difference, is that this will not find itself in a civilian court.  So the question is, if the CF/Military deals with it, just how will this turn out.  We see members of the CF, charged under the NDA for various offences that would and are scoffed at outside of the service.

If the charges are purely NDA, then that is one thing.  But if they reference the CCC, then I think the standard/burden of proof, may be slightly higher and held to more scrutiny.

Your obviously not cognizant of the Crown charging gun owners for things there is no hope of the Crown winning. Drag them though preliminaries, rack up lawyers fees, time, stress, etc. In the end, they make it so onerous most plead out, take a ten year weapons prohibition and have all their firearms confiscated to stop the suffering. Typically, when they fight it up to trial the Crown drops the charges. Doesn't help the poor ******* that's had his life ruined and spent 10's of thousands trying to win against unlawful charges.
The Crown doesn't need to take you to trial to ruin you.

Sounds like you have been the subject of a Military DI where nothing ever came of it.  Maybe this is nothing more than an exercise in "deterence".  Of course, at no "fiscal" costs to the accused.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2014, 22:44:05 by DAA »
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Re: Two CF members arrested in Petawawa over Cpl Bloggins Facebook page
« Reply #72 on: February 20, 2014, 22:59:24 »
If the charges are purely NDA, then that is one thing.  But if they reference the CCC, then I think the standard/burden of proof, may be slightly higher and held to more scrutiny.
Negative.  Courts Martial have the same high standard of proof as a criminal court.

... And going up a few posts we see charges were laid under NDA, with at least one 130 (which in this case applies a Criminal Code of Canada charge through the NDA).

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Re: Two CF members arrested in Petawawa over Cpl Bloggins Facebook page
« Reply #73 on: February 20, 2014, 23:44:41 »
He is back up and Armyvern you figure prominently.
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Re: Two CF members arrested in Petawawa over Cpl Bloggins Facebook page
« Reply #74 on: February 21, 2014, 00:10:43 »
RCD Cpl,

administrative actions are separate from charges.  Charges (or not), under the NDA or CCC or other means, do not preclude admin actions.  If the paperwork is in order, i.e. lots of written warnings, other written docs, he can grieve until his heart's content.  If properly documented, admin action is not very hard to hold up to a grievance.  Without this written (can't emphasize written enough) info, a grievance may or may not be successful, but the odds go up.  So, the member can be found guilty or not, and admin actions can still occur.
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