Author Topic: Engine Room Fire in HMCS Protecteur  (Read 109495 times)

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Offline Not a Sig Op

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Re: Engine Room Fire in HMCS Protecteur
« Reply #25 on: March 01, 2014, 09:03:07 »
Training the crews for a chinook is a lot easier then retraining a ships company (as they also do maintenance to keep it operating 24/7 for months at a time).  Leasing has been looked at before and not really feasible (time wise) unless it includes a crew.  Basically you rent an oiler to keep time on station to give you gas as required.  As you can imagine, they charge a fortune for the convenience.

Leasing a ship that's at the end of it's service life to replace another ship that's been dragged long beyond the end of it's service life isn't a great option, but...

Civi side it's regularly expected that you can move from one ship to another ship with little difficulty. The basic systems are all generally the same. Bit of time to learn where valves are, and where bits and pieces are poked away to, and there's always the "it's always been like that" factor, but reasonably, if you leased a few experienced American crew along with it, a few months and you should be fine.

Given that they were built in the early-90s, they probably still have most of the original drawings on board, and the ship probably still comes close to the as-builts... so much less of a big deal than you'd think to have a crew that could run it.

Is it normal for navy folks to spend the majority of their career on a single ship? It's been my experience in the civilian world that this sort of sailor (in the maintenance department anyway) knows that single ship very well, but picks up a lot of bad habits, and a great many repairs are work-arounds rather than done right.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2014, 09:06:04 by a Sig Op »
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jollyjacktar

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Re: Engine Room Fire in HMCS Protecteur
« Reply #26 on: March 01, 2014, 09:30:39 »
To a certain extent, yes, some trades gravitate back to the same class ship again and again.  Stokers on the Tankers have all been there for years as they have class specific tickets and experience as they are steam ships and that you cannot just pick up.  All three classes have their own little strange ways and needs.  Some things are easily adapted to, but others no so much.

Offline Not a Sig Op

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Re: Engine Room Fire in HMCS Protecteur
« Reply #27 on: March 01, 2014, 09:40:41 »
Stokers on the Tankers have all been there for years as they have class specific tickets and experience as they are steam ships and that you cannot just pick up.

Or in other words, they're going to have to be retrained regardless once the tankers go?
Remember troops, the minimum acceptable standard is still an acceptable standard.

Offline Oldgateboatdriver

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Re: Engine Room Fire in HMCS Protecteur
« Reply #28 on: March 01, 2014, 10:16:32 »
Personally, I think its time to seriously look at the option of purchasing immediately the Dutch JSS that is almost completed (another 6 months at most) and they are trying to get rid of. She becomes the stopgap ship until the QUEENSTOWN's come on line, at which point she goes in semi-retirement as back-up when needed.

From a political point of view, it is unfortunate that all this is happening when one of the more powerful member of the Joint (Senate/Commons) Defence Committee, Senator Colin, is under a heavy cloud. He is the type of member who would have had the clout to push for something like that.

Offline suffolkowner

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Re: Engine Room Fire in HMCS Protecteur
« Reply #29 on: March 01, 2014, 10:53:20 »
I think the Dutch decided to keep their JSS(?)

What would the amount of a repair have to be to pay off the ship in everyone's opinion.

The Aussies paid 100/150 million for the Bay Class LPD(?). I really think a purchase of the US fast supply ships would make sense, however DND does not like having to think on their feet

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Re: Engine Room Fire in HMCS Protecteur
« Reply #30 on: March 01, 2014, 11:10:58 »
I think the Dutch decided to keep their JSS(?)
Yes, they're getting out of the Main Battle Tank business instead, selling those to Finland. Link 
The JSS is on-schedule and within budget.  The ongoing story is here.

At the end of the JSS feed, there's this:
Quote
Similar & Related Vessels
◾ DID – Canada’s C$ 2.9B “Joint Support Ship” Project Sinks. Canada decided to go its own way, and the program eventually broke their budgets.
Sadly amazed at people cheering on the spread of kakistocracy.   :not-again:

Offline dapaterson

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Re: Engine Room Fire in HMCS Protecteur
« Reply #31 on: March 01, 2014, 12:42:14 »
From a political point of view, it is unfortunate that all this is happening when one of the more powerful member of the Joint (Senate/Commons) Defence Committee, Senator Colin, is under a heavy cloud. He is the type of member who would have had the clout to push for something like that.

He's been under a cloud for years - but since he's a useful source of leaks, the Hill scribes never reported on him or his activities (other than Frank).  Par for the cosy incestuous media/government course on the Hill...
This posting made in accordance with the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, section 2(b):
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Offline Good2Golf

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Re: Engine Room Fire in HMCS Protecteur
« Reply #32 on: March 01, 2014, 13:19:56 »
Training the crews for a chinook is a lot easier then retraining a ships company (as they also do maintenance to keep it operating 24/7 for months at a time).  Leasing has been looked at before and not really feasible (time wise) unless it includes a crew.  Basically you rent an oiler to keep time on station to give you gas as required.  As you can imagine, they charge a fortune for the convenience.

Everytime one of the AORs goes in for a refit the ship is effectively out of commission for two years, and the fleets don't shut down. 

I think the big thing here is that despite having a major space fire on a 50+ year old commercially designed ship, the crew kept it confined to the engine room and no one was killed, so BZ to them.

Knowing a family friend's experience (a stoker on HMCS Saguenay) he related about late October 1969 and his Ship's involvement with HMCS Kootenay, I am very much mindful of the discipline and excellent performance of PRO's crew in containing the fire, as you and others have said, BZ to the Ship's crew!

So if PRO is beyond economical repair will the RCN not pursue any capability in advance of the new ships?  I'm not fully up to speed on the complexities of a ship, but one should not mistakenly underestimate the challenges of training, operational and airworthiness maintenance aspects of putting an airborne system into a combat theatre.  Perhaps DMR folks could chat with the DAR folks on the issue to see if the interim capability is entirely unfeasible before ruling it out of hand.

Regards
G2G
« Last Edit: March 01, 2014, 13:30:39 by Good2Golf »

Offline Navy_Pete

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Re: Engine Room Fire in HMCS Protecteur
« Reply #33 on: March 01, 2014, 13:46:40 »
This is absolutely true.  Hopefully though this highlights the requirement for the new supply ships, as I don't think a lot of Canadians are aware of A) the age of the AORs and B) the fact that they are steam ships!

Offline Not a Sig Op

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Re: Engine Room Fire in HMCS Protecteur
« Reply #34 on: March 01, 2014, 14:33:00 »
As far as the tankers go, the average canadian isn't aware of c) they exist

It's not exactly a problem on the forefront of the Canadian mind.
Remember troops, the minimum acceptable standard is still an acceptable standard.

Offline Navy_Pete

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Re: Engine Room Fire in HMCS Protecteur
« Reply #35 on: March 01, 2014, 16:17:00 »
Knowing a family friend's experience (a stoker on HMCS Saguenay) he related about late October 1969 and his Ship's involvement with HMCS Kootenay, I am very much mindful of the discipline and excellent performance of PRO's crew in containing the fire, as you and others have said, BZ to the Ship's crew!

So if PRO is beyond economical repair will the RCN not pursue any capability in advance of the new ships?  I'm not fully up to speed on the complexities of a ship, but one should not mistakenly underestimate the challenges of training, operational and airworthiness maintenance aspects of putting an airborne system into a combat theatre.  Perhaps DMR folks could chat with the DAR folks on the issue to see if the interim capability is entirely unfeasible before ruling it out of hand.

Regards
G2G

In addition to the training, you'd have to figure out sparing for a whole new one off ship, as well as figure out 2nd line repair and training for the FMF... all of that would cost a whack of money, and we don't have any.

Airworthiness adds a lot of paperwork requirements, but a helicopter is a lot easier to maintain while deployed simply due to it's relative size, but there are also a lot less systems that aren't required when you don't live onboard.  There's just a lot more stuff that you need to learn how to run and maintain.

It'd be doable, but it's just not affordable.  I think if PRO is not repairable, we're probably SOL until a new ship comes along.  It really doesn't make sense long term to bring in another ship short term to fill the gap when by the time we get it up and running the new ships will be cutting steel.  We'd also most likely be stuck having to get rid of any ship we picked up, and that can cost millions with all the environmental issues.

Offline suffolkowner

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Re: Engine Room Fire in HMCS Protecteur
« Reply #36 on: March 01, 2014, 17:42:01 »
How long is an acceptable time to go without RAS? Our present plan calls for 18-24 mths between paying off Protecteur and commissioning of the Queenstowns. Supposedly at a cost of $55 million. I'm not sure what's involved in that amount though. I would think it is costing more than that to run our two AOR's right now.
I am curious what happens to all the seamen during that up to 2 yr period or more?

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Re: Engine Room Fire in HMCS Protecteur
« Reply #37 on: March 01, 2014, 17:52:11 »
Or in other words, they're going to have to be retrained regardless once the tankers go?
To be Frank, yes.  I was posted to a CPF 2 months after she went into HCM.  I am leaving her soon after taking her our of the refit January of last year.  It was a whole new world for me in many respects.  A steep learning curve, however, it was tempered by my not having to brain dump the equipment that was replaced and brought into the digital age.  I also spent some time on ATH before coming to my present ship.  Each ship was like going from a new generation of technology to the next or better.  Each type is it's own world, all unique in their own way. 

Offline AirDet

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Re: Engine Room Fire in HMCS Protecteur
« Reply #38 on: March 01, 2014, 18:10:50 »
I think the Dutch decided to keep their JSS(?)

What would the amount of a repair have to be to pay off the ship in everyone's opinion.

The Aussies paid 100/150 million for the Bay Class LPD(?). I really think a purchase of the US fast supply ships would make sense, however DND does not like having to think on their feet

To pay off a ship means to retire it.
Just because an opinion differs doesn't make it any less valid. Remember those who gave their ALL to guarantee freedom of speech.

Offline suffolkowner

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Re: Engine Room Fire in HMCS Protecteur
« Reply #39 on: March 01, 2014, 18:15:32 »
To pay off a ship means to retire it.

I know

I meant how much money would be too much to return to service and thus necessitate her being paid off

Offline AirDet

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Re: Engine Room Fire in HMCS Protecteur
« Reply #40 on: March 01, 2014, 18:19:01 »
Funny, but from what I've seen the more appealing the port the longer repairs seem to take ;)

Ain't that the truth. Over a month in Singapore... if we stayed any longer they would've had to give us green cards. Nice place to be stranded though.
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Offline E.R. Campbell

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Re: Engine Room Fire in HMCS Protecteur
« Reply #41 on: March 02, 2014, 09:52:58 »
It is being reported that high winds have delayed an attempt to tow Protecteur back to Hawaii?

Does anyone have any accurate information re: her status?
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Offline Navy_Pete

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Re: Engine Room Fire in HMCS Protecteur
« Reply #42 on: March 02, 2014, 10:14:24 »
Saw this piece of good news this am;

http://www.marketwired.com/press-release/family-members-from-hmcs-protecteur-transferred-usn-warship-will-be-taken-pearl-harbour-1884309.htm

Quote
Family Members From HMCS Protecteur Transferred to USN Warship - Will Be taken to Pearl Harbour, Hawaii

ESQUIMALT, BRITISH COLUMBIA--(Marketwired - March 1, 2014) - Department of National Defence / Royal Canadian Navy

This is the latest information regarding Her Majesty's Canadian Ship (HMCS) Protecteur. The ship remains stopped 340 nautical miles North East of Hawaii. During the morning of March 1, United States Ship (USS) Chosin reached HMCS Protecteur and commenced transferring additional relief supplies to HMCS Protecteur using USS Chosin's helicopter. A helicopter then began transferring family members who were on HMCS Protecteur to USS Michael Murphy, where they will sail safely to Pearl Harbour.

Over the next 24 hours it is anticipated that HMCS Protecteur will be taken under tow by the USS Chosin and start her transit back to Pearl Harbour. Once in Hawaii, efforts will commence to prepare Protecteur for her return to Esquimalt. We remain in very close contact with the Protecteur family members.

The Royal Canadian Navy is very appreciative of the tremendous support that has been provided by the USN and United Stated Coast Guard throughout this very difficult situation. It is yet another example of the strong relationship and interoperability that exists between our navies.

Quick Facts

    The fire in HMCS Protecteur is completely extinguished.

    The 20 personnel on board HMCS Protecteur who received minor injuries have been treated and most have returned to regular duties. The state of their health continues to be monitored by the ship's medical staff.

    Yesterday at 3 p.m. PST, USS Michael Murphy arrived at HMCS Protecteur's location and provided relief supplies including water. The USN warship attempted to take Protecteur under tow but weather conditions, specifically high winds, hampered those efforts. The Michael Murphy remained on scene with HMCS Protecteur overnight.

    The weather conditions in the area are predicted to deteriorate further over the next 24 hours but should improve overnight on Sunday.

    Fleet Ocean tug USNS Sioux is also heading towards Protecteur to assist in the towing operations if necessary.

    HMCS Protecteur has limited electrical power and onboard systems are being reactivated in a controlled manner. The ships company is well and focused on recovery operations in the ship and rest. Ongoing medical and support services are being provided to all onboard.

    There are reports of significant fire and heat damage to the ship's engine room and considerable heat and smoke damage in surrounding compartments. An extensive and detailed damage assessment will be commenced once the ship arrives in Hawaii. An investigation into the cause of the fire is also being initiated.


Once again, USN coming to our rescue.  For all the occasional teasing, they are a great friend to have in your corner. :salute:

Offline mad dog 2020

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Re: Engine Room Fire in HMCS Protecteur
« Reply #43 on: March 02, 2014, 10:28:31 »
Thank God for their assistance!
It is kinda embarassing we are always the poor cousin relying on Big Brother.
Maybe time to be realistic on our capabilities. We are a great military just crap equipment.
God bless the people who make it work and prayers for this dangerous situation to end.

jollyjacktar

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Re: Engine Room Fire in HMCS Protecteur
« Reply #44 on: March 02, 2014, 10:35:36 »
Yes, the USN is a great friend and ally.  I've always liked and admired them.   

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Offline Halifax Tar

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Re: Engine Room Fire in HMCS Protecteur
« Reply #47 on: March 02, 2014, 20:37:18 »
Yes, the USN is a great friend and ally.  I've always liked and admired them.

+1 From me buddy!  Never had a bad experience with the USN.
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Offline PuckChaser

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Re: Engine Room Fire in HMCS Protecteur
« Reply #48 on: March 03, 2014, 00:05:32 »
Glad all the sailors are back to full duties, and that no serious injuries happened. New JSS can't come soon enough.

Offline MCG

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Re: Engine Room Fire in HMCS Protecteur
« Reply #49 on: March 03, 2014, 03:41:40 »
Sounds like the crew just can’t catch a break.
Quote
Line towing fire-damaged HMCS Protecteur to Hawaii breaks
 Canadian supply ship based in Esquimalt, B.C. hopes to dock at Pearl Harbor mid-week

Updated: 02 March 2014
CBC News

The line towing HMCS Protecteur en route to Hawaii broke Sunday after the ship was taken under tow in "challenging weather conditions" by the U.S. navy cruiser USS Chosin. An engine fire left it stranded Thursday in heavy seas.

Lieutenant Commander Desmond James said the navy is working to get Protecteur back under tow, but does not know yet when that will happen.

Commodore Bob Auchterlonie, the commander of Canada's Pacific naval fleet, said the destroyer, the USS Michael Murphy, was accompanying Protecteur as the ships tried to make their way at five knots or less [9 km/h] toward Pearl Harbor, 630 km away.

The family of crew members, who were on board Protecteur when the fire broke out, were transferred to the USS Murphy on Saturday.

Auchterlonie says the fleet ocean tug USNS Sioux is also on station near Protecteur should problems arise.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/line-towing-fire-damaged-hmcs-protecteur-to-hawaii-breaks-1.2555354