Author Topic: Armed Forces Consider incentives to keep soldiers fit  (Read 124254 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Bluebulldog

  • Every life gets a second act.
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • 10,705
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 281
  • ignis aurum probat
Armed Forces Consider incentives to keep soldiers fit
« on: April 09, 2014, 16:27:37 »
http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/armed-forces-considers-incentives-to-keep-soldiers-fit-1.2602857

"Most soldiers are passing new fitness test, but military wants them to strive for higher standards"

Interesting read. Funny how getting the level that gave you a pass for two years was said to be counter-intuitive.

Age and treachery will always trump out youth and enthusiasm.

Offline PMedMoe

    is retired and loving it!

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Legend
  • *
  • 248,605
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 10,136
Re: Armed Forces Consider incentives to keep soldiers fit
« Reply #1 on: April 09, 2014, 17:15:56 »
Quote
consulting with the director of heritage and history on what medals, coins or pins could be given out.

Oh, yippee.....   ::)

Edit to add:  Loving all the "in the old days" comments on there.   :warstory:
« Last Edit: April 09, 2014, 17:21:34 by PMedMoe »
"A good traveler has no fixed plans, and is not intent on arriving".
~ Lao Tzu~

Offline horatio749

  • New Member
  • **
  • 1,430
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 32
Re: Armed Forces Consider incentives to keep soldiers fit
« Reply #2 on: April 09, 2014, 17:26:02 »
We were asked this question when I did my FORCE test a month or so ago.
Pretty sure most of the "incentives" were things like, time off, PDR Points, even money.
 

Offline dangerboy

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *
  • 320,324
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 2,689
Re: Armed Forces Consider incentives to keep soldiers fit
« Reply #3 on: April 09, 2014, 17:29:51 »
I replied you should get nothing, it is part of your job.
All right, they're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us... they can't get away this time.
- Lt Gen Lewis B. Puller, USMC

Offline NFLD Sapper

  • Mentor
  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *
  • 274,081
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 8,971
  • CFSME STAFF
Re: Armed Forces Consider incentives to keep soldiers fit
« Reply #4 on: April 09, 2014, 17:32:08 »
I replied you should get nothing, it is part of your job.

 :goodpost:
CHIMO!
First in, Last out
Sappers Lead the Way

Just tell your wife she owes your life to some Muddy Old Engineer,
Some dusty, crusty, croaking, joking Muddy Old Engineer

Offline DAA

    Administration is not an exact science..

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *
  • 90,490
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 3,281
Re: Armed Forces Consider incentives to keep soldiers fit
« Reply #5 on: April 09, 2014, 17:39:33 »
I replied you should get nothing, it is part of your job.

I guess my vote for "beer mugs" is out the window.......
Got a question that you're afraid to ask online?  PM me!  I don't bite........

Offline PuckChaser

  • Directing Staff
  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *
  • 902,250
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 7,749
    • Peacekeeper's Homepage
Re: Armed Forces Consider incentives to keep soldiers fit
« Reply #6 on: April 09, 2014, 17:40:52 »
We were asked this question when I did my FORCE test a month or so ago.
Pretty sure most of the "incentives" were things like, time off, PDR Points, even money.

Was "not losing your job" one of the options? Because it should be the only one. If you can't be professional enough to stay fit for your job, then you shouldn't be a professional soldier.

Offline Robert0288

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • 22,167
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 493
Re: Armed Forces Consider incentives to keep soldiers fit
« Reply #7 on: April 09, 2014, 17:46:38 »
Was "not losing your job" one of the options? Because it should be the only one. If you can't be professional enough to stay fit for your job, then you shouldn't be a professional soldier.
:goodpost:  Exactly this.

Quote
"The FORCE evaluation is essentially the minimum standard for the universality of service...."
http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/armed-forces-considers-incentives-to-keep-soldiers-fit-1.2602857

Offline Haggis

  • "There ain't no hat badge on a helmet!"
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 50,740
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 2,483
  • "Oh, what a glorious sight, Warm-reekin, rich!"
Re: Armed Forces Consider incentives to keep soldiers fit
« Reply #8 on: April 09, 2014, 17:52:28 »
Vitriolic..... rant..... building.

Must.....not.... type...... what.... I'm...... thinking.........


Hulk.....very....angry........

Train like your life depends on it.  Some day, it may.

Offline Rider Pride

  • Mentor
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *
  • 29,368
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 4,814
  • Easy to draw, hard to spell
Re: Armed Forces Consider incentives to keep soldiers fit
« Reply #9 on: April 09, 2014, 18:03:31 »
CAF members forget that this is meant to determine the baseline, the minimum standard, of fitness for ALL members of the Canadian Armed Forces.

There should be no additional incentives.

If people want to show off their fitness level, then let them pursue other means: inter unit sports and other sponsored events or non-CAF events like Tough Mudder or Mud Run. Nothing prevents units from having their own internal fitness competitions with compensation for good performance.
"Return with your shield, or upon it."

Offline Ayrsayle

  • Mentor
  • Full Member
  • *
  • 23,804
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 380
Re: Armed Forces Consider incentives to keep soldiers fit
« Reply #10 on: April 09, 2014, 18:08:29 »
We've been this discussion in the office over the last few weeks.

The reality of the situation is that as long as a solider meets the "minimal" standard, there is very little incentive (outside of personal pride) to reach any other standard.  The FORCE Test will have more successful members, but by and large will decrease the overall levels of fitness within the military.

There is very little (In my opinion, nothing) from a command perspective to motivate soldiers to improve beyond the minimum standard.  Most of the suggestions were along the lines of "Have specific Environment/trade requirements for PT rather then only the FORCE test"  Shiny brass isn't really going to motivate a significant amount of pers above that who are already motivated.
Leadership is understanding people and involving them to help you do a job. That takes all of the good characteristics, like integrity, dedication of purpose, selflessness, knowledge, skill, implacability, as well as determination not to accept failure. ~Admiral Arleigh A. Burke

"It takes 10 minutes to dress like an Infantryman, but it takes a few years to become a good one" - Jungle (Army.ca)

Offline Brihard

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 158,155
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 3,958
  • Non-Electric Pop-Up Target
Re: Armed Forces Consider incentives to keep soldiers fit
« Reply #11 on: April 09, 2014, 18:14:59 »
Find Cpl Bloggins, and hire him into a sub-branch of the Public Affairs world to be named the "Fitness Assessment Test Appraisal / Stigmatic Shaming" det. All FORCE or other fitness tests will be be filmed and streamed online, with personnel identified by name and unit, with uncensored commentary enabled. One combat arms company at a time will rotate on a monthly basis through being tasked to spend an hour a day watching and commenting on the videos in lieu of staring at lockers. CF members will be required to review any public comments received on their fitness tests on a monthly basis.
Pacificsm is doctrine fostered by a delusional minority and by the media, which holds forth the proposition it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.

Offline Dimsum

    West coast best coast.

  • Mentor
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *
  • 149,945
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 4,377
  • I get paid to travel. I just don't pick where.
Re: Armed Forces Consider incentives to keep soldiers fit
« Reply #12 on: April 09, 2014, 18:29:03 »
CAF members forget that this is meant to determine the baseline, the minimum standard, of fitness for ALL members of the Canadian Armed Forces.

There should be no additional incentives.

If people want to show off their fitness level, then let them pursue other means: inter unit sports and other sponsored events or non-CAF events like Tough Mudder or Mud Run. Nothing prevents units from having their own internal fitness competitions with compensation for good performance.

Exactly. 

Also, does the CAF sponsor or reimburse big events like triathlons, marathons (not just Army/AF Runs), etc?  Usually a marathon costs about $120-150; having the CAF reimburse members who do it may be an incentive and promote the CAF to the public (if wearing a CAF jersey or similar) at something like the BMO Vancouver Marathon or the Comox Snow to Surf competition.

At least for running events, the ADF will sponsor any marathon provided the member wears an official ADF running shirt. 
Philip II of Macedon to Spartans (346 BC):  "You are advised to submit without further delay, for if I bring my army into your land, I will destroy your farms, slay your people, and raze your city."

Reply:  "If."

Offline George Wallace

  • Army.ca Fossil
  • *****
  • 433,525
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 31,551
  • Crewman
Re: Armed Forces Consider incentives to keep soldiers fit
« Reply #13 on: April 09, 2014, 18:40:09 »
It is all about the 'bling'.

Sound familiar?
DISCLAIMER: The opinions and arguments of George Wallace posted on this Site are solely those of George Wallace and not the opinion of Army.ca and are posted for information purposes only.
Unless so stated, they are reflective of my opinion -- and my opinion only, a right that I enjoy along with every other Canadian citizen.

Offline dapaterson

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Myth
  • *
  • 412,400
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 15,693
Re: Armed Forces Consider incentives to keep soldiers fit
« Reply #14 on: April 09, 2014, 18:42:26 »
Why do we need national direction on something like this?  Why not employ, oh, leadership at the unit level?

Let Commanding Officers come up with incentives that will be meaningful to their own troops.  A day of short?  Recognition within the unit?  First pick of some jammy goes?  All kinds of things a CO can do.
This posting made in accordance with the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, section 2(b):
Everyone has the following fundamental freedoms: freedom of thought, belief, opinion and expression, including freedom of the press and other media of communication
http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/charter/1.html

Online ballz

    ...

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *
  • 107,271
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 2,117
Re: Armed Forces Consider incentives to keep soldiers fit
« Reply #15 on: April 09, 2014, 19:00:52 »
Why do we need national direction on something like this?  Why not employ, oh, leadership at the unit level?

Let Commanding Officers come up with incentives that will be meaningful to their own troops.  A day of short?  Recognition within the unit?  First pick of some jammy goes?  All kinds of things a CO can do.

You can reward fit people all you want, but from what I've seen the fat lazy folks are more than happy to come to work and sit around and do nothing all day. They won't be motivated by a day off, they won't be motivated by a gucci course because they are too lazy to go on it anyway, and they don't care about recognition from the unit because they are happy to stay as a Cpl or MCpl because the responsibility of being in a leadership role also takes more energy than they are comfortable exerting, so being in a rifle company with a med chit so they can't be forced to do PT is about as jammy a go as they can dream of.

The only way to fix it is to raise the minimum fitness level, as it is the *bottom* of the fitness barrel that needs to be motivated, not the middle or the top. Probably a different "bona fide occupational requirement" ie a better fitness test for certain trades like the infantry where the case can be clearly made that the current standard is not enough. And an easier system for kicking people out...
Many persons have a wrong idea of what constitutes true happiness. It is not attained through self-gratification, but through fidelity to a worthy purpose.
- Helen Keller

Offline dapaterson

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Myth
  • *
  • 412,400
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 15,693
Re: Armed Forces Consider incentives to keep soldiers fit
« Reply #16 on: April 09, 2014, 19:06:42 »
And an easier system for kicking people out...

DAOD 5019-4.  Follow the steps.
This posting made in accordance with the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, section 2(b):
Everyone has the following fundamental freedoms: freedom of thought, belief, opinion and expression, including freedom of the press and other media of communication
http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/charter/1.html

Online ballz

    ...

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *
  • 107,271
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 2,117
Re: Armed Forces Consider incentives to keep soldiers fit
« Reply #17 on: April 09, 2014, 19:19:02 »
Oh, I'm familiar with it ;)... it is not an easy process though, it can take years and that's why it rarely happens..
Many persons have a wrong idea of what constitutes true happiness. It is not attained through self-gratification, but through fidelity to a worthy purpose.
- Helen Keller

Offline Transporter

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • 7,145
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 297
Re: Armed Forces Consider incentives to keep soldiers fit
« Reply #18 on: April 09, 2014, 19:46:29 »
You can reward fit people all you want, but from what I've seen the fat lazy folks are more than happy to come to work and sit around and do nothing all day. They won't be motivated by a day off, they won't be motivated by a gucci course because they are too lazy to go on it anyway, and they don't care about recognition from the unit because they are happy to stay as a Cpl or MCpl because the responsibility of being in a leadership role also takes more energy than they are comfortable exerting, so being in a rifle company with a med chit so they can't be forced to do PT is about as jammy a go as they can dream of.

The only way to fix it is to raise the minimum fitness level, as it is the *bottom* of the fitness barrel that needs to be motivated, not the middle or the top. Probably a different "bona fide occupational requirement" ie a better fitness test for certain trades like the infantry where the case can be clearly made that the current standard is not enough. And an easier system for kicking people out...

I understand the point you're trying to make, but I think you're over generalizing just a tad. I know some really fit guys who are dumber than a bag of hammers and are quite content to do the bare minimum within their trade. Conversely, I know some minimum-fitness types who are smarter than the leaders who lead them and take pride in the job they do every day. None are in rifle companies though and I do agree that the minimum fitness level could be raised a notch.

Offline donaldk

  • Member
  • ****
  • 4,815
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 100
Re: Armed Forces Consider incentives to keep soldiers fit
« Reply #19 on: April 09, 2014, 20:10:16 »
Oh, I'm familiar with it ;)... it is not an easy process though, it can take years and that's why it rarely happens..

Agreed.  I have a couple very well staffed ARs last fall and still await final dispositions from DMCA 2 & DPM Secur 2.

Online ballz

    ...

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *
  • 107,271
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 2,117
Re: Armed Forces Consider incentives to keep soldiers fit
« Reply #20 on: April 09, 2014, 20:38:52 »
I understand the point you're trying to make, but I think you're over generalizing just a tad. I know some really fit guys who are dumber than a bag of hammers and are quite content to do the bare minimum within their trade. Conversely, I know some minimum-fitness types who are smarter than the leaders who lead them and take pride in the job they do every day. None are in rifle companies though and I do agree that the minimum fitness level could be raised a notch.

Sorry, didn't mean to infer that all overweight people are useless or unintelligent or that all fit people are full of initiative. I'm no athlete myself, not afraid to admit it.

Physically fit pers that are not so sharp and content to do the bare minimum usually still go on field ex's, they still do PT, they still conduct maintenance tasks, etc, and if a Sect Comd tells them do something they do it, although sometimes it requires extra supervision from the SNCOs, but that's their job and they can ensure it gets done despite the pain in the a$$. And if still to no avail, the CoC can use remedial measures and generally speaking it works, or the person is it eventually pushed out.

But with physical fitness, they can play the medical system to their advantage and they often do. Between TCATS, med chits, back on TCATs, etc, they often aren't available for field ex's, they can't do the most basic tasks due to their restrictions, they can't do PT testing, etc. It's not an easy nut to crack. Putting them on IC does not usually result in them getting in shape, it results in them getting more med chits. An even tougher thing to deal with when they are a MCpl or Sgt (don't ask me how) and you have to rely on *them* to get their subordinates to complete something.

This stuff is a common problem in my battalion and I don't think we're the only battalion dealing with it, it's as frustrating as anything else I've encountered.
Many persons have a wrong idea of what constitutes true happiness. It is not attained through self-gratification, but through fidelity to a worthy purpose.
- Helen Keller

Offline DAA

    Administration is not an exact science..

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *
  • 90,490
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 3,281
Re: Armed Forces Consider incentives to keep soldiers fit
« Reply #21 on: April 09, 2014, 20:50:25 »
Sorry, didn't mean to infer that all overweight people are useless or unintelligent or that all fit people are full of initiative. I'm no athlete myself, not afraid to admit it.

This stuff is a common problem in my battalion and I don't think we're the only battalion dealing with it, it's as frustrating as anything else I've encountered.

Keep in mind, that the FORCE Testing is "universal" and applicable to all CF occupations, nothing more.

The problems that you see are more geared to your employment location/occupation and are to be expected.

Not sure just how the respective environments are going to respond but time will tell.
Got a question that you're afraid to ask online?  PM me!  I don't bite........

Online ballz

    ...

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *
  • 107,271
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 2,117
Re: Armed Forces Consider incentives to keep soldiers fit
« Reply #22 on: April 09, 2014, 20:55:20 »
Keep in mind, that the FORCE Testing is "universal" and applicable to all CF occupations, nothing more.

The problems that you see are more geared to your employment location/occupation and are to be expected.

Not sure just how the respective environments are going to respond but time will tell.

Ack, like I said, an argument needs to be made for a higher level of fitness as a bona fide occupational requirement for certain trades.

For the infantry, our brigade is making the BFT as a part of the IBTS so that you still have to do it, but the BFT has been around for a while and it clearly wasn't accomplishing what I'm am advocating for. A BFT with FFO including frag vest and plates, with a 50 lbs ruck, would be a good start.

EDIT: A cardio component added to the FORCE test wouldn't be a bad idea either.
Many persons have a wrong idea of what constitutes true happiness. It is not attained through self-gratification, but through fidelity to a worthy purpose.
- Helen Keller

Offline dapaterson

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Myth
  • *
  • 412,400
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 15,693
Re: Armed Forces Consider incentives to keep soldiers fit
« Reply #23 on: April 09, 2014, 20:58:32 »
It's actually the Army Commander who has directed that the Load Bearing March be introduced into IBTS.
This posting made in accordance with the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, section 2(b):
Everyone has the following fundamental freedoms: freedom of thought, belief, opinion and expression, including freedom of the press and other media of communication
http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/charter/1.html

Offline NFLD Sapper

  • Mentor
  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *
  • 274,081
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 8,971
  • CFSME STAFF
Re: Armed Forces Consider incentives to keep soldiers fit
« Reply #24 on: April 09, 2014, 21:03:45 »
It's actually the Army Commander who has directed that the Load Bearing March be introduced into IBTS.

And that will probably be the first thing dropped form IBTS from some Reserve Units....
CHIMO!
First in, Last out
Sappers Lead the Way

Just tell your wife she owes your life to some Muddy Old Engineer,
Some dusty, crusty, croaking, joking Muddy Old Engineer