Author Topic: Armed Forces Consider incentives to keep soldiers fit  (Read 118733 times)

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Offline Staff Weenie

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Re: Armed Forces Consider incentives to keep soldiers fit
« Reply #50 on: March 31, 2016, 15:37:16 »
I would absolutely love to see how PSP will ensure they cover all of the Reserve units across Canada. I'm in Ottawa, and it's bad enough - we can't get them out on a Saturday to run a FORCE eval for the unit.

We have a couple of Class A members who are trained to run the FORCE eval, but only for potential Recruits, not serving unit members.

Antoher useless Empire is being built by folks that I can replace with a Class A.....

Offline CBH99

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Re: Armed Forces Consider incentives to keep soldiers fit
« Reply #51 on: March 31, 2016, 15:43:24 »
Legitimate question - how are they qualified to run a FORCE test for potential new recruits, but not already sworn members?

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Offline Lumber

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Re: Armed Forces Consider incentives to keep soldiers fit
« Reply #52 on: March 31, 2016, 15:44:28 »
So can you pass all the stations but fail on waist size ?

I sat through one of the presentation with PSP and there were a lot of questions asked.

The standard for "Pass/Fail" is still the same. You cannot fail your FORCE test by having a waste that is too big.

The whole thing is know as the "FORCE Fitness Profile", and it has two components, making up the x and y axis of a graph.

On the Y axis is your Operational Fitness. They could not tell us how the scores are calculated, but each one of the tests is scored out of 100, and your score is also determine by your age group (so a 26 year old getting 35seconds on the rushes will have a different score than a 40 year old with the exact same time). The higher your overall score, the higher on the y-axis you get. As of TODAY, they have determined what the scores for Platinum, Gold, Silver, and Bronze will be. HOWEVER, their intention is that only 50% of the Forces will get Bronze or higher, everyone else will be below that level. SO, if after year one of this system, 65% of the Forces gets Bronze or higher, they will increase the minimum score for Bronze. They will continue to do this each year, and the expectation is that be year 3, roughly half the Forces will get Bronze or higher, and half will not. This does not mean that those below Bronze have "failed", they have simply not achieved any of the incentive levels, and thus get no merit points (or T-Shirts...).

On the X axis is your Health Related Fitness. This is where the waist circumference comes in. They didn't elaborate much on this. I don't know how it's scored, or if they factor anything else like age, height, weight, body type, etc. All I know is that it basically devides the entire graph into three parts. Half the graph is "Low Health-Realted Fitness", one quarter is "Medium Health-Related Fitness", and the far right 25% is "high-health related fitness". The only one that actualyl matters is the Low section, because if you fall in the low section, you aren't elligble for the incentive levels, no matter how well you actually perform on the FORCE test.

Oh by the way, here's a picture!

EDIT: I found the dfit website has a much better graph...

https://dfit-fgc.kinductdev.com/forceprofile

« Last Edit: March 31, 2016, 15:49:17 by Lumber »
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Offline Lumber

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Re: Armed Forces Consider incentives to keep soldiers fit
« Reply #53 on: March 31, 2016, 15:47:08 »
Legitimate question - how are they qualified to run a FORCE test for potential new recruits, but not already sworn members?

Legitimate answer:

For new recruits, the only requirement is that they pass the FORCE test.

For others in the forces (LS/Lt(N) and above), there are merit points at stake. Ergo, they want unbiased, qualified people supervising the test.

FORCE evaluators will still be on hand to help administer the test, but they will be overseen by PSP.

Did I mention they are also going to be using tablets to keep track of scores?
« Last Edit: March 31, 2016, 15:52:25 by Lumber »
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Offline dapaterson

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Re: Armed Forces Consider incentives to keep soldiers fit
« Reply #54 on: March 31, 2016, 15:50:37 »
If the CoC can not be trusted to run fitness tests then the institution failed in selecting them as leaders.
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Offline Lumber

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Re: Armed Forces Consider incentives to keep soldiers fit
« Reply #55 on: March 31, 2016, 15:58:28 »
If the CoC can not be trusted to run fitness tests then the institution failed in selecting them as leaders.

You don't think there a few people out there who would write down a score 2 seconds less than the actual score knowing it would give their buddy who just did the sand bag drag an extra merit point on his PER?
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Offline MJP

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Re: Armed Forces Consider incentives to keep soldiers fit
« Reply #56 on: March 31, 2016, 16:00:00 »
You don't think there a few people out there who wouldn't write down a score 2 seconds less than the actual score knowing it would give their buddy who just did the sand bag drag an extra merit point on his PER?

My PER counts for a bunch of merit points and I trust my CoC to do it properly, same standard should be for PT test.  PSP is a friction point not an enabler.
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Offline dapaterson

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Re: Armed Forces Consider incentives to keep soldiers fit
« Reply #57 on: March 31, 2016, 16:00:44 »
Again, a leadership issue,  not solved with overpaid gym rats.  If the CoC can write PERs, which have a much greater career impact, why can't they evaluate fitness as well?
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Offline Harris

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Re: Armed Forces Consider incentives to keep soldiers fit
« Reply #58 on: March 31, 2016, 16:03:56 »
I would absolutely love to see how PSP will ensure they cover all of the Reserve units across Canada. I'm in Ottawa, and it's bad enough - we can't get them out on a Saturday to run a FORCE eval for the unit.

We have a couple of Class A members who are trained to run the FORCE eval, but only for potential Recruits, not serving unit members.

Antoher useless Empire is being built by folks that I can replace with a Class A.....

Interesting.  I wonder who ordered that?  I just did mine today with my Unit Qual guy (one of three).  They do everyone in the Unit and for many other pers on Camp as well.  No PSP in sight.
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Offline Harris

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Re: Armed Forces Consider incentives to keep soldiers fit
« Reply #59 on: March 31, 2016, 16:07:57 »
You don't think there a few people out there who would write down a score 2 seconds less than the actual score knowing it would give their buddy who just did the sand bag drag an extra merit point on his PER?

And PSP is exempt from this?  Oh I get it, they have no friends.   [Xp
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Todd
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Offline George Wallace

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Re: Armed Forces Consider incentives to keep soldiers fit
« Reply #60 on: March 31, 2016, 16:11:02 »
And PSP is exempt from this?  Oh I get it, they have no friends.   [Xp
[:D
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Offline Lumber

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Re: Armed Forces Consider incentives to keep soldiers fit
« Reply #61 on: March 31, 2016, 16:12:50 »
Interesting.  I wonder who ordered that?  I just did mine today with my Unit Qual guy (one of three).  They do everyone in the Unit and for many other pers on Camp as well.  No PSP in sight.

Apparently it was the Armed Forces Council who decreed that PSP SHALL be present for ALL FORCE test.

Again, a leadership issue,  not solved with overpaid gym rats.  If the CoC can write PERs, which have a much greater career impact, why can't they evaluate fitness as well?

My PER counts for a bunch of merit points and I trust my CoC to do it properly, same standard should be for PT test.  PSP is a friction point not an enabler.

After some introspection, I would like to retract and clarify. The PSP could not tell us WHY the council wanted them at every test. The whole merit thing is just the best reasoning those of us in attendance could come up with at the time.

Please do not take that reasoning, and my statement, as fact.

Thanks.
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Offline ArmyVern

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Re: Armed Forces Consider incentives to keep soldiers fit
« Reply #62 on: March 31, 2016, 16:13:40 »
There is a new CANFORGEN out soon (if not now) with some details.  As of 01 Apr 2016, PSP will supervise all tests for the Reg F; they take on the Res F as well as of 01 Apr 2017.

Don't see the CANFORGEN on the website yet, but I just recd it into my inbox.

Stay tuned for it at this link -  http://vcds.mil.ca/vcds-exec/pubs/default-eng.asp?year=2016&type=active

Interesting to note that Para 5 contains the following statement: 

UNCLAS CANFORGEN 052/16 CMP 031/16

Quote
ALL TESTING FOR THE REGULAR FORCE WILL BE LED
BY PSP FITNESS PERSONNEL
AND SUPPORTED BY UNIT FITNESS EVALUATORS. 
ALL FITNESS EVALUATORS WILL NEED TO REQUALIFY BY 30 JUNE 2016.  THE
FITNESS PROFILE WILL BE IMPLEMENTED FOR THE RESERVE FORCE ON 01
APRIL 2017, UNTIL WHICH TIME RESERVE FORCE PERSONNEL WILL CONTINUE
TO PERFORM THE FORCE EVALUATION AS PER THE FORCE PROGRAM OPERATIONAL
MANUAL

Underlining is mine ref "Regular Force and PSP tested".
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Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Armed Forces Consider incentives to keep soldiers fit
« Reply #63 on: March 31, 2016, 16:26:49 »
Legitimate answer:

For new recruits, the only requirement is that they pass the FORCE test.

For others in the forces (LS/Lt(N) and above), there are merit points at stake. Ergo, they want unbiased, qualified people supervising the test.

FORCE evaluators will still be on hand to help administer the test, but they will be overseen by PSP.

Did I mention they are also going to be using tablets to keep track of scores?

IF we can't trust NCO and Officers to administer a simple goddamn PT test, why are we sending them to do the business with ships, planes, tanks and explosives??

 :facepalm:    FMS
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Offline MCG

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Re: Armed Forces Consider incentives to keep soldiers fit
« Reply #64 on: March 31, 2016, 17:53:57 »
Can't see that flying too far as it distinctly disadvantages the technical trades where pers may be fit and surpass the minimum, but will never be at the higher levels of those for whom the gym is a second home during duty hours. 
The disadvantage will be there when it comes to PER points.  Pers in those trades will not be scored against peers, but against infantrymen of the same age and gender.  And that infantry private who joined at 45?  He is competing for PER points not against his peers but against the brigade superintendent clerk.

We will have successfully taken a system that was scientifically designed to be a defensible requirement in court, and we will have transformed it to a system that again hands out career benefits on a discrimination of age and gender.


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Re: Armed Forces Consider incentives to keep soldiers fit
« Reply #65 on: March 31, 2016, 18:46:26 »
Has anyone ever seen anyone finish the shuttle run in 28 seconds? That's what you need, according to the website, for 100/100. I would assume you'd need to be a NFL defensive back to make that time...

Offline Ostrozac

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Re: Armed Forces Consider incentives to keep soldiers fit
« Reply #66 on: March 31, 2016, 19:54:01 »
Has anyone ever seen anyone finish the shuttle run in 28 seconds? That's what you need, according to the website, for 100/100. I would assume you'd need to be a NFL defensive back to make that time...

Well, the top category (Platinum) is supposedly for the top 0.1%. That's what, about 60 Reg Force personnel? So you're not just looking for CISM Athlete and Assaulter levels of fitness -- you're looking for the top end of CISM Athletes and Assaulters.

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Re: Armed Forces Consider incentives to keep soldiers fit
« Reply #67 on: April 04, 2016, 13:20:20 »
Think i'll just slap the old 1990's Warrior pin on and be done with it! I was much more fit back then anyway!! Never got a gym bag, but crap-tons of blipsters!
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Offline ArmyVern

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Re: Armed Forces Consider incentives to keep soldiers fit
« Reply #68 on: April 04, 2016, 13:23:37 »
...

We will have successfully taken a system that was scientifically designed to be a defensible requirement in court, and we will have transformed it to a system that again hands out career benefits on a discrimination of age and gender.

Absolutely agreed.  Which just reinforces why it will never see a "financial benefit" side to it.  Lawsuits galore just like the BMI days.
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Re: Armed Forces Consider incentives to keep soldiers fit
« Reply #69 on: April 04, 2016, 13:49:50 »
I don't get the point of setting a minimum standard based on job requirements, then getting mad that too many people pass it.

Wouldn't that be the point? to determine that the people you have can do the job?

If the minimum standard doesn't meet that, then raise the minimum standard until it does.

I've got enough on my plate that my 45-60 min of pt is all I have time for.

1- morning prep/breakfast
.5 - commute
1-morning catch up
2.5 - action items
1 - PD while eating lunch
2 - action items
1 - filing
1 - prep for next day/follow up
.5 commute
1 supper
2 time with my kids
1 French lessons
1 PT and shower
2 time with my wife
6.5 sleep

Weekends we go on hikes.

I'm glad some of you have jobs that don't require as much time as mine, but I find it unreasonable that people, who get to live at the gym in the afternoon, are stacking PT requirements against the rest of us who provide support to, or are the people actually doing the day to day work.

If we all take an extra hour to increase the standard, that's an hour less to devote to the job or our families.

I'm working on my waistline, but I've always had a gut. I've always passed every PT requirement provided to me with room to spare.

As long as I meet the PT requirements, am competent in my work, and am medically fit, why does anyone care that I have love handles?

If we want to beef up standards, why not spend more resources on the range? How many people barely pass the PWT 1? There is an area that should really be focused on that has actual applications on the pointy end.


UPDATE:

Ran my last test numbers through the site with my current waist size, I'm a solid silver apparently... out of curiosity I kept upping the waist size to see what a fail was... 121 cm to get into fit but marginal health, and 200cm ( :o) to get to drop out of silver into low health.

I assume that will get updated, I'm working on my waist and I'm no where near 121...
« Last Edit: April 04, 2016, 15:12:25 by c_canuk »
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Re: Armed Forces Consider incentives to keep soldiers fit
« Reply #70 on: April 04, 2016, 14:09:03 »
Dilbert (with only the slightest editing) rules!
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Re: Armed Forces Consider incentives to keep soldiers fit
« Reply #71 on: April 04, 2016, 19:26:45 »
I don't get the point of setting a minimum standard based on job requirements, then getting mad that too many people pass it.

Wouldn't that be the point? to determine that the people you have can do the job?

If the minimum standard doesn't meet that, then raise the minimum standard until it does.

I've got enough on my plate that my 45-60 min of pt is all I have time for.

1- morning prep/breakfast
.5 - commute
1-morning catch up
2.5 - action items
1 - PD while eating lunch
2 - action items
1 - filing
1 - prep for next day/follow up
.5 commute
1 supper
2 time with my kids
1 French lessons
1 PT and shower
2 time with my wife
6.5 sleep

Weekends we go on hikes.

I'm glad some of you have jobs that don't require as much time as mine, but I find it unreasonable that people, who get to live at the gym in the afternoon, are stacking PT requirements against the rest of us who provide support to, or are the people actually doing the day to day work.

If we all take an extra hour to increase the standard, that's an hour less to devote to the job or our families.

I'm working on my waistline, but I've always had a gut. I've always passed every PT requirement provided to me with room to spare.

As long as I meet the PT requirements, am competent in my work, and am medically fit, why does anyone care that I have love handles?

If we want to beef up standards, why not spend more resources on the range? How many people barely pass the PWT 1? There is an area that should really be focused on that has actual applications on the pointy end.


UPDATE:

Ran my last test numbers through the site with my current waist size, I'm a solid silver apparently... out of curiosity I kept upping the waist size to see what a fail was... 121 cm to get into fit but marginal health, and 200cm ( :o) to get to drop out of silver into low health.

I assume that will get updated, I'm working on my waist and I'm no where near 121...

You could have burned off 50 push ups in the time it took to type this note up :)
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Offline cld617

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Re: Armed Forces Consider incentives to keep soldiers fit
« Reply #72 on: April 04, 2016, 20:10:23 »
Has anyone ever seen anyone finish the shuttle run in 28 seconds? That's what you need, according to the website, for 100/100. I would assume you'd need to be a NFL defensive back to make that time...

We have members at my unit who run <30sec rushes, <10sec drags, <40 second sandbag lifts.

Platinum most certainly is not going to obtainable by only 60 members in the forces. I suspect the number to be more like a dozen or so per reasonably sized base, more at the larger army bases and areas with high concentrations of CISM athletes. As someone 3 points from platinum as of my last test if that calculator is to be considered accurate, it's really not as lofty of a goal for young fit pers as one might think. I for one am glad to see a system which rewards hard work, this coming from one of those tech trade members who supposedly isn't gifted with enough time to visit the gym to be competitive.  ::)

I also suspect any sort of incentive of PER points will not be decided on a mbrs position of platinum over gold. If you reach incentive levels, you'll likely be treated similar to anyone else in the incentive program.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2016, 20:21:35 by cld617 »

Offline Bird_Gunner45

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Re: Armed Forces Consider incentives to keep soldiers fit
« Reply #73 on: April 04, 2016, 20:23:24 »
IF we can't trust NCO and Officers to administer a simple goddamn PT test, why are we sending them to do the business with ships, planes, tanks and explosives??

 :facepalm:    FMS

The head of the PSP, a retired armour general (can't recall his name) briefed us on this in Shilo last year. He made it seem like he had personally driven the initiative, so this would appear to be a classic case of empire building.... what would we need the PSP for if we could just do it ourselves? The horror!

Offline BinRat55

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Re: Armed Forces Consider incentives to keep soldiers fit
« Reply #74 on: April 05, 2016, 08:29:43 »
We have members at my unit who run <30sec rushes, <10sec drags, <40 second sandbag lifts.

Platinum most certainly is not going to obtainable by only 60 members in the forces. I suspect the number to be more like a dozen or so per reasonably sized base, more at the larger army bases and areas with high concentrations of CISM athletes. As someone 3 points from platinum as of my last test if that calculator is to be considered accurate, it's really not as lofty of a goal for young fit pers as one might think. I for one am glad to see a system which rewards hard work, this coming from one of those tech trade members who supposedly isn't gifted with enough time to visit the gym to be competitive::)

I also suspect any sort of incentive of PER points will not be decided on a mbrs position of platinum over gold. If you reach incentive levels, you'll likely be treated similar to anyone else in the incentive program.

Lol... Wow! What do you do with the "S" on your chest when you're NOT saving lives? I have to agree with Puck on this one! And you my friend, have absolutely ZERO right to toss that kind of insult to him...
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