Author Topic: Dane's Joining NATO Missile Shield - Aegis for the Huitfeldt's?  (Read 9255 times)

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Online Chris Pook

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Denmark to join NATO missile shield
22. aug. 2014 13.50 English
Minister for Foreign Affairs, Martin Lidegaard (SocLib) and the Minster for Defence, Nicolai Wammen (SocDem) have revealed that one, or possibly a number of the Danish Defence’s frigates will be fitted with a type of radar that will enable Denmark to become part of NATO’s missile shield.
“We have decided to contribute to NATO’s missile defence shield and will take part in preliminary studies with a number of other countries to determine whether one or more of our frigates should be fitted with radar,” said Lidegaard.
Apart from the Red-Green Alliance and the Danish Socialist Peoples’ Party, there was general cross-party support in the Danish parliament for the decision, following a meeting in the Foreign Policy Committee on Thursday evening.
Not directed at Russia
According to the government, it will cost between DKK 400 – 500 million just to equip one frigate to be part of the missile shield.
“It is a big investment, which is why it will feature in the next defence policy agreement. But it is a good way to defend ourselves from missile attack,” Wammen said.
Both ministers emphasised that the current conflict with Russia did not influence the Danish government’s decision to become part of the missile shield.

http://www.dr.dk/Nyheder/Andre_sprog/English/2014/08/22/134841.htm

500 Mio DKK = 100 Mio CAD

I presume that would be to replace the APARS and/or SMART-L with an AN/SPY variant?

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Offline AlexanderM

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Re: Dane's Joining NATO Missile Shield - Aegis for the Huitfeldt's?
« Reply #1 on: August 30, 2014, 19:59:38 »
Those radars, the smart-l and apar, are SUPPOSED to have that capability.  If they aren't performing it might mean that we should go with Aegis.

This indiciates that it's an upgraded version of the Smart-L that is being refered to, as oppoed to changing over the the Aegis system.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Zeven_Provinci%C3%ABn-class_frigate


Specifically, from the article:

The De Zeven Provinciën-class ships will get the new Smart-L mk2 radar that can detect ballistic missiles at a range of 2,000 km (1,200 mi).

This would apply to the Dane's as the ships use the same radar.

« Last Edit: August 30, 2014, 20:56:20 by AlexanderM »

Offline MikeKiloPapa

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Re: Dane's Joining NATO Missile Shield - Aegis for the Huitfeldt's?
« Reply #2 on: September 08, 2014, 02:43:46 »
@Kirkhill

"I presume that would be to replace the APARS and/or SMART-L with an AN/SPY variant?"

Nope its just a (software) upgrade to the SMART-L radar (+minor modifications to APAR IIRC)

SMART-L/APAR already has a limited ABM capability (out to ~600km)
And just to be clear....the APAR/ SMART-L combo is vastly superior to SPY-1D/SPQ-9B , wich only does short range ABM, where as
SMART-L with the new Extended Long Range mode becomes a true Early Warning sensor able to detect and track ballistic missiles
at a range well in excess of 1000 km.

http://www.thales7seas.com/html5_beta/products/570/detect_to_protect_02.pdf

Though by the time you are ready to put a radar on the CSC, both of these radars will be getting old and a newer line of radars will
become available to Canada ( AMDR/SPY-3 or new thales radars )

Online Chris Pook

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Re: Dane's Joining NATO Missile Shield - Aegis for the Huitfeldt's?
« Reply #3 on: September 08, 2014, 09:32:20 »
Thanks for the word MikeKiloPapa. Can we assume that you are in a position to know?  Your point about what will be available once these ships hit the water is well taken.   Especially with Canadian procurement practices.
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Offline AlexanderM

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Re: Dane's Joining NATO Missile Shield - Aegis for the Huitfeldt's?
« Reply #4 on: September 08, 2014, 11:02:10 »
@Kirkhill

"I presume that would be to replace the APARS and/or SMART-L with an AN/SPY variant?"

Nope its just a (software) upgrade to the SMART-L radar (+minor modifications to APAR IIRC)

SMART-L/APAR already has a limited ABM capability (out to ~600km)
And just to be clear....the APAR/ SMART-L combo is vastly superior to SPY-1D/SPQ-9B , wich only does short range ABM, where as
SMART-L with the new Extended Long Range mode becomes a true Early Warning sensor able to detect and track ballistic missiles
at a range well in excess of 1000 km.

http://www.thales7seas.com/html5_beta/products/570/detect_to_protect_02.pdf

Though by the time you are ready to put a radar on the CSC, both of these radars will be getting old and a newer line of radars will
become available to Canada ( AMDR/SPY-3 or new thales radars )
I have read for sometime now that it was all about a software upgrade, but seemed strange that just a software upgrade would cost $100 million.  I doubt the entire Smart-L system new costs $100 million. 

Offline MikeKiloPapa

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Re: Dane's Joining NATO Missile Shield - Aegis for the Huitfeldt's?
« Reply #5 on: September 09, 2014, 02:54:04 »
 
Can we assume that you are in a position to know?

Yep ...being in the RDN ,my info comes straight from the horses mouth (Thales Netherlands)

I have read for sometime now that it was all about a software upgrade, but seemed strange that just a software upgrade would cost $100 million.  I doubt the entire Smart-L system new costs $100 million. 

Well , software development and programming IS ridiculously expensive and time consuming, but i agree that the price is a little steep.
But it includes modifications to both APAR and SMART-L and the Combat Management System (in this case C-FLEX from terma), plus the addition of a S-band uplink (because the existing x band uplink cant communicate with SM-3 ).

I doubt the entire Smart-L system new costs $100 million.

It doesn't.......the project cost for the 3 frigates was about 1 billion CAD , and of those, the complete AAW system from thales accounted for ~350 million CAD ( 35%) , so 115-120 million CAD per ship for APAR and SMART-L .







Online Chris Pook

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Re: Dane's Joining NATO Missile Shield - Aegis for the Huitfeldt's?
« Reply #6 on: September 09, 2014, 10:00:44 »
Thanks again. :)
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Offline MikeKiloPapa

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Re: Dane's Joining NATO Missile Shield - Aegis for the Huitfeldt's?
« Reply #7 on: September 20, 2014, 08:19:49 »
After a little digging , it seems there is in fact two different upgrade paths for SMART-L ....The software only ELR mod,.... and a new upgrade called EWC   
(Early Warning Capability) , which involves both software modifications as well as replacing  of antenna modules, in effect transforming it into a state of the art AESA radar :

http://vanguardcanada.uberflip.com/i/274231/40








Offline AlexanderM

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Re: Dane's Joining NATO Missile Shield - Aegis for the Huitfeldt's?
« Reply #8 on: September 20, 2014, 12:49:15 »
After a little digging , it seems there is in fact two different upgrade paths for SMART-L ....The software only ELR mod,.... and a new upgrade called EWC   
(Early Warning Capability) , which involves both software modifications as well as replacing  of antenna modules, in effect transforming it into a state of the art AESA radar :

http://vanguardcanada.uberflip.com/i/274231/40
Now we're talking!

Online Chris Pook

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Re: Dane's Joining NATO Missile Shield - Aegis for the Huitfeldt's?
« Reply #9 on: December 09, 2014, 23:17:18 »
More background on the Huitfeldts, confirming the $313,000,000 per unit price tag

http://www.aspistrategist.org.au/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/OMT-Dansh-Frigate-Programme-April-2014.pdf

And this one is by the Danish Navy's project manager.

http://www.ndia.org/Divisions/Divisions/International/Documents/U.S.-Denmark%20Defense%20Industry%20Seminar/Danish%20frigate%20program%20visit%20USN%20May%202014.pdf

Here is a really curious take-away

"Maximum project manning 100 engineers, officers and skilled workers in 2012 and 2013 - all in all"

RCN briefed in July 2013 and February 2014

Edit:

And here's another powerpoint by Hesselberg

https://www.navalengineers.org/ProceedingsDocs/ASNEDay2013/Hesselberg.pdf



« Last Edit: December 09, 2014, 23:35:52 by Kirkhill »
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Offline MikeKiloPapa

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Re: Dane's Joining NATO Missile Shield - Aegis for the Huitfeldt's?
« Reply #10 on: December 14, 2014, 07:54:59 »
I'm surprised, and frankly a little annoyed, that they are still peddling the $310-330M number for these ships, knowing full well that is not their real cost,.... not for Denmark, and
certainly not for anybody else either.

Its simply not a realistic price for vessels of this size and capability. And in fact its pretty easy to debunk it :

First there is the cost of reused weapons and equipment, which amounts to ~$70M a ship.
Secondly,  pretty much all weapons,systems and sensor integration, plus final fitout has been carried out by the RDN itself, and as such is NOT accounted for in the oft qouted price.
Thirdly...that price doesnt include the missiles and weapons systems intended for the Huitfeldts final configuration either.

In short ...on top of the $310-330 million one needs to at least add :
$70ish milion for reused items
$25-50M for a 5" mk45 mod 4 ( seen both numbers qouted,...50 million seems a little high though?)
$10ish million for a 35 mm Millennium CIWS
~$30-40M for 32 SM-2 III A's. ( 4-5 times that number if one goes for SM-6 instead )
Unknown integration costs

All in all roughly $500-550 million for a fully fitted out Iver Huitfeldt class frigate,... a much more realistic price, but still a bargain compared to other ships of similar size and capability .....which makes me wonder if this persistant lowballing is a piece of deliberate obfuscation on part of OMT/Naval Team Denmark/ RDN ?, perhaps  an attemp at psyching out the competition (notably DCNS ) ?




Offline Spencer100

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Re: Dane's Joining NATO Missile Shield - Aegis for the Huitfeldt's?
« Reply #11 on: December 16, 2014, 14:58:00 »
If anyone is interested here is a great look at the ships.  A lot of pitcures

http://intercepts.defensenews.com/2014/11/sleek-modern-and-built-on-a-budget-denmarks-latest-frigate/


Offline MikeKiloPapa

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