Author Topic: I feel like I am crazy - VP related  (Read 17356 times)

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Offline ixium

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I feel like I am crazy - VP related
« on: November 19, 2014, 13:00:11 »
There is an issue at work. It seems like the stupidest thing in the world. But it is actually an issue that someone wastes their time on.

When talking on the radio (specifically HF if that matters at all, which I know it doesn't) what is the response to:

Any traffic for me?

No traffic for you at this time
or
Negative traffic for you at this time

I've always said it the second way, and for years and it has never been an issue. In the ACP125 is has in the box beside NEGATIVE it says "No. "In any NATO standard document it says the same information.

I literally got the response "I'm the senior radop here and I make the decisions" for the explanation as to why it must be done. Then tried to say that NEGATIVE is a proword and that is why it isn't used. And in the same breath told me you can't say "correction" on an ARTY net.

I could even use the argument that with shitty comes "negative" is easier to understand than "no" as that short word could be scrambled or not sound as clear in some situations.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2014, 13:06:35 by ixium »

Offline George Wallace

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Re: I feel like I am crazy - VP related
« Reply #1 on: November 19, 2014, 13:06:56 »
Would the response then be:

"Positive traffic for you at this time."  if there was traffic for them?

Next question:

Why would anyone be asking if there is any traffic for them on a Net?  They should be monitoring the Net.

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Offline ixium

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Re: I feel like I am crazy - VP related
« Reply #2 on: November 19, 2014, 13:19:30 »
I would just pass the traffic, or say standby for traffic.

It's for planes, they don't really monitor the whole time they are up and just do hourly check-ins.

All the pilots also use negative in the same situations, so this isn't the "oh it is just silly airforce" thing.

Edit: I'm not saying that I must be right, I like to just be able to understand reasonings for minor things. Obviously it's part of my job to do what I'm told but I'm not going to not ask questions on things that seem silly like this.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2014, 13:23:01 by ixium »

Offline c_canuk

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Re: I feel like I am crazy - VP related
« Reply #3 on: November 19, 2014, 14:30:10 »
Iirc, from what I was taught in 99, that although down south they use positive/negative, we aren't really supposed to because the meat of the words are the same:

Pos-i-tive

vs

Neg-i-tive.

2 out of 3 syllables are the same, which could in theory cause confusion.

Also consider that Yes and No are single syllable words, and thus take only 1/3rd the time to tx them, brevity being key.

In reality I don't think it makes much difference, since everyone knows what is intended.

Outside of Sigs, VP as per the ACP125 seems to be more of a suggestion and different trades have different styles that work for them.
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Offline George Wallace

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Re: I feel like I am crazy - VP related
« Reply #4 on: November 19, 2014, 15:06:41 »
Outside of Sigs, VP as per the ACP125 seems to be more of a suggestion and different trades have different styles that work for them.

Hate to say it, but some of the worse VP I have ever heard has been made by Sigs.  Even when corrected from across the floor of the CP, their arrogance was insulting. 
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Offline recceguy

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Re: I feel like I am crazy - VP related
« Reply #5 on: November 19, 2014, 15:35:35 »
I had one arguing over the air with me that Roger, Over was not a proper response to a radio check. ::)
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Offline Loachman

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Re: I feel like I am crazy - VP related
« Reply #6 on: November 19, 2014, 16:25:21 »
All the pilots also use negative

I'm a Pilot, and I've never used "negative" on any radio, because:

Yes and No are single syllable words, and thus take only 1/3rd the time to tx them, brevity being key.

Never use a big word when a diminutive one will do.

I've always favoured plain English over jargon and faddish buzzwords and cliches. When I become God-Emperor, use of "transition", especially in the place of a real verb, will carry the death penalty.

Hate to say it, but some of the worse VP I have ever heard has been made by Sigs.  Even when corrected from across the floor of the CP, their arrogance was insulting.

And the best, in my experience, was always Armoured Recce (except then-Major Rick Hillier's Brit 2IC who, while highly entertaining, was a Soviet EW guy's wet dream), with Arty as a close second.

Offline Not a Sig Op

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Re: I feel like I am crazy - VP related
« Reply #7 on: November 19, 2014, 17:41:50 »
Negative is not a pro-word.

There's no more to it than that.

Whenever people start using radios, they try to sound all radioee (100% genuine real term for it). This often results in a mixture of genuine pro-words, stuff they heard in movies, and random trucker CB talk.

Clarity is the most important factor when using a radio, followed by brevity.

Crap like "be advised", "call me via lima-lima" and other nonsense are just that, nonsense.

"Negative" and "positive" are neither correct pro-words, nor are they wrong to use. They are however, longer than required, and less clear than "yes" and "no".

Also, recceguy. you can tell him to shove section 308 up his ***, as it clearly states that "roger" is an acceptable alternative in lieu of strength and readability when the reception is loud and clear.

Source: I kept a copy of ACP-125C in my bathroom for reading for many years.
Remember troops, the minimum acceptable standard is still an acceptable standard.

Offline ixium

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Re: I feel like I am crazy - VP related
« Reply #8 on: November 19, 2014, 17:53:20 »
I understand the single syllable argument. On perfect comms it could even be better.

But when you're dealing with planes that are half way around the world talking on the radio isn't the clearest.
Even today, when told to stop using the word "negative" I started getting the response "confirm NO traffic" with emphasis on the "No" part. If 3 of the 5 times I had to re-confirm then the saving time and brevity argument goes out the window.

I've rarely (never say never...) had that response saying "negative traffic"

@Loachman, you're right I shouldn't have said all of them use that, but I'd for sure say that I've heard it more often.

@c_canuk, I'd agree with the USA/CAN argument if I didn't answer radio checks with 5x5 every day, and a million other "Americanisms" that are used.

Even when I was at 1 Brigade at HQ & Sigs and a couple of the out units I don't think I heard the word "no" used much, it was usually "0 this is 11 - negative - over"

Offline Not a Sig Op

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Re: I feel like I am crazy - VP related
« Reply #9 on: November 19, 2014, 17:57:33 »
Just because more than one person is doing it wrong doesn't mean it's not wrong.
Remember troops, the minimum acceptable standard is still an acceptable standard.

Offline Old and Tired

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Re: I feel like I am crazy - VP related
« Reply #10 on: November 19, 2014, 18:47:22 »
As to the original question, it's a bad habit carry over from the das when we did mixed traffic nets on HF. we would run Voice/CW/CRTTZ all on a common freq as a "Directed Net".  I don't have my Q and Z signal book handy but that's where it started.  The NCS directed the net would ask each station in turn if the had traffic to pass.  The answer would be either AFFIRMATIVE or NEGATIVE, if voice, the Appropriate Q or Z signal if MORSE or RTT.

Operating on a VHF radio with Squelch Noise filters a simple yes or no is entirely acceptable.  The Aim is always Clarity, then Brevity of the Message.  Some of the older members here would probably remember some of the Brevity Codes that we used to use.  No Security at all just meant to speed things up as we all new what a give code meant.  The same applies to "ROGER'" to answer a R/C.  It's perfectly acceptable.  ACP-125 even says this.

Sigs are, quite possibly, the absolute worst offenders when it comes to VP.  Tankers/Crewman are generally about the best I've heard in over thirty years as a Sig for generic radio traffic.  Gunners are really good as well, and when conducting Fire Missions either on the FSCC net or Regt Ring Nets, they are truly impressive for the speed and accuracy of what they do.
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Offline Flatliner

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Re: I feel like I am crazy - VP related
« Reply #11 on: November 19, 2014, 20:28:54 »
Just because more than one person is doing it wrong doesn't mean it's not wrong.


I feel like this statement can be used in so many different parts of life. Well put.

Offline Occam

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Re: I feel like I am crazy - VP related
« Reply #12 on: November 19, 2014, 21:01:19 »
Coming at things from the Navy side of the house (and my experience is a little stale), the whole idea of a NCS asking members of a voice net if they have traffic is a completely unnecessary voice transmission.  If I'm a member of the net, I'll call the NCS and tell them I have traffic to send, otherwise the net is silent. 

Same went for RATT.  Do up a call tape to the shore station, "CFH DE CYWM ZPR 2P R K".  Shore station responds "CYWM DE CFH ZBZ4 ZAI4 K" (your printability is good, send your traffic).

Offline Brasidas

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Re: I feel like I am crazy - VP related
« Reply #13 on: November 20, 2014, 07:41:51 »
Why would anyone be asking if there is any traffic for them on a Net?  They should be monitoring the Net.

Coming at things from the Navy side of the house (and my experience is a little stale), the whole idea of a NCS asking members of a voice net if they have traffic is a completely unnecessary voice transmission.  If I'm a member of the net, I'll call the NCS and tell them I have traffic to send, otherwise the net is silent. 

Units on the move where comms on the move is impractical. HF rear-link might have great comms with Winnipeg, but fair at best with a forward group of LOSVs'138 manpack during a halt. Yes, they'll be doing a radio check, but I see nothing wrong with them jiggling the 3am relief operator's arm to make sure they remember to pass on outstanding messages that the CP's been trying to push to them. That 3am operator may not be sharp enough to remember his changeover brief. 

Offline Not a Sig Op

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Re: I feel like I am crazy - VP related
« Reply #14 on: November 20, 2014, 08:11:14 »
"Directed net"
Remember troops, the minimum acceptable standard is still an acceptable standard.

Offline Loachman

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Re: I feel like I am crazy - VP related
« Reply #15 on: November 20, 2014, 12:26:27 »
Sigs are, quite possibly, the absolute worst offenders when it comes to VP.

I'd say second-worst, to Tac Hel Pilots since we lost the Kiowa.

There was a huge difference between the Kiowa and Slug (Twin Huey) sub-communities even then. We worked with Recce and Arty lots and had pride (the original definition of that word, not the current "progressive" colloquiallism). The slug guys drove bus routes and treated radios like an audio version of Facebook.

Offline Greymatters

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Re: I feel like I am crazy - VP related
« Reply #16 on: November 20, 2014, 12:54:18 »
In theory, it doesnt matter whether you yourself are saying 'no' or 'negative' - what matters is what is everyone else saying in your net?  Everyone should be using the same words, so that an opposing force monitoring your net doesnt hear the word 'negative' and use it as an intelligence indicator; i.e. that guy who says 'negative' all the time is associated with Unit x.






Offline George Wallace

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Re: I feel like I am crazy - VP related
« Reply #17 on: November 20, 2014, 13:00:18 »
In theory, it doesnt matter whether you yourself are saying 'no' or 'negative' - what matters is what is everyone else saying in your net?  Everyone should be using the same words, so that an opposing force monitoring your net doesnt hear the word 'negative' and use it as an intelligence indicator; i.e. that guy who says 'negative' all the time is associated with Unit x.

Wow!  You just dated yourself.   >:D
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Offline Greymatters

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Re: I feel like I am crazy - VP related
« Reply #18 on: November 20, 2014, 13:03:44 »
Surprisingly, the concept is still out there in some handbooks; I'll have to see if I can find a recent example.


Offline George Wallace

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Re: I feel like I am crazy - VP related
« Reply #19 on: November 20, 2014, 13:08:28 »
Oh.  I know exactly what you are talking about.  I think that once we got Freq Hopping and Crypto (capability integrally installed on all sets) the fear of many newer members that their VP could be used against them disappeared.   

Example:

LdSH(RC) CP operators commonly used the terms "Sun Up" and "Sun Down" to indicate to all on the Net that the CO was in or out of the CP. 
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Offline Greymatters

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Re: I feel like I am crazy - VP related
« Reply #20 on: November 20, 2014, 13:10:22 »
Oh, I remember one; during a strike monitoring contract three years ago, we got the lecture at the start on 'uniformity of language' on the comms net from the boss of the operation; members of the operation came from military, police, and private security backgrounds and all had different procedures; however, it was more about professionalism as the client was monitoring our comms, not so much the strikers monitoring our comms; the boss was an old dog too.

Offline Greymatters

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Re: I feel like I am crazy - VP related
« Reply #21 on: November 20, 2014, 13:13:35 »
LdSH(RC) CP operators commonly used the terms "Sun Up" and "Sun Down" to indicate to all on the Net that the CO was in or out of the CP.

A unique one I recall was 'stars and bars online', meaning a high-ranking officer was listening in to the conversation and we should cut down on the humor any unprofessional comments.

Offline Shamrock

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Re: I feel like I am crazy - VP related
« Reply #22 on: November 20, 2014, 13:55:18 »
Is there a manual for text procedure via that IRC program we use?

Offline PuckChaser

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Re: I feel like I am crazy - VP related
« Reply #23 on: November 20, 2014, 15:35:48 »
Is there a manual for text procedure via that IRC program we use?

Transverse? I doubt it, other than unit-level SOPs. Our NDSIs were effective 1999 and still reference magnetic tapes.... we'll see a transverse SOP in 2050.

Offline Shamrock

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Re: I feel like I am crazy - VP related
« Reply #24 on: November 20, 2014, 15:44:44 »
So... in keeping up the spirit, a thumbs down smiley is the most economical way to communicate no/negative

 >:D
« Last Edit: November 20, 2014, 16:50:13 by Shamrock »