Author Topic: On 202 Workshop: inefficiencies and underperformance  (Read 14872 times)

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Offline upandatom

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On 202 Workshop: inefficiencies and underperformance
« on: April 07, 2015, 09:03:01 »
Someone's not a fan of Calian?

Calian for POET was great, most were former military and understood the game. Training wise for Courses I do not mind Calian, most are retired, or Med release members that know and understand the inner workings.

I'm not a fan of the Civilian employees like the ones in the 202 DA. Im not a fan of Military members being able to create civilian positions customized to themselves in High Op Tempo units, I can name two right off the bat in one High Tempo units that have done it in the past 5 years.

Fact is The CAF is a Military Organization. Why are Civilians with ZERO military experience being put into leadership positions with High Income Salaries (the "OC" in 202 makes near 90-100k a year). I am totally understanding of the expertise that some of these people have. However I have worked with them.
When their outright laziness, their holier then thou attitude gets in the way. We need to show them the door. When Military members are treated like second class citizens and are hand washing equipment weeks on end "B!tch" boys in a MILITARY unit by Civilians something is wrong.

It had eventually worn down to the point that when a military member had a medical/dental appt. The member would have to stay late to do gain the man hours back.

I have worked with good and bad civilians, 202 was by far the worst, with several good ones in that unit.

I had some great experiences in the CAF, and 202 just killed it for me. The amount of "Bloat" there is one place to start.
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Offline George Wallace

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Re: On 202 Workshop: inefficiencies and underperformance
« Reply #1 on: April 07, 2015, 09:14:48 »
Calian for POET was great, most were former military and understood the game. Training wise for Courses I do not mind Calian, most are retired, or Med release members that know and understand the inner workings.

I'm not a fan of the Civilian employees like the ones in the 202 DA. Im not a fan of Military members being able to create civilian positions customized to themselves in High Op Tempo units, I can name two right off the bat in one High Tempo units that have done it in the past 5 years.

Fact is The CAF is a Military Organization. Why are Civilians with ZERO military experience being put into leadership positions with High Income Salaries (the "OC" in 202 makes near 90-100k a year). I am totally understanding of the expertise that some of these people have. However I have worked with them.
When their outright laziness, their holier then thou attitude gets in the way. We need to show them the door. When Military members are treated like second class citizens and are hand washing equipment weeks on end "B!tch" boys in a MILITARY unit by Civilians something is wrong.

It had eventually worn down to the point that when a military member had a medical/dental appt. The member would have to stay late to do gain the man hours back.

I have worked with good and bad civilians, 202 was by far the worst, with several good ones in that unit.

I had some great experiences in the CAF, and 202 just killed it for me. The amount of "Bloat" there is one place to start.

Thank you for your first hand experience and comments about 202.

In the Mid '80s we sent tanks to 202 with new parts and track and got back 'junk'.  One powerpack came back with only one inch of metal holding the engine to the transmission and daylight showing between the two, when the Maintainers pulled the pack for their acceptance inspection.  Not to mention the rusty old track on the vehicle.  It seemed that the tanks were coming back in worse condition than they left, with only a new paint job to prove they had gone in to 202.  All respect for 202 and anything 202 was lost that day.
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Offline Sheep Dog AT

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Re: On 202 Workshop: inefficiencies and underperformance
« Reply #2 on: April 07, 2015, 09:16:27 »
What or who exactly is 202?
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Offline Chris Pook

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Re: On 202 Workshop: inefficiencies and underperformance
« Reply #3 on: April 07, 2015, 09:17:59 »
Could 202 be outsourced?

You have new LAVs built in London.  You have LAVs being reset in Edmonton.  You have Rheinmetall in Quebec.  You have DEW - who rebuilt the TLAVs, Grizzlies and Bisons in New Brunswick.  Don't they all have the same capabilities as 202?

Not picking on 202 but it is kind of a poster boy for the discussion on where, when and how you can integrate civilians into the supply chain.
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Offline Hamish Seggie

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Re: On 202 Workshop: inefficiencies and underperformance
« Reply #4 on: April 07, 2015, 09:24:33 »
What or who exactly is 202?

202 Workshops. It's a third? Line maintenance facility affectionately know to RCEME soldiers as 202 Paintshop.
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Offline Sheep Dog AT

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Re: On 202 Workshop: inefficiencies and underperformance
« Reply #5 on: April 07, 2015, 09:26:15 »
Ahh gotcha.
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Offline upandatom

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Re: On 202 Workshop: inefficiencies and underperformance
« Reply #6 on: April 07, 2015, 09:38:03 »
Thank you for your first hand experience and comments about 202.

In the Mid '80s we sent tanks to 202 with new parts and track and got back 'junk'.  One powerpack came back with only one inch of metal holding the engine to the transmission and daylight showing between the two, when the Maintainers pulled the pack for their acceptance inspection.  Not to mention the rusty old track on the vehicle.  It seemed that the tanks were coming back in worse condition than they left, with only a new paint job to prove they had gone in to 202.  All respect for 202 and anything 202 was lost that day.

Rarely we agree GW, There is no accountability there. The contractors, do the bare minimum. The full time employees, bypass the 3 month probation due to passing it with their contract work.
Even when a vehicle goes from one unit (the LAnd unit, the deployable vehicles unit) to 202 and back the original Veh Techs and Comm Techs have to REDO the work of the 202 pers to ensure serviceability.
The testing is bogus, the QC and QA is a joke. Very little of the equipment is actually tested and made serviceable for how the CAF uses it.
ITs tested according to the manuals. The "Experts" in house dont go to the units, they have no clue how its used and abused by the units that actually use the kit.
Explain how these experts determine that a piece of kit is useable for domestic or international ops.
Saying that, the military members there, they do care about the kit they work on, many do understand that the possibility lives are on the line for the maintenance and repair of the kit are completed, mostly because they have deployed with that kit.

Here is a quick story-
I was placed in charge of a section, they were doing retrofits, and the gear inside needed to be tested, and oddly enough they had no set procedure. I brought in a standardized way of testing, ensured EVERY piece of kit, every wire was serviceable and it created accountability. They realised it was actual work, but not hard work, you could have a vehicle done a day, which was faster then how they were doing it to begin with. (they would take a week per vehicle, or piss around waiting on "parts" from another section in house to stretch it out).
Two days later I was removed from the position and put into a corner. The civilian employees bitched to the union and it went up.

202 works close with Rheinmetall, as a matter of fact they just gave a bunch of bays to them I think to complete upgrades.
PArts of 202 can easily be outsourced, with a skeleton crew of SNCO keeping an eye on the EME side.
As for the sigs side, its a waste of effin money. BLEEDING MONEY. They do an odd upgrade once in a while on comms gear, (the Gun speakers), 95% of the "3rd" line repairs can actually be done in the unit. The upgrades can be pushed out via tech specs to units to do the upgrade themselves.
In essence, you have created a ball and chain on the LCMMs legs, they cant do their job properly. They get fed BS from the workers at 202, to the point that if your a military member, and your civilian CoC finds out about you talking to LCMMs you get in crap.

I have brought this up to respective personnel, I have done a thorough AAR, and review of procedure for it.

I dont think 202 needs to be axed completely, just a major cleanup. (also the reasoning for it being on the Island now is Mute, why is it still their on Expensive land?)
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Offline Colin P

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Re: On 202 Workshop: inefficiencies and underperformance
« Reply #7 on: April 07, 2015, 10:18:29 »
At least they are consistent, we bitched about them in the 80's, received a howitzer from them that had a recoil failure. I got to help the gun techs in Shilo strip it down, metal shavings in the recoil system caused gouges in the walls. 

Offline Sheep Dog AT

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Re: On 202 Workshop: inefficiencies and underperformance
« Reply #8 on: April 07, 2015, 10:26:50 »
So who is their saviour?
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Offline George Wallace

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Re: On 202 Workshop: inefficiencies and underperformance
« Reply #9 on: April 07, 2015, 10:44:03 »
So who is their saviour?

Not the Union.
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Offline upandatom

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Re: On 202 Workshop: inefficiencies and underperformance
« Reply #10 on: April 07, 2015, 12:30:24 »
The idea behind 202 is a great one.
Take out the cost of shipping equipment around the country. (I was an advocate for a 202 out west as well). It could work, and be beneficial and not the money pit it is today.

From the comms side, I witnessed members doing the exact same repairs etc in house at the units. Even Installs and VIs were done in house.

A major part of the problem is the make work project created post afghan. the refurb of the kit, needed to be done, Good. Get it done. Do not however spend 3 of the 4 hours per piece of kit you are allotted to spend cleaning the damn thing and not verifying its serviceability. When it hits that 4 hours on that kit they turn around and label it BER. Without even testing it.  It is written into their docs to Clean and then test. Not test and then clean. If it works, it should be cleaned and placed back into the system. Not just labelled BER, returned to the depot, and then returned to 202 at a later date to do the exact same trip.

(4 hours is an example, I remember seeing you get 1 hr per antenna, that is clean, test, tag etc)

Ill probably get a nastygram for posting this, Although I was always vocal about bringing it up my CoC and even when I left I provided the right people with this information.
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Offline George Wallace

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Re: On 202 Workshop: inefficiencies and underperformance
« Reply #11 on: April 07, 2015, 14:03:39 »
Sometimes it takes something like this to make them "get off the pot".
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Offline upandatom

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Re: On 202 Workshop: inefficiencies and underperformance
« Reply #12 on: April 08, 2015, 11:57:18 »
Sometimes it takes something like this to make them "get off the pot".

Even then,
Civilian management has their hand so far up ADM MATs arse they are checking their molars. Unions are pretty entrenched there. It is a difficult situation. The Federal government pulls several hundred jobs from a piss poor area of Montreal on the Island, you end up with the whole eastern side of Montreal Island pissed off at the current federal government. Even more so if that gets moved to another central location. It would be a decade before any real change is made.

There isnt a logical reason for keeping that unit there any more. The Dock yard is not used anywhere near as much as it was, most equipment from west is transported in via rail. So the vehicles have to get transported from south shore to 202 on the island.

Oddly enough my biggest pet peeve and what drove me furious there had nothing to do with the quality of work, or the ignorance.

It had to do with one Mens Dinner/Christmas Dinner/Soldiers Dinner/Festive Dinner or whatever you may call it now.
We lined up (if you can call it that) made our way in, passed the greeting line, and shortly after that is the Table of the missing soldier, the empty chair with boots, with food already on it. Their is no order to how or where the civilians sit, they yell, they wander, they leave for smokes, bathroom. The CO attempts to gain control and deliver speech, no one is listening, yelling or talking louder over top of the CO, or even wandering over to the table of the missing soldier, grabbing food off the plate,(the nuts or the cocktail there) and moving back to their chair and sitting down.
Absolute disgregard. Then the civilian management comes over and informs the military personnel to return to work, ok I get it, work needs to be done, sure. Most return to work, and low and behold no civilians show up. They all buggered off.

At that point I gave up all hope, alot of personnel did, we had a fair amount of young reservists working with us that were shown the absolute wrong way for a military tradition.

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Offline George Wallace

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Re: On 202 Workshop: inefficiencies and underperformance
« Reply #13 on: April 08, 2015, 12:18:07 »
Only thing I can think of after reading that is that the Government do as the Irving Company does.  The employees toe the line, or they pull the plug. 

I returned to Pet after ten or so years in Gagetown.  I saw how the Irving Companies operated.  They bought properties, but did not sell them, keeping prime real estate in their control.  If one of their operations had a Strike, they closed that operation.  No negotiations.  When Canada Splint in Pembroke, an Irving company, went on strike, the workers did not realize that they had just put their jobs on  the line.  Irving simply closed the mill.  They kept the prime real estate in the center of town, and tore down the mill. 

Perhaps the Government should take some lessons from the Irvings.   >:D                                        :dunno:





I know that would raise quite the stink and not be a wise political move, even if it may be necessary to clean up the operations there.
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Offline MCG

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Re: On 202 Workshop: inefficiencies and underperformance
« Reply #14 on: April 08, 2015, 12:47:28 »
Could 202 be outsourced?

...

Not picking on 202 but it is kind of a poster boy for the discussion on where, when and how you can integrate civilians into the supply chain.
In the late '90s, it was one of the areas for ASD & MEO efficiencies.  It is also very much an example of civilians integrated into our sustainment system - it is full of public servants.

You have new LAVs built in London.  You have LAVs being reset in Edmonton.  You have Rheinmetall in Quebec.  You have DEW - who rebuilt the TLAVs, Grizzlies and Bisons in New Brunswick.  Don't they all have the same capabilities as 202?
202 offers a few advantages that we cannot get outside. 

Commercial maintenance facilities are first come, first serve.  There is no queue jumping unless, maybe, you are the dominant customer.  Out west, MSVS can spend a lot of time sitting in a service providers lot waiting for their turn beside all the oil and forest industry equipment.  When DND owns the shop, then we can dictate efforts according to operational priorities.

Some of our equipment is so old, replacement parts need to be custom manufactured.  LCMMs do look at the costs and then either allow units to contract locally or the job can be sent to 202. 

Sometimes, we own the rights to tinker with the intellectual property (IP) of our equipment but we cannot extend that right via contract to a third party.  202 lets us do this in-house, playing "monster garage" to modify Leopard 1 mineploughs to make paths fit for Leopard 2 or to mate mine rollers on a tank that was never designed to take them. 

When Canada bought German EOD robots and tried to charge them from within US MRAPs, the two systems did not get along and the MRAP power source was force off. In under two days and at a much reduced cost than paying the OEMs to do the systems integration, 202 found a solution and developed a fleet wide modification package.

And of course, the obvious military requirement: 202 force generates the nucleus of technical maintenance teams which deploy into operations for mission enabling equipment modifications and improvements.   

Offline upandatom

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Re: On 202 Workshop: inefficiencies and underperformance
« Reply #15 on: April 08, 2015, 14:00:32 »
And of course, the obvious military requirement: 202 force generates the nucleus of technical maintenance teams which deploy into operations for mission enabling equipment modifications and improvements.

I find this a mute point, the pers that were deployed from there, (Mostly Officers) were not SMEs.

Alot has to be said about being able to rely on your people, your techs, whether they are comms, veh, mat, egs, eds, or eo. Trust them, give them the power to do as you have trained them.

The wasted finances at 202 are astronomical. Its one thing to see actual product coming from there (which is Sub Par at best), seeing what comes out. and then comparing it to the price tag that is actually present.
Yes finding a shop to do the work 202 does for custom parts, yes that can be a long and painstaking process. It will give an out, and have the actual accountability to get work done right and on time. Setting strict guidelines for completing projects on time that would have financial consequences companies would fall in line.

I fully understand the need for IP rights, as well as security reasons. However, If you give the precise requirements for parts, with the specifications and tolerances, you have no reason to tell the 3rd party why they are making it.

OR

Actually use your members?
Im sorry but spending money to train your people to a certain level, and then have them sent to some closet somewhere and twiddle their thumbs because they are taking work away from union workers is bs. 

I have not once said I don't agree with what 202 COULD potentially accomplish , I think its something that has gone wrong, and the LCMMs are being fed BS costs as to what actually gets fixed, and gets scrapped and why the pieces are scrapped. I am sure that if they knew CIs were getting BER/BLR and sent to scrap for have a crack in the casing that in no way effects performance of the kit, or the integrity(EMSEC, or power) of it they would be astounded.



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Offline MCG

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Re: On 202 Workshop: inefficiencies and underperformance
« Reply #16 on: April 08, 2015, 14:20:02 »
CRS report on 202 Workshop:  http://www.crs.forces.gc.ca/reports-rapports/pdf/2007/P0675-eng.pdf

The analysis appears to have been gentle. 

Offline upandatom

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Re: On 202 Workshop: inefficiencies and underperformance
« Reply #17 on: April 08, 2015, 15:21:51 »
CRS report on 202 Workshop:  http://www.crs.forces.gc.ca/reports-rapports/pdf/2007/P0675-eng.pdf

The analysis appears to have been gentle.

2007- a bit old, when the ratio of Military to civilian was a lot closer together, and the information that they would collect for the two years is only as legitimate as the people putting it into the system.

ITs a good report non the less, when money was at its peak during Afghanistan.

Does it take into account that BER/BLR may not be a considered a loss? that it gets put back into the supply system, and returned for repairs at a later date?

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Offline Kat Stevens

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Re: On 202 Workshop: inefficiencies and underperformance
« Reply #18 on: April 08, 2015, 16:09:21 »
Ah yes, 202 Paint Shop and AVLB bridge quarters that were all supposed to roll through there for refurb on their way to units when Germany closed.  Half of them were missing pins on the pin rack and two of them had no bearing cups installed.
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Offline Bruce Monkhouse

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Re: On 202 Workshop: inefficiencies and underperformance
« Reply #19 on: April 08, 2015, 17:42:52 »
Unions

At that point I gave up all hope,

Again, for the 1,456th time..................a strong Union results because of wishy-washy management..............full stop.
I'm a Union guy and I have no power except what we can wrangle at bargaining time, if management [in this case the military] just keeps caving, or "giving up all hope", then who's fault is that?
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Offline George Wallace

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Re: On 202 Workshop: inefficiencies and underperformance
« Reply #20 on: April 08, 2015, 17:50:14 »
Bruce.  Not to argue with you, but I have formed an opinion that some Unions are good Unions who are working hard for their membership; while some Unions are not, working only to benefit and profit the Union leaders, or working solely to create a work place where members get paid whether they are productive or not.  It would appear from what is said here, that the unions at 202 are of the latter type, creating a situation where their members are less than productive, and perhaps criminal in their actions.
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Re: On 202 Workshop: inefficiencies and underperformance
« Reply #21 on: April 08, 2015, 22:43:36 »
Bruce.  Not to argue with you, but I have formed an opinion that some Unions are good Unions who are working hard for their membership; while some Unions are not, working only to benefit and profit the Union leaders, or working solely to create a work place where members get paid whether they are productive or not.  It would appear from what is said here, that the unions at 202 are of the latter type, creating a situation where their members are less than productive, and perhaps criminal in their actions.

How are the Unions creating a workplace??  Management creates a workplace...........the Unions follow the rules that management lays out,,,,,,,,,,,,,now, if management is crooked....
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Re: On 202 Workshop: inefficiencies and underperformance
« Reply #22 on: April 09, 2015, 01:08:38 »
How are the Unions creating a workplace??  Management creates a workplace...........the Unions follow the rules that management lays out,,,,,,,,,,,,,now, if management is crooked....

Bruce, I'm not going to lecture. We, you and I, know for a fact the unions, and workers, do not always follow the rules management lays out.  The OHSA lays out the rules and standards for ALL workplace parties to follow. It's part of the IRS. Section 28 states the rules for workers. A large number of contraventions I cite and tickets I give is because the WORKERS consistently fail to follow the law or employers terms of employment.

There are also workers, in certain bargaining units, that consistently do work refusals to get immediate attention, even though they know their WR will be changed to a complaint under section 43. Yet they persist in wasting money and tying up valuable resources calling them in anyway, in order to score a large number of safety points against the employer for grievances and bargaining purposes. I have yet to attend a work refusal, and I've done more than a few, with that bargaining unit that actually fit the definition of a work refusal. They were all changed to complaints, even the ones that the union, who knows they are not WRs, also launched. Why? Because they think they are more important that the critical injury I'm attending, where someone has fallen two stories and is laying there with two broken legs and a broken pelvis.

The Internal Responsibility System is not a one way street with the employer responsible for everything.

And make no mistake. I've had unions try bend the rules, utilize a partial phrase instead of using the whole section in context, sit at the table banging on it with fists and hurling expletives, at the calm, composed employers like a bunch of out of control chimpanzees throwing feces.

All that saying is, that contrary to your opinion, it is a two way street. The unions and workers can, and are, just as culpable as the employer for many of the problems found in workplaces.

Let me put another spin on it. Some of the cleanest, safest workplaces, with excellent safety records and workers earning competitive wages and benefits, while enjoying all kinds of perks for productivity and gladly sharing equal responsibility, with the employer, for the workplace, are non union shops.

I wonder why that is.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2015, 01:19:22 by recceguy »
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Offline Kat Stevens

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Re: On 202 Workshop: inefficiencies and underperformance
« Reply #23 on: April 09, 2015, 01:39:45 »
My son works in a manufacturing plant in Edmonton, non union shop, in the QC and inspection department.  A number of years ago their shop began to fill up with machinists who were refugees from the failed Ontario auto industry.  They bought their union attitudes with them, always doing the bare minimum, and sometimes not even that, all while sitting around and bitching about how shitty Alberta and it's shitty non union shops are.  These guys make pumps and drilling components for the energy industry (we can't call it oil and gas any more because people spit on us when we do), since these guys started showing up the fail/reject/return rate has gone up remarkably.  Before, a guy chucked a piece of stock in his machine, and unchucked a finished component, deburred and polished.  The new dudes apparently think that the deburring fairy will clean up their crap for them.  Morale and productivity are both down, and is attributable to the influx of these guys.
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Re: On 202 Workshop: inefficiencies and underperformance
« Reply #24 on: April 09, 2015, 01:51:10 »
There are also workers, in certain bargaining units, that consistently do work refusals to get immediate attention,
Say it ain't so my friend. ;D


Let me put another spin on it. Some of the cleanest, safest workplaces, with excellent safety records and workers earning competitive wages and benefits, while enjoying all kinds of perks for productivity and gladly sharing equal responsibility, with the employer, for the workplace, are non union shops.

I wonder why that is.

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