Author Topic: Paid Physical Fitness Time?  (Read 35069 times)

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Offline Mango

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Paid Physical Fitness Time?
« on: July 04, 2015, 01:14:40 »
Ive heard in the past that regular work hours, 8-4, include 1 hour of physical activity from 8-9 wether it be weightlifting, running or playing a sport. Is this true?

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Re: Paid Physical Fitness Time?
« Reply #1 on: July 04, 2015, 01:52:59 »
Ive heard in the past that regular work hours, 8-4, include 1 hour of physical activity from 8-9 wether it be weightlifting, running or playing a sport. Is this true?

From what I've witnessed while working at a CBG HQ, yes.
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Re: Paid Physical Fitness Time?
« Reply #2 on: July 04, 2015, 02:04:31 »
Don't expect to be able to do your own pt all the time, that pt hour could be done as a group.

Offline MCG

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Re: Paid Physical Fitness Time?
« Reply #3 on: July 04, 2015, 06:04:43 »
Ive heard in the past that regular work hours, 8-4, include 1 hour of physical activity from 8-9 wether it be weightlifting, running or playing a sport. Is this true?
Routine varies from unit to unit.  Don't expect the work day to be 8 to 4 with PT the first hour every day.  Days could start earlier and/or run later.  PT may be scheduled first thing in the day, it may be last thing of the day, it could be both, or it may be up to you to find time.  Your schedule may even change depending on the day of the week.

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Re: Paid Physical Fitness Time?
« Reply #4 on: July 04, 2015, 09:05:04 »
Ive heard in the past that regular work hours, 8-4, include 1 hour of physical activity from 8-9 wether it be weightlifting, running or playing a sport. Is this true?

CF Members and time alloted for PT 
http://army.ca/forums/index.php?topic=99903.0;nowap
5 pages.

"I was under the understanding that we were entitled to one hour a day equalling 5 hours a week."

PT Time Taken Away
http://army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,77440.0/nowap.html

Offline molsonman

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Re: Paid Physical Fitness Time?
« Reply #5 on: September 16, 2015, 08:21:36 »
Depends on the unit.

When I was with a 1st line army unit PT was 5 days a week. It was always a group run 4 times a week and sports afternoon 1 time a week. I have been with units that had group PT 3 times a week. Right now I have PT 3 times a week but it is whatever I feel like doing.

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Re: Paid Physical Fitness Time?
« Reply #6 on: September 25, 2015, 07:25:43 »
In all sincere honesty, I'd love to ask a follow-up question to this, because I am seriously not understanding it.

What I do understand is that in the regular work day hours, you'll do PT. But then, for example, you have Puckchaser saying "Don't expect to be able to do your own pt all the time".

I am confused. Does this mean you can't do your PT alone DURING the work hours, or AFTER the work hours when you're done? And if it IS after the work hours... Where is the logic in that, because I really don't see it.
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Re: Paid Physical Fitness Time?
« Reply #7 on: September 25, 2015, 07:54:43 »
In all sincere honesty, I'd love to ask a follow-up question to this, because I am seriously not understanding it.

What I do understand is that in the regular work day hours, you'll do PT. But then, for example, you have Puckchaser saying "Don't expect to be able to do your own pt all the time".

I am confused. Does this mean you can't do your PT alone DURING the work hours, or AFTER the work hours when you're done? And if it IS after the work hours... Where is the logic in that, because I really don't see it.

Depending on the unit, you may do organized PT during the day (working hours) and will not be able to do your own training you have to do it with your group.  If it is after hours you can do PT on your own.  A lot of people do both, the organized PT with the group during working hours then after work or during lunch do their own PT.
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Offline Lumber

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Re: Paid Physical Fitness Time?
« Reply #8 on: September 25, 2015, 08:56:35 »
Ive heard in the past that regular work hours, 8-4, include 1 hour of physical activity from 8-9 wether it be weightlifting, running or playing a sport. Is this true?

Every unit is different.

In Halifax, we have many independent units (8+ ships in port, CFNOS, CFNES, CSOR, FMF, etc.). While everyone is entitled to 1 hour of PT a day, what actually occured varied widely; the constant though, was it all depended on the Command team (CO, XO, Coxn) and how much importance they placed on PT (much less operationally important in the Navy then in the Army).

When your a ship that is going to sea fairly often, your time spent alongside is usually busy. There is a ton of maintenance, planning, and training that happens in between sails, and they often take precendence over PT. When you're not sailing often, you're not as busy, and PT seems to happen more often.

When my ship was in refit and our ship's company was in shore office, we started doing group PT 3 days a week, and increased that to 5 days a week. What we did varied significantly; for the most part it was 40% running, 40% circuit trg, and 10% individual or sports PT. While these sessions were mandatory, work/projects/deadlines always took priority over PT. Our XO was really big into fitness and would have seniors NCOs scour the shore office to make sure no one was skipping out unless they had a good reason.

Once we got our ship back, PT pretty much decreased to an almost-never level. I don't know how it works in the Army or AF, but in the Navy, I've never seen any unit start the work day earlier than normal in order to condcut PT, and we had some very busy work days in the few months after we got the ship back. While we maintained mandatory PT 3 times  week, it wasn't uncommon for only 25 ish ppl to show up (out of a ship's company of ~125).

One observation I've seen from the Navy that I think contrasts witht he Army (although this is an assumption because I've never worked with the Army), is that the Navy seems to do a shittier job of leading by example, at least when it come to PT. As I mentioned earlier, work always took priority over PT. The result of this is that PO2s/Lt(N) and above were absent from PT far more than MS/SLt and below. Once our ship got back into the sea-going routine and was sailing every other week, PT seemed to only be made up of junior officers and NCMs; everyone else was doing paper-work or routine maitenance.
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Re: Paid Physical Fitness Time?
« Reply #9 on: September 25, 2015, 10:20:28 »
As I mentioned earlier, work always took priority over PT.

There's your problem right there. We're in the Service. PT is work.
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Re: Paid Physical Fitness Time?
« Reply #10 on: September 25, 2015, 10:27:35 »
There's your problem right there. We're in the Service. PT is work.

When it's a few weeks before Work-Ups starts, and you're swamped creating pre-firing briefs and mission briefs, drafting firing orders, OCS Intentions Messages and Request for Service Support Messages, coordinating with other ship's to sort out exercise timings, having your list of exercises changed by Sea Trg and having to re-do most of the above, conducting misfire drills and practicing voice procedure with your team, staying until 1800 already... When this is your work day, then PT is no longer high on your priority list.
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Re: Paid Physical Fitness Time?
« Reply #11 on: September 25, 2015, 10:53:08 »
When it's a few weeks before Work-Ups starts, and you're swamped creating pre-firing briefs and mission briefs, drafting firing orders, OCS Intentions Messages and Request for Service Support Messages, coordinating with other ship's to sort out exercise timings, having your list of exercises changed by Sea Trg and having to re-do most of the above, conducting misfire drills and practicing voice procedure with your team, staying until 1800 already... When this is your work day, then PT is no longer high on your priority list.

I understand, and sympathize. What I mean to convey is that we need to get out of the mindset that PT is something separate from work. Read the CDS directive to commanders. It's pretty clear that his intent is that PT is work.
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Re: Paid Physical Fitness Time?
« Reply #12 on: September 25, 2015, 11:03:30 »
I understand, and sympathize. What I mean to convey is that we need to get out of the mindset that PT is something separate from work. Read the CDS directive to commanders. It's pretty clear that his intent is that PT is work.

Ah, my appologies. And I agree. While in the Navy we don't need to use physical strength and endurance to complete our tasks like the Army does, there are still massive benefits to being physically fit. Once thing we have to endure a lot in the Navy as part of our regular job is long period of getting little sleep, as well as working and sleeping on a platform that is constantly rocking. This leads to being tired all the time at best, and actually fatigued at the worst (not to mention sea-sick). Being physically fit better prepares you to deal with these hardships, as well as the emotional stresses that come with it.

However, I don't know how it works in the army, but you'd have a mutiny on your hand if you tried to start work at 0700 vice 0800 in order to do PT...
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Re: Paid Physical Fitness Time?
« Reply #13 on: September 25, 2015, 11:15:44 »
But the point isn't to make the normal duty day longer, it is to incorporate PT into the workday. 
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Re: Paid Physical Fitness Time?
« Reply #14 on: September 25, 2015, 12:03:38 »
PT in the Army is part of the battle rhythm. My CO says we will do PT as a Sqn 2 days a week, as a Tp 2 days a week and as a regiment once a week. He says we will start at 0700, then we start at 0700. We will be back to work at 0930. If PT goes from 0700 to 0900, then it sucks to be us. Period. PT is (as stated above) about being healthy enough to handle our day-to-day duties (a healthy soldier I can put the **** to for over 24 hours straight in the field without injury. However, we need to afford our troops the training necessary to pass the FORCE test. This is what it comes down to IMO. If we just put PT on the back burner because we have jobs to do (which we all do i'm sure) and then say, oh - go pass that FORCE test... a disservice has been paid to our troops.

PT is unequivocally an everyday part of a soldiers like (or at least it SHOULD be). We are paid 24/7 so if your boss says "Lets do PT at 6AM" then guess what? Set your friggin alarm boys and girls. Oh, but it's stormy out? Wear a hat.
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Offline Oldgateboatdriver

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Re: Paid Physical Fitness Time?
« Reply #15 on: September 25, 2015, 13:32:20 »
No one is denying that "PT is part of the battle rhythm" for the Army. Lumber's point can be summarized in the following question: Is it part of the battle rhythm for the Navy?

And the answer is: No, it never has been. That is not to say that physical fitness is not important to the Navy or encouraged. Quite the contrary. But it says that  in the Navy, other than inter unit sports or similar "special" day (fleet regatta, for instance) it has always been considered something that is for the individual to do on his/her own, because work hours are otherwise required of more important matters.

And as you  say, BinRat, it is a matter of "battle rhythm". This rhythm for the Army is usually (and anyone feel free to correct me if I am [likely] wrong) to have two large exercises or "scheme" year. A summer one and a winter one, each of about two or three weeks duration. In between you are "in garrison" and concentrate on individual training and qualification or sub-team/team tactics training and doing maintenance on equipment. PT is part and parcel of this garrison life - always has been.

But imagine now that you are in an Armour Regiment and suddenly - out of the blue - you are told  to get ready to ship out in two weeks to a six month deployment on operation XYZ on the other side of the world. How much PT will take place during that two week pre-deployment period? I am not in the Army but I can tell you  I have no doubt the answer is none. Your mechanics will be working 12 hours a day six days a week to get all your MBT's top shape. The officers and warrants will be gathering info, studying maps, overseeing packing of the gears, making sure everyone in the regiment has its papers and affairs in order, etc. There would be no time at that point for daily PT.

Well, in the Navy "battle rhythm", a ship is "operational" for roughly two years, then in long refit for one year. While "operational", the rhythm is one or two weeks at sea followed by one or two weeks in harbour - continually for the two years. While at sea, it's like an Army "scheme". Daily workload varies from 12 to 16 hours a day for seaman to 14 to 20 hours a day for more senior personnel (as CO, I averaged 18-20 hours day at sea - and the 4 to 6 hours of sleep I got were NOT in a row). When at sea, when you have a small break, you can use the onboard PT gear (fixed bikes, treadmills, weight sets, etc.) but this is on an individual basis and "out of hours". And the week to two weeks in harbour between deployment are always closer to the type your Army unit would experience in the two weeks warning period I described above. The ship has to be stored, the next operational deployment planned, the equipment maintained and fixed (which can only be done during the regular working hours as civilian workers are participating and they are not going to come early or leave late and won't wait for you to complete your PT.

So, all we are saying is, as part of the normal  rhythm of things, "group PT" and "PT during regular working hours" is not and has never been part of the routine, save exceptional circumstances, and is difficult t manage or even sustain.   

 

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Re: Paid Physical Fitness Time?
« Reply #16 on: September 25, 2015, 14:31:16 »
No one is denying that "PT is part of the battle rhythm" for the Army. Lumber's point can be summarized in the following question: Is it part of the battle rhythm for the Navy?

And the answer is: No, it never has been. That is not to say that physical fitness is not important to the Navy or encouraged. Quite the contrary. But it says that  in the Navy, other than inter unit sports or similar "special" day (fleet regatta, for instance) it has always been considered something that is for the individual to do on his/her own, because work hours are otherwise required of more important matters.

And as you  say, BinRat, it is a matter of "battle rhythm". This rhythm for the Army is usually (and anyone feel free to correct me if I am [likely] wrong) to have two large exercises or "scheme" year. A summer one and a winter one, each of about two or three weeks duration. In between you are "in garrison" and concentrate on individual training and qualification or sub-team/team tactics training and doing maintenance on equipment. PT is part and parcel of this garrison life - always has been.

But imagine now that you are in an Armour Regiment and suddenly - out of the blue - you are told  to get ready to ship out in two weeks to a six month deployment on operation XYZ on the other side of the world. How much PT will take place during that two week pre-deployment period? I am not in the Army but I can tell you  I have no doubt the answer is none. Your mechanics will be working 12 hours a day six days a week to get all your MBT's top shape. The officers and warrants will be gathering info, studying maps, overseeing packing of the gears, making sure everyone in the regiment has its papers and affairs in order, etc. There would be no time at that point for daily PT.

Well, in the Navy "battle rhythm", a ship is "operational" for roughly two years, then in long refit for one year. While "operational", the rhythm is one or two weeks at sea followed by one or two weeks in harbour - continually for the two years. While at sea, it's like an Army "scheme". Daily workload varies from 12 to 16 hours a day for seaman to 14 to 20 hours a day for more senior personnel (as CO, I averaged 18-20 hours day at sea - and the 4 to 6 hours of sleep I got were NOT in a row). When at sea, when you have a small break, you can use the onboard PT gear (fixed bikes, treadmills, weight sets, etc.) but this is on an individual basis and "out of hours". And the week to two weeks in harbour between deployment are always closer to the type your Army unit would experience in the two weeks warning period I described above. The ship has to be stored, the next operational deployment planned, the equipment maintained and fixed (which can only be done during the regular working hours as civilian workers are participating and they are not going to come early or leave late and won't wait for you to complete your PT.

So, all we are saying is, as part of the normal  rhythm of things, "group PT" and "PT during regular working hours" is not and has never been part of the routine, save exceptional circumstances, and is difficult t manage or even sustain.

 :goodpost:

What he ^ said.

As a 1-in-2 director, I worked 7 hours on, 7 hours off, 5 hours on, 5 hours off. The 5 hours off I used to carry out my staff and divisional duties. The 7 hours off was often cut short by mandatory briefings, supper at one end, breakfast at the other, and a shower (sometimes). So when the question came up, "Do I work out and get 4.5hrs sleep tonight, or not workout and get 5.5 hours of sleep today", I 90% of the time chose the latter.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2015, 14:35:11 by Lumber »
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Offline BinRat55

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Re: Paid Physical Fitness Time?
« Reply #17 on: September 25, 2015, 15:07:57 »
Please don't take me the wrong way - I'm not arguing (I promise) I realize there are differences between all 3 elements, as you are correct in pointing out - the roles are completely different. I will be honest, I have never served on a ship or in a sea posting, but have had the pleasure of working along side outstanding sailors. Nothing but respect for what you guys do. I did misunderstand Lumber WRT the "Navy" connection - I am merely discussing the point of "Is PT done during working hours" and I say yes - it is. Even if it's done at 6PM when so ordered.

I can only imagine how difficult it would be to engage in a ship-wide PT while in the South Pacific...


But imagine now that you are in an Armour Regiment and suddenly - out of the blue - you are told  to get ready to ship out in two weeks to a six month deployment on operation XYZ on the other side of the world. How much PT will take place during that two week pre-deployment period? I am not in the Army but I can tell you  I have no doubt the answer is none. Your mechanics will be working 12 hours a day six days a week to get all your MBT's top shape. The officers and warrants will be gathering info, studying maps, overseeing packing of the gears, making sure everyone in the regiment has its papers and affairs in order, etc. There would be no time at that point for daily PT.

This is not true. As I alluded to earlier, we would start the day earlier and end later. I have completed work-up training where I (as a support trade) mounted the regiment onto the mission, participated in MLoC, coy, reg, bde PT daily and conducted BFT and FORCE testing. We have no choice - we MAKE time. These guys in the Army, they are very passionate about their PT (again, not that other elements are not) I have little experience with the Navy. On posting to my last Air base, I pulled out my rucksack and one of my Cpls feinted.

Well, in the Navy "battle rhythm", a ship is "operational" for roughly two years, then in long refit for one year. While "operational", the rhythm is one or two weeks at sea followed by one or two weeks in harbour - continually for the two years. While at sea, it's like an Army "scheme". Daily workload varies from 12 to 16 hours a day for seaman to 14 to 20 hours a day for more senior personnel (as CO, I averaged 18-20 hours day at sea - and the 4 to 6 hours of sleep I got were NOT in a row). When at sea, when you have a small break, you can use the onboard PT gear (fixed bikes, treadmills, weight sets, etc.) but this is on an individual basis and "out of hours". And the week to two weeks in harbour between deployment are always closer to the type your Army unit would experience in the two weeks warning period I described above. The ship has to be stored, the next operational deployment planned, the equipment maintained and fixed (which can only be done during the regular working hours as civilian workers are participating and they are not going to come early or leave late and won't wait for you to complete your PT.

So, all we are saying is, as part of the normal  rhythm of things, "group PT" and "PT during regular working hours" is not and has never been part of the routine, save exceptional circumstances, and is difficult t manage or even sustain.

Again, I can't disagree with you on any of these points as I am not in my lane. My experience being army in units such as 2 Svc Bn / 1, 2, 3 RCR, 2 RCHA, 4 ESR, Afghanistan twice, Bosnia... PT for us has never been "put off" to get other things done - we learn how to manufacture time.
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Re: Paid Physical Fitness Time?
« Reply #18 on: September 25, 2015, 15:25:32 »
I like how the site allows for informed discussion between the elements on issues that affect us all.

OGB summed up shipboard routine easily and attempted his best to make a parallel comparison to an active army combat unit.

Despite routine operational needs in the navy or even air, I believe the CDS message to all leaders to allow for maximum time for fitness during working hours should be remembered. Too often during shore postings,  our (navy) previous expectations carried on and we allowed marginal 'important duties' to override the need to maintain PT.
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Offline Lumber

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Re: Paid Physical Fitness Time?
« Reply #19 on: September 25, 2015, 15:33:12 »
Despite routine operational needs in the navy or even air, I believe the CDS message to all leaders to allow for maximum time for fitness during working hours should be remembered. Too often during shore postings,  our (navy) previous expectations carried on and we allowed marginal 'important duties' to override the need to maintain PT.

I think this is where us Navy folk (I'm assuming you were Navy) are in discord with BinRat. I'm all for allowing, and even pushing PT during working hours (as much as I hate running more than anything, I was proud to finally run my first 10k after several month of 2-a-week mandatory runs). However, I really really hate the idea of coming into work early to do PT. Yes yes yes, technically we are members of the CAF 24/7. I don't know how to explain it better, BinRat. Maybe OGBD can explain it better, it's just not part of our culture to come into work early for something like PT. We ask people to stay late to get work done (such as during work up preps), but we'd never ask people to stay late to do PT.
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Re: Paid Physical Fitness Time?
« Reply #20 on: September 25, 2015, 15:58:13 »
Ok, BLUF - IMO, PT should be done every day, together. It fosters camaraderie, esprit de corps, promotes leadership, chain of command, health and fitness and competitiveness among each other. There will undoubtedly be times when it will be absolutely impossible to achieve this but we do our best. If it means starting the day earlier, sobeit. If it means ending the day later, sobeit.

What defines working hours? The fact that I do not have a signed leave pass means that I can be on duty at any time. Heck, I can say let's do PT every day from 1100 - 1200, back to work at 1300. We will be at reveille pde by 0720 and our dismissal pde will be at 1730H. PT is now "within" working hours.

Just my opinion.
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Re: Paid Physical Fitness Time?
« Reply #21 on: September 25, 2015, 16:36:10 »
These blanket policies fron the top are just stupid.  Three different environments, three totally different requirements.  If you're combat arms, you need to be fit, full stop anf significant portion of your day should be spent training your body to be a well oiled war machine. 

Everyone else, well it's not as important.  Stop applying stupid blanket policies across the board because you have a desire to see everyone turn out looking like Clark Kent in uniform. 

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Re: Paid Physical Fitness Time?
« Reply #22 on: September 25, 2015, 17:15:45 »
We will be at reveille pde by 0720 and our dismissal pde will be at 1730H.



What is this sorcery you speak of?  Sorry....seldom to many units confirm to a uniform work schedule where everyone can get together for the group hug.  Where i work - everyone is on a unique shift.  My BLUF - I order my guys to do 5 hrs per week.  I trust that they do it.....they feel guilty when they don't - because i instil the criticality of it.

Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Paid Physical Fitness Time?
« Reply #23 on: September 25, 2015, 17:32:59 »
I think this is where us Navy folk (I'm assuming you were Navy) are in discord with BinRat. I'm all for allowing, and even pushing PT during working hours (as much as I hate running more than anything, I was proud to finally run my first 10k after several month of 2-a-week mandatory runs). However, I really really hate the idea of coming into work early to do PT. Yes yes yes, technically we are members of the CAF 24/7. I don't know how to explain it better, BinRat. Maybe OGBD can explain it better, it's just not part of our culture to come into work early for something like PT. We ask people to stay late to get work done (such as during work up preps), but we'd never ask people to stay late to do PT.

Why would you have to come in earlier to go PT?  I go to PT at 8am, or 11am, or 2pm, or whenever it suits the schedule I am on that day or week.  I sure as hell don't come in early or stay late to do PT, it is part of my work day.  Just like the CDS Guidance to COs and the DAODs say it supposed to be.
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Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Paid Physical Fitness Time?
« Reply #24 on: September 25, 2015, 17:38:51 »
Ok, BLUF - IMO, PT should be done every day, together. It fosters camaraderie, esprit de corps, promotes leadership, chain of command, health and fitness and competitiveness among each other. There will undoubtedly be times when it will be absolutely impossible to achieve this but we do our best. If it means starting the day earlier, sobeit. If it means ending the day later, sobeit.

But again, there is no requirement to make the work day longer to fit in PT.  My PT time is during the work day. 

Quote
What defines working hours? The fact that I do not have a signed leave pass means that I can be on duty at any time. Heck, I can say let's do PT every day from 1100 - 1200, back to work at 1300. We will be at reveille pde by 0720 and our dismissal pde will be at 1730H. PT is now "within" working hours.

Just my opinion.

Each unit is supposed to publish what it's 'normal working/duty day' hours are.  Ours are found in our Sqn Orders.

This is the order/regulation that you do NOT want to be published or known or exist if you show up for work at 0805hrs and are told you are "AWOL".   ;D

units who do the thing you are talking about to make PT 'within' working hours will probably experience people who are pissed or and have low GAFF.  Whats the point in that?  Why punish people because of a CF-wide directive? 
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