Author Topic: Paid Physical Fitness Time?  (Read 36459 times)

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Offline Navy_Pete

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Re: Paid Physical Fitness Time?
« Reply #50 on: September 27, 2015, 16:27:12 »
It works out not too bad, the downside being it's the same people that are generally out exercising rather then everyone taking advantage, so it's not perfect.

Personally find that before/after work is the only time I can regularly get out for exercise, but find it a good way to burn of stress after running around during the days at meetings and otherwise putting out fires.

Offline Lumber

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Re: Paid Physical Fitness Time?
« Reply #51 on: May 04, 2016, 10:09:29 »
Looking for opinions.

First, we do a lot of "personal" PT around here, and please let's not start up that old argument again.

If one of my guys or gals wanted to work out from 0800-0900, I'd be all for it. I already have a couple who I see in the weight room first thing in the morning.

If someone wanted to ride their bike for 45mins-1hr as part of their PT, I'd be all for that too! There no difference between going for a PT oriented bike ride and a 5km run, right?

If a member wanted to do their PT from 0800-0900, and their PT consisted of exercise bike riding, that'd be fine too! Makes sense to me.

Now here's  where it starts to feel sort of... wrong? What if a member wants to ride his bike from 0800-0845, then shower, and his route for said bike ride is from his house to the unit? It has all the elements of the above examples, but it feels kind of like cheating out of work. I trust that the member isn't just sleeping in. He actually does live 45 mins away and doesn't own a car, so if he shows up at 0845 on his bike, I know he actually spent 45 mins peddling away.

Thoughts? Does this feel off to anyone else? Would you let him?

Cheers
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Re: Paid Physical Fitness Time?
« Reply #52 on: May 04, 2016, 10:41:36 »
Looking for opinions.

Thoughts? Does this feel off to anyone else? Would you let him?

Cheers

No, I would not. Just the same, I would make everyone report in at a given time, and then proceed to PT. A quick "right, everyone's here, no fastballs to handle, off you go" sort of thing.
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Offline Andraste

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Re: Paid Physical Fitness Time?
« Reply #53 on: May 04, 2016, 16:09:37 »
Looking for opinions.

Thoughts? Does this feel off to anyone else? Would you let him?

For me I guess I would view it no differently than someone who drives their car to work and hits the gym for a leisurely 45 minute stationary bike ride then off the bike and into the showers.  If the member is getting her/his exercise in one form or another the venue (gym or biking from home) doesn't see to make a difference.

I had a guy working for me who ran from his house each morning to work and back home again which equated to 18kms (round trip).  I see that as a good PT.  But you are right, I would want to make sure the member is actually doing what they are saying and that is easy enough to monitor IMO. 

I guess if we want to make fitness a culture mindset, it makes sense to foster that in folks in whatever form they can given their work schedule, unit commitments and all around day to day nausea . . . my two cents.

Cheers

Andraste

Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Paid Physical Fitness Time?
« Reply #54 on: May 04, 2016, 16:27:33 »
No, I would not. Just the same, I would make everyone report in at a given time, and then proceed to PT. A quick "right, everyone's here, no fastballs to handle, off you go" sort of thing.

That doesn't work in every location.  I worked at a location that was 10-15 minute drive from my "office" to the gym.  If I hadn't of been able to go to PT first then work, I would reported to work, got back in my car, driven up Gottigen, got into the gym, changed...walked 10 steps, turned around, got back in uniform and drove back to work.  Voila there goes my 'hour of PT'.

Most units I've worked for (some army, navy and Air Force) we were authorized to start the work day with PT and then start work at "XYZ time". 

Personally, I think the spirit and intent of the PT policy is being adhered to here; the member is doing PT and reporting to work on time.  What PT would he/she be doing after a 45 min big ride? What would be the difference if the mbr drove to work, got there for 0745 and then...took their bike off the back of their car and went for an hour ride?
 

*Cough* Doing PT and then reporting to work *cough* is something I've seen done before; the people who abused it were caught and dealt with.  Not hard to tell if someone is doing the PT or not, especially when they tap out at lvl 3 on the 20MSR.   :nod:  (back when we had that...) 
 :2c:
« Last Edit: May 04, 2016, 21:06:09 by Eye In The Sky »
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Offline ballz

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Re: Paid Physical Fitness Time?
« Reply #55 on: May 04, 2016, 17:42:35 »
I would let him in a heartbeat. If you don't create an environment that is conducive to PT, you are not going to get a lot of PT.

I swim from 0615 - 0715 on Mondays / Wednesdays. On Wednesdays, I follow that up with a bike ride (working up to 40km, which will take me about 1h20), so on Wednesdays the OC knows I won't be at coy parade. I get to work between 0900-1000 on Wednesdays because of it. If the OC wouldn't let me do that, he is literally blocking me from bettering myself. He should be encouraging me, not discouraging me.

I have had troops that wanted to do similar things. I always accommodated anyone that wanted to miss coy parade because they were doing a 2 hour long workout and we only have 1 hour of PT built into our daily schedule. It's never been the suspects that ask for those things in my experience.
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Offline ballz

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Re: Paid Physical Fitness Time?
« Reply #56 on: May 04, 2016, 17:52:40 »
Now here's  where it starts to feel sort of... wrong? What if a member wants to ride his bike from 0800-0845, then shower, and his route for said bike ride is from his house to the unit? It has all the elements of the above examples, but it feels kind of like cheating out of work. I trust that the member isn't just sleeping in. He actually does live 45 mins away and doesn't own a car, so if he shows up at 0845 on his bike, I know he actually spent 45 mins peddling away.

Thoughts? Does this feel off to anyone else? Would you let him?

Cheers

Not to mention he is going to spend 45 minutes riding back... so 90 minutes of cardio a day. Good on him I'd say.

If he doesn't have a car, how does he normally get to work? Bus / subway / etc?
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Offline gryphonv

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Re: Paid Physical Fitness Time?
« Reply #57 on: May 04, 2016, 18:37:17 »
Looking for opinions.

First, we do a lot of "personal" PT around here, and please let's not start up that old argument again.

If one of my guys or gals wanted to work out from 0800-0900, I'd be all for it. I already have a couple who I see in the weight room first thing in the morning.

If someone wanted to ride their bike for 45mins-1hr as part of their PT, I'd be all for that too! There no difference between going for a PT oriented bike ride and a 5km run, right?

If a member wanted to do their PT from 0800-0900, and their PT consisted of exercise bike riding, that'd be fine too! Makes sense to me.

Now here's  where it starts to feel sort of... wrong? What if a member wants to ride his bike from 0800-0845, then shower, and his route for said bike ride is from his house to the unit? It has all the elements of the above examples, but it feels kind of like cheating out of work. I trust that the member isn't just sleeping in. He actually does live 45 mins away and doesn't own a car, so if he shows up at 0845 on his bike, I know he actually spent 45 mins peddling away.

Thoughts? Does this feel off to anyone else? Would you let him?

Cheers

This is where the Honor system applies. If the member is responsible I would run with it, as long as it didn't interfere with running your unit. Have him/her submit a memo and get the COC approval. I've seen similar accommodations done for members before.

There is one issue though, which could be even more complicated. If he/she is on 'working hours' and he gets injured while travelling in it could be a whole different issue with benefits if it came to that. Is he/she doing ordered pt, or extracurricular activities? Could have all sorts of implications if it ever came to a VA claim.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2016, 18:39:49 by gryphonv »

Offline ballz

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Re: Paid Physical Fitness Time?
« Reply #58 on: May 04, 2016, 19:39:32 »
There is one issue though, which could be even more complicated. If he/she is on 'working hours' and he gets injured while travelling in it could be a whole different issue with benefits if it came to that. Is he/she doing ordered pt, or extracurricular activities? Could have all sorts of implications if it ever came to a VA claim.

If you are driving to or from work, its considered a service-related injury anyway. But if he has an approved memo from CoC to do this as his physical training as you wisely mentioned, he'd be good to go in that regard as well. You don't need to be on base for it to be a service-related injury.
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Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: Paid Physical Fitness Time?
« Reply #59 on: May 04, 2016, 21:03:43 »
Just to offer some constructive criticism.

There no difference between going for a PT oriented bike

For me it would depend on a few factors like the members level of fitness and whether or not the members bike ride in from work, given the time and distance to their house, would be considered strenuous or not.

A leisurely bike ride to work in my opinion wouldn't constitute physical training. It would also be ignoring upper body conditioning too.

PT is also a great avenue for getting to know peers/leaders/subordinates and exercise the principles of leadership. A member doing it on their own every day will miss out on that important aspect.

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Offline PuckChaser

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Re: Paid Physical Fitness Time?
« Reply #60 on: May 04, 2016, 21:18:17 »
That would be my consideration as well, cycling every day would be one-dimensional fitness. Unless the member is trying to lose a lot of weight, it's not good for overall conditioning. I'd give him a few days a week to cycle in and skip PT, but at least twice a week in the gym doing weights/circuit training with everyone else.

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Re: Paid Physical Fitness Time?
« Reply #61 on: May 04, 2016, 22:15:56 »
When I was requesting the start or end of day PT periods, I was always frustrated with "additional" restrictions on which days, times ect...After reading Jarnhamar and PuckChaser's comments, I have a clearer understanding how the CoC was assisting in improving the overall benefit of my PT efforts.
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Offline Pusser

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Re: Paid Physical Fitness Time?
« Reply #62 on: May 05, 2016, 11:06:09 »
Looking for opinions.

First, we do a lot of "personal" PT around here, and please let's not start up that old argument again.

If one of my guys or gals wanted to work out from 0800-0900, I'd be all for it. I already have a couple who I see in the weight room first thing in the morning.

If someone wanted to ride their bike for 45mins-1hr as part of their PT, I'd be all for that too! There no difference between going for a PT oriented bike ride and a 5km run, right?

If a member wanted to do their PT from 0800-0900, and their PT consisted of exercise bike riding, that'd be fine too! Makes sense to me.

Now here's  where it starts to feel sort of... wrong? What if a member wants to ride his bike from 0800-0845, then shower, and his route for said bike ride is from his house to the unit? It has all the elements of the above examples, but it feels kind of like cheating out of work. I trust that the member isn't just sleeping in. He actually does live 45 mins away and doesn't own a car, so if he shows up at 0845 on his bike, I know he actually spent 45 mins peddling away.

Thoughts? Does this feel off to anyone else? Would you let him?

Cheers

I would permit this in a heartbeat, because that is exactly what I do!  The only thing I would look out for is whether he's stepping off the bus or walking from the parking lot at 0845 (which I once caught one of my subordinates doing).  As others have said, anyone who would abuse this situation would be found out soon enough.  Furthermore, allowing people to leave early for PT (e.g. go play hockey) and not return to work afterwards is commonplace.  I don't see this as being any different.

As for the idea that this individual is missing unit PT, that does not appear to be an issue in this case (i.e. no mention that the unit does group PT first thing in the morning).  Also, I would argue that the statements concerning whether or not this is a "complete" workout are irrelevant.  Aside from those units that do group PT (and even then I wonder), where in the CF do we, as an organization, actually monitor and ensure that personnel are working the whole body with both cardio and resistance training?  Finally, anyone who thinks that cycling only works the legs, hasn't done a lot of cycling...
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Offline Lumber

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Re: Paid Physical Fitness Time?
« Reply #63 on: May 05, 2016, 13:35:38 »
Thanks for all the input everyone!
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Offline CountDC

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Re: Paid Physical Fitness Time?
« Reply #64 on: May 06, 2016, 16:31:04 »
I would permit this in a heartbeat, because that is exactly what I do!  The only thing I would look out for is whether he's stepping off the bus or walking from the parking lot at 0845 (which I once caught one of my subordinates doing).  As others have said, anyone who would abuse this situation would be found out soon enough.  Furthermore, allowing people to leave early for PT (e.g. go play hockey) and not return to work afterwards is commonplace.  I don't see this as being any different.

As for the idea that this individual is missing unit PT, that does not appear to be an issue in this case (i.e. no mention that the unit does group PT first thing in the morning).  Also, I would argue that the statements concerning whether or not this is a "complete" workout are irrelevant.  Aside from those units that do group PT (and even then I wonder), where in the CF do we, as an organization, actually monitor and ensure that personnel are working the whole body with both cardio and resistance training?  Finally, anyone who thinks that cycling only works the legs, hasn't done a lot of cycling...

Agree fully as I do the same thing. Cycle back and forth to work as my unit PT and it is a harder work out than just legs or cardio.  Even if they were to make me be at work and then go do PT it wouldn't really accomplish anything different.  I would bike in and go to PT already tired out so not get much more of a workout.  I also workout at home with my wife who comes up with circuits harder than any I have done at work.
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Re: Paid Physical Fitness Time?
« Reply #65 on: May 08, 2016, 00:19:09 »
I'm a part time guy a.k.a. Class A Temp CF (cannon fodder)

I don't get paid for PT, except when I do the mandatory PT tests annually, or when I get to the armoury early enough to join the rifle company guys in a workout on a parade night.

There are Class B people who 'get paid' to do PT daily and many are - shall we say - somewhat less capable than this 55 year old chunk of cannon fodder. Don't get me wrong, I'm not the fittest guy around, but I am good to go compared to some of these people, sadly.

Should I submit pay sheets to recognize the time spent on my personal efforts, in my own time?

Should my (part time) soldiers do the same?

Really, looking for a steer here.

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Offline PuckChaser

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Re: Paid Physical Fitness Time?
« Reply #66 on: May 08, 2016, 10:04:38 »
If you start submitting pay sheets for doing PT: 1. You'll run out of CL A days and not be allowed to show up anymore for that year, 2. Do you plan on showing up for the 5 hours of work you owe the Crown for the half day pay you signed?

Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: Paid Physical Fitness Time?
« Reply #67 on: May 08, 2016, 13:20:14 »
"because I do it" isn't necessarily a great justification however I'm glad to read that than see some people get special privilege and others not.

My issue wouldn't be whether or not biking can be a physically challenging work out, obviously it can be. My issue would be the intensity and training involved in a member taking a bike to work in lieu of PT.  Running to work is a workout, walking at the speed of a child's pace isn't.



Should I submit pay sheets to recognize the time spent on my personal efforts, in my own time?

Should my (part time) soldiers do the same?

Really, looking for a steer here.

IMO reservists should absolutely be accommodated for PT somehow. If crap hits the fan the reg force won't be be effective without augmentation by reservists. Reservists seem to be generally out of shape. To me it only makes sense to try and help foster physical fitness so when we need them they'll be more ready.
Tracking and oversight would be an issue of course and require some brain storming.
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Offline daftandbarmy

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Re: Paid Physical Fitness Time?
« Reply #68 on: May 08, 2016, 15:18:37 »
"because I do it" isn't necessarily a great justification however I'm glad to read that than see some people get special privilege and others not.

My issue wouldn't be whether or not biking can be a physically challenging work out, obviously it can be. My issue would be the intensity and training involved in a member taking a bike to work in lieu of PT.  Running to work is a workout, walking at the speed of a child's pace isn't.


IMO reservists should absolutely be accommodated for PT somehow. If crap hits the fan the reg force won't be be effective without augmentation by reservists. Reservists seem to be generally out of shape. To me it only makes sense to try and help foster physical fitness so when we need them they'll be more ready.
Tracking and oversight would be an issue of course and require some brain storming.

There is a role here for biometric fitness trackers, of course. Large corporations, much larger than the CF, are getting on board with this big time

Require me to prove my fitness program through uploading my metrics to facebook, or whatever, then give me 5 x 1/2 day pay sheets per week.

I shouldn't have to parade at the armoury to do fitness. Ours is nowhere near the 1300ft mountain I usually train on (with a 40lb ruck) anyways :)
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Offline dapaterson

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Re: Paid Physical Fitness Time?
« Reply #69 on: May 08, 2016, 16:05:51 »
To recap CAF physical fitness: If we pay you 24/7, we'll give you reduced working hours and provide fitness facilities to let you exercise.  If you're part-time, we won't pay for your time, or provide you with any significant resources to help with your fitness.
 
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Re: Paid Physical Fitness Time?
« Reply #70 on: May 08, 2016, 16:14:49 »
If there's a base nearby, reservists can use the base gym no questions asked. Whether they do it or not, is their problem. Regular force members are expected to be ready to go at a moment's notice. If a reservist wants to deploy, they have months to get ready prior to contract award. If that reservist isn't fit, that's a PRes unit CoC failure for nominating someone not in shape.

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Re: Paid Physical Fitness Time?
« Reply #71 on: May 08, 2016, 16:21:21 »
If there's a base nearby, reservists can use the base gym no questions asked. Whether they do it or not, is their problem.

If - and it's a big if.  As well, some maintain restrictive hours that don;t serve people already working full time very well.

Quote
Regular force members are expected to be ready to go at a moment's notice.

With the numbers who DAG red, it's clear that many are not holding up their end of the bargain.

Quote
If a reservist wants to deploy, they have months to get ready prior to contract award. If that reservist isn't fit, that's a PRes unit CoC failure for nominating someone not in shape.

Have you read the policy on nominations for full-time service, and what the Reserve CoC can (and cannot) do?
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Re: Paid Physical Fitness Time?
« Reply #72 on: May 08, 2016, 16:32:12 »
You're telling me if someone is a fat slob, they're entitled to be nominated by their chain for a deployment? What kind of bizzaro world is that? I had a job interview to get a contract for workup training, and had to earn a spot as a Det comd, otherwise I would have deployed as a Cpl.

Those working restrictive hours should reconsider employment in the Reserves then. If they can't devote a couple hours a week to fitness, they're likely too busy to train effectively or be called up when required. They're also likely too busy to prevent a heart attack in their 40s as well.

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Re: Paid Physical Fitness Time?
« Reply #73 on: May 08, 2016, 16:35:27 »
Those working restrictive hours should reconsider employment in the Reserves then. If they can't devote a couple hours a week to fitness, they're likely too busy to train effectively or be called up when required. They're also likely too busy to prevent a heart attack in their 40s as well.

Sorry, talking at cross purposes here.  I'm referring to those who can and do train, and would use military facilities if they could, but military facilities close at say 1800, so they have to go elsewhere.
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Re: Paid Physical Fitness Time?
« Reply #74 on: May 08, 2016, 16:47:56 »
Sorry, talking at cross purposes here.  I'm referring to those who can and do train, and would use military facilities if they could, but military facilities close at say 1800, so they have to go elsewhere.

Thats not on. Any military fitness facility should be open 0530 to 2200 daily. The extra couple hours at $15/h or so per employee is money in the bank when you consider saved costs from a fit military member, even if they are a Cl A reservist.