Author Topic: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)  (Read 635257 times)

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Offline Colin P

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #2375 on: December 22, 2018, 15:08:26 »
If RCAF took over training again and made flight instructors military (maintainers could be mixed) that perhaps would give some stability in postings and remove a post service career that lures people away? 

Offline Quirky

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #2376 on: December 22, 2018, 17:06:09 »
Perhaps a F-15X would be an easier sell to the Canadian public, regardless of the higher price. It would be a proven airframe and twin-engined for those "long arctic patrols" that Canadians seem to think is a necessity. Not to mention the F-15 would win the beauty contest vs the F35 which is more important than actual capability in Canada. The fanbois would rejoice!

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #2377 on: December 22, 2018, 18:14:20 »
If RCAF took over training again and made flight instructors military (maintainers could be mixed) that perhaps would give some stability in postings and remove a post service career that lures people away?

Instructors are military already.

Offline CBH99

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #2378 on: December 22, 2018, 20:03:00 »
If Boeing delivers on it's promise to provide an airframe with 20,000 hours of service life - and reduced maintenance to the point that part of the fleet pays itself off due to drastically reduced maintenance...it might not be a bad choice.

I'm nowhere near an expert, and I would absolutely defer to someone like SupersonicMax on issues such as these.


But since NORAD tends to be our # 1 priority, and we don't deploy much more than a 6 pack outside of the country, and haven't been involved in any "Day 1" types of air operations for at least decades now... a state-of-the-art F15 with reduced maintenance, increased performance, and a long service life might not be a bad choice at all??

Does what we need it to do.  Perhaps an easier sell to the public.  And, because we can't seem to move ahead on any major purchases in a timely manner, buys us a bit of a safety margin a few decades from now with the increased airframe hours already built in?
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Offline MarkOttawa

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #2379 on: December 22, 2018, 20:43:58 »
Plus F-15X would have an awful lot of missiles to go after those Russkie arrows (and to carry more than small load F-35A has to go non-stealthy with external carriage, lots less dash speed--see 'Lockheed Touts Non-Existent "Beast Mode" F-35 Configuration With 16 Air-To-Air Missiles' http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/17250/lockheed-touts-non-existent-beast-mode-f-35-configuration-with-16-air-to-air-missiles ):

Quote
Boeing's Newest F-15 Packs More Than Two Dozen Missiles
...

https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/aviation/a22355833/boeing-new-f-15x/

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Offline SupersonicMax

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #2380 on: December 22, 2018, 20:47:29 »
The F-15E (or one of its upgraded versions) has always been my #1 choice.  Long legs, lots of weapons, good EA/EP.  Good for both NORAD and NATO.

I disagree wih your assessment that we aren’t a first day of the war kind of country.  We were there the first day in Kosovo and would have been in Libya and Iraq if we had been positionned closer sooner.  Having said this, this could be suitable with support from the US.

Offline Baz

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #2381 on: December 22, 2018, 21:05:30 »
Um... built by Boeing.  Isn't Justin still mad at them?  I don't think Bombardier getting around Boeing by getting tself bought by Airbus has put Boeing back into the good books yet has it?
But, of course, business is business and politics is politics, so if it is a neat and tidy solution it will all be water under the bridge...

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #2382 on: December 22, 2018, 21:39:19 »
I would also be good with the F-15E Strike Eagle (or some upgraded derivative like the "Silent Eagle") for many of the same reasons upthread. One thing to consider is a large aircraft like the Strike Eagle could also carry several of the "Stealth" weapons pods demonstrated by the Advanced Super Hornet to gain advantages of stealth, and probably improve the overall performance by reducing drag.
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Offline MarkOttawa

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #2383 on: December 22, 2018, 22:21:52 »
Consider this about the F-15:

Quote
McDonnell Aircraft formalized the concept for the F-15 in 1967 when the company was selected to enter the second phase of the U.S Air Force's FX competition...
https://www.boeing.com/history/products/f-15-eagle.page

What else is still being manufactured and going (pretty strong) after FIFTY-ONE years? Ma Deuce springs to mind, C-130 too. Amazing but what does it say about military technology? Honest question. Some overall designs for certain uses just that good and not much further progress can be made at any reasonable cost?

Consider also the configuration of the jet airliner; this from 1952 (SIXTY-SIX years ago):

Quote
"...
Work proceeded quickly after the formal start of the project on May 20, 1952. The 367-80 mated a large cabin based on the dimensions of the C-97 with the 35-degree swept-wing design based on the wings of the B-47 and B-52..."


https://airandspace.si.edu/collection-objects/boeing-367-80-jet-transport

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« Last Edit: December 22, 2018, 22:36:01 by MarkOttawa »
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Offline SupersonicMax

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #2384 on: December 22, 2018, 23:48:08 »
Think of the F-15E as the Super Hornet of the F-15 family and the upgraded F-15E (SG, SA, SE) as the Super Hornet of the F-15E family.  Different aircraft altogether.  It is two generation beyond the F-15A/B/C/D.

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #2385 on: December 23, 2018, 08:40:05 »
I was in Bagotville in the 1970's when one of the hot off the press F-15's flew in. Over the top impressive, particularly for that point in aviation. Intakes covered to protect their secret design we were told. A beautiful aircraft with a large "Wow" factor.  :christmas happy:

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #2386 on: December 23, 2018, 09:50:53 »
Boeing has 3 ‘Half Century+’ platforms: B-52, CH-47 and (cheating slightly, but it’ll make it comfortably in a couple years) F-15.  When a design approaches or represents a near-perfect functional solution, it tends to hang around.

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Offline Colin P

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #2387 on: December 23, 2018, 12:14:11 »
Instructors are military already.

Thanks, so the aircraft are owned and maintained by the contractor, but the instructors are military?

Offline SupersonicMax

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #2388 on: December 23, 2018, 14:42:01 »
Yes!

Offline MilEME09

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #2389 on: December 24, 2018, 09:47:59 »
https://defence-blog.com/news/u-s-air-force-plans-to-buy-newest-f-15-x-fighter-aircraft.html/amp

Looks like the US is investing in the F-15X, 20,000 flying hours on the airframe is pretty impressive, and the low cost, wonder if the F-15X might be the new Freedom Fighter? Low cost easy to maintain plane to sell to allies.
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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #2390 on: December 24, 2018, 10:57:33 »
How is it low cost? That purchase price is $100M USD for the USAF, and then allies would be paying a FMS surcharge between 7.5 and 15%. F35 is $85M USD with no FMS surcharge.

I'm willing to bet itll be offered to countries they dont trust with the classified info in the F35.

Offline YZT580

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #2391 on: December 24, 2018, 12:15:47 »
I would think that $100m for a limited run of 12 would be quite cheap.  What happens to the price if you ordered say 85?

Offline GR66

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #2392 on: December 24, 2018, 12:19:29 »
How is it low cost? That purchase price is $100M USD for the USAF, and then allies would be paying a FMS surcharge between 7.5 and 15%. F35 is $85M USD with no FMS surcharge.

I'm willing to bet itll be offered to countries they dont trust with the classified info in the F35.

From the article:

"The F-15X is also set to be affordable, coming in at “well below” the $95 million cost of the F-35A. The newest Eagle would cost about $27,000 per hour to fly—again, well below the $45,000 an hour to fly the F-35A. Finally, Boeing claims that the F-15X will have a whopping 20,000-hour service life, enabling it to serve for decades. By comparison, the original F-15 was built to serve only 5,000 hours."

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #2393 on: December 24, 2018, 12:32:05 »
The article is guessing at a price instead of using current pricing for both aircraft. That USAF order was $100M per aircraft, F-35A recent lot contract was $85M a plane. The F15X flying hour cost is an estimate, where current open source info has the F35A coming in at approx $35K USD per flying hour, not the unsubstantiated $45K from the article.

Offline MilEME09

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #2394 on: December 26, 2018, 16:48:22 »
https://www.google.com/amp/amp.timeinc.net/thedrive/the-war-zone/22372/exclusive-unmasking-the-f-15x-boeings-f-15c-d-eagle-replacement-fighter%3fsource=dam

While not qouting an official price, the article above goes onto more detail and states boeing is offering a fixed price contract.
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Offline YZT580

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #2395 on: December 26, 2018, 17:03:00 »
Could very well come in at the prices quoted.  Boeing has been getting very competitive lately with their pricing in all areas: civil and military.

Offline MarkOttawa

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #2396 on: December 26, 2018, 19:15:45 »
This apparent Boeing pricing strategy could also apply to F-15X:

Quote
Is Boeing’s ‘Eye-Watering’ T-X Bid A Game-Changer?

...Boeing’s win of the U.S. Air Force’s T-X trainer also may mark a turning point for the business model at the company’s defense division.

Much as commercial aero engine companies moved years ago toward selling their powerplants below cost to secure marketshare, with the intent of making money later on aftermarket services, Boeing Defense may be headed in the same direction.

The relatively low-bid strategy for T-X...
http://aviationweek.com/defense/boeing-s-eye-watering-t-x-bid-game-changer

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Offline MilEME09

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #2397 on: December 26, 2018, 21:24:39 »
Wonder if they may try to offer rhe f15x to the RCAF? would probably make it to the compitition
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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #2398 on: December 26, 2018, 22:41:54 »
You think we should entertain a Boeing bid after the tariffs they got issued in the CS300?

Offline YZT580

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #2399 on: December 26, 2018, 23:00:18 »
From Trudeau's viewpoint it appears cheaper and it isn't the F35 so it is a win-win.  After all the voters have already forgotten about the CS300 since it is now a french airplane.