Author Topic: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)  (Read 647902 times)

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Offline PuckChaser

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #2400 on: December 26, 2018, 23:34:27 »
Considering how far they're pushed the procurement, I doubt Trudeau will get a third term, especially with his second term in doubt.

Offline Dimsum

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #2401 on: January 05, 2019, 16:35:19 »
This has been making the social media rounds lately.

https://imgur.com/zKM5FxR
Philip II of Macedon to Spartans (346 BC):  "You are advised to submit without further delay, for if I bring my army into your land, I will destroy your farms, slay your people, and raze your city."

Reply:  "If."

Offline Quirky

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #2402 on: January 05, 2019, 16:41:15 »
This has been making the social media rounds lately.

https://imgur.com/zKM5FxR

Don’t need to be a current/ex pilot to come to that conclusion. All the current press about lack of pilots, techs and the purchase of used jets being pure political bullshit has been fairly accurate.

Offline Baz

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #2403 on: January 05, 2019, 20:32:15 »
A quick internet search says there are at least nine in storage, but they haven't had the aiframe life extension or systems update.  Given the content of that letter it isn't clear that the Aussie ones have either.  I wonder if we could of bought less to fill the "gap" and used some of our own?

Offline SupersonicMax

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #2404 on: January 05, 2019, 21:27:32 »
Who posted the rant?  Fighter pilot?

Offline Dimsum

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #2405 on: January 05, 2019, 22:16:16 »
Who posted the rant?  Fighter pilot?

Not sure.  That screencap is literally all that I saw. 
Philip II of Macedon to Spartans (346 BC):  "You are advised to submit without further delay, for if I bring my army into your land, I will destroy your farms, slay your people, and raze your city."

Reply:  "If."

Offline MarkOttawa

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #2406 on: January 07, 2019, 15:36:31 »
First part of article on F-35 and USAF, RAAF, RAF--also FCAS and Airbus; RCAF officer seems a tad optimistic:

Quote
Recrafting the Fighter role

It’s clear that combat capabilities and operations are being recrafted across the globe and, as operational contexts change, the evolution of the role of fighters is at the center of that shift. This year’s International Fighter Conference held in Berlin provided a chance to focus on the role of fighters in the strategic shift from land wars to higher intensity operations. The baseline assumption for the conference can be simply put: air superiority can no longer be assumed, and needs to be created in contested environments.

Competitors like China and Russia are putting significant effort into shaping concepts of operations and modernizing force structures which will allow them to challenge the ability of liberal democracies to establish air superiority and to dominate future crises...

RCAF of the Future
...
The Canadian officer clearly embraced the core point of the conference, namely, the need to operate in a much different combat air environment. He underscored that the operational environment was becoming more lethal and complex, in which advanced fighters would need to be able to operate in an anti-access area denial surface-to-air missile environment, with cyber threats, contested control of the electro magnetic spectrum, and in the presence of the proliferation of technologically advanced equipment.

Canada faces a number of funding and commitment challenges to deal with the new strategic situation.

To operate in this environment with its allies and to contribute to NATO capability, as well as to defend Canada, the RCAF would clearly need an upgrade across the force, both the joint and the combat air force. This new force would consist of several new platforms, which clearly would need to operate in a teaming context such as described by both the F-35 and Airbus representatives.

The RCAF of the future is projected to consist of 88 new advanced fighter aircraft; a next generation multi-mission aircraft (CP-140 replacement); a next generation air-to-air tanker transport; new utility transport aircraft; a range of remotely piloted systems; and integrated space capabilities within the combat force (global satellite communications, surveillance of space and ISR).

Interestingly, this officer focused on a key challenge – one that is often overlooked, but where the RCAF can lead the way, not just for Canada but in terms of working with the British, the Americans and Pacific allies in terms of training for operations in the extended battlespace. He noted that the Canadian Forces Aerospace Warfare Centre (CFAWC) is currently developing the RCAF way ahead related to exercises and training – with Live Virtual Constructive Training being key to this. And they are doing so in an intelligent fashion, starting with near term virtual add-ons to Exercise Maple Flag, and laying the foundation for a continuing transformation effort for training of Canadian and allied air forces.

He identified a number of opportunities that can be developed and leveraged by the RCAF. These included: Cold Lake Air Weapons Range project, the Future Lead-in Trainer project, the Future Fighter Capability Project, the Future Aircrew Training (FAcT) project (mentioned elsewhere in this edition), and leveraging the Distributed Mission Operations Centre.

In short, significant innovation will characterize the way ahead as peer competitors confront each other and adjust to each other’s capabilities and performance in combat. The decade of innovation ahead will clearly lay the foundation for the next.

– Robbin Laird is a US Defense Analyst and frequent contributor to FrontLine Defence.
https://defence.frontline.online/article/2018/6/10980-Recrafting-the-Fighter-role

Mark
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Offline Colin P

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #2407 on: January 07, 2019, 16:55:49 »
Meanwhile Russian and Chinese fighters/bombers face very few ground based Air Defenses, all our eggs are in one basket.

Offline daftandbarmy

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #2408 on: January 07, 2019, 17:30:50 »
First part of article on F-35 and USAF, RAAF, RAF--also FCAS and Airbus; RCAF officer seems a tad optimistic:

Mark
Ottawa


"The power of an air force is terrific when there is nothing to oppose it."

Winston Churchill

 :nod:
"The most important qualification of a soldier is fortitude under fatigue and privation. Courage is only second; hardship, poverty and want are the best school for a soldier." Napoleon

Offline EStrike101

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #2409 on: January 08, 2019, 12:52:55 »
Someone did a thesis on JAS39 for Canada

Quote
"Abstract
Prime Minister Pierre Trudeau ordered 138 CF-18 fighter jets in 1980. As of September 2018, 76 modernized CF-18s remain in service. Over the past two decades, four different Prime Ministers have been involved in selecting a replacement for the CF-18. With a purchase price of over $16 billion and a potential total lifetime cost of over $40 billion, the CF-18 replacement will be the second most expensive military procurement in Canadian history. Not only will the CF-18 replacement program have to fight for funding against the general austerity and easy riding nature of Canadians, but it will also be running concurrently with the largest military procurement in Canadian history: The National Shipbuilding Strategy. This paper reviews the history of Canadian military procurement, with emphasis on the successful New Fighter Aircraft (NFA) program of the 1970s that selected the CF-18, and how those lessons should be applied to the CF-18 replacement. This paper argues that, absent the political will to provide considerably more than 1.15% of GDP in defence spending, the Canadian Forces can no longer afford to be a modern multipurpose force and should instead move to a Navy centric force structure. By reviewing how the CF-18 serves at home on the NORAD mission, in Europe on NATO air policing missions, and as part of coalition combat missions; the minimum requirements for the CF-18 replacement are identified. This paper recommends employing the NFA methodology to design a defence policy for easy riders. Such a defence policy will meet military objectives with best value, state-of-the-art technology that also offers full industrial offsets for Canadian industry. The best value solution to the CF-18 replacement is the least expensive jet in the competition: the Saab Gripen."

https://prism.ucalgary.ca/handle/1880/109313?fbclid=IwAR1Wh0-PEUaATRyVOfWhXRWJSkgfOUYWyG7DI8y5ehxc53IEZynFZMLBkvg


I dont know how well it reflects fighter pilots thoughts here (that jas39 is the best option). Im an infantry guy, so not my cup of tea.

Offline Downhiller229

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #2410 on: January 08, 2019, 16:08:59 »
Someone did a thesis on JAS39 for Canada

https://prism.ucalgary.ca/handle/1880/109313?fbclid=IwAR1Wh0-PEUaATRyVOfWhXRWJSkgfOUYWyG7DI8y5ehxc53IEZynFZMLBkvg


I dont know how well it reflects fighter pilots thoughts here (that jas39 is the best option). Im an infantry guy, so not my cup of tea.

I heard many people say buying the gripen would be the last straw. Straight to the release section. The F-35 can carry a fully loaded gripen

Offline EStrike101

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #2411 on: January 08, 2019, 17:51:00 »
I heard many people say buying the gripen would be the last straw. Straight to the release section. The F-35 can carry a fully loaded gripen

I am aware of F35 capability. Ive been trying to show people in BF4C page. This article is thesis is written by someone from that page.

Offline Hamish Seggie

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #2412 on: January 08, 2019, 18:29:45 »
At this rate the CAF may as well contract the USAF to patrol our skies. This is scandalous and I’m growing more disgusted with this government daily.
Freedom Isn't Free   "Never Shall I Fail My Brothers"

“Do everything that is necessary and nothing that is not".

Offline Ludoc

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #2413 on: January 08, 2019, 18:54:55 »
I heard many people say buying the gripen would be the last straw. Straight to the release section. The F-35 can carry a fully loaded gripen

Then you would have a two engine vehicle. Problem solved, we should by F-35s and Canadianize them by strapping Gripens to them.

Offline Baz

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #2414 on: January 08, 2019, 21:20:02 »
The point of that article is that we can't afford both new ships and new fighters at the same time, correct?

In broad terms, we bought the CF-18s in the early 80s and the frigates in the late 80s.  So it should have been predicted we'd need to replace them in that order.

We were, sort of, on track to do just that; replace the fighters then the ships.  But then we decided to have a "fair and open" competition for the fighters.  Even though as part of a like minded group of nations we had already done that.  I was at Lock Mart in Palmdale while the fly-off was going on with Boeing (they were doing captive hover work)...

So we delayed the fighter acquisition and now it conflicts with the ships.  Being over simplistic, what happened to the money we "saved" by delaying (minus the $500ish million we have to give to the Aussies to close the "capability gap" even though it seems we don't have anyone to fly or fix those "new" jets)???

The cynic in me says this sudden realization of the overlapping procurements might be partially driven by some other agenda... (?)

Offline Good2Golf

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #2415 on: January 08, 2019, 21:26:44 »
It doesn’t overlap substantively.  The money for both programs is paid in phases at key milestones that are not right on top of each other, and the balance owing repayment is distributed over decades in the Canadian Government’s “Fiscal Framework Accrual Space.”

The Professor does not have as much appreciation for how the GoC’s fiscal system works to support (or not) capital procurement as donsome very well-informed people like David Perry.  Perry qualifies well that programs cause pressure, but do not cause “one or the other” type situations.  The real monies being allocated for these programs pale in comparison to Federal monies being expended each year to Debt interest payment and “Payment to Individuals” (CPP, OAS &EI) in the same period. 

:yawn:

Regards
G2G
« Last Edit: January 08, 2019, 21:32:03 by Good2Golf »

Offline Cbbmtt

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #2416 on: January 08, 2019, 21:32:09 »
Overheard at work today that a tech got a 3 year posting with family to dismantle the cf-18's (I believe 8) and ship them back to Canada. I'm thinking the F35's aren't going to happen any time in my time in for the forces. Which is another 20 years lol.
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Offline Quirky

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #2417 on: January 08, 2019, 22:11:50 »
Overheard at work today that a tech got a 3 year posting with family to dismantle the cf-18's (I believe 8) and ship them back to Canada. I'm thinking the F35's aren't going to happen any time in my time in for the forces. Which is another 20 years lol.

What.

Offline Dimsum

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #2418 on: January 08, 2019, 22:29:03 »
Overheard at work today that a tech got a 3 year posting with family to dismantle the cf-18's (I believe 8) and ship them back to Canada. I'm thinking the F35's aren't going to happen any time in my time in for the forces. Which is another 20 years lol.

Plot twist - the posting is Tindal, the Cold Lake of Australia  :rofl:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAAF_Base_Tindal
Philip II of Macedon to Spartans (346 BC):  "You are advised to submit without further delay, for if I bring my army into your land, I will destroy your farms, slay your people, and raze your city."

Reply:  "If."

Offline PuckChaser

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #2419 on: January 09, 2019, 09:09:33 »
What.
Oh, you thought the aircraft we were buying are airworthy? Surprise.

Offline Journeyman

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #2420 on: January 09, 2019, 09:10:34 »
The Professor ….
From his LinkedIn profile, it appears that he is unemployed ("Looking for new Opportunities'), having just graduated from Calgary's Master of Public Policy program.


...although he may have acquired some military insights as an Air Cadet 2Lt "2007 CFB Trenton 'Masters of the Felt' Crud Champion."   ;D
There’s nothing more maddening than debating someone who doesn’t know history, doesn’t read books, and frames their myopia as virtue. The level of unapologetic conjecture I’ve encountered lately isn’t just frustrating, it’s retrogressive, unprecedented, and absolutely terrifying.
~Chris Evans

Offline LoboCanada

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #2421 on: January 09, 2019, 13:00:44 »
Why are you going into the authors background???

I thought it was well written and provided a decent argument. Certainly did their research.

What's so wrong with the Grippen? Alittle older in some ways but I don't understand the hate.

Offline RDBZ

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #2422 on: January 09, 2019, 15:10:05 »
Oh, you thought the aircraft we were buying are airworthy? Surprise.

The deal includes seven (of 25 total) aircraft that are to be broken down and used for spares.   Might as well do that in Aus.

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #2423 on: January 09, 2019, 20:26:06 »
Plot twist - the posting is Tindal, the Cold Lake of Australia  :rofl:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAAF_Base_Tindal

And in keeping with the spirit of that upside down and backwards country - it is neither cold nor does it have a lake.   :whistle:

Corks might be required.

"Wyrd bið ful aræd"

Offline RDBZ

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Re: The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)
« Reply #2424 on: January 09, 2019, 21:02:51 »
And in keeping with the spirit of that upside down and backwards country - it is neither cold nor does it have a lake.   :whistle:

Corks might be required.



The only folk ever to be seen in Australia wearing hats with corks are foreign tourists. So yes, a hat like that will certainly let the locals know you’ve only just arrived in country...   ;D