Author Topic: Dutch ships and designs and the possibilities for Canada  (Read 39129 times)

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Offline Karel Doorman

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Dutch ships and designs and the possibilities for Canada
« on: January 09, 2016, 14:32:23 »
First and foremost a good evening to everyone here,i'm new here on the forum(so excuse me if this has been asked earlier)

I!used to be in the RNLAF but not anymore(that was a long time ago,used to be with 3GGW(Guided  Weapons Group)327 sq based in Blomberg Germany(patriots)and was a Stinger shooter)First as Inlisted later(4 yrs)professional,went to the Gulf(Dessert Storm)

My interest always lied with the Navy,howecome?my family(father and uncles where  marines(divers,elitetroopes,etc),so far for introducing myself.  [:D

Here's my question:

Since Canada and us did co develop (or wanted to)a few things ,what i can't understand is why Canada didn't buy the same kit as us(or the Germans for that matter),i mean we worked together on the developement of the APAR,JSS and neither are availeble now for the Canadians,seems weird to me(because we have a same sort of nay(small,with not a lot of money,but sort of similar demands)

What also always surprised me was when you bought the Oberon replacements noone looked at our Walrus(strange because it was considered the most advanced conventional submarine when they came out)great range,stealthy and i might add looked perfect for the Canadian Navy aswell.

So in short you could've had :

-Walrus class subs(that worked,first time right)
-Zeven Provincien Class Frigates/F124 Sachens
-A JSS(or maybe more),Karel Doorman Class
-and for OPV's the Hollands
-Enforcer LPD'S

I mean you started to do things together with us and could have had a very modern(not big) navy

And could've worked together with the replacements(comming ahead)

Hope i didn't offend anyone,just wanted to know why(since Canada has allways been more "european" orientatet then f.i. the USA.(sorry for my spelling in advance. [:p

gr,Walter

Subject title changed ( to be more descriptive of topic ), as per OP. - mm
« Last Edit: August 31, 2017, 08:12:46 by mariomike »
Karel Doorman(Battle of the Java Sea)

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jollyjacktar

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Re: Hello first(to all)and what i don't understand
« Reply #1 on: January 09, 2016, 14:37:35 »
Hello and welcome, Walter.

The short answer is political will and it must be built in Canada doctrine.  I agree, no cooperation was opportunity lost for both sides and we will be poorer for it in the long run.

Offline Karel Doorman

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Re: Hello first(to all)and what i don't understand
« Reply #2 on: January 09, 2016, 14:44:04 »
Well first let me say th Jolly to your quick respond,Built in Canada ,maybe that was possible(don't know working in tandem with f.i. Damen,Schelde,etc) and for the poorer part i agree we could've worked closely together and "reaped" the benefits.


walter

ps we now face a bow wave in investments(due to postponing new projects here in the Netherlands)for example replacement Walrus,M class,Alkmaaar Class,a new LPD/JSS,etc(so the the "political will"to invest in defence is as "great" or even less over here(i'm actally concerned about the KM,since we were allways a great seafaring nation,now an in the past equall might i add to England,France,Spain,certainly in the past we seem to loose all that)
« Last Edit: January 09, 2016, 14:52:42 by Karel Doorman »
Karel Doorman(Battle of the Java Sea)

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jollyjacktar

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Re: Hello first(to all)and what i don't understand
« Reply #3 on: January 09, 2016, 14:53:18 »
There is always hope, Walter, that as doors of opportunity open up we will walk through and take advantage of them.

Offline Blackadder1916

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Re: Hello first(to all)and what i don't understand
« Reply #4 on: January 09, 2016, 15:42:15 »


What also always surprised me was when you bought the Oberon replacements noone looked at our Walrus(strange because it was considered the most advanced conventional submarine when they came out)great range,stealthy and i might add looked perfect for the Canadian Navy aswell.


We did look at the Walrus class.

http://www.parl.gc.ca/content/hoc/Committee/381/NDDN/Reports/RP1773092/nddnrp01/nddnrp01-e.pdf
Quote
Thus, in the early 1990s, the Navy again found itself looking for a
replacement for its old Oberons. Vice-Admiral (Retired) Peter Cairns, who was the
commander of Maritime Forces Pacific and later commander of the Navy prior to his
retirement in 1994, confirmed in his testimony to the Committee that between 1989
and 1993, the Navy examined many types of conventionally powered submarines
as possible replacements for the Oberons. The candidates included the Walrus
class submarine produced in the Netherlands, the German Type 209 and the
British-made Upholder class then entering service with the Royal Navy.
The Navy
favoured submarines with enough range and other capabilities to operate in the
oceans far from their home port rather than those designed more for coastal
defence.

Why did Canada go the route that it did for replacement of the O-boats?  Money.

Quote
The supporters of the acquisition point out that the significant submarine
capability provided by the Upholders was obtained at a fraction of the costs Canada
would have incurred if it had purchased new submarines from a foreign shipyard or
had contracted a Canadian company or a consortium of companies to construct
them in this country.
The option chosen by Australia which involved the selection of
a foreign hull design, in this case Swedish, the construction of the new vessels in
Australia, and the design and manufacture by Australian companies of the
electronic and other equipment installed in the submarine, with all the integration
problems this entailed, has often been cited during the Committee’s meetings on the
acquisition. As in Canada, Australia’s acquisition of submarines is very
controversial, but for different reasons. Australia has constructed six new Collins
class submarines at a total cost of over A$5 billion, but the planned expenditures for
2003-2004 included another A$773.7 million for additional work to correct the
shortcomings identified in initial trials and in an Australian government report.36
Indeed, Australia is also receiving help from the U.S. Navy to rectify some of the
problems. Thus, Australia has acquired six new submarines at a cost of almost
A$1 billion each while Canada acquired four relatively new vessels for
$800 million.37 For the advocates of the Upholder acquisition, the low costs of the
purchase compared to the significant sums being paid by Australia and other
countries to build new submarines from scratch highlights the advantages of this
purchase. The problems encountered by the Australians have also been used to
illustrate the potential pitfalls of constructing new submarines and the complexity of
submarine technology, if only to show that Canada’s submarine problems are not
unique.

It is only hindsight that shows the obstacles that resulted from this decision.  At the time, the options were probably either cheap subs or no subs.

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Offline Karel Doorman

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Re: Hello first(to all)and what i don't understand
« Reply #5 on: January 09, 2016, 16:16:14 »
Thanks Blackadder,for your response?

All is offcourse in hindsight. 8)

Nobody new at the time that these "things" would be as good as they've shown to be.(Walrus),but on the other hand someone must have known(we've operated subs for more than 100 years now,so(without sounding to proud)we've must have known how to built these things.(remember snorkel?)

gr,walter
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Offline Underway

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Re: Hello first(to all)and what i don't understand
« Reply #6 on: January 10, 2016, 13:06:00 »
The APAR window is still open and with the new shipbuilding strategy going on we will most likely pick that for our new main radar (fingers crossed).  As for other things Canada has worked closely with the Dutch in the past for many things regarding military procurement,  you bought our old Chinooks, we bought your old tanks and both armies use the C-7 and C-9, with a few local mods.

But at the end of the day its a political decision regarding purchases for many things.

Offline AlexanderM

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Re: Hello first(to all)and what i don't understand
« Reply #7 on: January 10, 2016, 15:06:38 »
The APAR window is still open and with the new shipbuilding strategy going on we will most likely pick that for our new main radar (fingers crossed).  As for other things Canada has worked closely with the Dutch in the past for many things regarding military procurement,  you bought our old Chinooks, we bought your old tanks and both armies use the C-7 and C-9, with a few local mods.

But at the end of the day its a political decision regarding purchases for many things.
I would hope so, as we've been a partner on APAR since day one. Also, when they complete the upgrade on the Smart-L the range will be way beyond any other system.

Offline Chris Pook

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Re: Hello first(to all)and what i don't understand
« Reply #8 on: January 10, 2016, 15:40:21 »
Walter

You are asking the same questions many of us have been asking on this site for a long while.

One thing that has always come up, along with the politics, is the money.

You are brilliantly placed to answer a couple of questions.

Can you come up with the real price - as paid out of the Dutch treasury - for each of those vessels you named?  Both capital and operating costs if you can find them.

And the second question is:

I understand that the Dutch decided to stop seeking industrial offsets (kickbacks from suppliers to the national economy) because it was not found to be cost effective.  Can you confirm that and find any relevant government reports?  I remember seeing one a long time back but I lost it.

Cheers, Chris.
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Offline Karel Doorman

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Re: Hello first(to all)and what i don't understand
« Reply #9 on: January 11, 2016, 08:35:39 »
Walter

You are asking the same questions many of us have been asking on this site for a long while.

One thing that has always come up, along with the politics, is the money.

You are brilliantly placed to answer a couple of questions.

Can you come up with the real price - as paid out of the Dutch treasury - for each of those vessels you named?  Both capital and operating costs if you can find them.

And the second question is:

I understand that the Dutch decided to stop seeking industrial offsets (kickbacks from suppliers to the national economy) because it was not found to be cost effective.  Can you confirm that and find any relevant government reports?  I remember seeing one a long time back but I lost it.

Cheers, Chris.

Well first of all th all for the answers:

And Chris i will look for those numbers(if possible),as for "actively"searching for kick backs,well it's still said that 1 or the other(plane for example)is better for our economy so i think whether or not it's true,they will stay it to the public.
My personal vieuw for example to the F-35 ,is why did we choose such an expensive plane(even co opped in a then non exicisting plane),i mean 140 milj(euros )a pop is ludacrous.

Here are some porjectcosts(no inflacion)

Group Force Commander leiding kan geven aan operaties. De twee andere LCF’n zijn voorbereid voor
deze command & control-faciliteiten.
Een vergelijking van de verschillende projecten, resultaten en projectkosten per land:
Land Projectnaam Aantal Tonnage Lengte In dienst € per stuk
NL LCF 4 6200 144 2002 – 2005 525 miljoen
Spanje F-100 4 6250 147 2002 – 2005 600 miljoen
Duitsland F-124 3 5700 143 2003 – 2006 700 miljoen
Italië Orrizonte 2 5600 153 2007 – 2008 700 miljoen
Frankrijk Horizon 2 5600 153 2008 – 2009 1,35 miljard
GB Type 45 6 8000 153 2009 – 2012 1,2 miljard
De projectkosten zijn niet voor inflatie gecorrigeerd


gr,walter

ps,it's :country-name of project-number-weight-length-year-price per ship.

will look for operating cost(if poss)
« Last Edit: January 11, 2016, 08:38:16 by Karel Doorman »
Karel Doorman(Battle of the Java Sea)

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Offline Karel Doorman

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Re: Hello first(to all)and what i don't understand
« Reply #10 on: January 11, 2016, 08:45:27 »
Hi all,

and found something about the KD(JSS)


Our government by postponing a decision about this vessel made "sure" it costed a lot more then originally planned:


Het schip dat oorspronkelijk zo'n 250 miljoen euro zou kosten, kostte 407,9 miljoen. (it says orig. planned 250 milj.actually,let's say 408 milj.

gr,walter
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Offline Chris Pook

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Re: Hello first(to all)and what i don't understand
« Reply #11 on: January 11, 2016, 09:47:33 »
Many thanks Walter.
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Offline Karel Doorman

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Re: Hello first(to all)and what i don't understand
« Reply #12 on: January 11, 2016, 14:16:54 »
Many thanks Walter.

Here's another one(complete)

Walrus-class subs:procurement (in 1994' money)2 billion for 4,makes 500 million a pop.Latest updates 100 million.(optics,sonar,masts,electronics)

Post   Kosten per jaar (in miljoenen euro's)(costs per annum in million euros)
Personele kosten *   19,65         (personal,375 pplxwages of about 50K euros+alowances)
Jaarlijks onderhoud   10             (yearly maintenance)
Op zee en buitenland **   0,6    (fuell,logistical)at sea and abroad     
Instandhoudingsprogramma ***   2,9  (maintenaceprogrammes) for life of 35 yrs(divided)
Afschrijvingen ****   25                   (depreciation) excl rest worth
Totaal   58,15 miljoen euro
* 375 pers. x middelloon van 50.000 euro plus vaartoelagen
** brandstof, logistiek, etc.
*** bij gemiddelde levensduur ozbt van 35 jaar
**** excl. restwaarde

this number is about 0.83% of total defencebudget(about 7 billion)
every sub has about 50 ppl on board.

gr,walter

ps will search further. ;D
« Last Edit: January 11, 2016, 14:21:27 by Karel Doorman »
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Offline Karel Doorman

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Re: Hello first(to all)and what i don't understand
« Reply #13 on: January 13, 2016, 00:55:54 »
We did look at the Walrus class.

http://www.parl.gc.ca/content/hoc/Committee/381/NDDN/Reports/RP1773092/nddnrp01/nddnrp01-e.pdf
Why did Canada go the route that it did for replacement of the O-boats?  Money.

It is only hindsight that shows the obstacles that resulted from this decision.  At the time, the options were probably either cheap subs or no subs.

And sorry if i'm repeating Blackadder,but at the time of our procurement they(Walrus)were about 500 million a pop not 800 for the Upholders,so at the time they were "cheaper"(don't know offcourse what Canada would've had to pay for them,but the logicall thing says,for me,if the series was not 4 but let's say 8 i think they would've been even "cheaper")
-And worked first time around flawlessly,nothing else heard myself(ever since actually),more money saved 
But as said hindsight,just such a shame.(we could've worked on upgrading them together(mony saved again,etc,etc)

Here's a "kicker" from what i've heard(will look into this because it ineterests me too,)the US was also interested in the designplans for the Walrus,but the Dutch wouldn't "fork" them over for zilch.

gr,walter
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Offline Sheep Dog AT

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Re: Hello first(to all)and what i don't understand
« Reply #14 on: January 13, 2016, 01:11:28 »
KD could you possibly in the future put a space between letters and brackets. KY jelly(is ok)but not your best option vs. Astroglide (is the cats pyjamas) as many will attest. Same deal with comma's and periods. This is ok,but harder to read. Vs. I'm not trying to be an ***, but I can appreciate people thinking that.
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Offline Karel Doorman

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Re: Hello first(to all)and what i don't understand
« Reply #15 on: January 13, 2016, 02:22:08 »
KD could you possibly in the future put a space between letters and brackets. KY jelly(is ok)but not your best option vs. Astroglide (is the cats pyjamas) as many will attest. Same deal with comma's and periods. This is ok,but harder to read. Vs. I'm not trying to be an ***, but I can appreciate people thinking that.

Sheep Dog  th and i will try to do that,no probs.

gr,walter
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Offline Karel Doorman

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Re: Hello first(to all)and what i don't understand
« Reply #16 on: January 13, 2016, 15:06:36 »
Here's a(unbiased )view on the frigates of the world.(seems like we're doing OK,for such a small navy)  [:D

http://defencyclopedia.com/2016/01/02/top-10-most-powerful-frigates-in-the-world/
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Offline Blackadder1916

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Re: Hello first(to all)and what i don't understand
« Reply #17 on: January 13, 2016, 17:02:56 »
And sorry if i'm repeating Blackadder,but at the time of our procurement they(Walrus)were about 500 million a pop not 800 for the Upholders,so at the time they were "cheaper"(don't know offcourse what Canada would've had to pay for them,but the logicall thing says,for me,if the series was not 4 but let's say 8 i think they would've been even "cheaper")

I think you may have misunderstood the link that I provided in my previous post.  While the actual dollar amount may not be as identified in that 2004 parliamentary report, the $800 million figure that they used for the acquisition cost of the used Upholders was for all four boats (i.e. $200 m per sub).  Now compare that to your quoted "$500 million a pop" for the Walrus class (which I understand is for each submarine).  Additionally the original hoped for purchase plan included unique financial arrangements, which, however, did not turn out as planned - though it was probably a good selling point in getting government (and public) approval for the sub replacements.

Quote
financing arrangements included an eight-year, interest-free, lease-to-buy
arrangement, a bartering “of Canadian lease payments on the four submarines for
the costs charged to the U.K. for continued training of British Forces in Canada at
bases in Wainwright, Suffield and Goose Bay” (according to the backgrounder), and
a nominal sum at the end of the lease of one pound Sterling to purchase each
submarine.
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Offline Karel Doorman

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Re: Hello first(to all)and what i don't understand
« Reply #18 on: January 14, 2016, 00:24:56 »
I think you may have misunderstood the link that I provided in my previous post.  While the actual dollar amount may not be as identified in that 2004 parliamentary report, the $800 million figure that they used for the acquisition cost of the used Upholders was for all four boats (i.e. $200 m per sub).  Now compare that to your quoted "$500 million a pop" for the Walrus class (which I understand is for each submarine).  Additionally the original hoped for purchase plan included unique financial arrangements, which, however, did not turn out as planned - though it was probably a good selling point in getting government (and public) approval for the sub replacements.

Ah OK,as you said i misunderstood you/link.Thought it was 800 million a piece,and the additional financial arrangements.(strong selling tactics from the Brits)
« Last Edit: January 14, 2016, 00:28:45 by Karel Doorman »
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Offline Karel Doorman

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Re: Hello first(to all)and what i don't understand
« Reply #19 on: February 17, 2016, 01:00:32 »
Ok Boys and Girls(sorry couldn't help myself   >:D )and i'll keep the updates(Dutch Navy) in this thread,if it's allright for everybody here.

In the next 2.5 months there will be talks in parliament about the replacement of the Walrus class(about 2025),budgetwise, now there is  2.5 Billion for 4 in the kitty (which is way to small a budget)

will be around the 3000 tons,and at least the same capability as the Walrus(diving depth,stealth,etc)but offcourse modernized and when possible better.(AIP is not a wish,because of the latest battery developments)

Maybe an opportunity for Canada as well?

Publieksbijeenkomst over Onderzeedient

http://www.kvmo.nl/nieuws/nieuws-kvmo/item/328-publieksbijeenkomst-over-onderzeedient.html

This was the open public meeting about the sub service.

Let's hope it will all go well(but i think NAVO will push for new subs,at least 4,were/are too important for NAVO)

Whislist of the subservice(AIP is not as important anymore,is about 1 year old)

Wishes Submarine In 2015, the requirements of the navy be drawn to the new submarines. These are called staff requirements. In anticipation summed Group Senior Submarine KTZ Hugo Ammerlaan wishes that he had, during an interview in mid-2014 Marineschepen.nl: (See here for the full article.) - Broadly the same hull as the Walrus class; - Technically at the level of 2025; - As quiet as other submarines in 2025; - Ample space for special forces with their equipment; - More room for crewmembers; - Air Independent Propulsion (besides diesels); - A means / weapon in order also to give a warning (with torpedoes can not, of course); - Weapon against helicopters; - Missile against ships and other targets on the coast (no weapon as Tomahawk); - Upper and underwater drones; - Internet above and below water; - A real galley space and no food or only microwave ovens; - Technology should be compatible with the above-water ships; - Suitable for men and women

The building of these new boats will be  simultaneously with Sweden and Norway.


« Last Edit: February 17, 2016, 01:42:08 by Karel Doorman »
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Offline Karel Doorman

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Re: Hello first(to all)and what i don't understand
« Reply #20 on: March 04, 2016, 18:01:00 »
So the things are heating up(Walrus replacement)this is from the dutch defence forum in wich we discussed the subject;From the Volkskrant part on is my reaction on the matter.
 Opposition fears' second JSF to purchase submarines [/ b]

The intention of Defence to allocate at least 2.5 billion euros for the purchase of four submarines meets with skepticism by several opposition parties in parliament. They fear a repeat of the problems that occurred previously when purchasing the JSF fighter and emphasize that it regards them 'no done deal yet. " But the coalition seems to already.

Defence Spokesman Van Dijk of the SP says a 'déjà vu' burden by having the JSF, "Even when the submarines you see that as a Lower House fait accompli likely to be placed, and also now that you experience the power of the defense lobby . Who first picks up the minister and then the government parties. Formally, the Chamber has it to say, but can you serious doubts put into practice. " His party is still against buying "expensive submarines.

Scepticism also can be heard at the PVV, "You look at these kinds of projects always that the costs of failure in the long run much higher than originally budgeted. It involves a lot of money, but what we get in return? "Asks the spokesperson Roon himself. At GroenLinks spokesman Grashoff lives not only the fear of high costs (a JSF 2 here lies in wait), but also the conviction that the defense money could be better spent than on submarines. He sees Defence prefer to purchase equipment that can be deployed in UN peacekeeping missions, "Then you have very little of this type of toy. D66 assumes a neutral position - spokesman Belhaj insists above all on "the great importance" of early involvement of the Court and the Ministry of Finance. Purpose: To keep the costs under control.
Positive state CDA MP Raymond Knops, once worked in the Air Force, facing the purchase. He is convinced that submarines have "absolutely positive value. Yet he also thinks it is still too early to give all green light, "First is to determine whether there is a real need for it and what the consequences are for the total defense budget.

For Knops is still far from that Dutch companies should get the billion order. "If this is going to cost a billion extra because we allow it to Dutch companies, I think we should not do it." established the need to purchase, the industry must respect him in the waiting room.

The government parties PvdA and VVD is already talk of green light. Labour spokesman Eijsink speaks of a 'good investment' and points to the ability of the boats' operate unnoticed by the coast, for example, to gather information or to enforce an arms embargo. The VVD, which supports in this regard the plans of their own Minister Hennis was not available for comment Friday.

Volkskrant, March 4 2016, 21:24

These reactions were to be expected from the relevant parties. : Glare:

For Mr. Van Dijk:
-deja vu is nonsense, no foreign project (I hope, I think) so you have better control on the whole,.
No Lockheed Martin who at every turn will tell you that the delivery date is postponed, because (again unexpected) problems that can be solved in the next "block" upgrade which carry an extra charge,again: hrmph:
Besides (and my mind)this aircraft is still not up to expectations (demands) that were made by all partners in its development (which were promised so, simply put)
Pepper price is also nonsense (ever so) however pepper now costs  next to nothing: devil: you have to take anyway about 800-1Billion each it is just a "normal" price if you want the "Best"  (we have/had the best , the Walrus, but my opinion is disputed  abroad;)) and we should want the same again (in which a small country can be in BIG, shipbuilding).

For Mr. De Roon:
-We Get  employment / job security in return, outside the fact that we remain in the top of the undersea area in the world (SSK) in terms of range, stealth and intelligense gathering, just to name a few. : P
Plus of course we remain a valued partner in these areas (there are more) for our allies. (You want to play at 't highest level then you got to have something to put on the table, simple)

For Mr. Grashoff
-On what are we going to spend this money (again to care?)
What material for peacekeeping flags for the schools crossing patrols(ok I exaggerate: big-smile:)? But what is used in peacekeeping missions, military equipment so I see no problem.
Besides if, for example (as already often mentioned) shipping To secure route or the ports to the other, it 's very useful if you will have boats (alone' t fact that he / or anyone who wants to disrupt the peace process knows / thinks there may be boats somewhere, ours or someone else will make sure that some plans will not be implemented or at least differently)

For Mr. Knops;
-You're not Going to have vessels of this type being build by someone else, if you're able to "do it yourself (I really hope) outside 's security, I mean you might as well say what you  can do and can not do (will be all  on the site of the foreign company, "look what we have built") Let's keep this particular a netherlands built(as much as possible), outside the fact that if you do this  you give a clear signal in terms of capabillety (most difficult branch of "sport", build submarines)

For my fellow forum mate Seaweed, idd I meant so(this was an answer to replace "real" boats with drones)
Cable on a (very) large role, then a Dutch ship somewhere off the coast (we pretend nothing happened); D
-Dropt From a Hercules ( we flew here by chance: big-smile:) outside 't whether the thing survived the fall
Oh crap another submarine now what? Oh wait, we still have Walrus let's just send these boats, (assuming that they are not replaced by the "real" boats).
-And Idd drones should be used in conjunction with real boats (if possible)

g, walter

ps Netherlands should build such a boat again as the Walrus of which the Americans (again) think "DAMN" We should have build this thing (or be able to) This is not a nonsense remark the US was charmed / impressed with the Walrus ( still are ) and you hear / read on foreign sites, the idea of ​​"we should build them again (ssk) by Rickover put away as" redundant "
« Last Edit: March 05, 2016, 09:25:07 by Karel Doorman »
Karel Doorman(Battle of the Java Sea)

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Offline Karel Doorman

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Re: Hello first(to all)and what i don't understand
« Reply #21 on: March 16, 2016, 12:13:00 »
future Submarine
On Wednesday, March 16th, 2016, the Committee for Defence studies the future of the Dutch submarine. Therefore, the committee will organize a technical briefing and a roundtable with experts from home and abroad.


This was to make out what the benefits are for the Netherlands by having subs.First steps in replacing them.

There were experts from Sweden,Norway,Germany,TNO and Marin(as well some admirals ret.)

When there's more news i will post it here.

gr,walter
Karel Doorman(Battle of the Java Sea)

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Re: Hello first(to all)and what i don't understand
« Reply #22 on: July 04, 2016, 08:34:54 »
Well it seems there are more ships to come(replacements)on the horizon,starting the view on what's needed:

MAST Europe 2016: Netherlands, Belgium move together on MCM, frigate replacements

Richard Scott, Amsterdam - IHS Jane's Navy International
22 June 2016
   
Key Points
A new stand-off MCM capability is planned from the mid-2020s
The replacement frigate class will be optimized for ASW
The Netherlands and Belgium are advancing bilateral study and scoping work as they look to collaborate on the replacement of their current M-frigates and Tripartite-class mine-countermeasures (MCM) vessels from the mid-2020s.

While neither programme has yet entered the acquisition phase, the two nations have now begun to define key platform and capability requirements together, Air Commodore Richard Laurijssen, director for weapon systems and agencies in the Netherlands Defence Materiel Organization (DMO), told the MAST Europe 2016 conference in Amsterdam on 21 June.


ps,
Belgium has said it wants 2 new frigates and 6 MCM vessels,hopefully the Netherlands will go for  4 frigates(badly needed,since we have to few ships right now to do all things) and 6 MCM vessels as well
« Last Edit: July 04, 2016, 10:42:39 by Karel Doorman »
Karel Doorman(Battle of the Java Sea)

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Re: Hello first(to all)and what i don't understand
« Reply #23 on: November 14, 2016, 09:01:28 »
So a follow on,on my last post(we've had to wait a while  for it   [Xp

Just on the news here in Belgium,where i live. [:D

Belgium and The Netherlands will replace the M-class and the MCM vessels(tripartite)on a 1 on 1 base,great news. :salute:   (with the hope of mine that maybe there will be 2 extra)

Next the Walrus -class,hope we'll hear something about these vessels(subs)too in the near future,in my mind these will probably be a A-26 variant(bigger,oceangoing,etc)

gr,walter

ps,Belgium allocated 2 billion to do so,which is(in my view)a bit optimistic(but hey,you never know.)
« Last Edit: November 14, 2016, 09:18:28 by Karel Doorman »
Karel Doorman(Battle of the Java Sea)

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Offline Colin P

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Re: Hello first(to all)and what i don't understand
« Reply #24 on: November 14, 2016, 10:23:03 »
LOL this is what got when i goggled Walrus Class submarine



On a more serious note https://rbth.com/news/2016/11/09/dutch-sub-tried-to-approach-russian-aircraft-carrier-group-in-mediterranean_646383
« Last Edit: November 14, 2016, 10:29:08 by Colin P »