Author Topic: Dutch ships and designs and the possibilities for Canada  (Read 39219 times)

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Offline Karel Doorman

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Re: Hello first(to all)and what i don't understand
« Reply #50 on: August 31, 2017, 07:37:01 »
For anyone who's interested,here's Saab's presentation on the A-26 and the possible variants.

There's a Oceanic Extended Range version(3000 tonns) wich is precisely "pointed" at what the Dutch Navy wants(1 question asks this and is confirmed.)Nice subs.

The seminar will be live-streamed on http://saab-seminar.creo.se/170831.

here 's the model range:(btw the "oceanic" variant is the normal A-26)

http://d1qka67o21nlgb.cloudfront.net/cache/assetslidethumb/49984-33986-1504157521.0.0.jpg

http://d1qka67o21nlgb.cloudfront.net/cache/assetslidethumb/49984-33985-1504157520.0.0.jpg

and the Vertical Launch option:

http://d1qka67o21nlgb.cloudfront.net/cache/assetslidethumb/49984-33984-1504157518.0.0.jpg

« Last Edit: August 31, 2017, 08:05:58 by Karel Doorman »
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Offline serger989

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Re: Dutch ships and designs and the possibilities for Canada
« Reply #51 on: August 31, 2017, 12:46:42 »
I was just reading the latest issue of CDR and they said Alion-Canada teamed up with DAMEN to supply Canada with the De Zeven Provincien Class ships. Alion is fairly unknown so it will be interesting if they are selected over the bigger names of the other bidders. I also wish Canada got 4x Karel Doorman JLSS ships :P Would have fulfilled the original JSS specs and 4 ship requirement. We could then ignore getting things like an amphibious assault ship because the 4 ships would have provided us with enough capability. Didn't know we had a shot to grab Walrus SSK's over the Oberons though, that would have been sweet! Though right now I am a huge fan of the Stirling AIP A26 SSK's.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2017, 12:49:48 by serger989 »

Offline Karel Doorman

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Re: Dutch ships and designs and the possibilities for Canada
« Reply #52 on: August 31, 2017, 13:36:04 »
I was just reading the latest issue of CDR and they said Alion-Canada teamed up with DAMEN to supply Canada with the De Zeven Provincien Class ships. Alion is fairly unknown so it will be interesting if they are selected over the bigger names of the other bidders. I also wish Canada got 4x Karel Doorman JLSS ships :P Would have fulfilled the original JSS specs and 4 ship requirement. We could then ignore getting things like an amphibious assault ship because the 4 ships would have provided us with enough capability. Didn't know we had a shot to grab Walrus SSK's over the Oberons though, that would have been sweet! Though right now I am a huge fan of the Stirling AIP A26 SSK's.

If so,Alion and Damen to supply new LCF's for Canada,they will probably be LCF(The De Zeven)2.0 or at least some adjustments( For example APAR 2.0,etc),since these ships are between 10 and 15 years old right now. ;)

It's been going on for so long for Canada,looking for replacements i mean.

Always hoped they would buy them(Canada),very capable ships,and 1 of the most beautiful to look at,know that's not important,but still. ;D

Well it looks like we're going to get those beauties(A-26 Oceanic Extended Range),but nothing is sure yet.(still hope tho)
« Last Edit: August 31, 2017, 13:42:15 by Karel Doorman »
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Offline Colin P

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Re: Dutch ships and designs and the possibilities for Canada
« Reply #53 on: August 31, 2017, 13:44:32 »

Offline Karel Doorman

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Re: Dutch ships and designs and the possibilities for Canada
« Reply #54 on: August 31, 2017, 13:56:51 »
Interesting comments on the radars on Wiki https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Zeven_Provinci%C3%ABn-class_frigate

What do you mean Colin,I-Band?(X-band offcourse),or do you mean something else?
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Offline serger989

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Re: Dutch ships and designs and the possibilities for Canada
« Reply #55 on: August 31, 2017, 15:31:54 »
If so,Alion and Damen to supply new LCF's for Canada,they will probably be LCF(The De Zeven)2.0 or at least some adjustments( For example APAR 2.0,etc),since these ships are between 10 and 15 years old right now. ;)

It's been going on for so long for Canada,looking for replacements i mean.

Always hoped they would buy them(Canada),very capable ships,and 1 of the most beautiful to look at,know that's not important,but still. ;D

Well it looks like we're going to get those beauties(A-26 Oceanic Extended Range),but nothing is sure yet.(still hope tho)

The Alion-DAMEN bid was revealed at CANSEC 2017 to a rather lukewarm response because of Alion's lesser name recognition. Regardless they seemed to have a strong pitch with the LCF saying no fundamental changes had to be made. They appear to be on point in delivering exactly what Canada needs, a MOTS design that is proven. - This is all sourced from CDR

I personally think the FREMM is the nicest to look at, but the De Zeven is beautiful as well :P The A-26's would be awesome for Canada because of their now blue water capability. The Netherlands is going to grab A-26's though? That would be pretty sweet.

Offline Colin P

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Re: Dutch ships and designs and the possibilities for Canada
« Reply #56 on: August 31, 2017, 15:53:28 »
What do you mean Colin,I-Band?(X-band offcourse),or do you mean something else?

That the AD radar struggled to pick up small surface or stationary targets until tweaked to lessen it's AD advantages.

Offline Karel Doorman

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Re: Dutch ships and designs and the possibilities for Canada
« Reply #57 on: August 31, 2017, 16:17:26 »
That the AD radar struggled to pick up small surface or stationary targets until tweaked to lessen it's AD advantages.

Ah ok,yep strange,but OTOH the radar is primarily used/envisioned/developed(AAW) to detect "fast movers" at a significant distance(i believe 500 kms now),and as you said(and stated in the article) it was possible to remedy this.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2017, 16:22:40 by Karel Doorman »
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Offline Karel Doorman

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Re: Dutch ships and designs and the possibilities for Canada
« Reply #58 on: August 31, 2017, 16:21:12 »
The Alion-DAMEN bid was revealed at CANSEC 2017 to a rather lukewarm response because of Alion's lesser name recognition. Regardless they seemed to have a strong pitch with the LCF saying no fundamental changes had to be made. They appear to be on point in delivering exactly what Canada needs, a MOTS design that is proven. - This is all sourced from CDR

I personally think the FREMM is the nicest to look at, but the De Zeven is beautiful as well :P The A-26's would be awesome for Canada because of their now blue water capability. The Netherlands is going to grab A-26's though? That would be pretty sweet.

As said if the RNLN(and parliament offcourse) will choose the A-26,it will be the Oceanic Extended Range version,with maybe a couple of "Damen twist"and RNLN "twist(adjustments),also interesting for Canada.(Range wise)

See post #50 for the pictures/renderings.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2017, 17:01:52 by Karel Doorman »
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Offline Underway

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Re: Dutch ships and designs and the possibilities for Canada
« Reply #59 on: August 31, 2017, 16:50:32 »
The Alion-DAMEN bid was revealed at CANSEC 2017 to a rather lukewarm response because of Alion's lesser name recognition. Regardless they seemed to have a strong pitch with the LCF saying no fundamental changes had to be made. They appear to be on point in delivering exactly what Canada needs, a MOTS design that is proven. - This is all sourced from CDR

Not exactly correct and leads to a misunderstanding of the bids.  Though the gov't said they wanted a "proven design" to the press what they actually asked for was a "mature design".  As was explained to me this was somewhere on the line between napkin sketch of a ship to ship fully operational.  Hence why the Type 26 was allowed to compete.  The design is complete and the steel is being cut.  There is also the requirement to have Canadian requirements for the ship added.  This means that whatever ship we get won't quite be MOTS.  It's looking like these are in the MOTS+ category.  Mature design modified.
 

Offline Karel Doorman

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Re: Dutch ships and designs and the possibilities for Canada
« Reply #60 on: August 31, 2017, 17:05:49 »
Not exactly correct and leads to a misunderstanding of the bids.  Though the gov't said they wanted a "proven design" to the press what they actually asked for was a "mature design".  As was explained to me this was somewhere on the line between napkin sketch of a ship to ship fully operational.  Hence why the Type 26 was allowed to compete.  The design is complete and the steel is being cut.  There is also the requirement to have Canadian requirements for the ship added.  This means that whatever ship we get won't quite be MOTS.  It's looking like these are in the MOTS+ category.  Mature design modified.
 

That was my thinking too,i mean that the City class(Type-26) is allowed to compete,and i think it will be a very nice ship,but very pricey tho.

I heared something of around 1.2 billion per ship;wow.

OTOH if it takes long enough maybe the M-class replacements(in final stages of design) can come in too(competition) >:D

They will be around the 600 million mark,way more affordable.Also ASW orientated.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2017, 17:09:15 by Karel Doorman »
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Offline Oldgateboatdriver

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Re: Dutch ships and designs and the possibilities for Canada
« Reply #61 on: September 01, 2017, 09:44:56 »
I was just reading the latest issue of CDR and they said Alion-Canada teamed up with DAMEN to supply Canada with the De Zeven Provincien Class ships. Alion is fairly unknown so it will be interesting if they are selected over the bigger names of the other bidders. I also wish Canada got 4x Karel Doorman JLSS ships :P Would have fulfilled the original JSS specs and 4 ship requirement. We could then ignore getting things like an amphibious assault ship because the 4 ships would have provided us with enough capability. Didn't know we had a shot to grab Walrus SSK's over the Oberons though, that would have been sweet! Though right now I am a huge fan of the Stirling AIP A26 SSK's.

You didn't know because we never did, Serger:

The Walrus' were designed, then the first laid down in 1979 and launched up to 1985. That is fifteen years after we acquired the "O-boats". We purchased the "O-boats" in 1964, with deliveries from 1965 to 1967.

The Walrus' were considered for the replacement of the "O-boats" when the project got underway in 1986. Then the Mulroney government Defence minister asked the Navy to consider nuclear boats, and we looked (and were lobbied) at the French Rubis class and the British Trafalgar class. That put looking at diesel boats on the back burner. Then the wall came down, and so did the economy, and those ambitious plans of the Mulroney government came crashing down in deficit reduction efforts. The Navy tried to resuscitate the submarine program, but by then, Chretien's Liberal's were in power and, being "un Ptit-gars de Shawinigan-Trudeauist", he couldn't care less about the Navy (too British still in his mind) and couldn't understand why you would spend that much money on a submarine Canada didn't need, in his mind. We were lucky to manage to get the Upholders in as stop gap - even if it ended costing much more than it should have (if he had, for instance, accepted to buy them immediately when they were decommissioned and offers first by the RN).

Also, the Dutch JSS's are for logistical support, not amphibious assault per se. They do not have the capability to carry troops to carry out the assault. Their facilities are dedicated to housing the logistics personnel and support personnel (such as medical staff, rear area repairs personnel, technicians, etc.), not the fighting troops. So they can't replace the actual amphibs. That's why the Dutch Navy has the Rotterdam class ships for those functions. And the Dutch JSS were looked at for the original Canadian JSS program, but the Navy found them unsuitable  because they did not have the fuel transport capacity that the RCN wanted.

Offline Karel Doorman

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Re: Dutch ships and designs and the possibilities for Canada
« Reply #62 on: September 01, 2017, 11:20:38 »
You didn't know because we never did, Serger:

The Walrus' were designed, then the first laid down in 1979 and launched up to 1985. That is fifteen years after we acquired the "O-boats". We purchased the "O-boats" in 1964, with deliveries from 1965 to 1967.

The Walrus' were considered for the replacement of the "O-boats" when the project got underway in 1986. Then the Mulroney government Defence minister asked the Navy to consider nuclear boats, and we looked (and were lobbied) at the French Rubis class and the British Trafalgar class. That put looking at diesel boats on the back burner. Then the wall came down, and so did the economy, and those ambitious plans of the Mulroney government came crashing down in deficit reduction efforts. The Navy tried to resuscitate the submarine program, but by then, Chretien's Liberal's were in power and, being "un Ptit-gars de Shawinigan-Trudeauist", he couldn't care less about the Navy (too British still in his mind) and couldn't understand why you would spend that much money on a submarine Canada didn't need, in his mind. We were lucky to manage to get the Upholders in as stop gap - even if it ended costing much more than it should have (if he had, for instance, accepted to buy them immediately when they were decommissioned and offers first by the RN).

Also, the Dutch JSS's are for logistical support, not amphibious assault per se. They do not have the capability to carry troops to carry out the assault. Their facilities are dedicated to housing the logistics personnel and support personnel (such as medical staff, rear area repairs personnel, technicians, etc.), not the fighting troops. So they can't replace the actual amphibs. That's why the Dutch Navy has the Rotterdam class ships for those functions. And the Dutch JSS were looked at for the original Canadian JSS program, but the Navy found them unsuitable  because they did not have the fuel transport capacity that the RCN wanted.

You're Correct OGBD,plus from what i heared,when the Canadians looked at  the Walrus they were considered to expensive(then) at 500 million per boat(there was no money),so it was the Upholder for 800 million(all 4 of them)or probably nothing.

JSS(dutch)is not a "real" AOR ship,it can take some stores(fuel,goods,etc)not enough when a "real" AOR ship is needed.

In the last year it also is shared with the Germans,so the RNLN has a real need for a additional AOR-ship,it's been looked at right now.

Maybe something in the order of this 1;(just a "simple tanker"),around the 300 million Euros mark.

http://products.damen.com/-/media/Products/Images/Clusters-groups/Naval/Logistic-Support-Vessel/Logistic-Support-Vessel-Replenisher-16000/Top-image/Logistic_Support_Vessel_Replenisher_16000.jpg?h=767&la=en&w=1300

Which is the LSV R16000.(15800 tonns,Range 10000 nm,about 18 knts,but Navy wants it to go a bit faster,around the 20 knts,is possible)

Measurements: 165,50  x 24,00 x 7,30 m
Crew: 43 + 116

This ship has a reasonable Hospital,48 places,and can be taken offboard.

Helidek for 1 NH90
Hangar for2 NH90's

Cargo deck or 135 lane meters
F76 (Marine Diesel)    5100 t
F44 (Kerosene) 425 t
Cargo Stores    360 m²
Ammo Stores    300 m²
« Last Edit: September 01, 2017, 11:36:17 by Karel Doorman »
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Offline serger989

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Re: Dutch ships and designs and the possibilities for Canada
« Reply #63 on: September 01, 2017, 11:57:15 »
You didn't know because we never did, Serger:

The Walrus' were designed, then the first laid down in 1979 and launched up to 1985. That is fifteen years after we acquired the "O-boats". We purchased the "O-boats" in 1964, with deliveries from 1965 to 1967.

The Walrus' were considered for the replacement of the "O-boats" when the project got underway in 1986. Then the Mulroney government Defence minister asked the Navy to consider nuclear boats, and we looked (and were lobbied) at the French Rubis class and the British Trafalgar class. That put looking at diesel boats on the back burner. Then the wall came down, and so did the economy, and those ambitious plans of the Mulroney government came crashing down in deficit reduction efforts. The Navy tried to resuscitate the submarine program, but by then, Chretien's Liberal's were in power and, being "un Ptit-gars de Shawinigan-Trudeauist", he couldn't care less about the Navy (too British still in his mind) and couldn't understand why you would spend that much money on a submarine Canada didn't need, in his mind. We were lucky to manage to get the Upholders in as stop gap - even if it ended costing much more than it should have (if he had, for instance, accepted to buy them immediately when they were decommissioned and offers first by the RN).

Also, the Dutch JSS's are for logistical support, not amphibious assault per se. They do not have the capability to carry troops to carry out the assault. Their facilities are dedicated to housing the logistics personnel and support personnel (such as medical staff, rear area repairs personnel, technicians, etc.), not the fighting troops. So they can't replace the actual amphibs. That's why the Dutch Navy has the Rotterdam class ships for those functions. And the Dutch JSS were looked at for the original Canadian JSS program, but the Navy found them unsuitable  because they did not have the fuel transport capacity that the RCN wanted.

Oh lord my apologies... I meant Upholder/Victoria... Since I have had Oberon models since I was a kid, they are on my mind often! The nuclear subs never would have happened as they were, the US would have blocked France or UK from providing us with the means if it came down to it. At which point we would have to start our own indigenous reactor from scratch I would imagine $$$$$$$$$. In terms of the Karel Doorman, I just checked and it's got about 1000+ less tonnes of fuel/water, but couldn't we have "Canadianized" it to a point where we could use it for small amphib operations? The deck space is large, the cargo space is large, it has a steel beach stern construction, so it can still use LCAV and LCU at-sea can it not? All I am saying is, am I wrong to think it would be more versatile than the upcoming Queenston. I am also running under the assumption we would have obtained the original planned 4 JSS. But I didn't know that it lacked the proper fuel capacity for true AOR capability, interesting!
« Last Edit: September 01, 2017, 12:44:10 by serger989 »

Offline Karel Doorman

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Re: Dutch ships and designs and the possibilities for Canada
« Reply #64 on: September 01, 2017, 12:43:49 »
Oh lord... I meant Upholder/Victoria... Since I have had Oberon models since I was a kid, they are on my mind often! The nuclear subs never would have happened as they were, the US would have blocked France or UK from providing us with the means if it came down to it. At which point we would have to start our own indigenous reactor from scratch I would imagine $$$$$$$$$. In terms of the Karel Doorman, I just checked and it's got about 1000+ less tonnes of fuel/water, but couldn't we have "Canadianized" it to a point where we could use it for small amphib operations? The deck space is large, the cargo space is large, it has a steel beach stern construction, so it can still use LCAV and LCU at-sea can it not? All I am saying is, am I wrong to think it would be more versatile than the upcoming Queenston. I am also running under the assumption we would have obtained the original planned 4 JSS. But I didn't know that it lacked the proper fuel capacity for true AOR capability, interesting!

Offcourse it's possible to Canadiaze the Dutch JSS,and yes you'll have a more versetile ship or ships(if 4)

Karel Doorman:(LCAV/LCU is idd possible)

http://navaltoday.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/JSS-Karel-Doorman-Brings-Aid-Supplies-to-Freetown-Sierra-Leone.jpg

http://navaltoday.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/HNLMS-Karel-Doorman-Sets-Sail-On-July-1.jpg

For maritime support the ship will have Two Replenishment-At-Sea masts, the holding capacity of approx 8000 m3 of fuel, more than 1000 m3 of helicopter fuel, approx 450 m3 of potable water and approx 400 tonnes of ammunition and other supplies.

The JLSS has 2,000 lane metres for transport of material such as tracked & wheeled vehicles or containers. She has an elevator and crane for up to 40 tons, a roll on/roll off facility for vehicles, and a steel beach stern construction for accommodating cargo transfer via landing craft. The ship is equipped with two LCVP's landing craft.

For sea-basing operations she will have large helicopter deck with landing spots for operating two Chinooks simultaneously, and a hangar with a storage capacity of up to 6 medium sized helicopters, including NH-90, CH-47F and AH-64D Apache.

The ship can accommodate up to 300 personnel, of which 159 are the ship's crew. She also has command rooms for war staffs and a large hospital facility with 20 treatment areas, and two surgery rooms. Modular flexibility allows configuration of temporary areas for evacuees or prisoners.

Positioned off shore, the ship is designed to act as a Sea Based Operations Platform supporting (amphibious) land forces with logistic support providing supplies and helicopter support (transport and attack).

Queenston Class will be less versetile but a better "true" AOR vessel.(from what i understand)

http://contrarian.ca/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/Chateauguay.jpg  (hope i've got the right one,lol)

The Joint Support Ship Project envisions several multi-role vessels capable of supporting the Royal Canadian Navy's warships at sea, as well as providing strategic sealift and some airlift for naval task groups or army operations. The vessels will have a multi-purpose covered deck with the ability to carry up to 10,000 tonnes of ship fuel, 1,300 tonnes of aviation fuel, 1,100 tonnes of ammunition as well as 1,000–1,500 lane metres of deck space for carrying vehicles and containerized cargo. The vessels will also have hospital facilities as well as a large helicopter deck with two landing spots, hangar space for four helicopters, and a roll-on/roll-off deck for vehicles onto a dock.[9]
« Last Edit: September 01, 2017, 13:02:10 by Karel Doorman »
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Offline Oldgateboatdriver

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Re: Dutch ships and designs and the possibilities for Canada
« Reply #65 on: September 01, 2017, 13:23:53 »
Don't worry about mixing up Oberon's and Upholders. We all make mistakes - and in any event it resulted in a teaching moment for those who are unaware of this situation, which is one of the great benefits of these fora.  [:D

However, concerning your last post: There is no comparison between the Karel Doorman and the Queenston class for the AOR function: You have to compare apples with apples: The KD can carry 8000 cubic meters of fuel, that is 7120 metric tons. The Q can carry 10000 metric tons, so basically 30% more. The difference is even greater for avgas: KD carries 1000 cubic meters, which is 820 metric tons to Q 1300 metric tons, or 50 % more. Cargo and ammo is even worse: KD = 400 tons, Q = 1100 tons.

As for flexibility, well Queenston will have some capability to carry army vehicles, though not as much as KD, some hospital facilities, though a little smaller than KD and the capacity to carry some extra support personnel and small number of troops, again even though not as much as KD.

However, in the Dutch Navy, they consider the KD as a support vessel for their amphibious forces first and the "AOR" role second. In Canada it's the reverse, which is logical as we have much greater distances to travel with our Task Forces to get to any place where we fight on sea, be it the Med., the Caribbean, the Persian Gulf, etc. The likelihood of the Queenston being required to support land operation when required is very small, whereas fuelling gas guzzling Destroyers and Frigates is going to be the Queenston's daily bread and butter.

Offline Karel Doorman

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Re: Dutch ships and designs and the possibilities for Canada
« Reply #66 on: September 01, 2017, 14:56:36 »
Don't worry about mixing up Oberon's and Upholders. We all make mistakes - and in any event it resulted in a teaching moment for those who are unaware of this situation, which is one of the great benefits of these fora.  [:D

However, concerning your last post: There is no comparison between the Karel Doorman and the Queenston class for the AOR function: You have to compare apples with apples: The KD can carry 8000 cubic meters of fuel, that is 7120 metric tons. The Q can carry 10000 metric tons, so basically 30% more. The difference is even greater for avgas: KD carries 1000 cubic meters, which is 820 metric tons to Q 1300 metric tons, or 50 % more. Cargo and ammo is even worse: KD = 400 tons, Q = 1100 tons.

As for flexibility, well Queenston will have some capability to carry army vehicles, though not as much as KD, some hospital facilities, though a little smaller than KD and the capacity to carry some extra support personnel and small number of troops, again even though not as much as KD.

However, in the Dutch Navy, they consider the KD as a support vessel for their amphibious forces first and the "AOR" role second. In Canada it's the reverse, which is logical as we have much greater distances to travel with our Task Forces to get to any place where we fight on sea, be it the Med., the Caribbean, the Persian Gulf, etc. The likelihood of the Queenston being required to support land operation when required is very small, whereas fuelling gas guzzling Destroyers and Frigates is going to be the Queenston's daily bread and butter.

Again true OGBD ,the KD is used primarily in the way you said. ;)

As for my statement about the cooperation with "Ze" Germans   >:D ,The Dutch Marines and the German "Seebattaillon work together(under Dutch Command) and use the(amongst other)the KD for exercises,so the problem arises for the availability of the KD for "her"AOR tasks,that's why the Navy is looking to order an additional ship,a true tanker.(just for the AOR part)
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Re: Dutch ships and designs and the possibilities for Canada
« Reply #67 on: September 01, 2017, 15:21:29 »
You could have 1 of these on each coast and an AOR, the JSS could support more of the coastal ops and arctic, while the AOR  do the deep sea stuff. Toss in the Asterix as a AOR relief ship and we have deep capabilities back into the RCN.   

Offline serger989

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Re: Dutch ships and designs and the possibilities for Canada
« Reply #68 on: September 01, 2017, 18:48:43 »
You could have 1 of these on each coast and an AOR, the JSS could support more of the coastal ops and arctic, while the AOR  do the deep sea stuff. Toss in the Asterix as a AOR relief ship and we have deep capabilities back into the RCN.

That's actually what my "fantasy" Canadian Navy looks like if we do not procure any amphibious assault ships, just seems like our style... I would love if Canada managed to get itself 18 surface combatants (6 for AAW), if the Dewolfs can replace the Kingstons, then 12 of em'! And 12 A-26 SSK's with 5 at-sea-replenishment capable ships (2 Queenstons, 2 Karel Doormans, 1 Asterix). I would also love if we could help our Northern communities grow and provide at least some more deep sea ports... Tuktoyaktuk, Cambridge Bay, Resolute, Rankin Inlet (Or re-invest in Churchill which will never happen), finish Nanisivik! Start Iqaluit! I would also love if we could start something similar to the Australian Marine Complex so we could centralize a lot of our industry on one of our coasts so that many companies can use the space for shipbuilding and keep business and tech healthy. But boots and so much more first. Sorry for that unnecessary rant of fantasy procurement excitement.

Do the Dutch have any LHD ship designs? I know Canada tried to procure those two Mistrals, and Naval Group is probably privately trying to pitch at least their more HADR minded Mistral 140 design to us and many others nations. I know DAMEN provides the Rotterdam LPD (is it an LPD?), what would the differences be in what we would require. Like say... A new battalion for over-seas rapid deployment, helicopter differences (would we need an attack helicopter at all?), how many would we need for an LHD vs LPD (Say if an LHD could hold 10x Cyclones total +the hangar, would we need to buy... 12 or more?), etc. Basically I am unaware of the fundamental differences in mission purpose and capability between the two. I know there are zero plans now to my knowledge for any amphibious assault ships, but I still think it would be possible if the global atmosphere changes a bit more (Northwest passage opening up, more submarine activity etc), as with getting more submarines.

Sorry for the lack of knowledge, I just love shipbuilding, infrastructure, warships, but I know diddly about the details.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2017, 18:54:06 by serger989 »

Offline Good2Golf

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Re: Dutch ships and designs and the possibilities for Canada
« Reply #69 on: September 03, 2017, 21:54:02 »
Perhaps if the Egyptians can't keep things together, the Mistralskis may come up on the market in the future?

Offline Colin P

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Re: Dutch ships and designs and the possibilities for Canada
« Reply #70 on: September 05, 2017, 13:38:06 »
I would not want them after they are finished with them.

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Re: Dutch ships and designs and the possibilities for Canada
« Reply #71 on: September 05, 2017, 16:47:47 »
Agreed, we should have bought them when we had the chance if we were to get them.

Offline Karel Doorman

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Re: Dutch ships and designs and the possibilities for Canada
« Reply #72 on: September 05, 2017, 17:03:12 »
That's actually what my "fantasy" Canadian Navy looks like if we do not procure any amphibious assault ships, just seems like our style... I would love if Canada managed to get itself 18 surface combatants (6 for AAW), if the Dewolfs can replace the Kingstons, then 12 of em'! And 12 A-26 SSK's with 5 at-sea-replenishment capable ships (2 Queenstons, 2 Karel Doormans, 1 Asterix). I would also love if we could help our Northern communities grow and provide at least some more deep sea ports... Tuktoyaktuk, Cambridge Bay, Resolute, Rankin Inlet (Or re-invest in Churchill which will never happen), finish Nanisivik! Start Iqaluit! I would also love if we could start something similar to the Australian Marine Complex so we could centralize a lot of our industry on one of our coasts so that many companies can use the space for shipbuilding and keep business and tech healthy. But boots and so much more first. Sorry for that unnecessary rant of fantasy procurement excitement.

Do the Dutch have any LHD ship designs? I know Canada tried to procure those two Mistrals, and Naval Group is probably privately trying to pitch at least their more HADR minded Mistral 140 design to us and many others nations. I know DAMEN provides the Rotterdam LPD (is it an LPD?), what would the differences be in what we would require. Like say... A new battalion for over-seas rapid deployment, helicopter differences (would we need an attack helicopter at all?), how many would we need for an LHD vs LPD (Say if an LHD could hold 10x Cyclones total +the hangar, would we need to buy... 12 or more?), etc. Basically I am unaware of the fundamental differences in mission purpose and capability between the two. I know there are zero plans now to my knowledge for any amphibious assault ships, but I still think it would be possible if the global atmosphere changes a bit more (Northwest passage opening up, more submarine activity etc), as with getting more submarines.

Sorry for the lack of knowledge, I just love shipbuilding, infrastructure, warships, but I know diddly about the details.

Don't think we or Damen allready have a LHD design,but if we asked Damen i'm sure they can come up with a design. ;)

R'dam is indeed an LPD as is the Johan de Witt.I know the KD can store the CH-53 in her hangar below decks.

HNLMS Johan de Witt:The ship is equipped with a large helicopter deck for helicopter operations and a dock for large landing craft. It can carry six NH 90 helicopters or four Chinook helicopters. It has a well dock for two landing craft utility and it carries four davit-launched LCVPs. The dock is wide enough to support two LCAC.

The vessel has an extra deck with rooms for command staff to support a battalion size operation. The ship has a complete Class II hospital, including an operation theatre and intensive care facilities. A surgical team can be stationed on board. The ship also has a desalination system enabling it to convert seawater into drinking water.

It is also equipped with pod propulsion to ensure the ship stays in position when sea basing.

Rotterdam Class Landing Platform Dock (LPD):The ship is operated by a crew of 124, including 13 officers. Accommodation is also provided for a fully equipped marine battalion or up to 613 troops. HrMs Rotterdam has facilities to transport 170 armoured personnel carriers, or 33 main battle tanks, plus docking facilities for up to six landing craft, for example six LCVP mk3, four LCU mk9 or four LCM 8 landing craft.

HrMs Rotterdam has extensive fully equipped hospital facilities with a medical treatment room, a medical operating theatre and a medical laboratory.

As for attack heli's,we operate the Apache wich will be upgraded:he Netherlands -­ Upgrade AH-64D APACHE Block I Helicopters to Block II

As for the subs,as said it seems we're going in the direction of th A-26ER,hope this helps.
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Offline Karel Doorman

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Re: Dutch ships and designs and the possibilities for Canada
« Reply #73 on: September 18, 2017, 11:48:55 »
This fall the first SMART-L MM/N will be delivered to the RNLN(SMART-L MM/N is known as the Smart-L Multi Mission/Naval version,or formerly known as the SMART-L EWC/ ELR)to replace the SMART-L on board of the LCF-class.

This radar will be able to detect targets(Satellites,ICBM)at a distance from at least 2000 kms.

So that will propel the Dutch ships in leading roles at providing support for naval NAVO/NATO squadrons(make them "Kings" of the Squadrons if i may call them that)

This means that the Dutch are the second nation,US was first,to be able to do that.

https://youtu.be/qtVh539mRng

Here's an article,sorry it's in Dutch,but you'll get the meaning.(i hope)

https://marineschepen.nl/dossiers/SMART-L-MM-N-radar-antwoord-Thales-op-dreiging-ballistische-raketten.html

As you may or may not be able to understand from this article(or know allready),in 2006,during the first tests,the Americans were blown away about the capabillities of the SMART-L and admitted that the Dutch(Thales or as it's formely known HSA,Hollandse Signaal Apparaten), are at least 6 years ahead of them in radar science/design.

HSA are the maincreators of the first 3-D radar system in the world on board a ship(an evolution of the "Broomstick radar on board the Tromp-class),The Goalkeeper and the SMART-L.(to name a few)

Dutch ships(LCF)will also take part in Formidable Shield 2017,which will start next week.

« Last Edit: September 18, 2017, 15:37:49 by Karel Doorman »
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Offline Colin P

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Re: Dutch ships and designs and the possibilities for Canada
« Reply #74 on: September 18, 2017, 13:32:33 »
No offense, but not the "prettiest" vessel I have seen, how is her sea keeping? Handling her with all that sail area forward must be interesting in high winds.