Author Topic: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"  (Read 41115 times)

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Offline MarkOttawa

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Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
« Reply #75 on: January 19, 2018, 16:21:17 »
Pretty sure gov't will find way to sole-source to Davie if they really want to:

Quote
Finnish company raises red flags over federal negotiations for Davie icebreakers

A Finnish company is questioning the Trudeau government’s decision to launch negotiations with Quebec shipyard Davie for the lease of four icebreakers without conducting a formal competition.

Helsinki-based Arctia Ltd. says it had expected a competition after the federal government asked shipowners in late 2016 to provide information about the icebreakers they had available for lease [see 2016 post on that below].

Prime Minister Justin Trudeau instead surprised many when he announced this week that the government would start talks with Davie, which has proposed to convert four icebreakers and lease them to the Canadian Coast Guard.

Trudeau’s announcement followed an intense lobbying campaign by the Quebec government, and came despite Davie’s central role in the RCMP’s investigation against suspended Vice-Admiral Mark Norman.

Arctia president Tero Vauraste says his company has six icebreakers readily available for the coast guard [emphasis added], and that holding a competition is the best way to ensure best value for Canadian taxpayers.

Vauraste says that while it is too early to say whether a deal between the government and Davie would violate procurement laws, the new free trade deal between Canada and the EU includes provisions on procurement.

Public Works and Procurement Canada did not immediately respond to requests for comment.
http://nationalpost.com/pmn/news-pmn/canada-news-pmn/finnish-company-raises-red-flags-over-federal-negotiations-for-davie-icebreakers

About Arctia position:

Quote
The Finnish shipowner Arctia Ltd. is moving forward to support Canada in icebreaking and towing services. The company has responded to the Canadian Government’s Request for Information and Industry Consultation for Interim Icebreaking and Towing Capability for the Canadian Coast Guard, and continues to follow the tendering process. Arctia’s purpose-built icebreaker fleet is promptly available, and can serve the Canadian industry and Arctic communities within weeks.



“We were quite surprised yesterday reading the news stating that negotiations will be launched with one interested supplier for the conversion and lease of existing supply vessels. We have understood that the open tender for interim icebreaking services is still open and does not cover any conversion costs“, states Tero Vauraste, the President and CEO of Arctia Ltd.

Arctia Ltd. participates in the Canadian Government’s tender for interim icebreaking solutions. The company is ready to charter its icebreakers to the Canadian Coast Guard and explore cooperative solutions to help Canada avoid the so-called icebreaker gap within the formal purchasing process. The Government’s public tender issued in November 2016 states that the Canadian Coast Guard may require additional icebreaking capacity provided by one (1) to five (5) icebreakers at various times over the next number of years.

    “We have extensive experience in the North American Arctic. All our icebreakers have diesel-electric propulsion and they are designed specifically for challenging and long-lasting icebreaking operations. They need no conversion for operations in the Canadian Arctic. This is a clear advantage compared to our competitors. We are the only operator in the world that can provide multiple powerful heavy and medium heavy polar class icebreakers promptly and on a commercial basis“, Vauraste explains.

Arctia Ltd. is a Finnish shipowner specialized in icebreaking, ice management and towing. The company currently has eight icebreakers in its fleet, including IB Polaris, the first Liquefied Natural Gas (LNG) powered icebreaker in the world. Finnish multipurpose icebreakers have been proven effective in the Canadian Arctic. Just this July, the Finnish MSV Nordica transited the Northwest Passage (NWP) from Vancouver, Canada, to Nuuk, Greenland, in 24 days with researchers and a Canadian Coast Guard officer on board. This transit set the record for the earliest crossing of the NWP. The Nordica now holds the records for both the earliest and latest season transits of the NWP.

Along with the Nordica, its sister vessel MSV Fennica has served in ice management tasks in the Beaufort and Chukchi Seas in 2007 and from 2012 to 2015. Arctia’s converted IB Otso has worked on the north-eastern coast of Greenland...
https://www.vesselfinder.com/news/11295-Arctia-Ltd-ready-to-support-Canada

2016:

Quote
Davie Québec Actually Going to Supply Some Icebreakers for Coast Guard?
https://cgai3ds.wordpress.com/2016/11/18/mark-collins-davie-quebec-actually-going-to-supply-some-icebreakers-for-coast-guard/

Mark
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Offline Not a Sig Op

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Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
« Reply #76 on: January 21, 2018, 18:42:06 »
http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/politics/david-icebreakers-shipyard-quebec-1.4494182

Looks like Davie is going to be supplying leased icebreakers.

My oppiniom, this will probably be a good thing.

They've got several ice breaker out of service right now, and some of the remainder aren't particularly reliable.
Remember troops, the minimum acceptable standard is still an acceptable standard.

Offline Not a Sig Op

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Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
« Reply #77 on: February 08, 2018, 21:25:12 »
CCGS Cygnus taking on water, enroute to St. John's...

http://vocm.com/news/coast-guard-vessel-en-route-to-st-johns-reportedly-taking-on-water/

Rumor is the Atlantic Kingfisher has reached her, and she's still headed to St. John's under her own power.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2018, 21:28:43 by Not a Sig Op »
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Online Oldgateboatdriver

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Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
« Reply #78 on: February 08, 2018, 21:45:25 »
Can't figure what could have gone wrong, for the life of me. She is barely 37 years old, and still has that new ship smell.  ;D

Seriously, though: She looked better in Fisheries Grey. Just my  :2c:

Offline MarkOttawa

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Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
« Reply #79 on: February 08, 2018, 21:52:46 »
Meanwhile in US (our fed governments are lamentable at looking after their core responsibilities--but USCG still needs funding from Congress):

Quote
RFP For New Coast Guard Heavy Icebreaker Expected This Month

The request for proposals to build the nation’s next generation heavy icebreaker is expected to be released by the end of the month, the U.S. Coast Guard commandant said on Thursday.

Speaking at the annual WEST 2018 conference, Adm. Paul Zukunft wouldn’t comment on how much money the fiscal year 2019 budget dedicates to the icebreaker, but did say, “It does provide funding for an icebreaker, at least in the draft, so that provides the confidence level that industry needs.”

Previous estimates put the cost for the first heavy icebreaker cost at about $1 billion.

Five vendors are expected to submit proposals for the first-in-class ship. Zukunft said ultimately the Coast Guard wants to buy six icebreakers – three heavy and three medium icebreakers. Zukunft has previously stated the new heave icebreaker is scheduled to launch in 2023.

“We haven’t built one in 40 years,” Zukunft said.
“It’s an investment in our shipbuilding industry here in the United States.”

The Coast Guard’s lone workable heavy icebreaker — USCGC Polar Star (WAGB-10) — spends about 300 days on missions or in a maintenance yard. A second heavy icebreaker, USCGC Polar Sea (WAGB-11), is used as a [parts donor to keep Polar Star seaworthy.

But, Zukunft acknowledged there’s been some debate about whether the Coast Guard is better off only buying one type of icebreaker, the heavies, and buying fewer of them – four instead of six.

“We know if you have a hot production line the unit costs come down, then you build a new product, that new product is more expensive than what you’re already building,” Zukunft said. “We’re still looking at six as the right number.”...
https://news.usni.org/2018/02/08/31241

Of course until now main use of USCG big icebreakers has usually been in Antarctic.

Whilst Seaspan is to build one (only) CCG heavy icebreaker sometime in mid- to late-2020s never never land.

Mark
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Offline Not a Sig Op

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Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
« Reply #80 on: February 08, 2018, 21:57:43 »
Can't figure what could have gone wrong, for the life of me. She is barely 37 years old, and still has that new ship smell.  ;D

Seriously, though: She looked better in Fisheries Grey. Just my  :2c:

Her step-sister ship, the CCGS Cape Roger, nearly sank at the wharf 5 years ago when she rusted through under her stern tubes.

It was arguably a stroke of good luck when it happened, she was scheduled to be on fisheries patrol, but ended up in the harbour after damage was found on her life boat.
Remember troops, the minimum acceptable standard is still an acceptable standard.

Offline Colin P

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Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
« Reply #81 on: February 09, 2018, 11:43:27 »
A whole host of chickens coming home to roost it seems. They could ask Seaspan to build a 4th OFSV to help fill the gaps.

Online Oldgateboatdriver

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Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
« Reply #82 on: February 09, 2018, 12:44:40 »
OFSV's are too slow and not really appropriate for fisheries enforcement on the Grand Banks.

Unfortunately, the OPV/MEMTV's are scheduled to be built after the Diefenbaker. Though, If there is a break in construction - and Seaspan claims there is after the third OFSV, then perhaps one or two of the OPV/MEMTV can be snuck in.

But please: Don't delay the JSS's or Diefenbaker as a result.

Offline Colin P

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Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
« Reply #83 on: February 09, 2018, 13:44:38 »
I doubt the Cygnus can reach here design speed of 16kts anymore, the OFSV are stated as 12.5kt max. Slow yes, but they are new and can conduct some of the tasks. Actaully building a 4th won't take to long as they are moving quickly on the 2 remaining OFSV and might even have layoffs till the next build. I would offer up anther idea, but the Hero boats kind of suck. They could buy back the John Jacobson (which the ccg should never had sold)

 

Offline Not a Sig Op

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Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
« Reply #84 on: February 09, 2018, 13:52:53 »
They could buy back the John Jacobson (which the ccg should never had sold)

Is it for sale? Even if it were, it's 28 years old.... anything past 30 years and you're pretty much at the end of the reliable service life for a vessel.

I realize the government is operating plenty of vessels older than 30 years right now, but most are in desperate need of replacement.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2018, 13:58:43 by Not a Sig Op »
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Offline Colin P

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Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
« Reply #85 on: February 09, 2018, 14:51:18 »
God you make me feel old, I still think of these as "newer"........ :'(

Online Oldgateboatdriver

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Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
« Reply #86 on: February 09, 2018, 16:27:12 »
I doubt the Cygnus can reach here design speed of 16kts anymore, the OFSV are stated as 12.5kt max. Slow yes, but they are new and can conduct some of the tasks. Actaully building a 4th won't take to long as they are moving quickly on the 2 remaining OFSV and might even have layoffs till the next build. I would offer up anther idea, but the Hero boats kind of suck. They could buy back the John Jacobson (which the ccg should never had sold)



Problem is, Colin, if you give the Coast Guard a new but less capable vessel to do a task "in the meantime", it will end up being the vessel doing that job until it is retired 45 years later and deprive the CG of a proper vessel to do the job. How long do you think the Coast Guard will retain those "interim" icebreakers Davie is about to refit of use by the Coast Guard? ;)

As slow as the current offshore vessels are on the East coast (16 to17 knots), you want the next generation to be better and faster, not slower and merely adapted for the task. If you go in the NSPS thread, I just finished a long post that touches on what I think should be done concerning the Coast Guard East coast patrol capabilities.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2018, 17:04:39 by Oldgateboatdriver »

Offline Colin P

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Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
« Reply #87 on: February 09, 2018, 17:46:34 »
17kts is plenty fast for a displacement vessel, trying to get past that, means climbing against and breaking through your own bow wave. Unless you go long and skinny, with thirsty engines like the USCG  Island Class Cutters.

Online Oldgateboatdriver

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Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
« Reply #88 on: February 09, 2018, 18:08:45 »
Tons of OPV designs out there in the 21 to 25 knots range without gas guzzling power curves.

But in any event, you don't need to go over 12-14 knots to get there and back. You need the extra speed when you are trying to catch someone in the act or engage in a reasonably short "hot-pursuit".

Anybody remembers the Turbot War?

Offline Not a Sig Op

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Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
« Reply #89 on: February 09, 2018, 18:34:54 »
God you make me feel old, I still think of these as "newer"........ :'(

They are "newer", that's why the coast guard is in this mess ;)

How long do you think the Coast Guard will retain those "interim" icebreakers Davie is about to refit of use by the Coast Guard? ;)

Don't knock the new lease boats yet... they may turn out to be a pretty good option... of course, it could turn out to be a terrible idea...

The Aiviq at least (I can't find any details on the others) should have another good 23 years of service in her... I'm guessing unless they've got problems during the lease period, they'll end up buying her outright... an ice-breaking AHTS is a pretty good "all-purpose" vessel for the coast guard... the Terry Fox has worked out well during her service life

Aside from being an ice breaker, she's also capable as an off-shore tug, and she'll likely have an oil recovery system installed, so a good option for off-shore pollution response, and she's capable of laying bouys where her draft permits.

She'll probably be a pig for fuel though, and they may have some difficulty in maintenance up-front, as it's several generations ahead of what they're used to.

It's got potential at least.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2018, 19:51:54 by Not a Sig Op »
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Online Oldgateboatdriver

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Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
« Reply #90 on: February 09, 2018, 19:56:33 »
Don't get me wrong, Not a Sig Op, I am not knocking the Davie interim vessels. I am hinting at the fact that when the Coast Guard gets them and they relieve some of the river icebreakers, the CG may just decide to keep them, retire the older icebreakers and conveniently forget to work towards getting actual future replacements - restarting the whole cycle of urgent replacement at a later date.

Offline Not a Sig Op

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Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
« Reply #91 on: February 09, 2018, 20:19:55 »
Absolutely agreed... wouldn't be shocked in the slightest if in 2046, we're reading about the Aiviq limping her way into port, with no replacement in sight.

Not much political will to plan for anything past a 4 year election cycle.

Would be pretty great if they can keep some of this ship-building momentum going...
« Last Edit: February 09, 2018, 20:23:49 by Not a Sig Op »
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Offline Colin P

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Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
« Reply #92 on: February 12, 2018, 16:49:14 »
Tons of OPV designs out there in the 21 to 25 knots range without gas guzzling power curves.

But in any event, you don't need to go over 12-14 knots to get there and back. You need the extra speed when you are trying to catch someone in the act or engage in a reasonably short "hot-pursuit".

Anybody remembers the Turbot War?

Most of the speedy designed patrol boats come with a cost, the Island Class the USCG used started suffering from cracking, because most fast patrol boats suffer from light scantlings, needed to keep them from being to thirsty. The reason the CG has not gone after fast patrol craft, is because they are generally 1 trick ponies and don't do weather well. The R class rolled like pigs.

Online Oldgateboatdriver

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Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
« Reply #93 on: February 13, 2018, 11:13:34 »
Colin, I am not talking about fast inshore boats like the Island class and R-boats "dinky-toys" you mention. I am talking about offshore vessels that can face the Grand banks, in the same 1500 to 2400 tons range as the current Coast Guard such vessels I mentioned above, but faster.

Quick examples (and all of these can be either Coast Guard or military versions as need be)[photos in order of mention]:

French L'Adroit, 1500 tons, 21 Kts;
Canadian design/New Zealand operated Otago, 1900 tons, 22 Kts;
Damen design 1800 Axebow, 1800 tons, 26 Kts;
British River class batch 2, 2200 tons, 24 Kts.


Offline Colin P

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Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
« Reply #94 on: February 13, 2018, 13:08:52 »
Nice looking boats, but the CCG management will look at them and say: "Other than burn fuel at painful rates, what else can they do?" They want it to drag gear for science collection, do some buoy tending, etc.

You be surprised where the USCG took their Island Class, including Alaska and talking to an XO on one that we tied up alongside, they went offshore as well. Also clutched in at idle was 9kts......

Offline MarkOttawa

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Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
« Reply #95 on: February 13, 2018, 14:16:15 »
Over to Congress for funding:

Quote
Coast Guard Budget Would Fund 1st New Heavy Icebreaker in 40 Years

The Coast Guard finds itself in a significantly different budget environment this year -- not only is the service requesting a sizeable bump in funding, the money would help pay for its first new heavy icebreaker in 40 years.

The service asked for a total of about $11.7 billion in funding for fiscal 2019, an increase of $979 million, or 8.4 percent, over its previous request, according to a document released Monday as part of President Donald Trump's budget request.

Last year, by comparison, the service faced a $1.3 billion cut before launching a massive and ultimately successful public relations campaign to underscore its importance to national security despite being the smallest of the U.S. military services and the only one to fall under the Department of Homeland Security rather than the Defense Department.

The additional money for the fiscal year beginning Oct. 1 would include $750 million for a new heavy icebreaker slated for delivery in 2023, according to the budget document. The funding would go toward building "the Nation's first new heavy Polar Icebreaker in over 40 years," it states.

The money "continues efforts to award a contract for detail design and construction to maintain scheduled delivery for a new icebreaker in 2023. Specifically, funding provides detail, design, long lead time materials, construction, program management office support, feasibility studies and maintaining the indicative design, cybersecurity planning, project resident office initiation, and Navy reimbursable technical support [emphasis added, more money will be needed to finish it]," the document continues. "This acquisition is recapitalizing the Coast Guard's heavy polar icebreaker fleet."

The Coast Guard wants to replace the barely seaworthy Polar Star for Arctic missions with a fleet of three heavy icebreakers. Last fall, it released a draft request for proposals from potential builders for a new heavy icebreaker design. The service also wants to build three medium icebreakers...
https://www.military.com/daily-news/2018/02/12/coast-guard-budget-would-fund-1st-new-heavy-icebreaker-40-years.html

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Online Oldgateboatdriver

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Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
« Reply #96 on: February 13, 2018, 14:23:05 »
Well, Colin, the management didn't ask that when they use Cape Roger, Cygnus, Leonard J. Cowley or the Grenfeld, because all they can and actually do is fisheries patrol and, secondarily, high seas SAR.

All four patrol vessels I propose above can do that and more - for starters they can all carry/operate a larger helicopter (medium as opposed to light, medium meaning EH101/NH90/Cormorant/Cyclone). All carry firefighting gear (only Grenfeld currently does); the Adroit, Damen product and Otago can carry containerized pollution control equipment and, all four carry larger and better Rhib's for fisheries boardings. The Damen product and Otago can carry mission containers at the back and have cranes to operate whatever they contain. The current four patrol vessels can't do that.

As for fuel consumption, in terms of actual fuel consumed per NM, they are all in the same range as the four current Coast Guard vessels, which is approx. 1.4 to 1.7 cu ft of fuel per Nautical Mile.

However, I think we are straying from the topic, here, which is the Coast Guard is going down, and in this case, more particularly, the East coast fisheries protection vessels are falling apart and need urgent replacing - now - not in 15 years.

« Last Edit: February 13, 2018, 14:25:55 by Oldgateboatdriver »

Offline Not a Sig Op

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Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
« Reply #97 on: February 13, 2018, 17:58:36 »
Fwiw...

Only the cygnus/cape roger/cowley are intended to perform fisheries patrol work on the grand banks.

Only the cowley can carry a helicopter, but it very seldom does.

The cygnus and roger have helidecks but no hanger.

The grenfel has never had an intended role, and the unofficial story, as i understand, is that it was bought to bail out the yard that built on spec for the oil industry but couldn't sell it (don't quote me on this part, thats just what I collected from grumblings)

It found its niche refueling light stations, built as a PSV, it had substantial cargo tanks for fuel, a large pump and liquid cargo manifold...

With the demise of diesel powered light stations, it really served no purpose.

Its not an ice breaker, so its limited for a lot of work the coast guard does.

Mostly it fills in for other vessels when they're under going maintenance, and spends a lot of time in St Johns harbour doing dedicated SAR standby.

They cold stacked it a few years ago, and were going to dispose of it, but there was a public out cry as the general public saw it as a loss of SAR assests (it was old junk slowly sinking in the dark)

When the Ann Harvey was damaged, they immediately invested a substantial amount to bring the Grenfel back into service, but it can't do everything the Harvey could.

If it were an anchor handler, or could break ice, or even if it wasn't 31, it might not be so bad, but the fact that its in service now is a testament to how desperately new ships are needed.

One huge asset many of the coast guard vessels have going for them is their miranda davits.

Its sort of a cross between a conventional single point luffing davit, and a skate davit.

They're able to launch and recover an FRC in much heavier weather than most ships can.

They're quite rough on the paint, but they're extremely good as far as FRC davits go.

With any luck, we'll see these on future vessels.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2018, 07:39:29 by Not a Sig Op »
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Offline Colin P

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Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
« Reply #98 on: February 14, 2018, 10:46:30 »
Frankly the 1100's are a great design all around and one of the few multi-task ships I have seen that really does well at all the tasks given to them. Speed is the only thing they don't do well. We should have slowly been churning out this design with minor modifications over the years and you would have a newer fleet and more common design allowing crews to cross deck easier.   

Offline Not a Sig Op

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Re: "Canadian Coast Guard Going Down"
« Reply #99 on: February 14, 2018, 14:04:53 »
Agreed, 1100 is a great design/concept for what it does.

A few new technology upgrades would make leaps and bounds on top of an already good basic vessel design and concept...

- DP1 conning system
- Automated machinery space
- Constant tension towing winch
- more reliable propulsion system
- modern crane

Some of those items are already planned for the midlife on the existing ships...

First step with the midlife program is the turn the Ann Harve back into a ship instead of a barge ;)
Remember troops, the minimum acceptable standard is still an acceptable standard.