Author Topic: Hospital ship for Canada  (Read 23668 times)

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Offline Oldgateboatdriver

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Re: Hospital ship for Canada
« Reply #25 on: May 09, 2016, 12:38:25 »
Colin: The Mistral's already have a full NATO level 3 hospital in them. No need for any kit. This is a facility equivalent to those for a 25,000 people small town. If you add to that the fact that an extra 100 beds from the accommodation facilities can be assigned to that hospital, it becomes equivalent to  an hospital for a 100,000 inhabitants city - again with no need for any kit.

Offline JLB50

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Re: Hospital ship for Canada
« Reply #26 on: May 09, 2016, 12:39:51 »
Do the Juan Carlos/Caberra-class ships have medical facilities equal to or greater than the Mistrals?

jollyjacktar

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Re: Hospital ship for Canada
« Reply #27 on: May 09, 2016, 12:41:08 »
Wow! Don't  storesmen know the value of brass bronze on the secondary market? It's not like anyone will come looking for one, just sayin'  ...   :temptation: :whistle:

FTFY

It's true that there are still parts lurking out there.  I recently disposed of some Annapolis class TAU bits and bobs.  They are at present on a massive hunt to find all these out dated things and get rid of them.  It's a money saving move, of course.

Offline George Wallace

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Re: Hospital ship for Canada
« Reply #28 on: May 09, 2016, 12:43:00 »
Colin: The Mistral's already have a full NATO level 3 hospital in them. No need for any kit. This is a facility equivalent to those for a 25,000 people small town. If you add to that the fact that an extra 100 beds from the accommodation facilities can be assigned to that hospital, it becomes equivalent to  an hospital for a 100,000 inhabitants city - again with no need for any kit.

A good selling point for the Mistral's; but that was a completely different topic that we saw passed over by the Government, and SMEs on Canada's Naval matters.
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Offline Colin P

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Re: Hospital ship for Canada
« Reply #29 on: May 09, 2016, 13:33:52 »
Colin: The Mistral's already have a full NATO level 3 hospital in them. No need for any kit. This is a facility equivalent to those for a 25,000 people small town. If you add to that the fact that an extra 100 beds from the accommodation facilities can be assigned to that hospital, it becomes equivalent to  an hospital for a 100,000 inhabitants city - again with no need for any kit.
Thanks I knew they had "large sickbay" but did not realize at that level.

Offline Not a Sig Op

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Re: Hospital ship for Canada
« Reply #30 on: May 09, 2016, 13:41:35 »
Orphan class costs a lot more per ship to maintain. Think set of plans. One per class to keep up to date. Same cost for an orphan as a full class, but per ship, the plans of the large class get divided by the number in the class. Same for stocks of IOR items that would otherwise restrict a ship alongside. Example: anchor. Sounds benign, but you are not allowed to sail without your full complement of anchors. Sure, you very, very  seldom need an anchor replaced, but when you do, it is extremely important to be able to replace immediately. So, emergency stocks are kept in store as long as a class of ships is in service. However, that means that for an orphan class, you may keep one in stock for the individual ship, while for a full class of, say, seven ships on one coast, you will only keep two in stock.
Comparing obsolete steam boats to a modern vessel on a lease really isn't an apt comparison.

Hopefully, if they're "doing it right", then they're making maintenance responsibility of Davies.

You can get pretty much any part for any boat you like anywhere in any civilized part of the world in 48 hours (72 for the less civilized parts, such as Africa, Russia and the Grand Banks of Newfoundland) if you're willing to throw the logistics behind it to get it there (depending on where you are you may need a few dollars for "diplomatic gifts" as well)

If you've got the leasing company handling maintenance, then you're not hamstrung by government purchasing, no one it the private world keeps spares of something as silly as an anchor, they buy it and fly it as needed, only critical and consumable spares are kept on board.

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Offline dapaterson

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Re: Hospital ship for Canada
« Reply #31 on: May 09, 2016, 13:43:14 »
FTFY

It's true that there are still parts lurking out there.  I recently disposed of some Annapolis class TAU bits and bobs.  They are at present on a massive hunt to find all these out dated things and get rid of them.  It's a money saving move, of course.

Given how much is spent on warehousing, it's something very necessary.  I recall a few years ago hearing about a massive collection of CF-5 drop tanks in a warehouse somewhere.  Holding spares for vessels or vehicles that are no longer in service makes little sense.
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jollyjacktar

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Re: Hospital ship for Canada
« Reply #32 on: May 09, 2016, 14:15:25 »
Given how much is spent on warehousing, it's something very necessary.  I recall a few years ago hearing about a massive collection of CF-5 drop tanks in a warehouse somewhere.  Holding spares for vessels or vehicles that are no longer in service makes little sense.

And that is exactly what's driving this project.  The monies spent on warehousing obsolete items is an anchor they need to get rid of.  Money saving, as I said and sensible, as you said.

Offline Colin P

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Re: Hospital ship for Canada
« Reply #33 on: May 09, 2016, 15:01:16 »
Nothing wrong with warehousing and storing equipment and parts. Knowing what your storing and doing it correctly is important. Look at the FN's, we could have stored them the way the Russians did and they be good for another 60 years. Same with bridging equipment, older radio's, webbing, etc. We were able to equip our SYEP program with webbing because we had squirreled away the 51 pattern. We have to much of a "toss and get rid of stuff" mentality and then suck wind when we realized that maybe we should not have gotten rid of X so quickly. I remember the story of the weatherships, Crown assets sold them off at bargain basement prices (with full fuel tanks). then we had to go back to the buyer to purchase the meteorological gear off of them to keep the remaining equipment going and the price was steep.

Offline George Wallace

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Re: Hospital ship for Canada
« Reply #34 on: May 09, 2016, 15:09:43 »
Nothing wrong with warehousing and storing equipment and parts. Knowing what your storing and doing it correctly is important. Look at the FN's, we could have stored them the way the Russians did and they be good for another 60 years. Same with bridging equipment, older radio's, webbing, etc. We were able to equip our SYEP program with webbing because we had squirreled away the 51 pattern. We have to much of a "toss and get rid of stuff" mentality and then suck wind when we realized that maybe we should not have gotten rid of X so quickly. I remember the story of the weatherships, Crown assets sold them off at bargain basement prices (with full fuel tanks). then we had to go back to the buyer to purchase the meteorological gear off of them to keep the remaining equipment going and the price was steep.

That can be done with certain items that are reusable as per the examples you gave of clothing articles; but for items that are no longer useful because the major equipment they would be used on have long disappeared from the inventories, it only takes up space and transforms your warehouse from a warehouse into a "museum for nick knacks".
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jollyjacktar

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Re: Hospital ship for Canada
« Reply #35 on: May 09, 2016, 15:21:59 »
All true with the parts I disposed of, they were obsolete,  honestly so and had no place in current systems.

As for the FN I once had assigned to me, she was really clapped out when I knew her.

Offline MedCorps

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Re: Hospital ship for Canada
« Reply #36 on: May 09, 2016, 17:34:02 »

I am not aware of any government run similar organization that provide such service, and for good reasons: For a government to go and operate in another country is much more complex to organize than a NGO. You need permission from the other state government, inter-government coordination, consideration for the existence or not of disputes between government, influence of ex-colonial status or not, or interference from other foreign government for their own purpose, etc. etc. You make the "mercy" ship military and you just doubled the complexity of making arrangements. (If you think that providing needed health care to its citizens takes priority over maintenance of at least the appearance of legitimately governing the country by overtly "lording-it" over the rich Western democracy government offering aid for the "presidents for life" of those "democracies", you are deluding yourself.)


The Chinese People's Liberation Army Navy has started doing this with some vigor using their new'ish Type 920 hospital ship the "Peace Ark".  It is being used for Global Medical Engagement & Diplomacy missions to further the foreign policy and influence of the Chinese government (whilst at the same time doing some good in the world). It is big... like 50 surgeries a day big!  You can find it in places close to us like say, Mexico, Barbados, Grenada, Peru, Cuba, Trinidad, Costa Rica and Jamaica as well as the Philippines, French Polynesia and Yemen.

MC

 

Offline Not a Sig Op

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Re: Hospital ship for Canada
« Reply #37 on: May 09, 2016, 18:38:47 »

 I remember the story of the weatherships, Crown assets sold them off at bargain basement prices (with full fuel tanks). then we had to go back to the buyer to purchase the meteorological gear off of them to keep the remaining equipment going and the price was steep.

I'm not sure if that's meant to illustrate the importance of hanging on to old junk or the ineffectualnes of government procurement?
« Last Edit: May 09, 2016, 18:41:59 by Not a Sig Op »
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Offline Oldgateboatdriver

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Re: Hospital ship for Canada
« Reply #38 on: May 09, 2016, 19:37:49 »
You're quite right MedCorps. I forgot about PLAN Peace Ark, though, while it visited Jamaica, Mexico and French Polynesia, it did not perform any medicine in those specific countries (and why would they as they are well served medically speaking, particularly Polynesia which as French territory has the same level of medical service as all French over sea territory and damn near same as continental France.

However, you do confirm my point, which is that when done by a government as opposed to a NGO, it becomes a matter of diplomacy and foreign affairs, not a mere medical matter anymore, and thus subject to the vagaries of international relations.

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Offline whiskey601

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Re: Hospital ship for Canada
« Reply #40 on: May 11, 2016, 14:31:25 »
somebody responded to that article quite forcefully ..

Offline Lumber

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Re: Hospital ship for Canada
« Reply #41 on: May 11, 2016, 14:44:23 »
Hospital ship for Canada articles coming out of the woodwork now.

http://espritdecorps.ca/why-doesnt-canada-have-military-hospital-ships/2016/5/10/why-doesnt-canada-have-a-military-hospital-ship?rq=hospital%20ship

I was really hoping that that article had some actual explanation as to why we don't. Instead, it just trudges on about the merits of having a hospital ships, make arguments about why it should be easy to have one, and the finishes off with little more than:

Quote
So, given the inherent value of a national asset like a hospital ship, its contribution to our ability to project soft power, its ability to contribute to Canadian international development and humanitarian response, and its affordability, why doesn’t Canada have a hospital ship?

I can think of a few reasons why Canada doesn't have one, and won't in the near future. We are having enough trouble simply getting CCG and RCN vessels built, we haven't even started talking about replacements for the subs, and you want to add one of these to the mix?

Ok, sure, you can buy some civilian vessel and reconfigure it (Davies will probably do it for cheap, too). However, we don't have a very large military with an over abundance of physicians. We would have to seriously deplete CF Health Svcs in order to man one of these thing.

Ok, so hire some more Doctors? Well, unlike Vietnam, Cambodia, Russia, or most of the other countries listed in the article, who's doctors make very little, Canadian doctors are among the 5 most highly paid physicians in the world.

Also, politics. I firmly believe that the Government of Canada is a massively risk averse organization. The though of sending down a ship full of doctors to perform surgeries must give our politicians nightmares. What if someone were to die under anesthesia? Or worse, due to a mistake by one of the doctors? Better to just give a bunch of money to an NGO and let them absorb the liability.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2016, 08:19:10 by Lumber »
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Offline Colin P

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Re: Hospital ship for Canada
« Reply #42 on: May 11, 2016, 15:15:11 »
Do up a PowerPoint with a fancy acronym and a picture of a Mistral painted white with a big red cross on the side and you could likely convince the Liberals and voters to buy 2 of them and they aren’t from the US either. 

Offline E.R. Campbell

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Re: Hospital ship for Canada
« Reply #43 on: May 12, 2016, 08:00:48 »
I'm with those who say that the Royal Canadian Navy/Canadian Forces has no need, none at all, for a hospital ship and it, building/leasing on for DND is just silly ...
.
.
.
.
... but Foreign Affairs (or is it Global Affairs?) ...

                   

...might find use for one and this government might be able to find the money for it (perhaps from the defence budget  ::) ).

It's too bad Bombardier doesn't build ships.  :o
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Offline Oldgateboatdriver

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Re: Hospital ship for Canada
« Reply #44 on: May 12, 2016, 08:32:55 »
It's too bad Bombardier doesn't build ships.  :o

They used to! At least their Canadair division did, before they acquired it.

They built HMCS BRAS D'OR. I bet you they still have a set of plans stuffed in a corner somewhere.

Now, that would be a hospital ship that you could deploy quickly!  OK, it would be too small - perhaps a new concept : an Ambulance ship.  [:D

Online Larry Strong

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Re: Hospital ship for Canada
« Reply #45 on: May 12, 2016, 10:29:57 »
The Chinese People's Liberation Army Navy has started doing this with some vigor using their new'ish Type 920 hospital ship the "Peace Ark".  It is being used for Global Medical Engagement & Diplomacy missions to further the foreign policy and influence of the Chinese government (whilst at the same time doing some good in the world). It is big... like 50 surgeries a day big!  You can find it in places close to us like say, Mexico, Barbados, Grenada, Peru, Cuba, Trinidad, Costa Rica and Jamaica as well as the Philippines, French Polynesia and Yemen.

MC

And the 2 US Hospital shis are doing the same with Operation Continuing Promise.....

Quote
......the ship deployed for five months providing medical and surgical services to nine locations in the Caribbean and Latin America - Jamaica, Peru, Ecuador, Colombia, El Salvador, Nicaragua, Guatemala, Costa Rica, and Haiti. During this mission, the ship's crew set up medical and surgical civil action program sites. These temporary medical clinics included primary care, internal medicine, obstetrics, and pediatric physicians as well as physical therapy, dental, radiology, laboratory, and pharmacy services. On board the ship general surgery, ophthalmology, oral and maxillofacial, and orthopedic surgeries were performed on pre-screened patients......

From Wiki.....


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Online Blackadder1916

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Re: Hospital ship for Canada
« Reply #46 on: May 15, 2016, 18:06:46 »
For those that may be interested, the latest episode of "Mighty Ships" on the Discovery Channel (today locally at 1900hr MT - in about an hour) will feature the USNS Comfort as it ". . . travels from Colombia and through the Panama Canal  on a mission of mercy to the tiny Caribbean island of Dominica . . . "
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Online Blackadder1916

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Re: Hospital ship for Canada
« Reply #47 on: May 20, 2016, 14:04:06 »
For those that may be interested, the latest episode of "Mighty Ships" on the Discovery Channel (today locally at 1900hr MT - in about an hour) will feature the USNS Comfort as it ". . . travels from Colombia and through the Panama Canal  on a mission of mercy to the tiny Caribbean island of Dominica . . . "

If you missed it when it was on the TV schedule, it is now available for viewing on the Discovery Channel site.
http://www.discovery.ca/Video?vid=871308

Found a few documents that may help better inform those who are interested in this subject.  The first two, from 1986, provide some background on the initial conversion and concept of operation of the US Navy's current hospital ships.  They seem familiar to me and I probably brought copies of one or both back from my late-1980s visit to the COMFORT and used them as reference in the service paper I wrote for my director. (Probably also used some as background in the development of a "ship's hospital" design for the Polar 8 icebreaker - the CCG requested our input for the medical facility that they included in that unrealized project.  Strange as it sounds, back then I was the staff officer responsible for ships medical facility planning - obviously NDHQ was as screwed up then as it is now.)


T-AH Hospital Ship General Information Manual
https://archive.org/details/TAHHospitalShipGeneralInformationManual

INTRODUCTION TO T-AH 19 HOSPITAL SHIP
https://archive.org/details/INTRODUCTIONTOTAH19HospitalShip
Quote
This document was prepared by the Medical Liaison Team at the Supervisor
of Shipbuilding, Conversion and Repair, . USN, (SUPSHIP) San Diego. It is designed
to familiarize new personnel with the general history, mission, and
physical characteristics of the T-AH 19 Class Hospital Ship. It is not a
statement of medical department or Navy pol icy am should not be represented
as such. Some of its information concerns general ship operation and details
but the primary thrust is toward the hospital functions and capabilities.

These concern possible replacement of MERCY and COMFORT.

http://www.mobilehospital.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/ADA554335.pdf
Naval Surface Warfare Center NSWCCD-CISD–2011/004 August 2011   Hospital Ship Replacement
This has an interesting acknowledgement among the pers who contributed.
Quote
The HSR design team would like to sincerely thank the following for guidance throughout the project:
. . .
LCdr Robert D’Eon NSWCCD 2202, Canadian Navy Liaison
. . . 

http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a614483.pdf
NSWCCD-80-2014/039 August 2014
Development of the Hospital Ship Replacement (HSR) Concept – Maximizing Capability & Affordability

And what the Chinese are doing with their hospital ship.
http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a552566.pdf
Red Crosses, Blue Water  Hospital Ships and China’s Expanding Naval Presence
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